Who wins? 2011 Mavs to 2019 Raptors

[tsherkin]

Thanks for the data.

Funny what nostalgia does for you lol. I remember that game 6 performance, but none of these others.

Yeah, I mean, particulars like that aren't what the normal mind recalls, right?

I remember my big takeaways from that run were a) how good Dirk was for the bulk of it and b) how well his teammates kept the team in it when he was struggling. Just like the 94 Rockets. It was that same sort of vibe, like SOMEONE was going to pull something out of the bag to keep them in it so Dirk could get it going. Like the aged corpse of Peja in his last season dusting off the Lakers.

And it's worth remembering just how incandescent Dirk was against LA and OKC; he BRUTALIZED them.

Also, I will never stop remembering that lefty BS scoop around Bosh to win the game in the Finals. That was mesmerizingly gorgeous. Slow-ass, old Dirk just old-man'g his way to victory.

[cupcakesnake]

Really fun matchups in this one.
- old man Marion guarding prime Kawhi.
- old man Jason Kidd and prime Lowry trying to outdo each other as crafty, hustling playmakers.
- Dirk being guarded by Marc Gasol on one possession, Kawhi Leonard the next.
- **** it, Lebron Slayer JJ Barea vs. New Dad FVV
- Caron Butler vs. OG Anunoby. Both these teams had really good starter-level small forwards miss the whole run!

Both these teams were deep, versatile, fully stocked with smart veterans who could contribute in multiple ways and guard multiple positions. It strikes me a little that the Raptors players are just a little closer to their primes that the Mavs were. This was Marc Gasol's last awesome year, but the Mavs feel like they were made out of those kinds of seasons. I think this becomes an all-out defensive battle (while Dirk and Kawhi bail out their team's offenses), and the Raptors are the scarier defensive team.

[Johnston]

The 2019 Raptors were stacked. Kawhi was still a top-3 player at the time. Lowry was a top-20 player still. Gasol was washed on offence but still as elite as anyone on defence. Siakam and FVV were coming into their own and Green and Ibaka were excellent role players. We won that title with OG out for the entire playoffs.

Don't forget about Norm!

[Iwasawitness]

Tbf, the mavs basically shut lebron down in 2011.

That was a very flawed team though. It was the big 3 surrounded by trash. No spacing. The Mavs focused solely on LeBron and let Wade go off. The Raptors had way better depth and supporting players.

Very true, but those mavs had a very good defensive core. Stopping lebron under any circumstance is nothing to sneeze at and its not like he had no help. He was in his prime playing next to two perennial all stars

The problem is Dallas can't incorporate the same defensive scheme they used against Miami. Toronto had a wide variety of shooters to keep that floor spread out at all times. Miami on the other hand had very little spacing.

[ShootersShoot]

That was a very flawed team though. It was the big 3 surrounded by trash. No spacing. The Mavs focused solely on LeBron and let Wade go off. The Raptors had way better depth and supporting players.

Very true, but those mavs had a very good defensive core. Stopping lebron under any circumstance is nothing to sneeze at and its not like he had no help. He was in his prime playing next to two perennial all stars

The problem is Dallas can't incorporate the same defensive scheme they used against Miami. Toronto had a wide variety of shooters to keep that floor spread out at all times. Miami on the other hand had very little spacing.

If they had the personnel to shut down lebron then they at least have a decent shot at limiting kawhi is all I am saying. Whether they would have or not we will never know. I do agree that the raps would be harder to defend than the heatles.

But yea the raps can just put kawhi on dirk and green on terry. So I am not as optimistic that the mavs could score on that team. 2019 raps were an incredible defensive team in their own right.

[Iwasawitness]

If they had the personnel to shut down lebron then they at least have a decent shot at limiting kawhi is all I am saying.

I mean... I guess?

2019 Kawhi Leonard was a fantastic shooter who could score from anywhere on the floor consistently. It's pretty hard to defend against something like that. You can potentially limit it but you're not going to shut him down, not with what Dallas had.

2011 LeBron was an extremely flawed player. Yes, he won back to back MVP's the years prior and was historically dominant, but his weaknesses when he first went to Miami never went away. People forget that what Dallas did to him in 2011 was the same thing Boston did to him in 2008 and 2010 (which is one of the reasons why I always laugh at clueless people who claim he choked). The difference here is that despite LeBron actually having all star help, the fit was actually worse and the spacing was horrid, and Dallas took full advantage of it. They had a terrific defensive center and lots of length all around. It was the perfect system to defend against someone like LeBron. The 2019 Raptors didn't have this spacing and depth issue.

There is a very clear difference between 2011 and 2012 LeBron. 2012 LeBron more than likely dominates this Dallas defense rather than be limited by it. He more than likely leads Miami to a win. Spacing just wouldn't be as big of an issue for someone who has a more refined jumper with an actual post game. But 2011 LeBron just wasn't built for that kind of defense. 2019 Kawhi is.

[ShootersShoot]

If they had the personnel to shut down lebron then they at least have a decent shot at limiting kawhi is all I am saying.

I mean... I guess?

2019 Kawhi Leonard was a fantastic shooter who could score from anywhere on the floor consistently. It's pretty hard to defend against something like that. You can potentially limit it but you're not going to shut him down, not with what Dallas had.

2011 LeBron was an extremely flawed player. Yes, he won back to back MVP's the years prior and was historically dominant, but his weaknesses when he first went to Miami never went away. People forget that what Dallas did to him in 2011 was the same thing Boston did to him in 2008 and 2010 (which is one of the reasons why I always laugh at clueless people who claim he choked). The difference here is that despite LeBron actually having all star help, the fit was actually worse and the spacing was horrid, and Dallas took full advantage of it. They had a terrific defensive center and lots of length all around. It was the perfect system to defend against someone like LeBron. The 2019 Raptors didn't have this spacing and depth issue.

There is a very clear difference between 2011 and 2012 LeBron. 2012 LeBron more than likely dominates this Dallas defense rather than be limited by it. He more than likely leads Miami to a win. Spacing just wouldn't be as big of an issue for someone who has a more refined jumper with an actual post game. But 2011 LeBron just wasn't built for that kind of defense. 2019 Kawhi is.

The 2019 raps are one of my favorite teams all time, and I am a warriors fan. I know how good they were.

[gp2015]

Kawhi slows Dirk down considerably and it's not close. Raptors in 5 with a very real possibility of a sweep. That Raptors team was a super team. One of the more well-rounded championship squads ever assembled. It would have beaten the Warriors whether they were healthy or not.

Lowry-FVV
OG-Green
Kawhi-Powell
Siakam
Ibaka-Gasol

OG wasn't who he is today back then but they were stacked. They still were a bounce away from a 2nd round loss though to a team whos big three had Ben Charmin Soft Simmons as a member so lets not get too crazy.

Actually no, we weren't. The game was tied 90-90. How do the Raptors lose the game while taking the last shot with the score tied?

I don't understand why people love to repeat this same BS line.

Also, Ben Simmons was an all star that year and the next year he was made All-NBA and All defensive teams. He was a very good player right before he became a bum.

That Sixers team was legit - Jimmy, Embiid, Simmons, Harris and Reddick.

[durden_tyler]

Raptors win was a fluke so picking the Mavs here.

[CodeBreaker]

2011 Mavs. Go re-watch their run and how they dismantle Kobe Lakers, KD Thunder, and the Heatles.

[CodeBreaker]

If they had the personnel to shut down lebron then they at least have a decent shot at limiting kawhi is all I am saying.

I mean... I guess?

2019 Kawhi Leonard was a fantastic shooter who could score from anywhere on the floor consistently. It's pretty hard to defend against something like that. You can potentially limit it but you're not going to shut him down, not with what Dallas had.

2011 LeBron was an extremely flawed player. Yes, he won back to back MVP's the years prior and was historically dominant, but his weaknesses when he first went to Miami never went away. People forget that what Dallas did to him in 2011 was the same thing Boston did to him in 2008 and 2010 (which is one of the reasons why I always laugh at clueless people who claim he choked). The difference here is that despite LeBron actually having all star help, the fit was actually worse and the spacing was horrid, and Dallas took full advantage of it. They had a terrific defensive center and lots of length all around. It was the perfect system to defend against someone like LeBron. The 2019 Raptors didn't have this spacing and depth issue.

There is a very clear difference between 2011 and 2012 LeBron. 2012 LeBron more than likely dominates this Dallas defense rather than be limited by it. He more than likely leads Miami to a win. Spacing just wouldn't be as big of an issue for someone who has a more refined jumper with an actual post game. But 2011 LeBron just wasn't built for that kind of defense. 2019 Kawhi is.

Acting like the Mavs only faced the Heat.

Spacing was not an issue for the firepowered OKC team, and the Mavs gentleman-swept them.
2011 KD was a better scorer than 2019 Kawhi.

[Johnny Firpo]

Interesting poll so far

Didn’t the Mavs go through the Trailblazers Thunder and Heat?

Raptors fans dominate realgm, so that could be one of the reasons. I'm honestly not sure how this would go, but I think it would be a close series.

[Los_29]

On paper you’d think the Raptors but the Mavs beat some very good teams that year. I still think no one was as good as the Sixers team that the Raptors beat. So I’d say the Raptors. Heat had the Big 3 but after that there was a huge drop off.

[Iwasawitness]

If they had the personnel to shut down lebron then they at least have a decent shot at limiting kawhi is all I am saying.

I mean... I guess?

2019 Kawhi Leonard was a fantastic shooter who could score from anywhere on the floor consistently. It's pretty hard to defend against something like that. You can potentially limit it but you're not going to shut him down, not with what Dallas had.

2011 LeBron was an extremely flawed player. Yes, he won back to back MVP's the years prior and was historically dominant, but his weaknesses when he first went to Miami never went away. People forget that what Dallas did to him in 2011 was the same thing Boston did to him in 2008 and 2010 (which is one of the reasons why I always laugh at clueless people who claim he choked). The difference here is that despite LeBron actually having all star help, the fit was actually worse and the spacing was horrid, and Dallas took full advantage of it. They had a terrific defensive center and lots of length all around. It was the perfect system to defend against someone like LeBron. The 2019 Raptors didn't have this spacing and depth issue.

There is a very clear difference between 2011 and 2012 LeBron. 2012 LeBron more than likely dominates this Dallas defense rather than be limited by it. He more than likely leads Miami to a win. Spacing just wouldn't be as big of an issue for someone who has a more refined jumper with an actual post game. But 2011 LeBron just wasn't built for that kind of defense. 2019 Kawhi is.

Acting like the Mavs only faced the Heat.

Spacing was not an issue for the firepowered OKC team, and the Mavs gentleman-swept them.
2011 KD was a better scorer than 2019 Kawhi.

Actually it was.

That team had a starting lineup consisting of Westbrook, Seph, Ibaka and Perkins, all of whom weren't floor spreaders.