Bulls extended AK/ME?

[kodo]

Is this Drew Stevens someone we think has insider info?
Not that I doubt this news, pretty much expected it.

[dougthonus]

Is this Drew Stevens someone we think has insider info?
Not that I doubt this news, pretty much expected it.

Saw another tweet that showed KC Johnson and Drew were talking about it on the CHSN podcast, which didn't explicitly say KC confirmed it, but sort of implies it.

[drosestruts]

Is there a GM that people feel built a winner without any luck?

Whether it be Pax or AKME, I so often see posters attribute the good things they did to luck.

Are other successful GMs not also beneficiaries of luck?

[Dan Z]

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2016/07/07/bulls-pursuit-of-dwyane-wade-began-with-2003-nba-draft/

From that article.

It says it's a myth. We have no idea what was really discussed.

The story that Paxson wouldn’t part with Donyell Marshall and thus killed the trade is as much a myth as the fact Wade played the Bulls in 2010 free agency.

talking to Toronto was real the not wanting to trade Donyell Marshall killing the trade wasn't true.

Isn't it a good thing that he was trying to trade up to get Wade...?

[DuckIII]

You fought the good fight of logic and reason, doug. Much appreciated. In some the hatred for John Paxson is a bottomless pit, and I don't debate it anymore in detail. As you just found out, its like WWI trench warfare. You won't accomplish anything no matter what you do.

[boozapalooza]

Painful while we wait for rumors/news, all we get is that the Bulls are extending their incompetent FO.

Hoping Reinsdorf is looking at that Lakers $10B sales price and starting to salivate…

[League Circles]

Idk, Pax basically inherited these pieces that mattered:

Tyson Chandler
Donyell Marshall
Jalen Rose
Jamal Crawford
Plus #7 in 2003 pick and Eddy Curry as generic assets

AK basically inherited:

WCJ
Lauri
Zach
Coby
#4 in 2020

It's actually not super obvious to me which group is better, though I understand that Lauri and Zach probably are rated higher by many than me. I think Jalen Rose and Tyson Chandler were probably the best players but weren't set up to succeed here.

It's obviously impossible to quantify how well or poorly we're positioned for the future right now.

It is super obvious which group was better.
Pax inherited one future starter, one future bench player, a three year max salary albatross, and a lower draft pick

AK inherited two future all stars, another future starter, another future rotation player, 1 year 8M in bad salary, and a better draft pick

If you're going to list Donyell Marshall as an asset, then Thad Young was also inherited by AK, (Young was later trade to Toronto for a 1st by SA after we used him as salary filler in a trade).

If you can't figure out which of those situations is different, I don't know what to tell you, but you shouldn't be trying to ever judge GMs ever. This is about as black and white as you are likely to find in an arena which often operates on pretty small margins between guys.

Perhaps you're forgetting that Tyson Chandler went on to become an All-Star, a defensive player of the year and the second best player on an NBA championship team. Jalen Rose was also the 2nd best player on a great team 2-3 years before we got him and wasn't unsalvageable IMO though I admit it worked out poorly and he was overpaid.

I'm also probably not nearly as high on Lauri as you, or Zach maybe. I'd easily take Tyson over everyone both execs inherited. Good point on Thad Young though.

[GetBuLLish]

I'd agree Pax was better but not nearly by the margin you suggest.

You'd be wrong, the margin is massive, not necessarily because Pax was so great, but because you are massively underselling how bad AK is.

First of all I'd suggest that they inherited relatively similar situations.

Definitely not true.
1st: He inherited Jalen Rose whom was on a max deal with 3 years left that was an albatross, AK didn't inherit anyone
2nd: AK inherited two future multi-time all-stars (LaVine, and Lauri) on good contracts, and 3 more recent lottery talents that would all go on to be starters, Pax inherited 0 future multi time all-stars.
3rd: Literally doing nothing and just waiting, AK would have had a better team than what he had by taking action. If Paxson did nothing, his team would have never won 20 games. One of them had to act to achieve their results, one of them acted and made things worse.

Next, Pax absolutely made some win-now moves early on - signing Scottie Pippen, hiring Skiles who is the quintessential win now coach, drafting old man Hinrich, trading Eddy Curry for Antonio Davis etc. Then Pax had mostly similarly mediocre results as AK has had (very near 500) other than Derrick Rose era for a few short years.

Except that his teams made the playoffs instead of miss, and his teams were young, flexible, easily shifted, and he didn't sit on assets and trade them too late over and over and over again. He didn't routinely negotiate himself and sign bad deals, and a gazillion other things.

Then of course you're conveniently ignoring the last several terrible years of his regime. If he gets credit for anything after 2009, he should get equal blame for everything up until AK was hired.

I was discussing the start of their careers relative to the extension discussion, but if you want to talk about the end. In the final five years GarPax had one more playoff win than AKME and were fired, but despite being fired when they left, the team had multiple guys who would go on to make at least two all-star teams in the next five years on cheap contracts, and another two players on rookie deals that would go on to be top 8 rotation guys, and 8M in total bad salary on the books.

So while they deserved to be fired for not making it click, that period they were fired for was radically better than the period we just extended AKME for.

This post is depressing in its accuracy.

[Dominator83]

Pax at least drafted a few all stars and got us to the conference finals.

Akme has not even won 2 playoff games in 6 years. This is moronic.

Took Pax 9 seasons to build a team that got to one conference final. And in those 9 seasons the Bulls won 50+ games once (the conference finals season). But the Bulls did go .500 or worse 6x in that time.

I'm not going to bother debating in detail who is worse between Pax and AK. Only the most virulent Pax hater would entertain the discussion. I'll just note that part of the reason we had 6 sub .500 seasons is because Paxson actually believed in rebuilding and was willing to blow up his teams in order to reach a higher goal.

Another big difference being, Pax, hell even Gar/Pax, was able to get us these same mediocre AKME squads WITHOUT gutting our future draft capital to do so. AKME burned THREE future 1st round picks just to get this annual play-in status.

[Dan Z]

I'm going to look on the bright side for two simple reasons. First, there is simply no logical reason to believe that a replacement would be an improvement. Second, having better job security probably increases the chances tad they will do wise long-term moves rather than dumb short-term moves.

Why couldn't they have a long term plan previously? Do you think their job security was in question the past few years? Seems to me that it wasn't and it's not like Reinsdorf to fire a GM after only a few years.

Reinsdorf bought the Bulls in 1985 and since that time they've had 4 GM's (5 if you include Rod Thorn who was there when Reinsdorf bought the team, but was fired). 4 GMs in 40 years.

[Dominator83]

Pax at least drafted a few all stars and got us to the conference finals.

Akme has not even won 2 playoff games in 6 years. This is moronic.

Took Pax 9 seasons to build a team that got to one conference final. And in those 9 seasons the Bulls won 50+ games once (the conference finals season). But the Bulls did go .500 or worse 6x in that time.

After one year, Pax got the Bulls into the playoffs 10 of the next 11 seasons and had only one season under .500. He also started with fewer assets and a worse cap situation and did so without making short term oriented moves.

AK has made the playoffs once in five years and has been below .500 in four out of five years while also trading forward future assets to try and win now with short term players.

It's not even a comparison as to which of these two did better. Pax was a high average to above average executive. AK is one of the worst in the league, in the clearly does not belong in this job and has displayed gross incompetence.

Also to add, Pax on top of it all, lost his biggest trade asset (Jay Williams) to a motorcycle crash right off the bat.

[Dominator83]

AK had one very good off season where he signed Ball, Demar, AC, also trading for Vuc was a good move at the time before the deadline even though it didn’t work out at the end.

Other than that though AK hasn’t had much success and a bit surprised that he got an extension after missing the playoffs so much when that has been his primary goal. Reinsdorfs must be very patient to continue working with someone who has failed.

I’m not going to say it’s a bad move to keep him longer, many fans here have been hard on AK. A lot of times you do need luck too. He was stuck with Lonzos injury, then Zach’s contract.Let’s see what he does in the next couple of years. Now is his chance to redeem himself.

When AKME inherited Zach, Zach still had 2 seasons left on a bargain contract

[Dominator83]

Took Pax 9 seasons to build a team that got to one conference final. And in those 9 seasons the Bulls won 50+ games once (the conference finals season). But the Bulls did go .500 or worse 6x in that time.

After one year, Pax got the Bulls into the playoffs 10 of the next 11 seasons and had only one season under .500. He also started with fewer assets and a worse cap situation and did so without making short term oriented moves.

AK has made the playoffs once in five years and has been below .500 in four out of five years while also trading forward future assets to try and win now with short term players.

It's not even a comparison as to which of these two did better. Pax was a high average to above average executive. AK is one of the worst in the league, in the clearly does not belong in this job and has displayed gross incompetence.

I'd agree Pax was better but not nearly by the margin you suggest. First of all I'd suggest that they inherited relatively similar situations. Next, Pax absolutely made some win-now moves early on - signing Scottie Pippen, hiring Skiles who is the quintessential win now coach, drafting old man Hinrich, trading Eddy Curry for Antonio Davis etc. Then Pax had mostly similarly mediocre results as AK has had (very near 500) other than Derrick Rose era for a few short years. Then of course you're conveniently ignoring the last several terrible years of his regime. If he gets credit for anything after 2009, he should get equal blame for everything up until AK was hired.

Skiles was not a win now coach. He was the quinessential "point A to point B" coach. Doug Collins/Mark Jackson style. Also, he drafted hinrich because the pick he had was too late to draft the stars. If you go and look, Hinrich actually was the best pick at that point in the draft. AKME on the other hand, burned the #4 pick on Patrick williams over Haliburton. Even worse considering that leading in, most Mocks had us taking Hali and Patrick was around #14-15. Pax after one year on the job, went out and traded to get us the #7 pick (Deng) while AKME gave away the #7 pick (Franz). Night and day. Also, the only thing Scottie coast was the MLE. Its not like Pax traded picks for him.

[Dominator83]

Kirk was a fine pick... The hallmark of Paxon... Never going to be mistaken for a #1 guy but wont be out of the league in 3 years. Kyle Korver was a better player so was West and maybe Boris Diaw... But at that time there was no one in that range that should of been taken over Kirk. Bulls probably could of traded up for Wade if they really wanted to, but that was to risky for play it safe Pax.

What makes you say they could've traded up for Wade? Miami wanted to trade the pick?

Because he has the power of hindsight and the Miami front office didn't, of course.

I also don't buy the rumors that Pax refused to trade Donyell Marshall to move up. I call BS. Toronto wasn't going to risk losing Bosh just to get Donyell freakin Marshall.

[Red8911]

AK had one very good off season where he signed Ball, Demar, AC, also trading for Vuc was a good move at the time before the deadline even though it didn’t work out at the end.

Other than that though AK hasn’t had much success and a bit surprised that he got an extension after missing the playoffs so much when that has been his primary goal. Reinsdorfs must be very patient to continue working with someone who has failed.

I’m not going to say it’s a bad move to keep him longer, many fans here have been hard on AK. A lot of times you do need luck too. He was stuck with Lonzos injury, then Zach’s contract.Let’s see what he does in the next couple of years. Now is his chance to redeem himself.

When AKME inherited Zach, Zach still had 2 seasons left on a bargain contract

Yes but at the time it was the right move to keep Zach and re sign him. If you look at it now sure the best move would have been to trade him earlier but again at the time AK actually did put together a pretty good roster to add to Zach. It’s just unfortunate that it didn’t work.

Let’s not forget Zach had some very good seasons with the Bulls including him playing all star basketball. He fell off fairly quickly but no one could have really predicted that he wouldn’t play on that level for long.

[Dan Z]

AK had one very good off season where he signed Ball, Demar, AC, also trading for Vuc was a good move at the time before the deadline even though it didn’t work out at the end.

Other than that though AK hasn’t had much success and a bit surprised that he got an extension after missing the playoffs so much when that has been his primary goal. Reinsdorfs must be very patient to continue working with someone who has failed.

I’m not going to say it’s a bad move to keep him longer, many fans here have been hard on AK. A lot of times you do need luck too. He was stuck with Lonzos injury, then Zach’s contract.Let’s see what he does in the next couple of years. Now is his chance to redeem himself.

When AKME inherited Zach, Zach still had 2 seasons left on a bargain contract

Yes but at the time it was the right move to keep Zach and re sign him. If you look at it now sure the best move would have been to trade him earlier but again at the time AK actually did put together a pretty good roster to add to Zach. It’s just unfortunate that it didn’t work.

Let’s not forget Zach had some very good seasons with the Bulls including him playing all star basketball. He fell off fairly quickly but no one could have really predicted that he wouldn’t play on that level for long.

I don't have a problem with AK re-signing Zach, but Zach's best years didn't lead the team anywhere and it never looked like that was going to change.

[Dominator83]

AK had one very good off season where he signed Ball, Demar, AC, also trading for Vuc was a good move at the time before the deadline even though it didn’t work out at the end.

Other than that though AK hasn’t had much success and a bit surprised that he got an extension after missing the playoffs so much when that has been his primary goal. Reinsdorfs must be very patient to continue working with someone who has failed.

I’m not going to say it’s a bad move to keep him longer, many fans here have been hard on AK. A lot of times you do need luck too. He was stuck with Lonzos injury, then Zach’s contract.Let’s see what he does in the next couple of years. Now is his chance to redeem himself.

When AKME inherited Zach, Zach still had 2 seasons left on a bargain contract

Yes but at the time it was the right move to keep Zach and re sign him. If you look at it now sure the best move would have been to trade him earlier but again at the time AK actually did put together a pretty good roster to add to Zach. It’s just unfortunate that it didn’t work.

Let’s not forget Zach had some very good seasons with the Bulls including him playing all star basketball. He fell off fairly quickly but no one could have really predicted that he wouldn’t play on that level for long.

Ehh. It really didn't take much foresight to see that while Zach was an amazing asset on a $19.5 million salary, he was gonna be a negative asset on a $45 million salary. Most of us here were calling it well before it happened.

[dice]

1) can we PLEASE stop conflating the paxson era and the garpax era?
2) are we really going to completely ignore that the "derrick rose rule" guy suffered catastrophic injury before his namesake new contract even started, ruining his career and leaving a rose-shaped hole in the salary cap for half a decade?
3) are we going to ignore that the bulls would have been contenders for who knows how long had that guy not gotten injured?

14:1 (terrific team)
5.5:1 (terrific)
12:1 (heart of a champion, classic 7 game triumph over brooklyn, derrick strings us along until MIA series before popping the balloon)
10:1 (derrick injured again, noah finishes MVP-4)
7:1 (jimmy breakout season, earning the middle initial of G, derrick struggles to stay healthy and decides to chuck up 5-6 threes a night at 28% clip)

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

16:1 (hoiball, noah chronic injury, derrick chronic suckage, both gone after missing playoffs)

that's 6 consecutive seasons that the bulls entered the season as contenders

the people defending artie are doing so because he gave them EXACTLY what they wanted - short-term improvement at the expense of proper team building - best odds to enter season? 40:1. and that off-broadway contention was short-lived

[Dominator83]

1) can we PLEASE stop conflating the paxson era and the garpax era?
2) are we really going to completely ignore that the "derrick rose rule" guy suffered catastrophic injury before his namesake new contract even started, ruining his career and leaving a rose-shaped hole in the salary cap for half a decade?
3) are we going to ignore that the bulls would have been contenders for who knows how long had that guy not gotten injured?

14:1 (terrific team)
5.5:1 (terrific)
12:1 (heart of a champion, classic 7 game triumph over brooklyn, derrick strings us along until MIA series before popping the balloon)
10:1 (derrick injured again, noah finishes MVP-4)
7:1 (jimmy breakout season, earning the middle initial of G, derrick struggles to stay healthy and decides to chuck up 5-6 threes a night at 28% clip)

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

16:1 (hoiball, noah chronic injury, derrick chronic suckage, both gone after missing playoffs)

that's 6 consecutive seasons that the bulls entered the season as contenders

the people defending artie are doing so because he gave them EXACTLY what they wanted - short-term improvement at the expense of proper team building - best odds to enter season? 40:1. and that fringe contention was short-lived

Yea after 2011, the biggest thing we all agreed was needed, was a shooting guard, and another guy besides Rose than can go and get Buckets. Jimmy solved both of those needs! That 2015 team should have been a superteam. Rose/Noah with breakout jimmy, with other great supporting pieces like Gasol, Taj, Niko, with Dunleavy filling the sharpshooter role. Of course it wasn't a superteam, because Rose/Noah were no longer those type of players due to their primes being cut short. But otherwise, thats a championship roster. and we didn't burn any future 1sts to build it! AKME can't even sniff a job like that.

[dice]

When AKME inherited Zach, Zach still had 2 seasons left on a bargain contract

Yes but at the time it was the right move to keep Zach and re sign him. If you look at it now sure the best move would have been to trade him earlier but again at the time AK actually did put together a pretty good roster to add to Zach. It’s just unfortunate that it didn’t work.

Let’s not forget Zach had some very good seasons with the Bulls including him playing all star basketball. He fell off fairly quickly but no one could have really predicted that he wouldn’t play on that level for long.

Ehh. It really didn't take much foresight to see that while Zach was an amazing asset on a $19.5 million salary, he was gonna be a negative asset on a $45 million salary. Most of us here were calling it well before it happened.

zach's peak was 27/5/5 on elite efficiency in 58 games (pre-derozan). this season was 23/4/4 on elite efficiency in 72 games. there hasn't been much falloff. he just somehow doesn't play winning basketball despite elite talent