BREAKING: Magic acquire Desmond Bane (KCP, Cole + 4 1st Round Picks + 1 1st Round Pick Swap)

[fendilim]

https://podcasts.apple.com/ph/podcast/the-old-man-and-the-three-with-jj-redick-and-tommy-alter/id1525281746?i=1000713523835

[bigdogdylan5]

I do not like watching this grizzlies team…. They whine so damn much. One TNT game where SVG was just eviscerating Ja for complaining and not getting back on D. JJJ is really bad about that too. Not a lot of ball movement either by anyone feels like Bane was only person interested in passing.

[zaymon]

The Magic didn’t need to spend 4 firsts on Ja, Trae, or LaMelo. None of those guys are actual facilitators. They are ball dominant engines and Orlando already has two of those guys that need the ball in their hands to do absolutely anything on the court.

Orlando needed a Fox, J.Murray, C.White, Quickley kind of guy. Didn’t happen.

They clearly have an agenda as to how they want this team to operate on offense. It remains to be seen if it will be possible at an extremely high level. It’s a serious gamble “playing moneyball with the point guard spot” as PRR puts it.

My fear is that IF this gamble doesn’t pay off (the system Weltman is enamored with), then his next objective is to trade Jalen Suggs to save his ass.

It’s really the only card he has left to play if he doesn’t throw Mosely under the bus. I don’t want to see Suggs be pilloried because Weltman lacked common sense in acquiring a point guard for the last 5 seasons up to now with this decision.

I have a lot of the same concerns as you and I have the same feeling about Paolo since Duke but about your alternatives I have a different opinion.
For me those guys are worse players or worse fit than Banes.
White is just not a good passer or playmaker. Murray is overpayed, injury prone and is not really reliable because he is only good every 3rd game since a few years. He isnt really that much of a playmaking upgrade to Banes too, if any.
Fox is a bad fit with suspect outside shooting.
Quickly is just a guy but probably a solid fit for us for maybe much lower cost but despite being a "PG" , he is probably worse at everything basketball related than Banes, including passing and playmaking and just a PG because of his height but not skills.

It was a overpay for us and I fear we still gonna see tons of bad iso ball and i still don't see how we gonna score efficient against half court playoff defenses with our current system but I think Banes still gives you more solutions in case he is used in the right way than most of those names, because all those guys are scoring combo guards or sg too.
Except Fox who is a bad fit shooting wise.

In the end our success hinge on Franz and Paolos development like before. If they doesn't become better shooters and playmakers we won't win anything but this would be the case with those guys too. I don't see them getting easier shots or having less isos with Murray or White or IQ next to them.

About Suggs, I can see that too but.. It's the logical thing to do because compared to the Caruso's of the world he just gets way too much money for the things he does so far in his career.
Personally I would trade Paolo before Suggs of 2 years a go because this player fits a lot of winning systems and I have big concerns that Paolos the roleplayer and tempo killing iso style, in combination with drive first offense but mediocre finishing will never be a winning formula. But we both know they will never trade him.

Where and how idea of Bane' playmaking being good started? And why? Because it's not grounded in reality or based on evidence. Whole bunch of his playmaking is them running like fools, trading buckets in open court without half court decision making , pick&roll or any set action.


Career 3,8 apg, 1,8 TO guy, who averaged 5,5 apg on 2,7 TO last year, but in year when Grizzlies ran literally worst offense in nba . Offensive rating of Grizzlies with Bane on the court (42 games - as PG ) = 108,9.
Magic offensive rating this year = 108,9


One of biggest issues with Grizzlies, with their Ja-Bane pairing was incredible inability to protect ball and not turn the ball over so much. Especially in playoffs.

Their 56 wins season happened in year when Bane was strict shooting guard with almost no on ball reps. Tyus Jones was doing lot of bench ball handling and playmaking and ball protection and apg/TO rate is his special.

After that year, each and every year Grizzlies were popping out as team that can't take care of ball and isn't generating good shots (but masks it with transition basketball and sky high pace).

Just some numbers
2022-23: 17# in assist percentage, 6th lowest TS
2023-24: 29# assist to TO rate, 30# offense, 29# TS, 28# TO%
2024-25: 15# Assist %, 17# assist to TO rate, 24# TO %

So how they had "three 20 ppg players" ? Well...pace. In past 5 years they had top 8 pace - 4 times. Led all nba in pace this year.

LIke, this season, without OTs, they scored 130 points- 20 times. Matter of fact they scored 155 points in 48 min

Magic scored 130 points or more 8 times.... In past 3 years. Combined.


I really don't think Bane is any better playmaker than some Simons. Maybe better rounded due better defense, but also costed like x500 more.

Truth is, between season when Grizzlies were excellent and Bane played as decoy and off ball guard, to last year when Grizzlies ran offense without many ( often any) picks, perdicated on cuts and drives off ball, often with 3 guards or 5 shooters, it is very hard to find any evidence of Bane being capable creating offense for others, in context of addition to a team where Banchero refuses to play off ball, Franz, Carter shooting issues and Suggs being TO waiting to happen on ball.

It's one of strangest trades, fit vise , in nba i could recall since Howard was paired with Gasol.

And that price tag makes me sick, in context of new CBA, 3 max contracts, future flexibility, non existing C depth, all with bonus kickers ESPECIALLY when you have maxed out guy who isn't even top 30 player. ( Ringer has him 47th lol)

I'm terrified that this trade will age like milk, as imo, Bane will improve roster but still not solve any of issues ( decision making, ball handling, pace control). LIke, guy went from team who had 8 players shooting +37% for 3 to a team where he is only shooter , but now he is asked to both: playmake and make shots and make right decisions, coming off playoffs where Caruso stole his soul.

Bane is not as bad on ball as you think. This season he had 23.3% usg, 23.6% ast, 13.3% tov. Last season without Ja 28.5% usg, 29.2% ast, 11.7% tov.
As a pick and roll ball handler he was around 70 percentile with Ja and in 83 percentile last season without Ja. He also drived around 10 times a game with over 52% fg%.

Suggs best season 27.5% usg, 21.6% ast, 16.2% tov

Derrick White best season 19.9% usg, 22.9% ast, 11.6% tov

Jrue Holiday averages for his carrier are 22.7% usg, 29.3% ast, 15.1% tov
Holiday best pnr season is in 83.9 percentile opposed to Bane 83.1 with Bane having 0.5 possesions more per game.

Nembhard 15.8.3% usg, 22.5% ast, 16.3% tov

Murray 27.9% usg, 31.2% ast, 10.5% tov

All in all Bane is not the worst playmaker of them all, best shooter and propably better than Murray and Nembhard defensively.

[VFX]

https://podcasts.apple.com/ph/podcast/the-old-man-and-the-three-with-jj-redick-and-tommy-alter/id1525281746?i=1000713523835

Who the **** is Tommy Alter and why does his opinion matter? Some producer and writer that has been working since 2018? Lol

Podcast is irrelevant without JJ now providing former player perspective. Good to hear from Bane I guess.

[SOUL]

https://podcasts.apple.com/ph/podcast/the-old-man-and-the-three-with-jj-redick-and-tommy-alter/id1525281746?i=1000713523835

Who the **** is Tommy Alter and why does his opinion matter? Some producer and writer that has been working since 2018? Lol

Podcast is irrelevant without JJ now providing former player perspective. Good to hear from Bane I guess.

To be fair, isn't that most podcasts? Just random people? lol. Even player podcasts can be hella boring, just gotta get the right mix of personality and guest.

[RookieStar]

Is Mike Miller why Paolo isn’t a league face yet? Needs to join a big agency?

Jordan brand was a connection through Crawford.

Because its only his 3rd year? And he hasn't even won a playoff series yet? And ORL not really a LA/NY level market?

Plus LBJ KD Curry still hasnt retired...

[VFX]

https://podcasts.apple.com/ph/podcast/the-old-man-and-the-three-with-jj-redick-and-tommy-alter/id1525281746?i=1000713523835

Who the **** is Tommy Alter and why does his opinion matter? Some producer and writer that has been working since 2018? Lol

Podcast is irrelevant without JJ now providing former player perspective. Good to hear from Bane I guess.

To be fair, isn't that most podcasts? Just random people? lol. Even player podcasts can be hella boring, just gotta get the right mix of personality and guest.

I mean.. Bill Simmons, Sam Vecenie, Ryen Russillo, and Zach Lowe have been at least doing this for 10-15+ years. It's not even like he's some draft expert, agent, or scout. What are his credentials? He produced some bad shows, his father is a guy that interviews people, and he's friends with JJ Redick?

The entire allure of that particular show was that JJ had some really good insightful basketball takes that gave people more nuanced background dynamics of how the league or teams operate. His weird leech friend isn't relevant enough to listen to. Even this particular episode was a rough listen.

[bigdogdylan5]

Bane is not as bad on ball as you think. This season he had 23.3% usg, 23.6% ast, 13.3% tov. Last season without Ja 28.5% usg, 29.2% ast, 11.7% tov.
As a pick and roll ball handler he was around 70 percentile with Ja and in 83 percentile last season without Ja. He also drived around 10 times a game with over 52% fg%.

Suggs best season 27.5% usg, 21.6% ast, 16.2% tov

Derrick White best season 19.9% usg, 22.9% ast, 11.6% tov

Jrue Holiday averages for his carrier are 22.7% usg, 29.3% ast, 15.1% tov
Holiday best pnr season is in 83.9 percentile opposed to Bane 83.1 with Bane having 0.5 possesions more per game.

Nembhard 15.8.3% usg, 22.5% ast, 16.3% tov

Murray 27.9% usg, 31.2% ast, 10.5% tov

All in all Bane is not the worst playmaker of them all, best shooter and propably better than Murray and Nembhard defensively.

Two things can be true at once. Desmond Bane is not a PG and if you try and make him one that is doing a disservice to his talent. Can he run some pick and roll absolutely and he is good at it. He is good at coming off and being a pull-up threat he is quick to attack and he is a quick decision maker with crisp passing. If he even gets cut off his mid range shot is great too. Where he struggles is when he gets too much on ball pressure. His handle is loose and it’s why Caruso and Dort ate his lunch but again they are two of the best defenders in the league and they’re in the other conference lol. Like using that in your argument is so disingenuous. Look if you believe Paolo and Franz are still ascending and they’re on track to be stars then this is a perfect fit home run trade. If you think Franz and Paolo are who they are then to you this will be doubling down on a flawed philosophy.

[Knightro]

Bane is absolutely not under any circumstances a point guard. So get that idea out of your heads if you have it.

But is a good playmaker for a shooting guard and a capable secondary playmaker overall.

[RichCollab]

Why isn’t he a modern day point guard?

[Bensational]

Paolo - Tatum
Franz - Brown
Bane - White
Suggs - JRue

We’re in a strong position to recreate Boston’s blueprint. Just need to split the difference better in the following -

Isaac - KP
(?) - Pritchard
WCJ - Horford
Goga - Kornet
Houstan - Hauser
AB - (?)
MoWag - (?)

This comparison will never die. I get it because it’s the most obvious correlation we have, but it’s just not accurate in terms of reality or how the game is played.

Jrue Holiday is an actual playmaking point guard. Hes averaged 6.5-8 assists his entire career as one. His picture would pop up in a dictionary if you searched “point guard”, but Chris Paul’s photo is already there. Suggs is just a younger Derrick White clone. Bane is the same thing with a different physical profile but more on the offense side. Those guys are nowhere close to having a track record or ability as playmakers on Jrue Holidays level.

The other massive difference here is Tatum and Paolo. They aren’t remotely the same player. Tatum plays out - in and Paolo play in - in. Since 2020 Tatum has taken 7-10 3pa per game on high efficiency. Paolo averages 4.5 for his career. Just a chasm of a gap in how those two guys score and how an entire offense is run from their tendencies. It’s just fairly obvious when watching either of these teams too.

Those two distinctions are huge and why comparing those blueprints is foolish. But sure, Orlando needs a scoring punch playmaking guard like Pritchard off the bench.

I really like the KP-Isaac comparison the best

both are tall and skinny...that's about it

That’s why I said “Just need to split the difference better in the following”, because there’s a difference between what we have and what Boston had. :shrug:

[eyriq]

Why isn’t he a modern day point guard?

Can he guard point guards?

[Knightro]

Why isn’t he a modern day point guard?

Lacks the ball handling.

[RookieStar]

Why isn’t he a modern day point guard?

He doesnt have the handles?

[VFX]

Why isn’t he a modern day point guard?

Doesn’t have the skillset.

Can’t break entire defenses off the dribble and averages 5 assists per game.

Any high usage starting nba player can average 5 assists per game. That’s what Franz and Paolo average on the highest usage possible.

[Bensational]

Paolo - Tatum
Franz - Brown
Bane - White
Suggs - JRue

We’re in a strong position to recreate Boston’s blueprint. Just need to split the difference better in the following -

Isaac - KP
(?) - Pritchard
WCJ - Horford
Goga - Kornet
Houstan - Hauser
AB - (?)
MoWag - (?)

This comparison will never die. I get it because it’s the most obvious correlation we have, but it’s just not accurate in terms of reality or how the game is played.

Jrue Holiday is an actual playmaking point guard. Hes averaged 6.5-8 assists his entire career as one. His picture would pop up in a dictionary if you searched “point guard”, but Chris Paul’s photo is already there. Suggs is just a younger Derrick White clone. Bane is the same thing with a different physical profile but more on the offense side. Those guys are nowhere close to having a track record or ability as playmakers on Jrue Holidays level.

The other massive difference here is Tatum and Paolo. They aren’t remotely the same player. Tatum plays out - in and Paolo play in - in. Since 2020 Tatum has taken 7-10 3pa per game on high efficiency. Paolo averages 4.5 for his career. Just a chasm of a gap in how those two guys score and how an entire offense is run from their tendencies. It’s just fairly obvious when watching either of these teams too.

Those two distinctions are huge and why comparing those blueprints is foolish. But sure, Orlando needs a scoring punch playmaking guard like Pritchard off the bench.

It’s the most accurate in so far as matching our distribution of roles.

JRue Holiday has not run PG for Boston as the primary offensive hub, Tatum and Brown have been doing that same as Paolo and Franz. JRue averaged basically the same APG as Black.

And Paolo doesn’t play “in in”, the guy starts 99% of possessions on the perimeter and creates from the outside attacking the paint same as Tatum. And check the comparison of their advanced stats, it’s almost a line for line match except for scoring efficiency, but we’re comparing a 3rd year player to a 8 year NBA champion and 2-time finalist.

The Boston blueprint is the most obvious for us to follow. It’s a proven winner. We’re amassing a collection of guys with similar comparable sets.

[Knightro]

Why isn’t he a modern day point guard?

Doesn’t have the skillset.

Can’t break entire defenses off the dribble and averages 5 assists per game.

Any high usage starting nba player can average 5 assists per game. That’s what Franz and Paolo average on the highest usage possible.

To be fair, I wouldn’t consider Bane to be high usage.

His USG% this past year was only 23.3% and he averaged 5.3 APG.

But obviously Memphis played at a very fast pace.

[basketballRob]

This is kind of funny. Perkins was talking about how happy Bane was to leave Memphis.

Read on Twitter

?s=19

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

[Knightro]

Paolo - Tatum
Franz - Brown
Bane - White
Suggs - JRue

We’re in a strong position to recreate Boston’s blueprint. Just need to split the difference better in the following -

Isaac - KP
(?) - Pritchard
WCJ - Horford
Goga - Kornet
Houstan - Hauser
AB - (?)
MoWag - (?)

This comparison will never die. I get it because it’s the most obvious correlation we have, but it’s just not accurate in terms of reality or how the game is played.

Jrue Holiday is an actual playmaking point guard. Hes averaged 6.5-8 assists his entire career as one. His picture would pop up in a dictionary if you searched “point guard”, but Chris Paul’s photo is already there. Suggs is just a younger Derrick White clone. Bane is the same thing with a different physical profile but more on the offense side. Those guys are nowhere close to having a track record or ability as playmakers on Jrue Holidays level.

The other massive difference here is Tatum and Paolo. They aren’t remotely the same player. Tatum plays out - in and Paolo play in - in. Since 2020 Tatum has taken 7-10 3pa per game on high efficiency. Paolo averages 4.5 for his career. Just a chasm of a gap in how those two guys score and how an entire offense is run from their tendencies. It’s just fairly obvious when watching either of these teams too.

Those two distinctions are huge and why comparing those blueprints is foolish. But sure, Orlando needs a scoring punch playmaking guard like Pritchard off the bench.

It’s the most accurate in so far as matching our distribution of roles.

JRue Holiday has not run PG for Boston as the primary offensive hub, Tatum and Brown have been doing that same as Paolo and Franz. JRue averaged basically the same APG as Black.

And Paolo doesn’t play “in in”, the guy starts 99% of possessions on the perimeter and creates from the outside attacking the paint same as Tatum. And check the comparison of their advanced stats, it’s almost a line for line match except for scoring efficiency, but we’re comparing a 3rd year player to a 8 year NBA champion and 2-time finalist.

The Boston blueprint is the most obvious for us to follow. It’s a proven winner. We’re amassing a collection of guys with similar comparable sets.

You’re taking what he’s saying far too literally.

The reason why the comparison with Boston isn’t a good one is because both Tatum and Brown are both high volume, high accuracy three point shooters and Paolo and Franz are not.

Like we can talk about the lack of shooting from the role players and the lack of playmaking overall, but until Paolo and Franz become better (and more willing, but that typically comes with better accuracy) three point shooters, it’s unlikely the Magic will have a top caliber offense.

[VFX]

Why isn’t he a modern day point guard?

Doesn’t have the skillset.

Can’t break entire defenses off the dribble and averages 5 assists per game.

Any high usage starting nba player can average 5 assists per game. That’s what Franz and Paolo average on the highest usage possible.

To be fair, I wouldn’t consider Bane to be high usage.

His USG% this past year was only 23.3% and he averaged 5.3 APG.

But obviously Memphis played at a very fast pace.

Good point. We will see if this ramps up as he will probably get a larger share of usg% if he’s used correctly.