A "hot take" (not mine) about POs physicality & whistle fix

[Rubios]

First, if you understand Spanish well enough, here we have some podcasts that IMO blow out of the water anything coming from the US. Or, at least, those I know. I'm not involved at all in any of them, so ask me for DM if you're interest.
Second: maybe because I'm a Spaniard, I have no dog in the League. I just love the game and I'm enjoying every bit of the historical -so far- SGA's Finals.

Well, the take started as a joke from one of the dudes but pretty soon they realized he could be onto something.
He said what Jokic should have done vs OKC is, anytime he was getting wrestled even before getting the ball or pushed and slapped in the arms once he got it, charging back -not in a violent, aggressive way, of course- to regain position.

He would've been fouled out mid 2Q, at best, every game. Like he was in the 2nd, but sooner.
And we'd have seen if the League was OK with one of his best players, in the "duel of MVPs" series, watching the games from the bench.


I actually think they have a point and kinda agree.
Thoughts?

[jbk1234]

What's going to happen is that a bunch of owners who have a ton of money tied up with players who won't fare well in a series as physical as these playoffs have been played will ask for a correction. Whether they get it or not is an open question, but guys like LaMelo, Trae, maybe even Wemby, would really struggle to compete in the playoffs and there have been huge financial commitments that have been, or will be made to them.

[Rubios]

Agree. But what about this particular, individual protest (that feels very Jokic-esque IMHO)?

[Xatticus]

Agree. But what about this particular, individual protest (that feels very Jokic-esque IMHO)?

It's nonsensical. The issue with arguing for foul calls against OKC defenders is that Jokic was using physicality to try to gain an advantage. You can't try to displace dudes and then claim that turnabout isn't fair play. The league has always allowed more physicality by defenders against players that try to establish physicality as an advantage. If they tightened up the calls, Jokic would indeed have fouled out early in the games.

[MrTribbiani]

There's nothing wrong with the physicality of the game. It's just as physical as it was back in the 90s. The people who act like the 90s was "so physical that you couldn't even drive to the hoop without getting clotheslined" are wrong as usual.

[MyTake_1]

Agree. But what about this particular, individual protest (that feels very Jokic-esque IMHO)?

It's nonsensical. The issue with arguing for foul calls against OKC defenders is that Jokic was using physicality to try to gain an advantage. You can't try to displace dudes and then claim that turnabout isn't fair play. The league has always allowed more physicality by defenders against players that try to establish physicality as an advantage. If they tightened up the calls, Jokic would indeed have fouled out early in the games.

The point is that iHart and Chet could not guard Jokic, so they put Dort and Caruso on him, not to guard him but to wrestle him. Do you think Caruso can guard Jokic?

[ScrantonBulls]

There's nothing wrong with the physicality of the game. It's just as physical as it was back in the 90s. The people who act like the 90s was "so physical that you couldn't even drive to the hoop without getting clotheslined" are wrong as usual.

If you go to a random finals game from the 90s, the modern playoffs are way more physical. It's honestly not close. I was surprised when I went back and watch some old finals games. It's way softer than I remember. Watch a few minutes in the game below. It's softer than baby ****. Today you have players bodying and handchecking the opponent 5 feet out from the 3 point line.

Watch on YouTube

[Xatticus]

Agree. But what about this particular, individual protest (that feels very Jokic-esque IMHO)?

It's nonsensical. The issue with arguing for foul calls against OKC defenders is that Jokic was using physicality to try to gain an advantage. You can't try to displace dudes and then claim that turnabout isn't fair play. The league has always allowed more physicality by defenders against players that try to establish physicality as an advantage. If they tightened up the calls, Jokic would indeed have fouled out early in the games.

The point is that iHart and Chet could not guard Jokic, so they put Dort and Caruso on him, not to guard him but to wrestle him. Do you think Caruso can guard Jokic?

They put Dort and Caruso on him to defend him as they would anyone else. They were picking him up at half court. He was trying displace OKC defenders to march into the paint to establish position. They contested. That's basketball. You aren't entitled to set up camp in the post.

[Patches Perry]

Agree. But what about this particular, individual protest (that feels very Jokic-esque IMHO)?

It's nonsensical. The issue with arguing for foul calls against OKC defenders is that Jokic was using physicality to try to gain an advantage. You can't try to displace dudes and then claim that turnabout isn't fair play. The league has always allowed more physicality by defenders against players that try to establish physicality as an advantage. If they tightened up the calls, Jokic would indeed have fouled out early in the games.

The point is that iHart and Chet could not guard Jokic, so they put Dort and Caruso on him, not to guard him but to wrestle him. Do you think Caruso can guard Jokic?

This just misunderstands why Caruso and Dort can be effective on Jokic in temporary situations. Same reason guys like Tony Allen and Chris Paul used to guard KD better than longer taller wings. Chet and IHart aren't really much faster than Jokic and try to play him straight up and challenge his shot up top. Jokic eats these guys up because he can play at his own pace, dogwalk them down and shoot over the top in rhythm without much problem. If Jokic can do that to Gobert (taller, longer, faster, great defensive instincts) then maybe matching Jokic big for big is not the best strategy and you have to get creative.

With Caruso/Dort, they're going to A) make the entry pass as difficult and risky as possible through quickness and staying in front and B) Making Jokic way less comfortable dribbling as Dort and Caruso are god level at poking away high dribbles especially from a 7 footer.

Between risky passes over the top that OKC is expert at intercepting, and guards that are expert at poking away high/loose dribbles, it makes it much harder for Jokic to get in optimal scoring position.

[MyTake_1]

Dort and Caruso can be effective on Jokic depending on how game is called. They are constantly holding and pushing him out of balance, no big guy would be allowed to do that, and neither should be smaller guys. They simply did not allow him to turn around. That's only good defense from OKC fan perspective. And to be honest OKC has taken the whole league by storm with this style, if game goes this way no one will watch. We shall see what happens next seasson but something tell me there has to be an adjustment and this style has to go away.

[Rubios]

(OP here) great insight and interesting digression in this thread. No subtext.

But my question, that almost no one addressed, was much more simpler.

Premise: besides allowing the small guys to be more physical than the bigs (nothing new here), I noticed the trend the League is promoting is favoring most proactive/aggressive defense vs the "classic" reactive/rim protection defense.

TL;DR Jokic (as a point center very handicapped by this whistle change in POs) just charges back proportionally -meaning "I know I weight 280+"- every time Caruso, Dort... pushed and slapped him. So he gets fouled out every game at... I dunno, 17 minutes?

Would the League be OK having one of his best players in "the battle of MVPs" watching pretty much the whole series from the bench?

Does it make sense to you? Or do you think A/ League would do nothing or B/ It would be an anti-competitive, selfish decision that would hurt his team just to make a point that wouldn't cause any immediate reaction from the League?

Thks again!

[meekrab]

What's going to happen is that a bunch of owners who have a ton of money tied up with players who won't fare well in a series as physical as these playoffs have been played will ask for a correction. Whether they get it or not is an open question, but guys like LaMelo, Trae, maybe even Wemby, would really struggle to compete in the playoffs and there have been huge financial commitments that have been, or will be made to them.

Those teams/owners should focus on getting to the playoffs first, I think.

[BelgradeNugget]

Jokic should have done what?

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

;t=20s

There is a reason Scott Foster returned from injury early to officiate 2 games in Nuggets-OKC series.
I have never heard anyone mentioned officiating in Bostons, Nuggets, GSWs championship runs. Now all the people are talking about officiating. Why?

[bledredwine]

It's a weird mixture where there's a ton of space, so everyone has to scurry contantly to prevent open shots,
and yet there isn't resistance/strength on defense, just more collisions and contact.

I honestly don't know what to think, but I like it a hell of a lot more than everyone jacking up open threes or getting easy layups.
Make no mistake; it's still easier than it has ever been to get near the rim. Of course, threes are worth more than twos.

Regardless, it's a step in the right direction, that's for sure.

[DoItALL9]

Jokic should have done what?

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

;t=20s

There is a reason Scott Foster returned from injury early to officiate 2 games in Nuggets-OKC series.
I have never heard anyone mentioned officiating in Bostons, Nuggets, GSWs championship runs. Now all the people are talking about officiating. Why?

Officiating was mentioned in 2021 in the Suns vs Bucks Finals, Scott Foster in particular.

[DoItALL9]

(OP here) great insight and interesting digression in this thread. No subtext.

But my question, that almost no one addressed, was much more simpler.

Premise: besides allowing the small guys to be more physical than the bigs (nothing new here), I noticed the trend the League is promoting is favoring most proactive/aggressive defense vs the "classic" reactive/rim protection defense.

TL;DR Jokic (as a point center very handicapped by this whistle change in POs) just charges back proportionally -meaning "I know I weight 280+"- every time Caruso, Dort... pushed and slapped him. So he gets fouled out every game at... I dunno, 17 minutes?

Would the League be OK having one of his best players in "the battle of MVPs" watching pretty much the whole series from the bench?

Does it make sense to you? Or do you think A/ League would do nothing or B/ It would be an anti-competitive, selfish decision that would hurt his team just to make a point that wouldn't cause any immediate reaction from the League?

Thks again!

It would be looked at as negatively as too much of a play of gamesmanship. The pundits would call him out for it very negatively.

I think it would work. I think the referee would adjust. It would be a bad look if he fouled out twice in the first half two games in a row. They wouldn't want that to happen.

He would face repercussions elsewhere. Some referees and people in the NBA could take it personally even if they let that part of theplan work. I think he would start getting less foul calls on drives, etc.

Eventually if he kept doing it I think the NBA, ESPN, etc would turn on him big-time and fans wouldn't support him or be as mad when he fouled out early. He'd be seen as a pouting whiner that can't handle the style of play in the States.

[mattg]

All that is going to happen is that owners are going to send all the footage of OKC in the playoffs where Dort and Caruso are mauling offensive players, grabbing jersey, holding, literally tackling at times, pushing guys every time they go to put the ball on the floor, hooking the legs of larger guys, all the stuff that is blatantly against the NBA rules for defense and that the NBA has already outlawed, and use it as a point of emphasis that that garbage isn't defense and cannot allowed to be called. They'll point to the precedent already set when the league focused on freedom of movement for Steph Curry and that what was allowed to happen in the playoffs this year is more egregious than anything Steph ever faced. Other owners can easily make the argument that if OKC wasn't mucking up games by molesting offensive players that TV ratings would be better and that fans don't want to see star players bear hugged by role players all game long

And then going forward Dort and Caruso won't be allowed to commit 100 fouls per game, they'll just quick whistle the over the top physicality to start games till the players adjust.