Around the NBA V: Live and Let Die

[vvoland]

So you think bane who avg 19/6/5 on 48/39/89 is in a different tier? Who struggles on defense himself with his trex arms which means he struggles closing out. Can’t really switch directions so he gets cooked by Austin reaves in 1v1 situations.

They’re actually very similar players.

He almost doubles him up in rebounds and assists and, again, drove winning while cam drove the tank. They are similar shooters, though I think Bane is better. Bane isn't a very good defender, but he's better than Cam. He's also a much better rebounder, t-rex arms and all. In virtually every category, bane is either slightly or significantly better than cam. I don't really see where it's close outside of spot up shooting.

In the aggregate that adds up to a much better player. At least, to me. Is there anything cam does better than bane? Other than lose and miss games, of course.

1 more rebound and 1 more assist is doubling up?

Cam was driving winning so much that the front office had to step in and bench him and trade Schroeder so they would stop winning.

Cam is actually a better shooter, more efficient as well because he takes more 3s at a position where it helps drag out a big. His shooting is much more impactful to winning than Bane's, based on volume and position.

Per 100 possessions, bane is 8.8 rebs and 7.8 assists. Cam is 6.8 and 5.4, respectively. Not quite double, but that's a 30-45% difference. That's very, very significant.

Cam doesn't shoot better than Bane in any statistical category that I saw. Just the basic stats: over his career, Bane averages 10 3pt attempts per 100. Cam averages 11. Cam shot 39% on those shots, Bane shot 42%. How is cam the better shooter?

That's before you get to the fact that Cam's shots are force fed to him and Bane self-creates quite a bit. One plays for a 50 win team where he's one of the main drivers of success, the other plays for a team that wins 25 games. Bane just fetched 4 FRPs and a swap while being on a max contract, the Nets can't get 2 FRPs for someone that was widely considered one of the better value contracts in the league.

Be honest, are you trolling ? Just a little?

[Jester_]

If he's clearly better, why don't the advanced stats show it?

Because he's not. Cam has gotten a lot better and was a top 50 player last year. TBH they're probably in the same tier as players.

Maybe. Or maybe because the advanced stats aren't the end-all, be-all.

This is what people who don't understand basketball say. There was a lot more of this back in the early 2010s when we had to defend Steph Curry from Monta Ellis supporters

Nobody said advanced stats are the "end all, be all". But if every advanced stat flies in the exact opposite direction of your absurd claim, your claim is probably wrong. Explain why those advanced stats show a different picture - if you can't, your position is bunk.

You can think Bane is better than Cam. To suggest he's on another tier is idiotic.

[vvoland]

Because he's not. Cam has gotten a lot better and was a top 50 player last year. TBH they're probably in the same tier as players.

Maybe. Or maybe because the advanced stats aren't the end-all, be-all.

This is what people who don't understand basketball say. There was a lot more of this back in the early 2010s when we had to defend Steph Curry from Monta Ellis supporters

Nobody said advanced stats are the "end all, be all". But if every advanced stat flies in the exact opposite direction of your absurd claim, your claim is probably wrong. Explain why those advanced stats show a different picture - if you can't, your position is bunk.

You can think Bane is better than Cam. To suggest he's on another tier is idiotic.

Every advanced stat? You mean just EPM and BPM? You may think my lack of respect for these metrics is a sign I don't know ball. There are those that think the advanced analytics crowd uses the numbers instead of watching actual basketball but I'm not one of those people.

Just for kicks, I looked up the EPM list for '24-'25. Lamelo higher than Brunson? Kevin Love higher than Lebron? Embiid with a top 6 number? I'm sorry, that doesn't seem to reflect reality.

BPM is similarly weird outside the top 5. Sabonis at 10? Jarret Allen over Mitchell or Jalen Williams? These are the numbers you claim tell the better story than watching the actual games? Ok.

Weird to see you so hung up on these stats considering Lauri has the same EPM as Tyler Herro and I thought Lauri finished like prime Shaq while shooting the 3 like prime Klay?

[Jester_]

Maybe. Or maybe because the advanced stats aren't the end-all, be-all.

This is what people who don't understand basketball say. There was a lot more of this back in the early 2010s when we had to defend Steph Curry from Monta Ellis supporters

Nobody said advanced stats are the "end all, be all". But if every advanced stat flies in the exact opposite direction of your absurd claim, your claim is probably wrong. Explain why those advanced stats show a different picture - if you can't, your position is bunk.

You can think Bane is better than Cam. To suggest he's on another tier is idiotic.

Every advanced stat? You mean just EPM and BPM? You may think my lack of respect for these metrics is a sign I don't know ball. There are those that think the advanced analytics crowd uses the numbers instead of watching actual basketball but I'm not one of those people.

Just for kicks, I looked up the EPM list for '24-'25. Lamelo higher than Brunson? Kevin Love higher than Lebron? Embiid with a top 6 number? I'm sorry, that doesn't seem to reflect reality.

BPM is similarly weird outside the top 5. Sabonis at 10? Jarret Allen over Mitchell or Jalen Williams? These are the numbers you claim tell the better story than watching the actual games? Ok.

Weird to see you so hung up on these stats considering Lauri has the same EPM as Tyler Herro and I thought Lauri finished like prime Shaq while shooting the 3 like prime Klay?

The fact you're stooping to that stupidity around Lauri shows you know you're wrong and are trying to dig out of your hole.

Picking random one-offs as some indictment against the stats themselves is what "m' eye test" losers have been doing for decades. I don't know why you think this is some enlightened argument.

You're wrong for the same reason every other anti-analytics luddite has always beenw rong. So stop dodging the argument and try and explain why all the stats show them as similar players if they're actually far apart as you claim - otherwise, keep quiet.

[Onus]

He almost doubles him up in rebounds and assists and, again, drove winning while cam drove the tank. They are similar shooters, though I think Bane is better. Bane isn't a very good defender, but he's better than Cam. He's also a much better rebounder, t-rex arms and all. In virtually every category, bane is either slightly or significantly better than cam. I don't really see where it's close outside of spot up shooting.

In the aggregate that adds up to a much better player. At least, to me. Is there anything cam does better than bane? Other than lose and miss games, of course.

1 more rebound and 1 more assist is doubling up?

Cam was driving winning so much that the front office had to step in and bench him and trade Schroeder so they would stop winning.

Cam is actually a better shooter, more efficient as well because he takes more 3s at a position where it helps drag out a big. His shooting is much more impactful to winning than Bane's, based on volume and position.

Per 100 possessions, bane is 8.8 rebs and 7.8 assists. Cam is 6.8 and 5.4, respectively. Not quite double, but that's a 30-45% difference. That's very, very significant.

Cam doesn't shoot better than Bane in any statistical category that I saw. Just the basic stats: over his career, Bane averages 10 3pt attempts per 100. Cam averages 11. Cam shot 39% on those shots, Bane shot 42%. How is cam the better shooter?

That's before you get to the fact that Cam's shots are force fed to him and Bane self-creates quite a bit. One plays for a 50 win team where he's one of the main drivers of success, the other plays for a team that wins 25 games. Bane just fetched 4 FRPs and a swap while being on a max contract, the Nets can't get 2 FRPs for someone that was widely considered one of the better value contracts in the league.

Be honest, are you trolling ? Just a little?

Ah so you’re taking career stats and not last years stats.

[vvoland]

1 more rebound and 1 more assist is doubling up?

Cam was driving winning so much that the front office had to step in and bench him and trade Schroeder so they would stop winning.

Cam is actually a better shooter, more efficient as well because he takes more 3s at a position where it helps drag out a big. His shooting is much more impactful to winning than Bane's, based on volume and position.

Per 100 possessions, bane is 8.8 rebs and 7.8 assists. Cam is 6.8 and 5.4, respectively. Not quite double, but that's a 30-45% difference. That's very, very significant.

Cam doesn't shoot better than Bane in any statistical category that I saw. Just the basic stats: over his career, Bane averages 10 3pt attempts per 100. Cam averages 11. Cam shot 39% on those shots, Bane shot 42%. How is cam the better shooter?

That's before you get to the fact that Cam's shots are force fed to him and Bane self-creates quite a bit. One plays for a 50 win team where he's one of the main drivers of success, the other plays for a team that wins 25 games. Bane just fetched 4 FRPs and a swap while being on a max contract, the Nets can't get 2 FRPs for someone that was widely considered one of the better value contracts in the league.

Be honest, are you trolling ? Just a little?

Ah so you’re taking career stats and not last years stats.

Just for shooting, not the rebounds or assists. I don't think last year's numbers tell a different story. I conceded from the jump that the shooting is where they're close, though I think bane is better. Haven't seen anything to indicate the opposite is true.

[vvoland]

This is what people who don't understand basketball say. There was a lot more of this back in the early 2010s when we had to defend Steph Curry from Monta Ellis supporters

Nobody said advanced stats are the "end all, be all". But if every advanced stat flies in the exact opposite direction of your absurd claim, your claim is probably wrong. Explain why those advanced stats show a different picture - if you can't, your position is bunk.

You can think Bane is better than Cam. To suggest he's on another tier is idiotic.

Every advanced stat? You mean just EPM and BPM? You may think my lack of respect for these metrics is a sign I don't know ball. There are those that think the advanced analytics crowd uses the numbers instead of watching actual basketball but I'm not one of those people.

Just for kicks, I looked up the EPM list for '24-'25. Lamelo higher than Brunson? Kevin Love higher than Lebron? Embiid with a top 6 number? I'm sorry, that doesn't seem to reflect reality.

BPM is similarly weird outside the top 5. Sabonis at 10? Jarret Allen over Mitchell or Jalen Williams? These are the numbers you claim tell the better story than watching the actual games? Ok.

Weird to see you so hung up on these stats considering Lauri has the same EPM as Tyler Herro and I thought Lauri finished like prime Shaq while shooting the 3 like prime Klay?

The fact you're stooping to that stupidity around Lauri shows you know you're wrong and are trying to dig out of your hole.

Picking random one-offs as some indictment against the stats themselves is what "m' eye test" losers have been doing for decades. I don't know why you think this is some enlightened argument.

You're wrong for the same reason every other anti-analytics luddite has always beenw rong. So stop dodging the argument and try and explain why all the stats show them as similar players if they're actually far apart as you claim - otherwise, keep quiet.

Lol, guess lauri isn't quite as good as you claimed he was.

You're trying to get me to debunk an advanced stat that you think matters. Not sure how that makes sense. A catch-all stat, at that. It's truly weird logic. My argument, since you're desperate for one, is that these catch-all metrics aren't good at ranking players - the main thing they were designed to do. As an example, I found massive inconsistencies in just the top 20-30.

Care to explain why this stat seems to value lamelo more than Brunson or love more than LeBron? Or why embiid had the 6th highest number in the league just last season? It's your stat, you should be able to defend it, right?

[vvoland]

KD to hou for green, Brooks, #10 this year, and 5 2nd rounders. Hou keeps all their best assets and didn't even give up jabari or shep. Great deal for hou, let's see if KD takes a discount on the extension

[whatisacenter]

KD to hou for green, Brooks, #10 this year, and 5 2nd rounders. Hou keeps all their best assets and didn't even give up jabari or shep. Great deal for hou, let's see if KD takes a discount on the extension

I actually like the trade for PHX.

KD is hella old, Jabari's playing time was already getting slashed and Shep couldn't even find the court this season.

Maybe PHX should have held out for another FRP but there were already articles that KD was limiting the trade market for him.

[EvanZ]

Steal for Houston. We have no chance of beating that team.

[watch1958]

Steal for Houston. We have no chance of beating that team.

Getting rid of Green and Brooks is a nice plus for Rockets. I may enjoy watching them play.

[donkeylips]

Surprised rockets didn’t have to give up jabari or Shepard in the trade

[cpower]

He almost doubles him up in rebounds and assists and, again, drove winning while cam drove the tank. They are similar shooters, though I think Bane is better. Bane isn't a very good defender, but he's better than Cam. He's also a much better rebounder, t-rex arms and all. In virtually every category, bane is either slightly or significantly better than cam. I don't really see where it's close outside of spot up shooting.

In the aggregate that adds up to a much better player. At least, to me. Is there anything cam does better than bane? Other than lose and miss games, of course.

1 more rebound and 1 more assist is doubling up?

Cam was driving winning so much that the front office had to step in and bench him and trade Schroeder so they would stop winning.

Cam is actually a better shooter, more efficient as well because he takes more 3s at a position where it helps drag out a big. His shooting is much more impactful to winning than Bane's, based on volume and position.

Per 100 possessions, bane is 8.8 rebs and 7.8 assists. Cam is 6.8 and 5.4, respectively. Not quite double, but that's a 30-45% difference. That's very, very significant.

Cam doesn't shoot better than Bane in any statistical category that I saw. Just the basic stats: over his career, Bane averages 10 3pt attempts per 100. Cam averages 11. Cam shot 39% on those shots, Bane shot 42%. How is cam the better shooter?

That's before you get to the fact that Cam's shots are force fed to him and Bane self-creates quite a bit. One plays for a 50 win team where he's one of the main drivers of success, the other plays for a team that wins 25 games. Bane just fetched 4 FRPs and a swap while being on a max contract, the Nets can't get 2 FRPs for someone that was widely considered one of the better value contracts in the league.

Be honest, are you trolling ? Just a little?

Bane is a good rebounder for his position no doubt but this number is inflated due to Edey being a beast at boxouts. His assist number is mainly due to him handling the ball much more often than CAM (68 per touches a game vs 59) and i dont think these are the things make him better in our system. We need size and shooting and CAM just checks the box better. CAM is also a better PS performer where Bane has like 2 really terrible PS seasons.

[wco81]

People are tongue-bathing the OKC Thunder now.

They could have broken the regular season record!

They had the all time greatest net rating!


It took 23 games and they had to have the officiating on their side for their "record" turnovers.

Will the NBA keep favoring their "GOAT defense?"

We'll see. While the playoffs have been good, the ratings, especially in the Finals took a big hit.

The Warriors approached 20 million a game during their runs, sometimes exceeding that figure. The first 5 games of these 2025 Finals, they never got over 10 million viewers.

Maybe interest spiked in games 6 and 7 because it was a competitive series.

Yeah they got all those "steals" to win the title after they stole the franchise from Seattle. Not a great message for the NBA to send.

[EvanZ]

I'ts ok to give OKC their flowers. They don't take anything away from our dynasty. Presti did an incredible job building that team from scratch in such a short rebuild given how so many teams never do it at all. I mean you look at Chet, Jalen Williams and Cason all immediately contributing as Lottery picks. It's ridiculous. He missed on others (Ousmane, Poku) but that's just how his shotgun approach works. And the Pacers also deserve heaps of praise. I have nothing but respect for what these two franchises did.

[Onus]

I'ts ok to give OKC their flowers. They don't take anything away from our dynasty. Presti did an incredible job building that team from scratch in such a short rebuild given how so many teams never do it at all. I mean you look at Chet, Jalen Williams and Cason all immediately contributing as Lottery picks. It's ridiculous. He missed on others (Ousmane, Poku) but that's just how his shotgun approach works. And the Pacers also deserve heaps of praise. I have nothing but respect for what these two franchises did.

I think it's funny that everyone is so worried about size and the thunder really just played 6'5'' Jalen Williams at center for stretches throughout this playoff run. They play a bunch of 6'6'' and under players throughout their lineup. Speed, IQ, physicality and hacking can lead to a generational defense.

[EvanZ]

I mean it helps having Chet and/or Hartenstein backing them up haha. I wanted Hartenstein so bad a few years back before the Knicks picked him up. That's a big What If moment for us.

[Onus]

I mean it helps having Chet and/or Hartenstein backing them up haha. I wanted Hartenstein so bad a few years back before the Knicks picked him up. That's a big What If moment for us.

Yea ihart was a great pick up for sure and Chet being capable of playing the 4 or the 5 is great. But their speed on defense, generating steals is what made them generational.

I'd agree that we need another rim protector since TJD and Looney haven't been good.

[EvanZ]

What is crazy is that we had the 7th best DRTG in the league...But that was only good enough for 5th best in the West!

[vvoland]

1 more rebound and 1 more assist is doubling up?

Cam was driving winning so much that the front office had to step in and bench him and trade Schroeder so they would stop winning.

Cam is actually a better shooter, more efficient as well because he takes more 3s at a position where it helps drag out a big. His shooting is much more impactful to winning than Bane's, based on volume and position.

Per 100 possessions, bane is 8.8 rebs and 7.8 assists. Cam is 6.8 and 5.4, respectively. Not quite double, but that's a 30-45% difference. That's very, very significant.

Cam doesn't shoot better than Bane in any statistical category that I saw. Just the basic stats: over his career, Bane averages 10 3pt attempts per 100. Cam averages 11. Cam shot 39% on those shots, Bane shot 42%. How is cam the better shooter?

That's before you get to the fact that Cam's shots are force fed to him and Bane self-creates quite a bit. One plays for a 50 win team where he's one of the main drivers of success, the other plays for a team that wins 25 games. Bane just fetched 4 FRPs and a swap while being on a max contract, the Nets can't get 2 FRPs for someone that was widely considered one of the better value contracts in the league.

Be honest, are you trolling ? Just a little?

Bane is a good rebounder for his position no doubt but this number is inflated due to Edey being a beast at boxouts. His assist number is mainly due to him handling the ball much more often than CAM (68 per touches a game vs 59) and i dont think these are the things make him better in our system. We need size and shooting and CAM just checks the box better. CAM is also a better PS performer where Bane has like 2 really terrible PS seasons.

Good call on Edey, didn't see how much he had an impact on bane's rebounding (or maybe there were other factors this year). He's still a better rebounder and defender so I'm not sure how Cam being bigger, on paper, actually helps. I also think Bane is a better shooter, especially off movement and off the dribble. It's close so that's not really the crux of it.

A player that is incrementally better at a variety of skills, in the aggregate, is much better than the comp. In our system, the extra rebounds, shot creation, defense, and passing would be really valuable. In orlando, where he'll likely stand behind the line and shoot, the gap between bane and cam may not be worth the price the magic paid.