2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III

[Jailblazers7]

Tre first step is about as good as Devin Bookers and James Harden. If Tre can buy in on defense and show a willingness to play it? I think he will be alright. That’s all you need really is a willingness to play defense. Shai, Tatum, Haliburton did it. If Tre is the gym rat they say he is. I see the potential to not be a cone/liability. I’m onboard the Tre wagon over VJ. Whether Morey does that or not I have no clue lol Gonna have to accept whomever he decides.

All the players you listed as defenders had elite stock rates in college compared to Tre and much better tape to demonstrate their potential as defenders. Too much of the Tre case rests on “he will probably figure it out” rather than anything demonstrated statistically or on tape. That makes me super nervous.

At least for VJ, his current deficiencies (ball handling & shooting) are in skill categories that are commonly improved with professional training and coaching.

[eyeatoma]

VJ played against more top 50 defenses. For all the hype of the SEC (and I’m one of the fan boys), they were pretty bad defensively comparatively speaking.

People can throw all the stats out there, but the chasm in shooting from Tre and VJ is like comparing Nikola Jokic to Kelly Olynk. Yeah they're both good passing big men, but there are levels here.

Tre is 1 of 1, and Vj, is a good set shooter. Even in the most optimistic timelines VJ will not be a pure shooter. The sky is the limit for Tre as far as offense goes.

Big chasm in shooting, and VJ does everything else better. The shooting chasm between Lillard and Jimmy Butler is huge… because they’re different players. It’s a confusing point to make because shooting isn’t the only aspect of the game.

Shooting is a premier skill in the NBA. It's something everyteam needs. He has some playmaking chops as well. VJ touts himself as a playmaker, but needs to improve there, as well as his one on one scoring, which Tre has no issues with. VJ's best skill is his athleticism, it's also the thing that likely diminishes the quickest as he ages, while shooting will remain with you forever. Defensive players are also a dime a dozen, so I'd rather get the guy who is more likely to becoming a scoring allstar, over the guy who probably has a higher cieling, but is less likely to get there.

[eyeatoma]

Tre first step is about as good as Devin Bookers and James Harden. If Tre can buy in on defense and show a willingness to play it? I think he will be alright. That’s all you need really is a willingness to play defense. Shai, Tatum, Haliburton did it. If Tre is the gym rat they say he is. I see the potential to not be a cone/liability. I’m onboard the Tre wagon over VJ. Whether Morey does that or not I have no clue lol Gonna have to accept whomever he decides.

All the players you listed as defenders had elite stock rates in college compared to Tre and much better tape to demonstrate their potential as defenders. Too much of the Tre case rests on “he will probably figure it out” rather than anything demonstrated statistically or on tape. That makes me super nervous.

At least for VJ, his current deficiencies (ball handling & shooting) are in skill categories that are commonly improved with professional training and coaching.

Nobody thought Maxey would be a good defender, and last season he made huge improvements to the point where he's an above average one and at one point led the league in steals. That's through hardwork, and Tre is a gym rat.

[eyeatoma]

VJ played against more top 50 defenses. For all the hype of the SEC (and I’m one of the fan boys), they were pretty bad defensively comparatively speaking.

People can throw all the stats out there, but the chasm in shooting from Tre and VJ is like comparing Nikola Jokic to Kelly Olynk. Yeah they're both good passing big men, but there are levels here.

Tre is 1 of 1, and Vj, is a good set shooter. Even in the most optimistic timelines VJ will not be a pure shooter. The sky is the limit for Tre as far as offense goes.

Big chasm in shooting, and VJ does everything else better. The shooting chasm between Lillard and Jimmy Butler is huge… because they’re different players. It’s a confusing point to make because shooting isn’t the only aspect of the game.

I'd say Tre's passing is as good as Vjs.

[Jailblazers7]

Tre first step is about as good as Devin Bookers and James Harden. If Tre can buy in on defense and show a willingness to play it? I think he will be alright. That’s all you need really is a willingness to play defense. Shai, Tatum, Haliburton did it. If Tre is the gym rat they say he is. I see the potential to not be a cone/liability. I’m onboard the Tre wagon over VJ. Whether Morey does that or not I have no clue lol Gonna have to accept whomever he decides.

All the players you listed as defenders had elite stock rates in college compared to Tre and much better tape to demonstrate their potential as defenders. Too much of the Tre case rests on “he will probably figure it out” rather than anything demonstrated statistically or on tape. That makes me super nervous.

At least for VJ, his current deficiencies (ball handling & shooting) are in skill categories that are commonly improved with professional training and coaching.

Nobody thought Maxey would be a good defender, and last season he made huge improvements to the point where he's an above average one and at one point led the league in steals. That's through hardwork, and Tre is a gym rat.

The concerns for Maxey were about his size - not ability and effort like it is for Tre. His ability as an on ball defender was actually considered a positive in his scouting profile.

Watch on YouTube

[Covi_Marsh]

I love how we’ve got people on here saying there is no case for VJ over Tre. Many professional talent evaluators (including Daryl Morey possibly) have VJ over Tre. I’m totally open to the case for Tre at this point - in fact I think you can make a decent case for 3-4 different players at our draft slot.

Looking at season splits one thing to note:

Tre Johnson in conference play:
40% FG, 36% 3pt, 90% FT 3 apg, 1.9 TOV, 1.3 stocks

VJ Edgecombe in conference play:
45% FG, 37% 3pt, 81% FT, 3.3 apt, 2 TOV, 2.3 stocks

SEC is obviously a better conference so you've gotta mentally account for that but VJ faired better in conference play when scouting & talent level gets better.

Tre has a slow first step which can be helped with a pick and his shooting will force players to come over the screen and he has the playmaking to pass to the big if their big hedges. So I can see a fit but he has not shown anything outside of offense. I don’t even think Nurse cares about elite in ball defense. He wants disruption in passing lanes which Tre hasn’t even show a willingness to do. Doesn’t rebound a lick either. VJ is more of a Morey prospect just because of elite transition play which is high efficiency. He fits in Nurse disruptive defense. He’s athletic. And he does the non-box score elite plays.

Tre has slow lateral movement which is physical. He will always be food on defense. And the ppl that see upside in his defense or rim attacks but laugh at Ace who is faster and more agile then Tre is crazy.

Tre first step is about as good as Devin Bookers and James Harden. If Tre can buy in on defense and show a willingness to play it? I think he will be alright. That’s all you need really is a willingness to play defense. Shai, Tatum, Haliburton did it. If Tre is the gym rat they say he is. I see the potential to not be a cone/liability. I’m onboard the Tre wagon over VJ. Whether Morey does that or not I have no clue lol Gonna have to accept whomever he decides.

I disagree. His first step is like DeAngelo Russell. And Haliburton plays passing lanes. I’d be fine if he attempted jump steals. All Nurse want is disruption. He has absolutely no interest on that end. Won’t even attempt to chase a rebound. Why are you a gym rat if you dont even care about jumping a passing lanes or chasing a rebound? That’s all part of winning basketball. He needs to get in the gym and work on that. Then theres clips of him getting upset cuz he ain’t getting the ball when he wanted. I wouldn’t pass either if my teammate ain’t doing nothing on defense but wanna take all the shots.

[eyeatoma]

All the players you listed as defenders had elite stock rates in college compared to Tre and much better tape to demonstrate their potential as defenders. Too much of the Tre case rests on “he will probably figure it out” rather than anything demonstrated statistically or on tape. That makes me super nervous.

At least for VJ, his current deficiencies (ball handling & shooting) are in skill categories that are commonly improved with professional training and coaching.

Nobody thought Maxey would be a good defender, and last season he made huge improvements to the point where he's an above average one and at one point led the league in steals. That's through hardwork, and Tre is a gym rat.

The concerns for Maxey were about his size - not ability and effort like it is for Tre. His ability as an on ball defender was actually considered a positive in his scouting profile.

Watch on YouTube

Yet he was an absolute sieve on defense for the 1st 3 years of his career, and was hunted in the playoffs. Those positive skill didn't do him much good to start his career.

[Covi_Marsh]

People can throw all the stats out there, but the chasm in shooting from Tre and VJ is like comparing Nikola Jokic to Kelly Olynk. Yeah they're both good passing big men, but there are levels here.

Tre is 1 of 1, and Vj, is a good set shooter. Even in the most optimistic timelines VJ will not be a pure shooter. The sky is the limit for Tre as far as offense goes.

Big chasm in shooting, and VJ does everything else better. The shooting chasm between Lillard and Jimmy Butler is huge… because they’re different players. It’s a confusing point to make because shooting isn’t the only aspect of the game.

I'd say Tre's passing is as good as Vjs.

I’d say Tre passing is better just off him drawing more defenders off a pick n roll, he would have more open players. VJ can have a high Iq but if players are playing off you there’s only so much you can do passing wise.

[the_process]

really not sure i'm comfortable moving back to 8 at this point. Maybe if something crazy happens and Tre slips... but i don't see it. I feel like a lot of the stuff that is getting posted now is just click bait stuff. 3-6 i can talk myself into the value we got taking 'our star' at 3, or trading down for extra value... but after 6 i'd really have a tough time.

One of Kon or Jakucionis should be available at 8.

Just drafting is a tacit admission the current timeline (Embiid/George/Maxey) is a failure.

Also, it bears mentioning that the chances are they aren't getting a star out of this draft.

[the_process]

So the league is pretty convinced the Sixers are taking VJ, huh?

Time to zag, Morey.

[eyeatoma]

I love how we’ve got people on here saying there is no case for VJ over Tre. Many professional talent evaluators (including Daryl Morey possibly) have VJ over Tre. I’m totally open to the case for Tre at this point - in fact I think you can make a decent case for 3-4 different players at our draft slot.

Looking at season splits one thing to note:

Tre Johnson in conference play:
40% FG, 36% 3pt, 90% FT 3 apg, 1.9 TOV, 1.3 stocks

VJ Edgecombe in conference play:
45% FG, 37% 3pt, 81% FT, 3.3 apt, 2 TOV, 2.3 stocks

SEC is obviously a better conference so you've gotta mentally account for that but VJ faired better in conference play when scouting & talent level gets better.

Tre has a slow first step which can be helped with a pick and his shooting will force players to come over the screen and he has the playmaking to pass to the big if their big hedges. So I can see a fit but he has not shown anything outside of offense. I don’t even think Nurse cares about elite in ball defense. He wants disruption in passing lanes which Tre hasn’t even show a willingness to do. Doesn’t rebound a lick either. VJ is more of a Morey prospect just because of elite transition play which is high efficiency. He fits in Nurse disruptive defense. He’s athletic. And he does the non-box score elite plays.

Tre has slow lateral movement which is physical. He will always be food on defense. And the ppl that see upside in his defense or rim attacks but laugh at Ace who is faster and more agile then Tre is crazy.

Tre first step is about as good as Devin Bookers and James Harden. If Tre can buy in on defense and show a willingness to play it? I think he will be alright. That’s all you need really is a willingness to play defense. Shai, Tatum, Haliburton did it. If Tre is the gym rat they say he is. I see the potential to not be a cone/liability. I’m onboard the Tre wagon over VJ. Whether Morey does that or not I have no clue lol Gonna have to accept whomever he decides.

I like Tre, but I'd say he does not have James Harden's first step. Harden had an elite first step, and still does when he's feeling good. It's what allows him to get the seperation to drive and hit those step backs. If he had Harden's first step he would probably be driving way more.

[Jailblazers7]

Yet he was an absolute sieve on defense for the 1st 3 years of his career, and was hunted in the playoffs. Those positive skill didn't do him much good to start his career.

I’ve already made myself clear on my issues with Tre over the past couple of weeks so I’ll just say one last thing and let it go until the draft. Ultimately, I think effort is a real skill - not just something you can turn on when you feel like it. PJ Tucker was on a pod a couple years ago talking about how people don’t understand how hard it is to consistently come with max effort, even when your not touching the ball & your shot isn’t falling.

I don’t think effort (at least defensively) is a skill that Tre possesses and I’m skeptical he can acquire it. He hasn’t displayed it at in HS or college and probably won’t after he’s drafted top 5 with a contract around $10M.

[eyeatoma]

Yet he was an absolute sieve on defense for the 1st 3 years of his career, and was hunted in the playoffs. Those positive skill didn't do him much good to start his career.

I’ve already made myself clear on my issues with Tre over the past couple of weeks so I’ll just say one last thing and let it go until the draft. Ultimately, I think effort is a real skill - not just something you can turn on when you feel like it. PJ Tucker was on a pod a couple years ago talking about how people don’t understand how hard it is to consistently come with max effort, even when your not touching the ball & your shot isn’t falling.

I don’t think effort (at least defensively) is a skill that Tre possesses and I’m skeptical he can acquire it. He hasn’t displayed it at in HS or college and probably won’t after he’s drafted top 5 with a contract around $10M.

Becoming the shooter and scorer he is right now, 100% took effort. The book on him is that he is a huge gym rat. That screams effort. There are plenty of players in the NBA who are absolutely wonderful offensive players, including MVPS, who are terrible defenders. Jokic/Curry/Harden are a few that come to mind.

I find it funny that we are preaching defense so much, when McCain and Maxey were not known for their D when they were drafted. Didn't stop us from being excited for him being drafted. But this has to be the draft that we go for someone who is a good defender, despite having a limited offensive cieling?

[Negrodamus]

People can throw all the stats out there, but the chasm in shooting from Tre and VJ is like comparing Nikola Jokic to Kelly Olynk. Yeah they're both good passing big men, but there are levels here.

Tre is 1 of 1, and Vj, is a good set shooter. Even in the most optimistic timelines VJ will not be a pure shooter. The sky is the limit for Tre as far as offense goes.

Big chasm in shooting, and VJ does everything else better. The shooting chasm between Lillard and Jimmy Butler is huge… because they’re different players. It’s a confusing point to make because shooting isn’t the only aspect of the game.

I'd say Tre's passing is as good as Vjs.

My point still remains. We’re talking about two different players. If you funnel it down to just shooting, then you’re ignoring the whole story on a prospect.

[Jailblazers7]

Yet he was an absolute sieve on defense for the 1st 3 years of his career, and was hunted in the playoffs. Those positive skill didn't do him much good to start his career.

I’ve already made myself clear on my issues with Tre over the past couple of weeks so I’ll just say one last thing and let it go until the draft. Ultimately, I think effort is a real skill - not just something you can turn on when you feel like it. PJ Tucker was on a pod a couple years ago talking about how people don’t understand how hard it is to consistently come with max effort, even when your not touching the ball & your shot isn’t falling.

I don’t think effort (at least defensively) is a skill that Tre possesses and I’m skeptical he can acquire it. He hasn’t displayed it at in HS or college and probably won’t after he’s drafted top 5 with a contract around $10M.

Becoming the shooter and scorer he is right now, 100% took effort. The book on him is that he is a huge gym rat. That screams effort. There are plenty of players in the NBA who are absolutely wonderful offensive players, including MVPS, who are terrible defenders. Jokic/Curry/Harden are a few that come to mind.

I was referring to sustained effort in a game setting - fighting through screens, crisp defensive rotations, walling off drivers with physicality, etc. The Finals is litter with examples, especially a guy like Nembhard who is competing every second he’s out there on the court.

There are plenty of guys who train hard on the fun parts of the game (scoring & shooting) but don't show up with good effort in games.

[okboomer]

Yet he was an absolute sieve on defense for the 1st 3 years of his career, and was hunted in the playoffs. Those positive skill didn't do him much good to start his career.

I’ve already made myself clear on my issues with Tre over the past couple of weeks so I’ll just say one last thing and let it go until the draft. Ultimately, I think effort is a real skill - not just something you can turn on when you feel like it. PJ Tucker was on a pod a couple years ago talking about how people don’t understand how hard it is to consistently come with max effort, even when your not touching the ball & your shot isn’t falling.

I don’t think effort (at least defensively) is a skill that Tre possesses and I’m skeptical he can acquire it. He hasn’t displayed it at in HS or college and probably won’t after he’s drafted top 5 with a contract around $10M.

Im pretty sure Zach Lowe said something similar about what TJ said recently. How effort is a skill. Im not sure how easy it is to just exert effort like it's a switch. I like Tre, would be fine with them taking him though I really think their should be some real concerns about his effort defensively and rebounding. He is 6'6 with a 6'10 wingspan, he should be getting more rebounds and to me that shows a lack of effort.

[eyeatoma]

I’ve already made myself clear on my issues with Tre over the past couple of weeks so I’ll just say one last thing and let it go until the draft. Ultimately, I think effort is a real skill - not just something you can turn on when you feel like it. PJ Tucker was on a pod a couple years ago talking about how people don’t understand how hard it is to consistently come with max effort, even when your not touching the ball & your shot isn’t falling.

I don’t think effort (at least defensively) is a skill that Tre possesses and I’m skeptical he can acquire it. He hasn’t displayed it at in HS or college and probably won’t after he’s drafted top 5 with a contract around $10M.

Becoming the shooter and scorer he is right now, 100% took effort. The book on him is that he is a huge gym rat. That screams effort. There are plenty of players in the NBA who are absolutely wonderful offensive players, including MVPS, who are terrible defenders. Jokic/Curry/Harden are a few that come to mind.

I was referring to sustained effort in a game setting - fighting through screens, crisp defensive rotations, walling off drivers with physicality, etc. The Finals is litter with examples, especially a guy like Nembhard who is competing every second he’s out there on the court.

There are plenty of guys who train hard on the fun parts of the game (scoring & shooting) but don't show up with good effort in games.

You seem to equate playing on both sides of the ball as a necessity to being a very good player in the NBA. Which is not the case at all. I've listed players who have won championships and MVPs while being absolute sieves on defense. There are 9 other spots on the team, this guy does not have to be able to do everything. You get the player who has the most projectable and useful skill. In that case it's 3 point shooting and scoring. Better offense always trumps better defense. We see how far OKCs defense is taking them when the better offensive team is going toe to toe with them and would had likely won the chip right now had it not been for Scott Fosters medling.

[eyeatoma]

Yet he was an absolute sieve on defense for the 1st 3 years of his career, and was hunted in the playoffs. Those positive skill didn't do him much good to start his career.

I’ve already made myself clear on my issues with Tre over the past couple of weeks so I’ll just say one last thing and let it go until the draft. Ultimately, I think effort is a real skill - not just something you can turn on when you feel like it. PJ Tucker was on a pod a couple years ago talking about how people don’t understand how hard it is to consistently come with max effort, even when your not touching the ball & your shot isn’t falling.

I don’t think effort (at least defensively) is a skill that Tre possesses and I’m skeptical he can acquire it. He hasn’t displayed it at in HS or college and probably won’t after he’s drafted top 5 with a contract around $10M.

Im pretty sure Zach Lowe said something similar about what TJ said recently. How effort is a skill. Im not sure how easy it is to just exert effort like it's a switch. I like Tre, would be fine with them taking him though I really think their should be some real concerns about his effort defensively and rebounding. He is 6'6 with a 6'10 wingspan, he should be getting more rebounds and to me that shows a lack of effort.

Explain to me why Derek and Kyle both have Sixers taking Tre Johnson, as well as the latest Zach Lowe Podcast?

Are we really equating rebounding to being good now? Andre Drummond is one of the best rebounders in the world, and barely gets any playing time. In the end its is your skills good enough where the team can afford having you on the floor inspite of your deficiencies. I think Tre Johnson absolutely can with his scoring ability. There hasn't been as good a shooter as Tre since Steph and Klay came out.

[Mik317]

generally guys who go from bad defenders on lower levels to good defenders in the NBA are guys whose scoring or playmaking doesn't fully translate and they have to adjust to survive.

my current stance is that VJ has the highest floor of all of the guys rumored to us. Seems like most take that for him not having a high ceiling which I don't agree with. If you are going to give Tre grace that he will be more than a shooter and that his testing was legit, or that Ace will become a better ball handler, decision maker, and also shooter and its all due to nba training, spacing and the fact that their teams weren't good....then you kinda have to give VJ that same grace, no?

The difference ATM is that even if VJ is just "VJ Melton" at the end of the day...that is still a damn good player who fits on a ton of teams whereas Tre, Ace and Kon's "floors" are a bit shakier IMO as they are more reliant on their offense translating to be fully valuable....which is probably why VJ is in the lead atm internally.

BTW I voted for Tre on the poll so its not even bias talking but yeah some of yall give your "guys" more leeway than you do VJ lol.

[Negrodamus]

I just think from a statistical standpoint (which everyone hates) VJ displays more paths to superstardom. Tre doesn’t display the handles or distribution of those mega offensive prospects that require a ton of coverage from the rest of the lineup on defense. VJ also provides something this team doesn’t have: off ball rim pressure with dynamic playmaking. I know fit isn’t the focus, but do we anticipate Tre getting to a level where he should be taking the ball out of Maxey’s hands? I don’t. Harper I could believe, not Tre.