2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III

[Arsenal]

Question:

Would you gents move forward and draft VJ right now if you knew he would become Jalen Suggs?

Legit asking, because I might

No. And that’s a good upside comp.

[eyeatoma]

Question:

Would you gents move forward and draft VJ right now if you knew he would become Jalen Suggs?

Legit asking, because I might

With the 3rd pick? No...

Sent from my SM-S938B using Tapatalk

[FireMorey]

I don't know if people have grappled with just how high the stakes are with this pick.

The situation:

-Sixers likely will not have next year's first rounder(or any picks)
-Sixers owe own 2028 pick to the Nets
-Will likely not be bad enough barring intentionally tanking or injury in the other years again for a top 5 pick.
-Pay roll maxed out

If Embiid comes back healthy - Sixers will contend, but still likely a piece or two short, unless McCain blossoms and the pick this year becomes a legitimate rotational player(or perhaps more than that).

If Embiid doesn't return healthy - the process era is over and it's time to start rebuilding. Maxey and McCain are not close to a strong enough foundation to rebuild with. However, if this pick becomes a legitimate player, have a 3 young stud player foundation to start with is legitimately something.

Irrespective of the player taken with their pick, the spot they're picking can be used to recoup more picks down the road(in a trade down) potentially, to negate some of the above listed issues.

The Sixers pretty much have to nail this pick one way or the other. It could be the difference in winning a title or having a successful rebuild(if Embiid is washed) and this organization just wallowing in nowheresville for the next 5+ years.

Oh, and if they don't nail it, Morey and Nurse could both be fired and then they could be looking at another organizational overhaul and who knows what the hell happens with that.

Whatever you want the Sixers to do on Wednesday night, I hope everyone has these realities in mind.

Who are your top 3 that we can draft? Ignoring Flagg?

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Harper, Tre and unsure of 3rd. I like things about Ace more than VJ. I like things about VJ more than Ace. I think Ace has higher offensive upside, but I worry about his ability to not beat defenders off the dribble. But he can hit tough shots. I love VJ’s mentality but worry about his offensive ceiling. But will his work ethic make up for it? Hard to say.

[CPops57]

Question:

Would you gents move forward and draft VJ right now if you knew he would become Jalen Suggs?

Legit asking, because I might

I'm a little curious about why his counting stats went up but his efficiency nosedived this year. Is there something unusual about Orlando's team this year that contributed to this or do people think he can't really scale up his offensive role in any significant way?

[Jailblazers7]

If we’re doing bad faith arguments…

Tre Johnson at Texas:
56% TS%, 43% 3PAr, 27% FTr, 5.2% REB%, 16.5% AST%, 2.6 Stock%

Evan Fournier NBA career:
56% TS%, 46% 3PAr, 22% FTr, 5.2% REB%, 14.3% AST%, 2.1% Stock%

[M2J]

Question:

Would you gents move forward and draft VJ right now if you knew he would become Jalen Suggs?

Legit asking, because I might

I'm a little curious about why his counting stats went up but his efficiency nosedived this year. Is there something unusual about Orlando's team this year that contributed to this or do people think he can't really scale up his offensive role in any significant way?

His role increased offensively after Paulo and Franz got hurt, and they still played well with him generally leading them (though they had a deep roster with Paulo and Jalen and I think Franz 2nd deals not yet kicking in.

But yes, counting stats went up and efficiency down due to role change and lack of open looks from his stars

[ProcessDoctor]

Random stat that surprised me - Edgecombe averaged only 1 less assist per 36 minutes than Harper.

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=v-j-edgecombe--dylan-harper

Every time I look at the two head-to-head, I wonder if this is just because Baylor >> Rutgers, or are they really that close? The points per shot attempt are similar (1.4 to 1.3), the gap in FTr isn't as large as I thought, and similar shooting projections. VJ, of course, just takes every defensive metric.

About half (slightly more) of the #3 picks have outperformed the #2 picks since 2003. Maybe this year will be one of those drafts.

[Mik317]

Smith took 1.4 3s to VJ's 5. VJ is a whole inch taller. And again this is where the actual tape comes into play in which VJ's burst pops. Smith virtually played the 4 in college as well (also came off the bench IIRC)

not to mention Smith also ALMOST **** DIED....so there is also that.

This is where context matters

yall aren't arguing in good faith lol

But to say that VJ can overcome his shooting/scoring issues because he showed improvement in the season?

Improvement isn't linear. That might have been all the improvement that VJ makes. Tre is already probably starter level on offense, and with his 3 point shooting, would be far more valuable offensively. YOu can't say bad faith, but then just assume because VJ showed improvement, after actually janking his shot, that he's got this seamingly boundless fountain of untapped potential. People have done this all offseason with their guy saying that their guy will improve, but every other one won't. In the end non of us will probably be right, but let's not act like people are being rational in fairly assessing strenghts and improvement. Somehow I'm supposed to believe VJs eye test, but shouldn't believe Aces, or Tre's because of VORP? I mean Tre has good avanced stats, but his d is bad, and now none of ya'll want to touch him?

We drafted McCain and Maxey two players not known for defense. Morey would marry Harden, not know for D. Morey is not some defense only analyser. He looks for superstar potential. Both Tre and VJ have it I suppose, atleast an iota, same with Flagg, Harper and Bailey. I was all on Bailey, but he's a jackass, so Tre is the next best option there when we are talking STRICTLY offensively. Funniest thing is Morey keeps his decisions close to his vest, and rarely takes the player that we are often touted to take.

Because we have seen VJ's improvement and how it happened. Improving your shot is something that happens all of the time (well for most teams lol). Guys being able to move their hips better and give more effort on defense...is less likely based off of history. VJ's flaws are things guys have improved on. Tre and Ace's are far rarer bets. This doesn't mean it can't happen. It doesn't mean VJ will either it is just an easier bet and the tape and stats back that up more than they do for the other guys IMO.

My issue isn't that I think those guys suck either. Both are reasonable upside bets, its just that in context with history and my own eyes I personally feel like VJ's path is a bit more clearer than them. I mean hell the guy with the best tape and best stat indicators is actually Kon but context clues and imo gut feel makes me wonder about how he holds up on defense AND gets by any one despite the tape and stats saying he will be fine. This isn't a binary thing imo...its just that IMO with everything that I have seen I personally believe that VJ has great upside AND a good floor, while Ace is is a guy whose ideal is right up my alley but the tape doesn't match it and the stats back up that lack of match. Tre again my current choice btw has some serious downsides that I don't think can just be wiped away with just oh he will get better at it because those are things you either have or don't. Kon I said my piece above. I am okay with us taking any of the above with 3 actually yes even Ace and even after his camps shenanigans.

I just feel like the arguments against VJ aren't based in full reality atm just because people favor other guys. We have had ageism, lies about his height, lies about his shot, lies about his handle, and even some dudes calling him a PG.....It just bad ball talk imo (not saying you btw).

[okboomer]

Random stat that surprised me - Edgecombe averaged only 1 less assist per 36 minutes than Harper.

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=v-j-edgecombe--dylan-harper

Every time I look at the two head-to-head, I wonder if this is just because Baylor >> Rutgers, or are they really that close? The points per shot attempt are similar (1.4 to 1.3), the gap in FTr isn't as large as I thought, and similar shooting projections. VJ, of course, just takes every defensive metric.

About half (slightly more) of the #3 picks have outperformed the #2 picks since 2003. Maybe this year will be one of those drafts.

Harper's assist % is better. He's the better prospect because how fluid he is dribbling with both hands and how well he finishes at the rim. How he gets there and finishes is alot like Harden to my eyes though he doesnt draw nearly as many fouls as he did in college. The takes about VJ in this thread are hilarious though . There is a much better chance he is VJ Holiday or VJ Oladipo than there is VJ Melton or VJ Smith . He rose from outside the top 150 his junior year to top 5 to end his senior year. He is only getting better and better and anyone who is looking at it objectively can see that.

[ProcessDoctor]

Random stat that surprised me - Edgecombe averaged only 1 less assist per 36 minutes than Harper.

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=v-j-edgecombe--dylan-harper

Every time I look at the two head-to-head, I wonder if this is just because Baylor >> Rutgers, or are they really that close? The points per shot attempt are similar (1.4 to 1.3), the gap in FTr isn't as large as I thought, and similar shooting projections. VJ, of course, just takes every defensive metric.

About half (slightly more) of the #3 picks have outperformed the #2 picks since 2003. Maybe this year will be one of those drafts.

Harper's assist % is better. He's the better prospect because how fluid he is dribbling with both hands and how well he finishes at the rim. How he gets there and finishes is alot like Harden to my eyes though he doesnt draw nearly as many fouls as he did in college. The takes about VJ in this thread are hilarious though . There is a much better chance he is VJ Holiday or VJ Oladipo than there is VJ Melton or VJ Smith . He rose from outside the top 150 his junior year to top 5 to end his senior year. He is only getting better and better and anyone who is looking at it objectively can see that.

Yea I've just ignored the lazy poor takes I think Oladipo is a fair 50th percentile outcome for VJ. My 90th+ percentile outcome for him is a guard version of Jimmy Butler. A 20/5/5 two-way monster with a lot of dog in him. Hopefully less dramatic though...

[Iverson Armband]

Smith took 1.4 3s to VJ's 5. VJ is a whole inch taller. And again this is where the actual tape comes into play in which VJ's burst pops. Smith virtually played the 4 in college as well (also came off the bench IIRC)

not to mention Smith also ALMOST **** DIED....so there is also that.

This is where context matters

yall aren't arguing in good faith lol

But to say that VJ can overcome his shooting/scoring issues because he showed improvement in the season?

Improvement isn't linear. That might have been all the improvement that VJ makes. Tre is already probably starter level on offense, and with his 3 point shooting, would be far more valuable offensively. YOu can't say bad faith, but then just assume because VJ showed improvement, after actually janking his shot, that he's got this seamingly boundless fountain of untapped potential. People have done this all offseason with their guy saying that their guy will improve, but every other one won't. In the end non of us will probably be right, but let's not act like people are being rational in fairly assessing strenghts and improvement. Somehow I'm supposed to believe VJs eye test, but shouldn't believe Aces, or Tre's because of VORP? I mean Tre has good avanced stats, but his d is bad, and now none of ya'll want to touch him?

We drafted McCain and Maxey two players not known for defense. Morey would marry Harden, not know for D. Morey is not some defense only analyser. He looks for superstar potential. Both Tre and VJ have it I suppose, atleast an iota, same with Flagg, Harper and Bailey. I was all on Bailey, but he's a jackass, so Tre is the next best option there when we are talking STRICTLY offensively. Funniest thing is Morey keeps his decisions close to his vest, and rarely takes the player that we are often touted to take.

Because we have seen VJ's improvement and how it happened. Improving your shot is something that happens all of the time (well for most teams lol). Guys being able to move their hips better and give more effort on defense...is less likely based off of history. VJ's flaws are things guys have improved on. Tre and Ace's are far rarer bets. This doesn't mean it can't happen. It doesn't mean VJ will either it is just an easier bet and the tape and stats back that up more than they do for the other guys IMO.

My issue isn't that I think those guys suck either. Both are reasonable upside bets, its just that in context with history and my own eyes I personally feel like VJ's path is a bit more clearer than them. I mean hell the guy with the best tape and best stat indicators is actually Kon but context clues and imo gut feel makes me wonder about how he holds up on defense AND gets by any one despite the tape and stats saying he will be fine. This isn't a binary thing imo...its just that IMO with everything that I have seen I personally believe that VJ has great upside AND a good floor, while Ace is is a guy whose ideal is right up my alley but the tape doesn't match it and the stats back up that lack of match. Tre again my current choice btw has some serious downsides that I don't think can just be wiped away with just oh he will get better at it because those are things you either have or don't. Kon I said my piece above. I am okay with us taking any of the above with 3 actually yes even Ace and even after his camps shenanigans.

I just feel like the arguments against VJ aren't based in full reality atm just because people favor other guys. We have had ageism, lies about his height, lies about his shot, lies about his handle, and even some dudes calling him a PG.....It just bad ball talk imo (not saying you btw).

You’ve got people calling Tre, Cam Thomas. It doesn’t get any more lazy than that.

[eyeatoma]

Smith took 1.4 3s to VJ's 5. VJ is a whole inch taller. And again this is where the actual tape comes into play in which VJ's burst pops. Smith virtually played the 4 in college as well (also came off the bench IIRC)

not to mention Smith also ALMOST **** DIED....so there is also that.

This is where context matters

yall aren't arguing in good faith lol

But to say that VJ can overcome his shooting/scoring issues because he showed improvement in the season?

Improvement isn't linear. That might have been all the improvement that VJ makes. Tre is already probably starter level on offense, and with his 3 point shooting, would be far more valuable offensively. YOu can't say bad faith, but then just assume because VJ showed improvement, after actually janking his shot, that he's got this seamingly boundless fountain of untapped potential. People have done this all offseason with their guy saying that their guy will improve, but every other one won't. In the end non of us will probably be right, but let's not act like people are being rational in fairly assessing strenghts and improvement. Somehow I'm supposed to believe VJs eye test, but shouldn't believe Aces, or Tre's because of VORP? I mean Tre has good avanced stats, but his d is bad, and now none of ya'll want to touch him?

We drafted McCain and Maxey two players not known for defense. Morey would marry Harden, not know for D. Morey is not some defense only analyser. He looks for superstar potential. Both Tre and VJ have it I suppose, atleast an iota, same with Flagg, Harper and Bailey. I was all on Bailey, but he's a jackass, so Tre is the next best option there when we are talking STRICTLY offensively. Funniest thing is Morey keeps his decisions close to his vest, and rarely takes the player that we are often touted to take.

Because we have seen VJ's improvement and how it happened. Improving your shot is something that happens all of the time (well for most teams lol). Guys being able to move their hips better and give more effort on defense...is less likely based off of history. VJ's flaws are things guys have improved on. Tre and Ace's are far rarer bets. This doesn't mean it can't happen. It doesn't mean VJ will either it is just an easier bet and the tape and stats back that up more than they do for the other guys IMO.

My issue isn't that I think those guys suck either. Both are reasonable upside bets, its just that in context with history and my own eyes I personally feel like VJ's path is a bit more clearer than them. I mean hell the guy with the best tape and best stat indicators is actually Kon but context clues and imo gut feel makes me wonder about how he holds up on defense AND gets by any one despite the tape and stats saying he will be fine. This isn't a binary thing imo...its just that IMO with everything that I have seen I personally believe that VJ has great upside AND a good floor, while Ace is is a guy whose ideal is right up my alley but the tape doesn't match it and the stats back up that lack of match. Tre again my current choice btw has some serious downsides that I don't think can just be wiped away with just oh he will get better at it because those are things you either have or don't. Kon I said my piece above. I am okay with us taking any of the above with 3 actually yes even Ace and even after his camps shenanigans.

I just feel like the arguments against VJ aren't based in full reality atm just because people favor other guys. We have had ageism, lies about his height, lies about his shot, lies about his handle, and even some dudes calling him a PG.....It just bad ball talk imo (not saying you btw).

There are no lies about anything. One is a clear offensive star, the other is a do it all guy, who has shown some offensive chops, has a good set shot, and is a hyper athlete. The way this board talks about VJ he should go number 1 in the draft. Hell, he'll also be better than Flagg. If VJ is as good as you say, Morey wouldn't be trying to get the #2 pick. And Harper isn't a homerun pick either, not with his clunky ass jumper, and pedestrian athleticism. I just think people see what they want to see. For some reason a guy that doesn't try on defense means that they're not trying to get better which is BS. So yeah maybe Tre isn't good on defense, maybe he's not physically able to be as good, he knows where he's good and he's very good at it. I'll probably warm up to VJ, but I'd rather pick someone I can bet on being someone we really need, a great shooter and shotmaker, who plays great on or offball. Maxey had a big dip this year shooting wise, and McCain has already torn his menisicus. Tre is prototypical shooting guard size, and is a lights out shooter with excellent shot making ability. I think that's much more a sure thing, with what he excels in, as opposed to betting on the theoretical improvement of VJ.

[sodmoraes]

I think VJ will be better than Zhaire( even if he didnt have his sesame seeds accident), since he seems to be way more agressive, uses his athletic abilities more efficiently ( with a better first step) and he shot 3s with more volume than Smith. But his offensive game , in his first years, will probably be just dunks and CS from 3 with meh volume and %. My thing with him is that to develop his off the dribble shooting will not be easy ( and that is the skill that would make him a star), while this skill is already there with Tre, in great capacity.

I think we gotta ask yourselves who would be the better player considering a median skill development. If edgecomb doesnt develop his off the dribble shooting, and is just a defender, with nice dunks and a decent CS from 3, or Tre with a really good shooting from 3, but with almost non driving game and bad defense. I tend to think Tre would be more valuable in this scenario, since i value his shooting a lot.

[eyeatoma]

What people also don't seem to realize, is that this theoretical version of VJ, is never going to be around when Embiid is here. He will need 3-4 years of development to become the player some of ya'll are talking about, while Tre has great potential to be a league leading scorer and can immediately contribute from day 1 on a team that is trying to be competitive. He is the most ready player apart from Flagg and Harper, and has star potential as well.

[okboomer]

Random stat that surprised me - Edgecombe averaged only 1 less assist per 36 minutes than Harper.

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=v-j-edgecombe--dylan-harper

Every time I look at the two head-to-head, I wonder if this is just because Baylor >> Rutgers, or are they really that close? The points per shot attempt are similar (1.4 to 1.3), the gap in FTr isn't as large as I thought, and similar shooting projections. VJ, of course, just takes every defensive metric.

About half (slightly more) of the #3 picks have outperformed the #2 picks since 2003. Maybe this year will be one of those drafts.

Harper's assist % is better. He's the better prospect because how fluid he is dribbling with both hands and how well he finishes at the rim. How he gets there and finishes is alot like Harden to my eyes though he doesnt draw nearly as many fouls as he did in college. The takes about VJ in this thread are hilarious though . There is a much better chance he is VJ Holiday or VJ Oladipo than there is VJ Melton or VJ Smith . He rose from outside the top 150 his junior year to top 5 to end his senior year. He is only getting better and better and anyone who is looking at it objectively can see that.

Yea I've just ignored the lazy poor takes I think Oladipo is a fair 50th percentile outcome for VJ. My 90th+ percentile outcome for him is a guard version of Jimmy Butler. A 20/5/5 two-way monster with a lot of dog in him. Hopefully less dramatic though...

Just objectively typing, I think Olapido was very good. So closer to a 75% outcome. Before that gruesome injury he made an all nba team was a two time all star. I really do think many here are underselling VJ and how much he keeps improving. Whatever his ceiling is, which nine of know I think he will reach it due to his work ethic. Basically the same as Jalen (Hurts). Though I do think they really want to trade back, for CBA purposes. Though Daryl will probably hold out a price that seems unreasonable.

[Mik317]

But to say that VJ can overcome his shooting/scoring issues because he showed improvement in the season?

Improvement isn't linear. That might have been all the improvement that VJ makes. Tre is already probably starter level on offense, and with his 3 point shooting, would be far more valuable offensively. YOu can't say bad faith, but then just assume because VJ showed improvement, after actually janking his shot, that he's got this seamingly boundless fountain of untapped potential. People have done this all offseason with their guy saying that their guy will improve, but every other one won't. In the end non of us will probably be right, but let's not act like people are being rational in fairly assessing strenghts and improvement. Somehow I'm supposed to believe VJs eye test, but shouldn't believe Aces, or Tre's because of VORP? I mean Tre has good avanced stats, but his d is bad, and now none of ya'll want to touch him?

We drafted McCain and Maxey two players not known for defense. Morey would marry Harden, not know for D. Morey is not some defense only analyser. He looks for superstar potential. Both Tre and VJ have it I suppose, atleast an iota, same with Flagg, Harper and Bailey. I was all on Bailey, but he's a jackass, so Tre is the next best option there when we are talking STRICTLY offensively. Funniest thing is Morey keeps his decisions close to his vest, and rarely takes the player that we are often touted to take.

Because we have seen VJ's improvement and how it happened. Improving your shot is something that happens all of the time (well for most teams lol). Guys being able to move their hips better and give more effort on defense...is less likely based off of history. VJ's flaws are things guys have improved on. Tre and Ace's are far rarer bets. This doesn't mean it can't happen. It doesn't mean VJ will either it is just an easier bet and the tape and stats back that up more than they do for the other guys IMO.

My issue isn't that I think those guys suck either. Both are reasonable upside bets, its just that in context with history and my own eyes I personally feel like VJ's path is a bit more clearer than them. I mean hell the guy with the best tape and best stat indicators is actually Kon but context clues and imo gut feel makes me wonder about how he holds up on defense AND gets by any one despite the tape and stats saying he will be fine. This isn't a binary thing imo...its just that IMO with everything that I have seen I personally believe that VJ has great upside AND a good floor, while Ace is is a guy whose ideal is right up my alley but the tape doesn't match it and the stats back up that lack of match. Tre again my current choice btw has some serious downsides that I don't think can just be wiped away with just oh he will get better at it because those are things you either have or don't. Kon I said my piece above. I am okay with us taking any of the above with 3 actually yes even Ace and even after his camps shenanigans.

I just feel like the arguments against VJ aren't based in full reality atm just because people favor other guys. We have had ageism, lies about his height, lies about his shot, lies about his handle, and even some dudes calling him a PG.....It just bad ball talk imo (not saying you btw).

There are no lies about anything. One is a clear offensive star, the other is a do it all guy, who has shown some offensive chops, has a good set shot, and is a hyper athlete. The way this board talks about VJ he should go number 1 in the draft. Hell, he'll also be better than Flagg. If VJ is as good as you say, Morey wouldn't be trying to get the #2 pick. And Harper isn't a homerun pick either, not with his clunky ass jumper, and pedestrian athleticism. I just think people see what they want to see. For some reason a guy that doesn't try on defense means that they're not trying to get better which is BS. So yeah maybe Tre isn't good on defense, maybe he's not physically able to be as good, he knows where he's good and he's very good at it. I'll probably warm up to VJ, but I'd rather pick someone I can bet on being someone we really need, a great shooter. Maxey had a big dip this year, and McCain has already torn his menisicus. Tre is prototypical guard size, and is a lights out shooter with excellent shot making ability. I think that's much more a sure thing, with what he excels in, as opposed to betting on the theoretical improvement of VJ.

nope. This is the exact hyperbole I am calling out lol. Just because we aren't throwing around VJ Meltons and saying he is only a role player doesn't mean we don't think he is flawless or perfect either. Its funny that you say this and then go on to act like Tre is by using offensive star. You don't see the contradiction there lol? You are saying we are acting like VJ is perfect when you are literally handwaving Tre's flaws. Yes he is an insane shooter from all over, has great size for a guard but the reality is that he was awful on defense and didn't really bring much else to the table. That is concerning no? There are plenty of insane shooters than enter the league and that's no longer good enough. That is a potential outcome even if personally I think there may be some playmaking upside and the 6'10 wingspan SHOULD in theory at least be a problem in the passing lanes....but that CURRENTLY does not show up on tape or in the stats...so its equally possible that he just doesn't get much better there...whereas VJ's stats and tape do point to an improving jumper and more offensive upside as he improved on that front as the season went on. That doesn't mean he is a lock to continue and I do worry about his height and his handle is fine but not creation good yet either. my fear with VJ is that we take him and one of the other guys pop more BUT again the tape, the stats, and the factual seen improvement AS WELL as some future prognosis are why I also think he is the current best bet as a whole package and I feel like that is downplayed too easily.

as for Harper, he is elite at getting to the rim AND finishing..which is an actual special trait, built like a tank and is a good FT% so I don't worry about the shot much...plus he has been around the NBA his whole life...I think he is the real deal ;perfect fit next to our guards too and imo can guard 3s due to his girth. He is the actual pick for me but I think the Spurs feel the same way and Fox and Castle aren't good enough to stop that.

[okboomer]

It's just nonsense and crap to advocate we think VJ is the best player in this draft. No one is advocating he is better than Cooper and Harper. This is why this discussion about him is not genuine. Those two are not attainable, so here we are.

[eyeatoma]

Because we have seen VJ's improvement and how it happened. Improving your shot is something that happens all of the time (well for most teams lol). Guys being able to move their hips better and give more effort on defense...is less likely based off of history. VJ's flaws are things guys have improved on. Tre and Ace's are far rarer bets. This doesn't mean it can't happen. It doesn't mean VJ will either it is just an easier bet and the tape and stats back that up more than they do for the other guys IMO.

My issue isn't that I think those guys suck either. Both are reasonable upside bets, its just that in context with history and my own eyes I personally feel like VJ's path is a bit more clearer than them. I mean hell the guy with the best tape and best stat indicators is actually Kon but context clues and imo gut feel makes me wonder about how he holds up on defense AND gets by any one despite the tape and stats saying he will be fine. This isn't a binary thing imo...its just that IMO with everything that I have seen I personally believe that VJ has great upside AND a good floor, while Ace is is a guy whose ideal is right up my alley but the tape doesn't match it and the stats back up that lack of match. Tre again my current choice btw has some serious downsides that I don't think can just be wiped away with just oh he will get better at it because those are things you either have or don't. Kon I said my piece above. I am okay with us taking any of the above with 3 actually yes even Ace and even after his camps shenanigans.

I just feel like the arguments against VJ aren't based in full reality atm just because people favor other guys. We have had ageism, lies about his height, lies about his shot, lies about his handle, and even some dudes calling him a PG.....It just bad ball talk imo (not saying you btw).

There are no lies about anything. One is a clear offensive star, the other is a do it all guy, who has shown some offensive chops, has a good set shot, and is a hyper athlete. The way this board talks about VJ he should go number 1 in the draft. Hell, he'll also be better than Flagg. If VJ is as good as you say, Morey wouldn't be trying to get the #2 pick. And Harper isn't a homerun pick either, not with his clunky ass jumper, and pedestrian athleticism. I just think people see what they want to see. For some reason a guy that doesn't try on defense means that they're not trying to get better which is BS. So yeah maybe Tre isn't good on defense, maybe he's not physically able to be as good, he knows where he's good and he's very good at it. I'll probably warm up to VJ, but I'd rather pick someone I can bet on being someone we really need, a great shooter. Maxey had a big dip this year, and McCain has already torn his menisicus. Tre is prototypical guard size, and is a lights out shooter with excellent shot making ability. I think that's much more a sure thing, with what he excels in, as opposed to betting on the theoretical improvement of VJ.

nope. This is the exact hyperbole I am calling out lol. Just because we aren't throwing around VJ Meltons and saying he is only a role player doesn't mean we don't think he is flawless or perfect either. Its funny that you say this and then go on to act like Tre is by using offensive star. You don't see the contradiction there lol? You are saying we are acting like VJ is perfect when you are literally handwaving Tre's flaws. Yes he is an insane shooter from all over, has great size for a guard but the reality is that he was awful on defense and didn't really bring much else to the table. That is concerning no? There are plenty of insane shooters than enter the league and that's no longer good enough. That is a potential outcome even if personally I think there may be some playmaking upside and the 6'10 wingspan SHOULD in theory at least be a problem in the passing lanes....but that CURRENTLY does not show up on tape or in the stats...so its equally possible that he just doesn't get much better there...whereas VJ's stats and tape do point to an improving jumper and more offensive upside as he improved on that front as the season went on. That doesn't mean he is a lock to continue and I do worry about his height and his handle is fine but not creation good yet either. my fear with VJ is that we take him and one of the other guys pop more BUT again the tape, the stats, and the factual seen improvement AS WELL as some future prognosis are why I also think he is the current best bet as a whole package and I feel like that is downplayed too easily.

as for Harper, he is elite at getting to the rim AND finishing..which is an actual special trait, built like a tank and is a good FT% so I don't worry about the shot much...plus he has been around the NBA his whole life...I think he is the real deal ;perfect fit next to our guards too and imo can guard 3s due to his girth. He is the actual pick for me but I think the Spurs feel the same way and Fox and Castle aren't good enough to stop that.

Lol, not sure why you just think VJs progression needs to be held up on this pedestal. It's a weird hill to die on. Tre Johnson also improved in the year. Also acting like Tre can't improve at all, is the same stuff that was said about Ace.

Least with Ace dude was a douche and wasn't interviewing well. There has been nothing but positivty about Tre Johnson.

You also didnt' address my point that as we toe the line between the past and future, VJ is not a good fit. This offensive star that many think he'll become won't be in the same timeline as Embiid and George, while Johnson could give you 15-17 ppg from the get go, with a lot of room to grow and potentially be a star.

[Arsenal]

VJ’s “stocks” are inflated due to the Baylor zone scheme. Those numbers and how they contribute to BPM are the sole reason so many BPMcels and stat-lusters are pumping him. He’s actually not a great defender and gets wiped out on screens constantly. Plus he’s too small and frail to defend forwards, who will abuse him easily.

[OleSchool]

There are no lies about anything. One is a clear offensive star, the other is a do it all guy, who has shown some offensive chops, has a good set shot, and is a hyper athlete. The way this board talks about VJ he should go number 1 in the draft. Hell, he'll also be better than Flagg. If VJ is as good as you say, Morey wouldn't be trying to get the #2 pick. And Harper isn't a homerun pick either, not with his clunky ass jumper, and pedestrian athleticism. I just think people see what they want to see. For some reason a guy that doesn't try on defense means that they're not trying to get better which is BS. So yeah maybe Tre isn't good on defense, maybe he's not physically able to be as good, he knows where he's good and he's very good at it. I'll probably warm up to VJ, but I'd rather pick someone I can bet on being someone we really need, a great shooter. Maxey had a big dip this year, and McCain has already torn his menisicus. Tre is prototypical guard size, and is a lights out shooter with excellent shot making ability. I think that's much more a sure thing, with what he excels in, as opposed to betting on the theoretical improvement of VJ.

nope. This is the exact hyperbole I am calling out lol. Just because we aren't throwing around VJ Meltons and saying he is only a role player doesn't mean we don't think he is flawless or perfect either. Its funny that you say this and then go on to act like Tre is by using offensive star. You don't see the contradiction there lol? You are saying we are acting like VJ is perfect when you are literally handwaving Tre's flaws. Yes he is an insane shooter from all over, has great size for a guard but the reality is that he was awful on defense and didn't really bring much else to the table. That is concerning no? There are plenty of insane shooters than enter the league and that's no longer good enough. That is a potential outcome even if personally I think there may be some playmaking upside and the 6'10 wingspan SHOULD in theory at least be a problem in the passing lanes....but that CURRENTLY does not show up on tape or in the stats...so its equally possible that he just doesn't get much better there...whereas VJ's stats and tape do point to an improving jumper and more offensive upside as he improved on that front as the season went on. That doesn't mean he is a lock to continue and I do worry about his height and his handle is fine but not creation good yet either. my fear with VJ is that we take him and one of the other guys pop more BUT again the tape, the stats, and the factual seen improvement AS WELL as some future prognosis are why I also think he is the current best bet as a whole package and I feel like that is downplayed too easily.

as for Harper, he is elite at getting to the rim AND finishing..which is an actual special trait, built like a tank and is a good FT% so I don't worry about the shot much...plus he has been around the NBA his whole life...I think he is the real deal ;perfect fit next to our guards too and imo can guard 3s due to his girth. He is the actual pick for me but I think the Spurs feel the same way and Fox and Castle aren't good enough to stop that.

Lol, not sure why you just think VJs progression needs to be held up on this pedestal. It's a weird hill to die on. Tre Johnson also improved in the year. Also acting like Tre can't improve at all, is the same stuff that was said about Ace.

Least with Ace dude was a douche and wasn't interviewing well. There has been nothing but positivty about Tre Johnson.

You also didnt' address my point that as we toe the line between the past and future, VJ is not a good fit. This offensive star that many think he'll become won't be in the same timeline as Embiid and George, while Johnson could give you 15-17 ppg from the get go, with a lot of room to grow and potentially be a star.

And you really think NN is going to play a rook WHO DOESNT PLAY DEFENSE enough minutes to get 15-17 ppg???