2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III

[Mik317]

There is great chance Nurse benches Tre for his bad defense for one. I also don't agree that VJ is a bad fit. His athleticism alone gives us something we don't have on the roster atm. Even if the Melton bull is real...Melton was really good next to Maxey and Harden because he didn't need the ball, spaced the floor and defended. Even if VJ is just a 3 and D guy ATM, that fits in with every team. Him in the open court with Maxey would be a movie and is exactly what Morey said we'd try to add. The whole timeline thing is actually the selling point for VJ as he can contribute off the ball and without getting plays run for him so if Biid isn't cooked and PG has a return season, you don't have a guy who needs reps just spotting up in the corner. Honestly Tre's upside probably comes into play more if we didn't have Biid and PG eating up possesions....as I think his real upside has him on ball more.

I do not hate Tre at all I just think people are being unfair to VJ in ways they aren't to him and it is weird.

[eyeatoma]

nope. This is the exact hyperbole I am calling out lol. Just because we aren't throwing around VJ Meltons and saying he is only a role player doesn't mean we don't think he is flawless or perfect either. Its funny that you say this and then go on to act like Tre is by using offensive star. You don't see the contradiction there lol? You are saying we are acting like VJ is perfect when you are literally handwaving Tre's flaws. Yes he is an insane shooter from all over, has great size for a guard but the reality is that he was awful on defense and didn't really bring much else to the table. That is concerning no? There are plenty of insane shooters than enter the league and that's no longer good enough. That is a potential outcome even if personally I think there may be some playmaking upside and the 6'10 wingspan SHOULD in theory at least be a problem in the passing lanes....but that CURRENTLY does not show up on tape or in the stats...so its equally possible that he just doesn't get much better there...whereas VJ's stats and tape do point to an improving jumper and more offensive upside as he improved on that front as the season went on. That doesn't mean he is a lock to continue and I do worry about his height and his handle is fine but not creation good yet either. my fear with VJ is that we take him and one of the other guys pop more BUT again the tape, the stats, and the factual seen improvement AS WELL as some future prognosis are why I also think he is the current best bet as a whole package and I feel like that is downplayed too easily.

as for Harper, he is elite at getting to the rim AND finishing..which is an actual special trait, built like a tank and is a good FT% so I don't worry about the shot much...plus he has been around the NBA his whole life...I think he is the real deal ;perfect fit next to our guards too and imo can guard 3s due to his girth. He is the actual pick for me but I think the Spurs feel the same way and Fox and Castle aren't good enough to stop that.

Lol, not sure why you just think VJs progression needs to be held up on this pedestal. It's a weird hill to die on. Tre Johnson also improved in the year. Also acting like Tre can't improve at all, is the same stuff that was said about Ace.

Least with Ace dude was a douche and wasn't interviewing well. There has been nothing but positivty about Tre Johnson.

You also didnt' address my point that as we toe the line between the past and future, VJ is not a good fit. This offensive star that many think he'll become won't be in the same timeline as Embiid and George, while Johnson could give you 15-17 ppg from the get go, with a lot of room to grow and potentially be a star.

And you really think NN is going to play a rook WHO DOESNT PLAY DEFENSE enough minutes to get 15-17 ppg???

Yes, McCain played when he's not a good defender. VJ is just going to help with spacing on this team. Also if **** hits the fan and Embiid/George are out, all the more chance for Tre to shine, while VJ likely has to take more lumps to develop.

[eyeatoma]

There is great chance Nurse benches Tre for his bad defense for one. I also don't agree that VJ is a bad fit. His athleticism alone gives us something we don't have on the roster atm. Even if the Melton bull is real...Melton was really good next to Maxey and Harden because he didn't need the ball, spaced the floor and defended. Even if VJ is just a 3 and D guy ATM, that fits in with every team. Him in the open court with Maxey would be a movie and is exactly what Morey said we'd try to add. The whole timeline thing is actually the selling point for VJ as he can contribute off the ball and without getting plays run for him so if Biid isn't cooked and PG has a return season, you don't have a guy who needs reps just spotting up in the corner. Honestly Tre's upside probably comes into play more if we didn't have Biid and PG eating up possesions....as I think his real upside has him on ball more.

I do not hate Tre at all I just think people are being unfair to VJ in ways they aren't to him and it is weird.

Tre is a movement shoote,r you don't think he can play off ball? Ace is also a 3 and D guy he could have done the same thing on this team until he develops. He would actually have fit on the team with all our players.

I don't hate VJ either, I just think it's so clear who will be the offensive star.

And again, if he's that good Morey wouldn't be trying to get the #2 pick. I'll be honest though, I hope he doesn't because that screams Fultz all over again. Analysts say that Harper will have to rework his shot.

[the_process]

The fit of Melton in the backcourt with Maxey was always overblown. It wasn’t great.

If you are keeping the 3rd pick, you are tacitly admitting the current timeline is done and the focus is on the future.

Therefore, you take the player with the highest offensive upside. Offense is what makes stars. Since Flagg and Harper will probably not be available at 3, the player at 3 with the highest offensive upside is Tre Johnson.

[Arsenal]

If we’re taking a 3&D guy I’m taking the guy with more offensive talent and premium size to defend 3 or 4 positions, instead of a small, thin guy who is position locked to the backcourt only.

[Mik317]

Nurse couldn't wait to bench McCain lol and even then he gave better effort in college and in the pros than Tre; not to mention is stronger too which helps.... I don't think McCain was a bad defender in his short stint imo...but it has been a while lol.

but again your " if he's that good Morey wouldn't be trying to get the #2 pick" thing doesn't hold water either....he's trying to get the 2nd because Harper is a tier up IMO and thats IF he is trying to get it as this is smokescreen season (I honestly feel like all of the Ace stuff is part of it and he will just take him at 3 lol) but even then...doesn't that also apply to Tre? If he is as good as you say, then why isn't he going to the Spurs at 2? Why is Morey trying to trade up? Feels like more teams have been linked to VJ actually with even rumors of the Pels trying to come up to get him...why no one seems to be moving up for Tre? See how silly that sounds?

[eyeatoma]

Nurse couldn't wait to bench McCain lol and even then he gave better effort in college and in the pros than Tre; not to mention is stronger too which helps.... I don't think McCain was a bad defender in his short stint imo...but it has been a while lol.

but again your " if he's that good Morey wouldn't be trying to get the #2 pick" thing doesn't hold water either....he's trying to get the 2nd because Harper is a tier up IMO and thats IF he is trying to get it as this is smokescreen season (I honestly feel like all of the Ace stuff is part of it and he will just take him at 3 lol) but even then...doesn't that also apply to Tre? If he is as good as you say, then why isn't he going to the Spurs at 2? Why is Morey trying to trade up? Feels like more teams have been linked to VJ actually with even rumors of the Pels trying to come up to get him...why no one seems to be moving up for Tre? See how silly that sounds?

It's a simple as one has a high chance to be a role player the other has a clearer path to offensive stardom.

I've also been scarred by players who can't shoot or have to do a bunch of stuff to reach their potential.

Nurse would have likely been on the hotseat if he didn't play McCain more. He was that good offensively.

Prototype for Tre Johnson sounds a lot more appealing and a better fit for this team than this theoretical Ant/Oladipo version of VJ.

If he had even a modicum of shot creation I'd be more interested. He's a huge project and would need to be pumped with minutes to get there and it's unlikely on this team. With Tre you can ease him in and develop while also looking to the future.

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[MVP1992]

Would anyone be for offering OKC the LAC pick for our 2026 pick back? I think we can get our Ace Bailey type long wing next draft.

I predict we'll be lottery bound next year.

Who knows where LAC will be when they pivot from Harden and possibly Kawhi Leonard and have cap space. Admittedly, LAC have next to no draft capital until 2030. They've traded away all they can and have horrible swaps on just about every other pick.

Sixers 2026 top 4 protected back for LAC 2028 top 6 protected to OKC?

I'd do that.

[Mik317]

Nurse couldn't wait to bench McCain lol and even then he gave better effort in college and in the pros than Tre; not to mention is stronger too which helps.... I don't think McCain was a bad defender in his short stint imo...but it has been a while lol.

but again your " if he's that good Morey wouldn't be trying to get the #2 pick" thing doesn't hold water either....he's trying to get the 2nd because Harper is a tier up IMO and thats IF he is trying to get it as this is smokescreen season (I honestly feel like all of the Ace stuff is part of it and he will just take him at 3 lol) but even then...doesn't that also apply to Tre? If he is as good as you say, then why isn't he going to the Spurs at 2? Why is Morey trying to trade up? Feels like more teams have been linked to VJ actually with even rumors of the Pels trying to come up to get him...why no one seems to be moving up for Tre? See how silly that sounds?

It's a simple as one has a high chance to be a role player the other has a clearer path to offensive stardom.

I've also been scarred by players who can't shoot or have to do a bunch of stuff to reach their potential.

Nurse would have likely been on the hotseat if he didn't play McCain more. He was that good offensively.

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I just don't agree with that. I think thats the disconnect.

I like Tre. I think his shooting is elite and borderline special. But he also has stiff hips and doesn't get in the paint and doesn't finish when he gets there despite his combine testing. I think its a fair bet that perhaps he can improve on those for sure but its not based on anything beyond vibes and hopes.

I also like VJ. I think his burst is elite and borderline special. But his jumper is still projection and his handle is weak and he has no left hand..and despite his combine measurements I worry about his size. I think it is a fair bet he can improve on those....and here is the difference, he got better as a shooter, his finishing issues looked moreso him being used to just going over lower level guys like a lot of young prospects. This leaves the handle and the size as the two worry points which leaves him as a good starter if he doesn't fix them or overcomes it. If Tre's stiff hips, effort, and finishing woes doesn't get fixed, he is a microwave scorer guy who gets played off the court in big games...which again is why I understand why some might feel safer taking VJ. One showed in season improvement on his flaws and the other did not IMO thats the difference is projection rn even if I'd personally probably take the scoring bet.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

You can ease either Edgecombe or Tre in and develop them while also looking to the future. It's a tough choice to make if it is in fact between the two of them. I'm fine with either player at the end of the day. As much as some of you believe the Ace idea is dead, I don't know that it truly is. We've had a ton of bull$hit land in our laps via social media over the last week. Every angle, rumor, or myth has arguments one way or the other attached to them.

If we're staying at 3 (I think we are), then we have three legitimate options in that range to choose from. Edgecombe, Johnson, and of course Bailey. I don't see us trading down because Morey is probably going to ask for a lot in order to do so. I don't see us trading up because regardless of fit, the Spurs are locked in on Harper unless they get an offer that blows them away. Apparently, we are unable to meet San Antonios needs without making more deals on our end, so I really don't see it happening.

Switching gears, I don't get the arguments over VJ and Tre. For an entire month it was all Ace Bailey crap and now we've moved on to hating either Edgecombe or Johnson. I don't see any circumstance where we go wrong taking VJ or Tre. Bailey is a little more volatile obviously. As talented as he is, I'm staying away from that at this point. We don't need another diva here. We need ball players that want to be here and want to win and are willing to work their ass of to do so. To me, Edgecombe and Johnson are two tireless workers who want to be as good as they can be. Regardless of their qualities, skills, or lack there of, whoever we draft is going to start out as a role player for this team. James Harden was a sixth man in OKC before he blew up. With VJ, I could see him getting the Kawhi treatment until he's ready to take the next step. We can't afford to be wrong about this pick, but I don't see us going wrong with either VJ or Johnson. Neither player is going to fail in this league.

Once again, whoever we draft will be coming into a situation with a team that is expected to compete and win in the east. There's a different level being played here assuming Embiid comes back halfway decent and Maxey and George can remain healthy. We aren't trying to lose. Nick Nurse is not going to be trying to lose games. It may very well just go that way because guys are cooked or injured, but that's not the initial plan going into the season. We are expected to win. Our rookie is going to get minutes, but he's going to be learning in a winning environment and I think that helps players develop more efficiently. Ace Bailey meanwhile might go to Nets and average 16 ppg on a team that wins 24 games all season long. That's great for him, but I'll take developing in a winning environment over playing on loser teams that are tanking for more top draft picks.

[76ciology]

Two main issues for me:

1. Swing Skills

When it comes to swing skills for star potential, VJ has a stronger base.

He’s shown flashes of shot creation off the dribble, even with basic handles. He’s got a quick first step, explosive athleticism, strong C&S 3pt%, solid FT%, and encouraging floater %. His HC rim freq is 2x higher than Tre’s.

He’s often compared to Melton or Zhaire, but context matters, he played a primary or secondary scoring role even alongside NBA guys like Ayton, Hield, and Gordon in Olympic qualifiers. That suggests more than just a 3&D profile. There are clear signs he can be above average in the key swing areas.

Tre, on the other hand, is starting from a much lower baseline. His HC rim freq, FT rate as an alpha, rebounding, and defense are all weak. Not 4s or 5s out of 10, more like 1s or 2s. He avoids contact, settles for jumpers, and doesn’t stand out on D or the boards. Yes, he’s an elite shooting prospect, but in other areas, even reaching average is a big leap.

With VJ, you can’t say he’s one of the worst creators in this class. With Tre, you can argue he’s near the bottom in HC rim pressure, FT drawing as an alpha, rebounding, and defense. VJ is clearly further along in the swing skills that usually separate role players from stars.

Adding to that, Pelton’s projection model, which adjusts for level of competition and includes performance pre-college, ranked Kneuppel and VJ very high. The reason? Their foundational skills showed clear signs even before the NCAA. For example, Kon showed strong indicators in the EYBL circuit. I’d assume it also factors Edgecombe role and #s in the olympic qualifiers. In contrast, the things we want to believe about Tre’s upside, like improvement as a rim attacker, being a foul merchant like most alpha perimeter scorers, decent rebounder or defender, are more projection than proof. It’s more imagined than real.

2. Projected role

If Tre’s going to be average at best on D and the glass, then he has to carry your offense as a clear #1. And that level isn’t Oladipo, it’s SGA, Steph, Jokic, Wembanyama, Embiid, Giannis, Luka, prime Harden, Ant. Top 1% of the league scorers.

That kind of leap is a lot to bet on, especially with a prospect like Tre or even Harper or VJ. I’d be more open to taking that swing if we were talking about Flagg. The distance Tre has to cover from where he is to being that guy is massive.

With VJ, the path to becoming a 20-25 PPG two-way guard is more grounded. The tools are there, he just needs refinement and reps.

Bottom line:
Tre’s ceiling depends on too many leaps in low-baseline areas. VJ’s case is built on traits that are already flashing at real levels of competition.

[Black Mage]

What people also don't seem to realize, is that this theoretical version of VJ, is never going to be around when Embiid is here. He will need 3-4 years of development to become the player some of ya'll are talking about, while Tre has great potential to be a league leading scorer and can immediately contribute from day 1 on a team that is trying to be competitive. He is the most ready player apart from Flagg and Harper, and has star potential as well.

No one should be planning things around Joel's timeline b/c we have no idea if he'll be healthy or for how long. You take the guy that can be the best 2-4 years down the line b/c that's Maxey and McCain's timeline.

And Tre wouldn't be on Joel's timeline either, he isn't fixing his defensive issues in his rookie season. So he wouldn't be seen the floor come playoff time.

[MVP1992]

What people also don't seem to realize, is that this theoretical version of VJ, is never going to be around when Embiid is here. He will need 3-4 years of development to become the player some of ya'll are talking about, while Tre has great potential to be a league leading scorer and can immediately contribute from day 1 on a team that is trying to be competitive. He is the most ready player apart from Flagg and Harper, and has star potential as well.

No one should be planning things around Joel's timeline b/c we have no idea if he'll be healthy or for how long. You take the guy that can be the best 2-4 years down the line b/c that's Maxey and McCain's timeline.

And Tre wouldn't be on Joel's timeline either, he isn't fixing his defensive issues in his rookie season. So he wouldn't be seen the floor come playoff time.

Might sound silly, but I'd be down for playing Embiid up to 24mins per game without sitting out back to back games.

Let Embiid anchor the 2nd unit to not allow 15-0 pt swings against us in the 3rd or 4th that we're so used to.

Play him 6mins per quarter (just an example, not the rule).

Let the youth become the system. Have Embiid be the stop gap 'get a bucket' talent, not the be all end all offensive system player he's been so relied upon.

I'm done with that. He's clearly on the way out. Use him in bursts. I don't want to see mopey sluggish Embiid slowing down our game.

Dare I say it, I want Embiid to be our HOF, sometimes MVP calibre 'super role player' (on ~$60 million ******* dollars).

[Black Mage]

Don't count the spurs out yet. There is no incentive for them to trade with the Sixers right now. My guess is Spurs wait until they are on the clock to see if Bucks engage about Giannis. If Bucks don't budge, the Sixers will still be there with the same offer.

[Black Mage]

Might sound silly, but I'd be down for playing Embiid up to 24mins per game without sitting out back to back games.

Let Embiid anchor the 2nd unit to not allow 15-0 pt swings against us in the 3rd or 4th that we're so used to.

Play him 6mins per quarter.

Let the youth become the system. Have Embiid be the stop gap 'get a bucket' talent, not the be all end all offensive system player he's been so relied upon.

I'm done with that. He's clearly on the way out. Use him in bursts. I don't want to see mopey sluggish Embiid slowing down our game.

Dare I say it, I want Embiid to be our HOF, sometimes MVP calibre 'super role player' (on ~$60 million ******* dollars).

Morey in general needs to reign in Nurse and his tendency to overplay his stars; especially smaller guards. Maxey, McCain and them should not be plaing more than 30-32 mins a night. If we end up with VJ/Tre/Harper and bring back Grimes; there is no excuse for Nurse to play heavy minutes.

[MVP1992]

.

[76ciology]

I think the Spurs are more likely to trade for KD than Giannis. A trade for Giannis would completely empty their war chest, which isn’t necessary given how bright their future already looks. If they simply stay the course, there’s a strong chance they can contend for a title down the line.

KD, on the other hand, is a more attainable target. Similar to how the Sixers paired Embiid with multiple secondary stars, the Spurs wouldn’t need to give up much to get KD. He can help them for the next two seasons, and they’d still have enough assets left to either trade for another co-star or hope someone like Fox grows into that role.

Another angle is legacy. Wemby has a real shot at being in the GOAT conversation with the likes of LeBron and MJ. Adding Giannis might help the team in the short term, but it could also overshadow Wemby’s rise and individual legacy.

Personally, my recommended path for the Spurs is to draft VJ and trade for KD. VJ offers immediate value as a two-way, high-impact player who can shoot, while also having long-term upside. KD can elevate the team in the short term, giving them a real shot at contending over the next two seasons. Once KD’s window closes, the Spurs can pivot, either VJ or Fox may emerge as a legitimate secondary star, or they can use their remaining assets to trade for KD’s eventual replacement.

[Black Mage]

I am anti-trade; but let's say Brooklyn fears Utah or Washington scooping up Ace (I could see Ainge doing it). I think a trade structure for me would need to be:

Johnson
#8, #19, 2026 Nets 2nd, 2027 Philly 1st protections extended to 1-20 (currently 1-8)

Oubre/Drummond/Gordon
#3, #35

Call me crazy, but at 8, I'd go Coward and at 19 either Fleming or CMB (yeah, I think CMB falls). Johnson fills a starter's role so Coward and Fleming/CMB start on unit 2. Coward feels like Jalen Williams to me, flew up drafts boards and pre-draft interviews and workouts didn't slow Williams down at all. I know Kon/JK or Maluach are probably all there, but Coward feels like that guy that just hits.

[Black Mage]

I think the Spurs are more likely to trade for KD than Giannis. A trade for Giannis would completely empty their war chest, which isn’t necessary given how bright their future already looks. If they simply stay the course, there’s a strong chance they can contend for a title down the line.

KD, on the other hand, is a more attainable target. Similar to how the Sixers paired Embiid with multiple secondary stars, the Spurs wouldn’t need to give up much to get KD. He can help them for the next two seasons, and they’d still have enough assets left to either trade for another co-star or hope someone like Fox grows into that role.

Another angle is legacy. Wemby has a real shot at being in the GOAT conversation with the likes of LeBron and MJ. Adding Giannis might help the team in the short term, but it could also overshadow Wemby’s rise and individual legacy.

Personally, my recommended path for the Spurs is to draft VJ and trade for KD. VJ offers immediate value as a two-way, high-impact player who can shoot, while also having long-term upside. KD can elevate the team in the short term, giving them a real shot at contending over the next two seasons. Once KD’s window closes, the Spurs can pivot, either VJ or Fox may emerge as a legitimate secondary star, or they can use their remaining assets to trade for KD’s eventual replacement.

I still think Giannis is their target b/c he'll give you at least 3-4 more years of Top 5-10 player in the game production. Regardless, my argument remains the same, Spurs will wait until they are on the clock.

IMO, Harper is too redundant to what they already have making the value of picking up more picks to use to go after a star while only dropping down one spot and still getting a prospect that fits better makes more sense. Spurs get immediate prospect while accumulating more assets to use to chase Giannis or another star at the deadline.

[MVP1992]

I am anti-trade; but let's say Brooklyn fears Utah or Washington scooping up Ace (I could see Ainge doing it). I think a trade structure for me would need to be:

Johnson
#8, #19, 2026 Nets 2nd, 2027 Philly 1st protections extended to 1-20 (currently 1-8)

Oubre/Drummond/Gordon
#3, #35

Call me crazy, but at 8, I'd go Coward and at 19 either Fleming or CMB (yeah, I think CMB falls). Johnson fills a starter's role so Coward and Fleming/CMB start on unit 2. Coward feels like Jalen Williams to me, flew up drafts boards and pre-draft interviews and workouts didn't slow Williams down at all. I know Kon/JK or Maluach are probably all there, but Coward feels like that guy that just hits.

I'd do that trade.
When I squint and listen to Coward speak, I have young MJ nostalgia. He's smart. He has the physical tools. He has the work ethic. I like his style. He sees the big picture.

His confidence doesn't come across as arrogance or entitlement, it feels genuinely earned with self awareness.

To hear the contrast to Ace Bailey’s version of confidence, jump to 28:07 where Cedric talks about taking a shot that he had confidence in taking that may or may not have technically been the best option, but he was confident.

@LEAGUEHIM has provided the chapter breakdown in the comments.

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