Better Return: Siakam or KD

[OhCanada]

Brandon Ingram is an allstar in the East if he stays healthy. Jalen Green is terrible. Houston lost the series against GSW because Udoka wasn't aloud to bench Jalen Green. 37% FG, 29% 3PT, 67% FT 13PPG and he was weak. Offered nothing when his shot wasnt falling. Ingram is much better.

Ochai vs Brooks is debatable. Brooks is the better player but Agbaji maybe prefered for a younger team so its situational. Raptors are probably happier with Agbaji, Suns are probably happier with Brooks.

#10 vs Jakobe, Shead and #39. Suns are probably going to pick Derik Queen here at #10. Shead and Walter had good rookie seasons which is very promising. Toronto probably gets another good player at 39 as well. Would they trade Shead, Walter and 39 for #10? Probably not. But the value of the #10 is still worth more because of the potential to acquire an all nba or all defensive player.

Forwards who will have stronger All-Star cases next year in the East: Evan Mobley, Jaylen Brown, Karl-Anthony Towns, Pascal Siakam, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Paolo Banchero, Bam Adebayo, Joel Embiid (if healthy), Franz Wagner, and Jalen Johnson.

Ingram and Barnes will have to win a spot over four of those players to get one of the forward spots.

If you add in guards, you're looking at: Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, Derrick White, Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Haliburton, Cade Cunningham, Tyler Herro, Trae Young, Tyrese Maxey, LaMelo Ball, and Desmond Bane. That's 11 names for five spots.

That leaves six guards and four forwards, not including Barnes and Ingram, competing for two wildcard All-Star spots. You're effectively betting that the Raptors will be a Top 6 team next season if you think either Barnes or Ingram will be an All-Star.

What chance do they have to become a Top 6 seed? They're unquestionably behind Cleveland, Indiana, New York, and Orlando. They'll be behind a healthy Sixers team. That leaves one spot in the Top 6 between Detroit, Atlanta, Chicago, Miami, and Milwaukee. All five teams finished ahead of Toronto last season. Grange reported that the Raptors are aiming to be in the mix for the Conference Finals, which would be a historic year-over-year improvement for a team this mediocre.

All in all, any evaluation of this Siakam return predicated on Ingram's future as an All-Star or even a healthy starter is based on incredible assumptions.

So what are we calling him a fringe allstar for a .500 team. Thats still better than Jalen Green no matter how you look at it. Your basically proving my point, theres a strong case to be made that Ingram will be an allstar next year if he stays healthy.

[Scase]

I'm convinced the people who voted for Durant have never seen Jalen Green play and/or don't know who the most likely player(s) are on the board at 10 in this draft.

Did you see Bruce Brown play?

The level of homerism from some people in here is insane lol. There is no world in which the Siakam return was better, and people trying to use the downstream trades is such a BS argument. The 10th pick in a deep draft is worth more than all 3 picks we got.

[Merit]

Difficult to compare directly.

Both teams got fleeced pretty badly. Ujiri got some of that value back when we traded for Brandon Ingram but Ingram himself is damaged goods and huge injury risk.And still doesn't change the fact that we got fleeced either way.

Suns on the other hand got none of their future picks back and potentially made the situaiton worse for those draft picks' value because their roster was just made worse. A lot worse. I don't know what they want to do with Green but they also got Booker and Beal? So they just downgraded their talent and the fit is even worse. I see Suns just got a new GM and he's sure off to a terrible start.

We’re talking about fleecing because Pascal is killing it this playoffs. Pascal’s value was largely neglected and diminished on this board, much on the same way FVV, Jak and Scottie’s value also were/are.

Revisionist history aside, if Pascal had been traded a summer earlier we could probably have received more for him. Having said that, we did quite well. We got younger, got two firsts and got Brandon Ingram/Ochai/Shead/Etc.. It’s at minimum a wash for me.

What revisionist history? WTF are you even talking about? I've been saying the same thing about this trade since day one. My opinion isn't this board's opinion as not everyone agrees with each other anyway.

WTF are you even talking about? My opinion isn’t this board’s opinion since not everyone agrees with each other anyway.

Now that saying nothing is out of the way, I was not attacking you. I was speaking to the general sentiment on the board. Like I said, it’s a wash for me.

[kalel123]

We’re talking about fleecing because Pascal is killing it this playoffs. Pascal’s value was largely neglected and diminished on this board, much on the same way FVV, Jak and Scottie’s value also were/are.

Revisionist history aside, if Pascal had been traded a summer earlier we could probably have received more for him. Having said that, we did quite well. We got younger, got two firsts and got Brandon Ingram/Ochai/Shead/Etc.. It’s at minimum a wash for me.

What revisionist history? WTF are you even talking about? I've been saying the same thing about this trade since day one. My opinion isn't this board's opinion as not everyone agrees with each other anyway.

WTF are you even talking about? My opinion isn’t this board’s opinion since not everyone agrees with each other anyway.

Now that saying nothing is out of the way, I was not attacking you. I was speaking to the general sentiment on the board. Like I said, it’s a wash for me.

If you want to speak to general sentiment of the board, then do it without quoting someone who has nothing to do with it or whatever weird **** you got going on here.

[OhCanada]

The ppl saying 10 is the best asset - like that means nothing comes Thursday. Walter could be better than who is selected at 10 on Wednesday

The last 6 #10 picks.

Cody Williams, Cason Wallace, Johnny Davis, Ziare Williams, Jalen Smith, Cam Reddish,

Cason Wallace is pretty good but none of those players are way better than Shead or Walter. Now alot of that could be who's making the picks, maybe its just a random anamoly, or a convenient trend to support my claim. Its also just the truth. The #10 pick doesn't guarantee you a starbplayer or even a roatation player as we can clearly see only one player in the past 6 years is a rotation player.

[DreamTeam09]

The ppl saying 10 is the best asset - like that means nothing comes Thursday. Walter could be better than who is selected at 10 on Wednesday

The last 6 #10 picks.

Cody Williams, Cason Wallace, Johnny Davis, Ziare Williams, Jalen Smith, Cam Reddish,

Cason Wallace is pretty good but none of those players are way better than Shead or Walter. Now alot of that could be who's making the picks, maybe its just a random anamoly, or a convenient trend to support my claim. Its also just the truth. The #10 pick doesn't guarantee you a starbplayer or even a roatation player as we can clearly see only one player in the past 6 years is a rotation player.

Draft picks are cool to fantasize about & spew about by pundits & w/e, but all that goes out the way on draft day... The goal should be to get an NBA player you can build with or trade for value in the future. Your #1 pick could be Rischarser or Cooper or Bennett or Cade

#10 like you listed, highly meh

*Yes ino the best players are usually at the top of the drafts, yes picks are needed/valuable

[CazOnReal]

I'm convinced the people who voted for Durant have never seen Jalen Green play and/or don't know who the most likely player(s) are on the board at 10 in this draft.

Did you see Bruce Brown play?

I did.

Did you see Green play? At least Bruce was an expiring and the FO managed to turn what little they had into Ochai, Ingram & Walter. That's part of the return with Pascal i.e. what did they do with what they got back.

Do you think the Suns are going to somehow make the same recovery with one pick, a bad player who they're stuck with for 2 more years and a poopoo platter of seconds? Two of those picks are in the 50s! In this draft! Where everyone and their mother keeps saying the latter half of the draft has thinned out due to the NBL!

[tecumseh18]

The ppl saying 10 is the best asset - like that means nothing comes Thursday. Walter could be better than who is selected at 10 on Wednesday

The last 6 #10 picks.

Cody Williams, Cason Wallace, Johnny Davis, Ziare Williams, Jalen Smith, Cam Reddish,

Cason Wallace is pretty good but none of those players are way better than Shead or Walter. Now alot of that could be who's making the picks, maybe its just a random anamoly, or a convenient trend to support my claim. Its also just the truth. The #10 pick doesn't guarantee you a starbplayer or even a roatation player as we can clearly see only one player in the past 6 years is a rotation player.

It's so gratifying to read a sensible post in this swamp of negativity.

Also, I would like to alert people to the non-zero possibility that Ingram (#2 overall) will be healthy under the care of our elite medical staff and a really good player, and perfectly complements Scottie on the court. Just in case it comes as a complete shock and a few RealGMers go into cardiac arrest.

[Basketball_Jones]

I'm convinced the people who voted for Durant have never seen Jalen Green play and/or don't know who the most likely player(s) are on the board at 10 in this draft.

Did you see Bruce Brown play?

I did.

Did you see Green play? At least Bruce was an expiring and the FO managed to turn what little they had into Ochai, Ingram & Walter. That's part of the return with Pascal i.e. what did they do with what they got back.

Do you think the Suns are going to somehow make the same recovery with one pick, a bad player who they're stuck with for 2 more years and a poopoo platter of seconds? Two of those picks are in the 50s! In this draft! Where everyone and their mother keeps saying the latter half of the draft has thinned out due to the NBL!

I’m judging solely on the initial return not the follow up moves. Let’s see what the Suns do if they flip Green and who they draft and let the ink dry on the deal first lol. Fair is fair.

[GLF]

Why are people acting like we didn’t take Bruce in the trade with the intention of trading him ourselves lol. We tried to trade him right away but didn’t get the offers we liked so we held onto him. But the plan was always to trade him, he was never a part of our future. Masai held onto him so long people on here were saying the most we could get for him now is a 2nd round pick. We got freaking BI for him lol. Y’all are too much man. Anything just to hate on our front office for the millionth time lol

[GLF]

It’s also funny that all of a sudden now the number 10 pick is such a big deal when people were acting like the sky was falling when Raptors fell to 9th. When it’s Raptors it ain’t **** but when it’s other teams is God’s gift lol. Oh and Jalen is trash. Can he improve, sure, I never give up on young players, but if y’all are as hard on Scottie as you are y’all should be disgusted by Jalen if you actually watch him play. Growth isn’t linear, but he hasn’t grown at all. Scottie looked amazing in his first playoffs before Embiid injured him. Can’t say the same for Jalen lol. But hey, the negative people on this board think everyone else’s young players have potential and they give everyone else’s young players grace except our own. Our young players are who they are and won’t improve much because they ain’t **** lol. Rinse, wash, repeat

[GLF]

Last thing, Pacers signed Bruce to that crazy contract with the intention of trading him. They needed someone to take on that money so they can use them in a trade for a star. When they got Pascal they got praised for giving Bruce that contract because they were thinking ahead and it worked out. We do the same pretty much when we took Bruce in that trade. Instead of getting a second round pick like most were worried would happen bc we waited so long, we got a star as well in BI (when healthy). But for some reason Pacers are smart and Masai is trash and can’t do anything right lol. You really can’t make this up lol. Anyway, nothing shocks me anymore. When I see certain people posted I already know exactly what they probably said. And when someone replies to them and forces me to see what they said I’m always right. They’re so predictable at this point. Just negative and complain for the sake of it lol

[WiggOuts]

The Suns trade was obviously better but wtf did they do to their team. They have Book, Beal and now Green, I can't see any 2 of those guys playing well together

[Basketball_Jones]

For 2 months of Pascal that trade is very good even before considering the future asset flipping.

I think this sums it up and EVERYONE needs to read it because the guy above is freaking out for no reason

[CazOnReal]

I’m judging solely on the initial return not the follow up moves. Let’s see what the Suns do if they flip Green and who they draft and let the ink dry on the deal first lol. Fair is fair.

What - with all the malpractice we have been powerless to do anything but witness over the past 3 years - makes you think the Suns have a chance of coming out on top with this return from KD?

At least the Raptors got 3 first round picks from Siakam. Yeah 2/3 of them were in a perceived weak draft but the Raptors having a much better draft history than Phoenix over the past 5 years and again, they made good use of the assets they got. It's not like the #10 pick is some golden ticket given the outcome for the past decade of 10th overall picks has been nor is it impossible the Suns misuse it in a trade with Brooks or Green. And as meh as Brown was with us, he's a proven playoff performer (Denver) whereas Green justified trading him with how awful he was in 6/7 games against the Warriors.

Why are people acting like we didn’t take Bruce in the trade with the intention of trading him ourselves lol

Because it supports the narratives once the goalposts shift to suit said narrative

[Basketball_Jones]

Seems like a no brainer that the Suns return is better.....but Raptors did fine in the long run with the Siakam trade.

I think this needs to be stickied or something and everyone needs to read it because the guy above is freaking out for some reason

[Basketball_Jones]

I’m judging solely on the initial return not the follow up moves. Let’s see what the Suns do if they flip Green and who they draft and let the ink dry on the deal first lol. Fair is fair.

What - with all the malpractice we have been powerless to do anything but witness over the past 3 years - makes you think the Suns have a chance of coming out on top with this return from KD?

At least the Raptors got 3 first round picks from Siakam. Yeah 2/3 of them were in a perceived weak draft but the Raptors having a much better draft history than Phoenix over the past 5 years and again, they made good use of the assets they got. It's not like the #10 pick is some golden ticket given the outcome for the past decade of 10th overall picks has been nor is it impossible the Suns misuse it in a trade with Brooks or Green. And as meh as Brown was with us, he's a proven playoff performer (Denver) whereas Green justified trading him with how awful he was in 6/7 games against the Warriors.

Why are people acting like we didn’t take Bruce in the trade with the intention of trading him ourselves lol

Because it supports the narratives once the goalposts shift to suit said narrative

Fine you win. Masai is allowed time to make deals and the trade better and the Suns aren’t. Masai is god I’m sorry.

[CazOnReal]

Fine you win. Masai is allowed time to make deals and the trade better and the Suns aren’t. Masai is god I’m sorry.

That didn't answer my question.

What - with all the malpractice we have been powerless to do anything but witness over the past 3 years - makes you think the Suns have a chance of coming out on top with this return from KD?

Because no one is arguing they can't make trades. But there is zero reason given the Suns FO's recent history to be confident in them somehow navigating this well.

They traded an unprotected 2013 1st for 3 terrible firsts to dump Bradley Beal without having a deal lined up that Beal would approve of before they said yes to that trade. This is the FO you think has a shot of righting the ship?

[Basketball_Jones]

Fine you win. Masai is allowed time to make deals and the trade better and the Suns aren’t. Masai is god I’m sorry.

That didn't answer my question.

What - with all the malpractice we have been powerless to do anything but witness over the past 3 years - makes you think the Suns have a chance of coming out on top with this return from KD?

Because no one is arguing they can't make trades. But there is zero reason given the Suns FO's recent history to be confident in them somehow navigating this well.

They traded an unprotected 2013 1st for 3 terrible firsts to dump Bradley Beal without having a deal lined up that Beal would approve of before they said yes to that trade. This is the FO you think has a shot of righting the ship?

I’m not interested in any of this. I judged solely on the initial trades not the follow ups. Go and argue for Masai with someone else I’m not even insulting him.

[PushDaRock]

Did you see Bruce Brown play?

I did.

Did you see Green play? At least Bruce was an expiring and the FO managed to turn what little they had into Ochai, Ingram & Walter. That's part of the return with Pascal i.e. what did they do with what they got back.

Do you think the Suns are going to somehow make the same recovery with one pick, a bad player who they're stuck with for 2 more years and a poopoo platter of seconds? Two of those picks are in the 50s! In this draft! Where everyone and their mother keeps saying the latter half of the draft has thinned out due to the NBL!

I’m judging solely on the initial return not the follow up moves. Let’s see what the Suns do if they flip Green and who they draft and let the ink dry on the deal first lol. Fair is fair.

Well, they're planning on keeping Green so you should be evaluating it as if that will be the case for now.