Rumors, Random Thoughts, and non-Threadworthy Posts 18.0 Dave Cowens drove a taxi

[babyjax13]

If there is a lesson for this board from the early off-season trades -- teams value good basketball players more than they fear "bad contract". We demonize so many players that teams actively seek out for their teams. If a player can help on the court, they aren't as toxic as the posts here constantly suggest.

I disagree. I think the real lesson is that terrible GMs are back. Can't wait to see more Billy King level moves - though I hope to god it is not by our questionable front office (that said, I don't think our FO is completely atrocious ... I just hate Danny Ainge and I think he has lost a lot of value on the margins).

[daoneandonly]

Would Bkn do #8, #22, 2027 frp, 2029 frp, and Mann for AD?

[Texas Chuck]

If there is a lesson for this board from the early off-season trades -- teams value good basketball players more than they fear "bad contract". We demonize so many players that teams actively seek out for their teams. If a player can help on the court, they aren't as toxic as the posts here constantly suggest.

I disagree. I think the real lesson is that terrible GMs are back. Can't wait to see more Billy King level moves - though I hope to god it is not by our questionable front office (that said, I don't think our FO is completely atrocious ... I just hate Danny Ainge and I think he has lost a lot of value on the margins).

Which GM specifically do you think is horrible based on these moves?

[Snakebites]

I think so far this is mostly what was expected (KD, Celtics cap saving moves, Magic add a guard) moreso than the craziest offseason ever many were discussing. The in-season trading was crazier than this though.

This level of activity before the draft seems like it’s pretty uncommon.

[psman2]

Would Bkn do #9, #22, 2027 frp, 2029 frp, and Mann for AD?

Maybe if they have another star already lined up first. But AD alone is not changing their stars, much better to tank it out another year while they own their pick and then evaluate their roster at that point.

[Godaddycurse]

If there is a lesson for this board from the early off-season trades -- teams value good basketball players more than they fear "bad contract". We demonize so many players that teams actively seek out for their teams. If a player can help on the court, they aren't as toxic as the posts here constantly suggest.

I disagree. I think the real lesson is that terrible GMs are back. Can't wait to see more Billy King level moves - though I hope to god it is not by our questionable front office (that said, I don't think our FO is completely atrocious ... I just hate Danny Ainge and I think he has lost a lot of value on the margins).

Which GM specifically do you think is horrible based on these moves?

Dumarrrr (and nico)

[Texas Chuck]

I disagree. I think the real lesson is that terrible GMs are back. Can't wait to see more Billy King level moves - though I hope to god it is not by our questionable front office (that said, I don't think our FO is completely atrocious ... I just hate Danny Ainge and I think he has lost a lot of value on the margins).

Which GM specifically do you think is horrible based on these moves?

Dumarrrr (and nico)

Nico shouldn't be deemed terrible for either Gafford or Kyrie. Even if someone wouldn't have done either, both are defensible. Obviously his previous work predates this, but I was talking about this week.

I don't like the Poole deal, but some posters I respect think he upgraded his team so.....?

[Godaddycurse]

Which GM specifically do you think is horrible based on these moves?

Dumarrrr (and nico)

Nico shouldn't be deemed terrible for either Gafford or Kyrie. Even if someone wouldn't have done either, both are defensible. Obviously his previous work predates this, but I was talking about this week.

I don't like the Poole deal, but some posters I respect think he upgraded his team so.....?

i threw in nico's name because he overpaid to dump salary in the past (bullock comes to mind)
i think poole trade is short sighted and could back fire but on paper based on last year its an upgrade so we will see

[ReggiesKnicks]

Dumarrrr (and nico)

Nico shouldn't be deemed terrible for either Gafford or Kyrie. Even if someone wouldn't have done either, both are defensible. Obviously his previous work predates this, but I was talking about this week.

I don't like the Poole deal, but some posters I respect think he upgraded his team so.....?

i threw in nico's name because he overpaid to dump salary in the past (bullock comes to mind)
i think poole trade is short sighted and could back fire but on paper based on last year its an upgrade so we will see

What is the worst-case scenario for the Poole trade aside from injury since Poole isn't an injury risk?

Poole somehow regresses even though he is a career 88% FT Shooter.

What's funny is Poole has one outlier year in his career, and it was last year, 2024. He had an outlier TS+, Outlier BPM, Outlier FTR, etc. 2024 Jordan Poole, the player voted in the worst contracts in the NBA by multiple sources I have seen, was an outlier in terms of his NBA career.

NBA fans tend to be some of the most in-the-moment sports fans since so much of NBA fandom is consumed via the internet and social media, where we are bouncing around so quickly we can't even have multiple meals before analyzing a player 3-4 times.

The reality is that nothing about McCollum for Poole is short-sighted. Poole is marginally better, significantly younger, and a more natural shooter on a timeline better fit to the Pelicans' core. Systematically, Poole fills an identical role as C.J. McCollum does in New Orleans, but is realistically better. All Dumars did was add 1 year to the archetype in New Orleans.

What exactly is going to backfire?

New Orleans also saves ~5 million in salary in 2025-2026, space they needed to breathe to build a proper team under the Tax.

If a good GM made the move Dumars did, people would be saying how smart it is.

[Godaddycurse]

Nico shouldn't be deemed terrible for either Gafford or Kyrie. Even if someone wouldn't have done either, both are defensible. Obviously his previous work predates this, but I was talking about this week.

I don't like the Poole deal, but some posters I respect think he upgraded his team so.....?

i threw in nico's name because he overpaid to dump salary in the past (bullock comes to mind)
i think poole trade is short sighted and could back fire but on paper based on last year its an upgrade so we will see

What is the worst-case scenario for the Poole trade aside from injury since Poole isn't an injury risk?

Poole somehow regresses even though he is a career 88% FT Shooter.

What's funny is Poole has one outlier year in his career, and it was last year, 2024. He had an outlier TS+, Outlier BPM, Outlier FTR, etc. 2024 Jordan Poole, the player voted in the worst contracts in the NBA by multiple sources I have seen, was an outlier in terms of his NBA career.

NBA fans tend to be some of the most in-the-moment sports fans since so much of NBA fandom is consumed via the internet and social media, where we are bouncing around so quickly we can't even have multiple meals before analyzing a player 3-4 times.

The reality is that nothing about McCollum for Poole is short-sighted. Poole is marginally better, significantly younger, and a more natural shooter on a timeline better fit to the Pelicans' core. Systematically, Poole fills an identical role as C.J. McCollum does in New Orleans, but is realistically better. All Dumars did was add 1 year to the archetype in New Orleans.

What exactly is going to backfire?

New Orleans also saves ~5 million in salary in 2025-2026, space they needed to breathe to build a proper team under the Tax.

If a good GM made the move Dumars did, people would be saying how smart it is.

he had 1 good year out of 5 prior to last year (negative BPM outside of 21-22 and this past year) and last year was the only time he's been above average from behind the arc.

[youngcrev]

Question that I don't know where to put regarding an owed pick:

2027 first round draft pick to Brooklyn
At least two years after Philadelphia conveys a 1st round pick to Oklahoma City if this pick is conveyed to Oklahoma City in 2025 or 2026, Philadelphia's 1st round pick to Brooklyn protected for selections 1-8 in 2027 and 1-8 in 2028; if Philadelphia has not conveyed a 1st round pick to Brooklyn by 2028, then Philadelphia will instead convey its 2028 2nd round pick to Brooklyn; Brooklyn may convey the 2028 1st round pick to Phoenix (see Brooklyn Incoming) which may then convey this pick to Washington (see Phoenix Outgoing) [Brooklyn-Philadelphia, 2/10/2022]

For further reference, here is the language on the pick owed to OKC:

2026 first round draft pick to Oklahoma City
Philadelphia's 1st round pick to Oklahoma City protected for selections 1-4 in 2026 and 1-4 in 2027; if Philadelphia has not conveyed a 1st round pick to Oklahoma City by 2027, then Philadelphia will instead convey its 2027 2nd round pick to Oklahoma City [Philadelphia-Oklahoma City, 12/8/2020]

So my question is: Is that pick owed to Brooklyn now just a 2028 top 8 protected 1st that becomes a 2nd round pick if not conveyed? That's what it seems like based on the language of the deal (at least how I'm reading it), but the Sixers do own an extra pick from LAC that would prevent Stepien rules.

Really just circling back to "should the Sixers give a damn about reacquiring this pick in a trade back scenario with the Nets?"

[Godaddycurse]

Question that I don't know where to put regarding an owed pick:

2027 first round draft pick to Brooklyn
At least two years after Philadelphia conveys a 1st round pick to Oklahoma City if this pick is conveyed to Oklahoma City in 2025 or 2026, Philadelphia's 1st round pick to Brooklyn protected for selections 1-8 in 2027 and 1-8 in 2028; if Philadelphia has not conveyed a 1st round pick to Brooklyn by 2028, then Philadelphia will instead convey its 2028 2nd round pick to Brooklyn; Brooklyn may convey the 2028 1st round pick to Phoenix (see Brooklyn Incoming) which may then convey this pick to Washington (see Phoenix Outgoing) [Brooklyn-Philadelphia, 2/10/2022]

For further reference, here is the language on the pick owed to OKC:

2026 first round draft pick to Oklahoma City
Philadelphia's 1st round pick to Oklahoma City protected for selections 1-4 in 2026 and 1-4 in 2027; if Philadelphia has not conveyed a 1st round pick to Oklahoma City by 2027, then Philadelphia will instead convey its 2027 2nd round pick to Oklahoma City [Philadelphia-Oklahoma City, 12/8/2020]

So my question is: Is that pick owed to Brooklyn now just a 2028 top 8 protected 1st that becomes a 2nd round pick if not conveyed? That's what it seems like based on the language of the deal (at least how I'm reading it), but the Sixers do own an extra pick from LAC that would prevent Stepien rules.

Really just circling back to "should the Sixers give a damn about reacquiring this pick in a trade back scenario with the Nets?"

i think its now just a 2028 top 8 protected 1st

[dremill24]

If there is a lesson for this board from the early off-season trades -- teams value good basketball players more than they fear "bad contract". We demonize so many players that teams actively seek out for their teams. If a player can help on the court, they aren't as toxic as the posts here constantly suggest.

I disagree. I think the real lesson is that terrible GMs are back. Can't wait to see more Billy King level moves - though I hope to god it is not by our questionable front office (that said, I don't think our FO is completely atrocious ... I just hate Danny Ainge and I think he has lost a lot of value on the margins).

I think the middle ground is just that in reality, there are less "title or tank only" organizations than there would be if all 30 teams were run by the internet. All organizations come up with their own definitions of success.

[ReggiesKnicks]

i threw in nico's name because he overpaid to dump salary in the past (bullock comes to mind)
i think poole trade is short sighted and could back fire but on paper based on last year its an upgrade so we will see

What is the worst-case scenario for the Poole trade aside from injury since Poole isn't an injury risk?

Poole somehow regresses even though he is a career 88% FT Shooter.

What's funny is Poole has one outlier year in his career, and it was last year, 2024. He had an outlier TS+, Outlier BPM, Outlier FTR, etc. 2024 Jordan Poole, the player voted in the worst contracts in the NBA by multiple sources I have seen, was an outlier in terms of his NBA career.

NBA fans tend to be some of the most in-the-moment sports fans since so much of NBA fandom is consumed via the internet and social media, where we are bouncing around so quickly we can't even have multiple meals before analyzing a player 3-4 times.

The reality is that nothing about McCollum for Poole is short-sighted. Poole is marginally better, significantly younger, and a more natural shooter on a timeline better fit to the Pelicans' core. Systematically, Poole fills an identical role as C.J. McCollum does in New Orleans, but is realistically better. All Dumars did was add 1 year to the archetype in New Orleans.

What exactly is going to backfire?

New Orleans also saves ~5 million in salary in 2025-2026, space they needed to breathe to build a proper team under the Tax.

If a good GM made the move Dumars did, people would be saying how smart it is.

he had 1 good year out of 5 prior to last year (negative BPM outside of 21-22 and this past year) and last year was the only time he's been above average from behind the arc.

You are a smart guy. Tell me the outlier in these numbers:

TS+: 74.9, -23.0, -131.5, 34.0
BPM: 1.0, -1.9, -3.9, 0.4
FTR: 25.1%, 32.5%, 18.5%, 25.9%

You are saying "negative BPM" except out of the 4 years Poole played in the NBA in a rotation, 2 of those years were neutral or positive, one negative, and one an outlier negative.

You can't seriously assess Poole by his 2020 and 2021 seasons, he was 20 and 21 years old playing bench minutes on tanking teams (2020) and < 1,000 minutes in 2021.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Really just circling back to "should the Sixers give a damn about reacquiring this pick in a trade back scenario with the Nets?"

No, they shouldn't care, because it isn't high-variance and is one-and-done.

They need to be getting one of New York's 1st, at minimum.

[Godaddycurse]

What is the worst-case scenario for the Poole trade aside from injury since Poole isn't an injury risk?

Poole somehow regresses even though he is a career 88% FT Shooter.

What's funny is Poole has one outlier year in his career, and it was last year, 2024. He had an outlier TS+, Outlier BPM, Outlier FTR, etc. 2024 Jordan Poole, the player voted in the worst contracts in the NBA by multiple sources I have seen, was an outlier in terms of his NBA career.

NBA fans tend to be some of the most in-the-moment sports fans since so much of NBA fandom is consumed via the internet and social media, where we are bouncing around so quickly we can't even have multiple meals before analyzing a player 3-4 times.

The reality is that nothing about McCollum for Poole is short-sighted. Poole is marginally better, significantly younger, and a more natural shooter on a timeline better fit to the Pelicans' core. Systematically, Poole fills an identical role as C.J. McCollum does in New Orleans, but is realistically better. All Dumars did was add 1 year to the archetype in New Orleans.

What exactly is going to backfire?

New Orleans also saves ~5 million in salary in 2025-2026, space they needed to breathe to build a proper team under the Tax.

If a good GM made the move Dumars did, people would be saying how smart it is.

he had 1 good year out of 5 prior to last year (negative BPM outside of 21-22 and this past year) and last year was the only time he's been above average from behind the arc.

You are a smart guy. Tell me the outlier in these numbers:

TS+: 74.9, -23.0, -131.5, 34.0
BPM: 1.0, -1.9, -3.9, 0.4
FTR: 25.1%, 32.5%, 18.5%, 25.9%

You are saying "negative BPM" except out of the 4 years Poole played in the NBA in a rotation, 2 of those years were neutral or positive, one negative, and one an outlier negative.

You can't seriously assess Poole by his 2020 and 2021 seasons, he was 20 and 21 years old playing bench minutes on tanking teams (2020) and < 1,000 minutes in 2021.

fair re: 2020/2021. The numbers past 4 years still paint him as inconsistent if not negative to me. i'll eat crow on this one if he keeps up his good play

[NYG]

I think so far this is mostly what was expected (KD, Celtics cap saving moves, Magic add a guard) moreso than the craziest offseason ever many were discussing. The in-season trading was crazier than this though.

This level of activity before the draft seems like it’s pretty uncommon.

But in the new CBA... I think most of the activity will occur early

[babyjax13]

Which GM specifically do you think is horrible based on these moves?

Dumarrrr (and nico)

Nico shouldn't be deemed terrible for either Gafford or Kyrie. Even if someone wouldn't have done either, both are defensible. Obviously his previous work predates this, but I was talking about this week.

I don't like the Poole deal, but some posters I respect think he upgraded his team so.....?

No particular order here, just addressing some recent stuff,

1 - Portland: I do not think they are realistically competitive in the West. Why lock up 64 million per year between Jerami Grant and Jrue Holiday rather than let Simons expire? I think they misunderstand their place in the league and they've traded for a guy whose contract is just too long. Admittedly I thought the Grant deal was fine given his level of play, but he has fallen off a cliff and I doubt he can be traded for value without a serious bounce back season.

2 - New Orleans: Maybe it makes them better? Clearly the plan is just to score as much as possible and play no defense. I don't like the value of the contract relative to keeping a similar caliber player who expires. They are doubling down on bad guard contracts. I also think the 23 for 2026 1st is clearly a mistake. They should have waited till the end of the finals (clearly) - something I didn't really think about at the time, so I can't claim special insight.

3 - Dallas: Luka. I like the Irving extension. Gafford is a bit too much, but not horrid.

4 - Sacramento: I don't think this needs to be discussed.

5 - Chicago: same as Sacramento.

Edit: 6 - Toronto: what are they doing? Will they draft Noa Essengue to have 10 players of the same archetype?

Then there are teams on the edge where we are waiting to see like Utah and Charlotte.

[jredsaz]

Read on Twitter

Please please please please board do not take this tweet and use it to justify a bunch of Jokic trade threads. Please please please please.

My proposal to acquire Jokic at a discount...

[ReggiesKnicks]

Dumarrrr (and nico)

Nico shouldn't be deemed terrible for either Gafford or Kyrie. Even if someone wouldn't have done either, both are defensible. Obviously his previous work predates this, but I was talking about this week.

I don't like the Poole deal, but some posters I respect think he upgraded his team so.....?

No particular order here, just addressing some recent stuff,

1 - Portland: I do not think they are realistically competitive in the West. Why lock up 53 million per year between Jerami Grant and Jrue Holiday rather than let Simons expire? I think they misunderstand their place in the league and they've traded for a guy whose contract is just too long. Admittedly I thought the Grant deal was fine given his level of play, but he has fallen off a cliff and I doubt he can be traded for value without a serious bounce back season.

2 - New Orleans: Maybe it makes them better? Clearly the plan is just to score as much as possible and play no defense. I don't like the value of the contract relative to keeping a similar caliber player who expires. They are doubling down on bad guard contracts. I also think the 23 for 2026 1st is clearly a mistake. They should have waited till the end of the finals (clearly) - something I didn't really think about at the time, so I can't claim special insight.

3 - Dallas: Luka. I like the Irving extension. Gafford is a bit too much, but not horrid.

4 - Sacramento: I don't think this needs to be discussed.

5 - Chicago: same as Sacramento.

Then there are teams on the edge where we are waiting to see like Utah and Charlotte.

I thought Sacramento won the Fox deal...Maxing a player of Fox's caliber is always a gut-punch.

I like what Portland did. I don't mind what New Orleans did. They literally swapped C.J. for Poole, identical archetypes, and are burdened with their starting PG being on a large injury.