RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[basketballwacko2]

Michael Jordan baby greatest of all time he had to switched over to play baseball for a while he probably have the top stats but you got to give us some credit to LeBron James for his longevity and ability to run up and down the court at 40.

[lessthanjake]

RealGM Jordan Superfans: "MJ could have and DID destroy zone defenses!!"

MJ: "If teams were to play zone defense, I wouldn't have the career I had."

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2001/04/01/if-zone-defenses-come-in-stars-may-go-out/

"Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did,"

So which one is it? Was MJ being humble about his compete and utter DESTRUCTION of zone defenses?

Are you unable to conceive of anything beyond black and white concepts? Teams always push the envelope of the rules, and often refs just start letting stuff go as long as it’s not too egregious. The result in this particular instance was that teams eventually started pushing the envelope and playing zones, but they didn’t push it to do all the same things that they do today without the rule. What does this mean? Well, it means Jordan did play against teams that were running zones. But they weren’t doing all the most innovative zone schemes that teams sometimes do today when they are secure in the fact that there isn’t even a not-often-enforced rule. Think of it like a speed limit. People do speed, but the speed limit does prevent people from driving *way* over it, so if you took away the speed limit, you’d have different behavior. So yes, teams played zones, and Jordan did well against them. But the lack of illegal defense rules still makes a difference. Surely you can comprehend this? Or perhaps you think that one must either think that no one drives above the speed limit or that speed limits have no effect.

You also seem to not comprehend that the rest of the rules (and the enforcement of the rules) in this era is not the same now as it was back then. If you just took the 1980s and 1990s ruleset and took away the illegal defense rule, then it would make offense harder and make scoring lower. But that certainly isn’t anything like what things are like in this era, and only is arguably close to what happened for three seasons (2002-2004), before they banned hand-checking to help increase scoring. And even that three-year timeframe is probably a more offense-slanted ruleset than what Jordan was contemplating, because the removal of illegal-defense was significantly mitigated by the introduction of the defensive-three-second rule, and Jordan’s quote came before these rule changes were made. It’s likely that Jordan’s argument during the process of figuring out the rule change was at least a part of why they decided to mitigate the change by adding defensive-three-seconds! So you’re really just arguing that Jordan said he thought he’d score less under a ruleset that was more difficult to score in than anything we ever actually subsequently saw. Which…is probably true, but isn’t a point that has any value whatsoever.

[bledredwine]

RealGM Jordan Superfans: "MJ could have and DID destroy zone defenses!!"

MJ: "If teams were to play zone defense, I wouldn't have the career I had."

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2001/04/01/if-zone-defenses-come-in-stars-may-go-out/

"Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did,"

So which one is it? Was MJ being humble about his compete and utter DESTRUCTION of zone defenses?

For the second time, three second violation didn’t exist three seconds vio is easy access to the rim. And I have you plenty of evidence that he did face zones, including a quote of his as well. Do you see the irony?

[ScrantonBulls]

RealGM Jordan Superfans: "MJ could have and DID destroy zone defenses!!"

MJ: "If teams were to play zone defense, I wouldn't have the career I had."

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2001/04/01/if-zone-defenses-come-in-stars-may-go-out/

"Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did,"

So which one is it? Was MJ being humble about his compete and utter DESTRUCTION of zone defenses?

For the second time, three second violation didn’t exist three seconds vio is easy access to the rim. And I have you plenty of evidence that he did face zones, including a quote of his as well. Do you see the irony?

Lmao at thinking defensive 3 seconds is more impactful than banning zone/illegal defense for increasing scoring. I would love to see a poll for that on RealGM. I'm sure your take would get blown out of the water.

I don't think you truly believe that though. You just have to take that position regardless as the defender of all things 90s NBA + MJ.

[TheGOATRises007]

An apparent Bulls fan spends most of his time downplaying the franchise's best ever player and criticizing the era that brought the most joy to Bulls fans

Remarkable stuff

[ScrantonBulls]

An apparent Bulls fan spends most of his time downplaying the franchise's best ever player and criticizing the era that brought the most joy to Bulls fans

Remarkable stuff

An apparent grown man can't handle a dissenting opinion, given that this is about the 10th time you have complained about this.

[TheGOATRises007]

An apparent Bulls fan spends most of his time downplaying the franchise's best ever player and criticizing the era that brought the most joy to Bulls fans

Remarkable stuff

An apparent grown man can't handle a dissenting opinion, given that this is about the 10th time you have complained about this.

Everyone on this forum knows you're not a Bulls fan

[michaelm]

An apparent Bulls fan spends most of his time downplaying the franchise's best ever player and criticizing the era that brought the most joy to Bulls fans

Remarkable stuff

An apparent grown man can't handle a dissenting opinion, given that this is about the 10th time you have complained about this.

Exactly. You really don’t get the concept of irony do you. ?.

[michaelm]

As oppose to the guy who played in a horrifically bad eastern conference getting fodder like DeMar DeRozan in the ECF

The East was getting called weak even during Jordan’s time, and there were still super elite perimeter players waiting for Bron in the Finals.

Read on Twitter

?s=12&t=N8KS3iAE6xP2AR5_6BL8mw

The East was monstrously strong at the beginning of MJ's career. Pistons, Celtics, Sixers, and Bucks were all stacked, and people called the West the weaker conference. Those were all teams of the 80s, and they all faded on slightly different timelines. The Pistons won the championship in 1990, but the other 80s teams were some kind of done. No more Dr. J or Moses in Phili, Bird playing on a broken back in Boston, no more Moncrief/Marques/Lanier in Milwaukee.

So the 90s East is a completely new generation of teams. The Bulls first championship is them kind of eating up the remains of the last generation, easily defeating the corpses of Detroit, Phili, and Magic's Lakers. New York doesn't become a real contender until 1993, the end of the Bulls first 3-peat. The Cavs are super legit for most of the first 3-peat. MJ retires, and that's when Shaq and Penny make the Magic a contender. The Hawks are up and down. Eventually the Reggie Miller Pacers become legit, and Pat Riley makes a bruising team in Miami.

But during most of the Chicago dynasty, the best opponents are all in the West. Stockton/Malone Jazz, David Robinson Spurs, Hakeem Rockets, Barkley Suns, Payton/Kemp Pacers, Drexler Blazers.

I don't think the East was quite as sad as it was sometimes during the Lebron-era. Some of the would-be Lebron challengers fell apart before they really got going (Derrick Rose injury in Chicago, Paul George injury in Indiana + weird Roy Hibber mental meltdown).

The East opposition did have a tendency to quail when they faced LeBron on either of his teams during that run to 8 successive finals though. The Raptors were a good team against other opposition with good numbers who won a championship with the addition of Kawhi, but just couldn’t cope with LeBron.

[michaelm]

All you do is hang on to other posters’ posts and act like what they said proves everything.

Well, here’s the education on this matter, if you care to learn about it. MJ faced plenty of zones and dominated.

https://nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/2014/09/section-4-jordan-never-faced-zone-myth.html?m=1

Keep in mind that Jordan played during a time without three second violation. That changes everything, including the context behind his quote. Three sec and court opening up= easy inside buckets, as euro stars keep mentioning.

If anything, Jordan in today’s game would be hilarious. We’ve heard both current and past players/coaches state he’d average more and not one single person saying less. And not a single cross era dominated in the 90s with the prior rules.

As I’ve mentioned before, nearly every lebron argument falls into two categories. 1- longevity. 2- excuses.
And this falls into category two: excuses

Lmao, this has to be your blog. Based on the name "Nobody Touches Jordan" and the homeristic claims that are in it. The article claims MJ was an MVP candidate in 2001-02 with his robust 46.8% TS% Yeah Jordan sure tore up zone defense with his "efficient" statline this year.

"Hey guyz look at this article from www.JordanIsGod.com/LeBronIsStupid. Not sure who wrote the article, but is appears to be a genius. Anyway, it says Jordan was an MVP candidate in 2001-02. Therefore he destroyed zone defense."

Gotta love the insecurity people have about MJs legacy. There's a blog dedicated to convincing everybody how great he is.

This all seems silly to me.

Jordan did basically play against zones, because the illegal defense rules eventually started not really being enforced very much. This was an open secret, somewhat similar to how palming rules exist but aren’t enforced. However, the rule’s existence did mean that teams didn’t exactly do all the same stuff they do today, nor was the space on the court at all similar to what it is now. If Jordan played in the context of today—with different rules, different enforcement of existing rules, and more space—it is surely true that his career wouldn’t be the same. Indeed, essentially every player in history would play a bit differently and have a different career, if you put them in a league with a different ruleset. But that’s not necessarily for the worse. Obviously, in today’s era, the drive-and-kick game is way stronger and more common than it used to be, because of how the game and its rules have shifted. If Jordan played today, he’d obviously do a lot more drive-and-kick, and less of some things he did in that era that aren’t as common now (for instance, we’d probably see fewer post fadeaways). Would Jordan’s career be different? Yes, of course! But would it be worse? Well, that seems like a pretty dubious assumption to make, since Jordan was absolutely elite at driving to the hoop, and he had a unique ability to hang in the air (aided by his incredible body control and large hands) to pull defenses in even further before making a pass. We saw plenty of his drive-and-kick playmaking already, and he was very good at it, even in an era where the rules/context wasn’t very conducive to it. So while there’s every reason to think Jordan would play differently under a different ruleset (as would essentially every player ever, if you put them in a league with materially different rules), there’s no particular reason to believe Jordan would be less good under today’s ruleset. He’d likely just end up leaning into drive-and-kick playmaking more and taking fewer pure isolation mid-range shots. The fact that that’d make for a somewhat different playstyle and therefore a different career doesn’t mean that it’d be worse. You want it to mean that, but it doesn’t.

Yes Jordan who put up huge scoring numbers in a low scoring era with some of the best Centers ever waiting at the rim, during which a team called the bad boy Pistons for good reason won 2 titles mainly based on defense, in an era when the rules have been tweaked to favour more scoring with scores much higher than in Jordan’s day would apparently not score as well now. 3 point shots weren’t much of a thing in his day, and his shot mechanics were probably tailored to 2 point range, and we will never know how well he could have shot 3 pointers from the current range, but LeBron had to work on his 3 point shot for years to eventually become competent rather than highly elite, while Jordan was a fantastic shooter inside the line and a rather better career FT shooter. Ironically (that word again) Scranton exalts the contribution of a mid 30s post peak version of one of the bad boy Pistons in Dennis Rodman when trying to diminish Jordan’s success on the basis of the quality of his team-mates.

[MavsDirk41]

RealGM Jordan Superfans: "MJ could have and DID destroy zone defenses!!"

MJ: "If teams were to play zone defense, I wouldn't have the career I had."

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2001/04/01/if-zone-defenses-come-in-stars-may-go-out/

"Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did,"

So which one is it? Was MJ being humble about his compete and utter DESTRUCTION of zone defenses?

For the second time, three second violation didn’t exist three seconds vio is easy access to the rim. And I have you plenty of evidence that he did face zones, including a quote of his as well. Do you see the irony?

I dont even see why you waste your time responding to that guy. I dont read his post and would rather sit in my lawn and watch the grass grow than engage him in a discussion.

[lessthanjake]

The East was getting called weak even during Jordan’s time, and there were still super elite perimeter players waiting for Bron in the Finals.

Read on Twitter

?s=12&t=N8KS3iAE6xP2AR5_6BL8mw

The East was monstrously strong at the beginning of MJ's career. Pistons, Celtics, Sixers, and Bucks were all stacked, and people called the West the weaker conference. Those were all teams of the 80s, and they all faded on slightly different timelines. The Pistons won the championship in 1990, but the other 80s teams were some kind of done. No more Dr. J or Moses in Phili, Bird playing on a broken back in Boston, no more Moncrief/Marques/Lanier in Milwaukee.

So the 90s East is a completely new generation of teams. The Bulls first championship is them kind of eating up the remains of the last generation, easily defeating the corpses of Detroit, Phili, and Magic's Lakers. New York doesn't become a real contender until 1993, the end of the Bulls first 3-peat. The Cavs are super legit for most of the first 3-peat. MJ retires, and that's when Shaq and Penny make the Magic a contender. The Hawks are up and down. Eventually the Reggie Miller Pacers become legit, and Pat Riley makes a bruising team in Miami.

But during most of the Chicago dynasty, the best opponents are all in the West. Stockton/Malone Jazz, David Robinson Spurs, Hakeem Rockets, Barkley Suns, Payton/Kemp Pacers, Drexler Blazers.

I don't think the East was quite as sad as it was sometimes during the Lebron-era. Some of the would-be Lebron challengers fell apart before they really got going (Derrick Rose injury in Chicago, Paul George injury in Indiana + weird Roy Hibber mental meltdown).

The East opposition did have a tendency to quail when they faced LeBron on either of his teams during that run to 8 successive finals though. The Raptors were a good team against other opposition with good numbers who won a championship with the addition of Kawhi, but just couldn’t cope with LeBron.

That Raptors team definitely got demolished by the Cavs, but I would note that they weren’t actually all that good against other teams either.

If we look at the Raptors in 2016, 2017, and 2018, here were their playoff SRS’s outside of their games against the Cavs:

2016: +3.98
2017: +0.22
2018: +2.53

In other words, they played like a very mediocre team in the playoffs even outside of playing the Cavs. They faced teams that were completely mediocre and barely beat them. The highest SRS team they beat in those years was the 1.62 SRS 2016 Pacers, and they won the series in 7 games and were outscored in the series. Granted, the Cavs beat them so thoroughly that it was still impressive. But those 2016-2018 Raptors did not play like a team that was actually good in the playoffs, even outside of those Cavs series. And I don’t think it was a particular surprise, since teams that do well in the regular season but do not have any real star player, do not have particularly high preseason expectations, and are not a marquee franchise very often underperform in the playoffs. I think it has to do with opposing players definitely not circling games against them on the calendar in the regular season (i.e. teams like this don’t get opponents’ best effort in the regular season, so their regular season success ends up getting inflated, and they come down to earth in the playoffs).

[michaelm]

The East was monstrously strong at the beginning of MJ's career. Pistons, Celtics, Sixers, and Bucks were all stacked, and people called the West the weaker conference. Those were all teams of the 80s, and they all faded on slightly different timelines. The Pistons won the championship in 1990, but the other 80s teams were some kind of done. No more Dr. J or Moses in Phili, Bird playing on a broken back in Boston, no more Moncrief/Marques/Lanier in Milwaukee.

So the 90s East is a completely new generation of teams. The Bulls first championship is them kind of eating up the remains of the last generation, easily defeating the corpses of Detroit, Phili, and Magic's Lakers. New York doesn't become a real contender until 1993, the end of the Bulls first 3-peat. The Cavs are super legit for most of the first 3-peat. MJ retires, and that's when Shaq and Penny make the Magic a contender. The Hawks are up and down. Eventually the Reggie Miller Pacers become legit, and Pat Riley makes a bruising team in Miami.

But during most of the Chicago dynasty, the best opponents are all in the West. Stockton/Malone Jazz, David Robinson Spurs, Hakeem Rockets, Barkley Suns, Payton/Kemp Pacers, Drexler Blazers.

I don't think the East was quite as sad as it was sometimes during the Lebron-era. Some of the would-be Lebron challengers fell apart before they really got going (Derrick Rose injury in Chicago, Paul George injury in Indiana + weird Roy Hibber mental meltdown).

The East opposition did have a tendency to quail when they faced LeBron on either of his teams during that run to 8 successive finals though. The Raptors were a good team against other opposition with good numbers who won a championship with the addition of Kawhi, but just couldn’t cope with LeBron.

That Raptors team definitely got demolished by the Cavs, but I would note that they weren’t actually all that good against other teams either.

If we look at the Raptors in 2016, 2017, and 2018, here were their playoff SRS’s outside of their games against the Cavs:

2016: +3.98
2017: +0.22
2018: +2.53

In other words, they played like a very mediocre team in the playoffs even outside of playing the Cavs. They faced teams that were completely mediocre and barely beat them. The highest SRS team they beat in those years was the 1.62 SRS 2016 Pacers, and they won the series in 7 games and were outscored in the series. Granted, the Cavs beat them so thoroughly that it was still impressive. But those 2016-2018 Raptors did not play like a team that was actually good in the playoffs, even outside of those Cavs series. And I don’t think it was a particular surprise, since teams that do well in the regular season but do not have any real star player, do not have particularly high preseason expectations, and are not a marquee franchise very often underperform in the playoffs. I think it has to do with opposing players definitely not circling games against them on the calendar in the regular season (i.e. teams like this don’t get opponents’ best effort in the regular season, so their regular season success ends up getting inflated, and they come down to earth in the playoffs).

Sure, I mainly meant they had a good record in the regular season and were commonly high in the regular season standings. We probably don’t want to get into regular season vs play-offs however, although whole career statistics are obviously influenced by regular season numbers, the importance of which vary according to how you view the importance of the regular season.

[michaelm]

RealGM Jordan Superfans: "MJ could have and DID destroy zone defenses!!"

MJ: "If teams were to play zone defense, I wouldn't have the career I had."

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2001/04/01/if-zone-defenses-come-in-stars-may-go-out/

"Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did,"

So which one is it? Was MJ being humble about his compete and utter DESTRUCTION of zone defenses?

For the second time, three second violation didn’t exist three seconds vio is easy access to the rim. And I have you plenty of evidence that he did face zones, including a quote of his as well. Do you see the irony?

I dont even see why you waste your time responding to that guy. I dont read his post and would rather sit in my lawn and watch the grass grow than engage him in a discussion.

It is amusing to do so. He abreacts, resorting to argumentum ad hominem and talk of whataboutism if you turn his arguments back on him, without actually offering any counter arguments.

[ball_takes23]

Luka talking about how much easier it is scoring in the NBA compared to Europe/FIBA, he specifically mentions the 3-second rule as the main reason why.

“You said scoring 30 in the NBA was easier than scoring in Europe, and a lot of people have co-signed that. I’m not here to dispute that take at all. The other night you had 73 against the Hawks. ... I’ve re-watched the 25 made baskets like five times, and to some degree, it did look easy. Did that 73 feel easy?”

Dončić, of course, laughs off the notion and answers Redick with a firm “No,” before explaining something really enlightening right off the cuff, and I’m not sure it’s something a lot of fans notice or appreciate enough in the course of viewing a game. It was a great shout by the goat.

In explaining why people may mistakenly say he makes the game look easy, Dončić said:

“I always say, it’s because of the rules. The three seconds in the paint on defense is huge. I don’t think people realize how huge that is. When I’m iso-ing, I’m watching the defender, so, he’s got to go out [of the lane] at some point. So when he’s going out, I try to attack, so that’s a huge difference. But no, it wasn’t easy scoring 73.”

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2024/2/11/24067916/luka-doncic-exploits-the-nba-rule-book-as-much-as-the-opposing-defenders-in-front-of-him

[MavsDirk41]

For the second time, three second violation didn’t exist three seconds vio is easy access to the rim. And I have you plenty of evidence that he did face zones, including a quote of his as well. Do you see the irony?

I dont even see why you waste your time responding to that guy. I dont read his post and would rather sit in my lawn and watch the grass grow than engage him in a discussion.

It is amusing to do so. He abreacts, resorting to argumentum ad hominem and talk of whataboutism if you turn his arguments back on him, without actually offering any counter arguments.

No counter arguments because he isnt old enough to have watched 80s/90s nba or Jordan play but his entire reason for posting on here is to diss them in an effort to prop up James and his competition.

[parapooper]

Luka talking about how much easier it is scoring in the NBA compared to Europe/FIBA, he specifically mentions the 3-second rule as the main reason why.

“You said scoring 30 in the NBA was easier than scoring in Europe, and a lot of people have co-signed that. I’m not here to dispute that take at all. The other night you had 73 against the Hawks. ... I’ve re-watched the 25 made baskets like five times, and to some degree, it did look easy. Did that 73 feel easy?”

Dončić, of course, laughs off the notion and answers Redick with a firm “No,” before explaining something really enlightening right off the cuff, and I’m not sure it’s something a lot of fans notice or appreciate enough in the course of viewing a game. It was a great shout by the goat.

In explaining why people may mistakenly say he makes the game look easy, Dončić said:

“I always say, it’s because of the rules. The three seconds in the paint on defense is huge. I don’t think people realize how huge that is. When I’m iso-ing, I’m watching the defender, so, he’s got to go out [of the lane] at some point. So when he’s going out, I try to attack, so that’s a huge difference. But no, it wasn’t easy scoring 73.”

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2024/2/11/24067916/luka-doncic-exploits-the-nba-rule-book-as-much-as-the-opposing-defenders-in-front-of-him

LeBron:
4 Olympics, every single one with TS%>65% including age 19 and age 39

Olympics MVP at 39 with similar per 36 numbers as peak Jokic with 71% TS against best international competition ever
quick AI result:
LeBron James: 20.9/10.0/12.5/1.9/66.0%FG
Nikola Jokić: 20.8/11.9/9.6/2.2/53.8%FG


MJ:
- 1992 dream team at his peak (age 29, middle of first 3-peat, zero health issues) on biggest stage of basketball ever,
- after Magic insinuated he gets preferential whistle in NBA during photo shoot and he had the perfect chance to show he is the best scorer even without NBA rules and refs
- against atrocious international competition (shot 35ish% against dream team I think and presumably defended at same level):

49% TS
- 10% lower than next-worst guy on the team
- close to 20% below team average
- following 49% in the 1984 olympic playoffs against even worse international competition than 1992
Has anyone of note in basketball history ever managed to lower their team efficiency more over such a stretch, while healthy?




-> Lebron looks significantly better with FIBA rules and refs than with NBA rules and refs
-> MJ showed arguably the most embarrassing scoring performance in basketball history with FIBA rules and refs instead of NBA rules and refs

PS:
MJ was probably also the biggest bedwetter in college basketball history: inheriting the title holder from Worthy - all-time coach and 2 of the most stacked teams in college history in consecutive years -> both years failed to make it even to final 4 and lost as heavy favorite
last college game while losing with the #1 team against an unranked team: 13pts (45%TS), 2reb, 1ast, 3TOs
PPS:
MJ also failed to win a state title with the nr.1 high school team, while LeBron won 3


-> without NBA rules and refs LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>> MJ

[MavsDirk41]

Luka talking about how much easier it is scoring in the NBA compared to Europe/FIBA, he specifically mentions the 3-second rule as the main reason why.

“You said scoring 30 in the NBA was easier than scoring in Europe, and a lot of people have co-signed that. I’m not here to dispute that take at all. The other night you had 73 against the Hawks. ... I’ve re-watched the 25 made baskets like five times, and to some degree, it did look easy. Did that 73 feel easy?”

Dončić, of course, laughs off the notion and answers Redick with a firm “No,” before explaining something really enlightening right off the cuff, and I’m not sure it’s something a lot of fans notice or appreciate enough in the course of viewing a game. It was a great shout by the goat.

In explaining why people may mistakenly say he makes the game look easy, Dončić said:

“I always say, it’s because of the rules. The three seconds in the paint on defense is huge. I don’t think people realize how huge that is. When I’m iso-ing, I’m watching the defender, so, he’s got to go out [of the lane] at some point. So when he’s going out, I try to attack, so that’s a huge difference. But no, it wasn’t easy scoring 73.”

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2024/2/11/24067916/luka-doncic-exploits-the-nba-rule-book-as-much-as-the-opposing-defenders-in-front-of-him

LeBron:
4 Olympics, every single one with TS%>65% including age 19 and age 39

Olympics MVP at 39 with similar per 36 numbers as peak Jokic with 71% TS against best international competition ever
quick AI result:
LeBron James: 20.9/10.0/12.5/1.9/66.0%FG
Nikola Jokić: 20.8/11.9/9.6/2.2/53.8%FG


MJ:
- 1992 dream team at his peak (age 29, middle of first 3-peat, zero health issues) on biggest stage of basketball ever,
- after Magic insinuated he gets preferential whistle in NBA during photo shoot and he had the perfect chance to show he is the best scorer even without NBA rules and refs
- against atrocious international competition (shot 35ish% against dream team I think and presumably defended at same level):

49% TS
- 10% lower than next-worst guy on the team
- close to 20% below team average
- following 49% in the 1984 olympic playoffs against even worse international competition than 1992
Has anyone of note in basketball history ever managed to lower their team efficiency more over such a stretch, while healthy?




-> Lebron looks significantly better with FIBA rules and refs than with NBA rules and refs
-> MJ showed arguably the most embarrassing scoring performance in basketball history with FIBA rules and refs instead of NBA rules and refs

PS:
MJ was probably also the biggest bedwetter in college basketball history: inheriting the title holder from Worthy - all-time coach and 2 of the most stacked teams in college history in consecutive years -> both years failed to make it even to final 4 and lost as heavy favorite
last college game while losing with the #1 team against an unranked team: 13pts (45%TS), 2reb, 1ast, 3TOs
PPS:
MJ also failed to win a state title with the nr.1 high school team, while LeBron won 3


-> without NBA rules and refs LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>> MJ

Has any top 10 player in nba history had a worse finals performance than James in 2011?

2007 wasnt much better for James but Cleveland was just the underdog, but so was Chicago against Boston and Detroit during the playoffs in the mid to late 80s and 90 and Jordan still performed well.

Was Jordan ever been outplayed during the finals like James was against Dirk? Was Jordan ever not clearly the best player on his team in the finals or playoffs like James?

Jordan never lost a playoff series after having home court advantage…James has 3 times in his career

Jordan against 60 win teams in the playoffs 7-2
James against 60 win teams in the playoffs 3-5

Jordan won 60 plus RS games 4 times and 70 plus once
James in 22 seasons has won 60 plus RS games 3 times

It works both ways ya know

[MavsDirk41]

Luka talking about how much easier it is scoring in the NBA compared to Europe/FIBA, he specifically mentions the 3-second rule as the main reason why.

“You said scoring 30 in the NBA was easier than scoring in Europe, and a lot of people have co-signed that. I’m not here to dispute that take at all. The other night you had 73 against the Hawks. ... I’ve re-watched the 25 made baskets like five times, and to some degree, it did look easy. Did that 73 feel easy?”

Dončić, of course, laughs off the notion and answers Redick with a firm “No,” before explaining something really enlightening right off the cuff, and I’m not sure it’s something a lot of fans notice or appreciate enough in the course of viewing a game. It was a great shout by the goat.

In explaining why people may mistakenly say he makes the game look easy, Dončić said:

“I always say, it’s because of the rules. The three seconds in the paint on defense is huge. I don’t think people realize how huge that is. When I’m iso-ing, I’m watching the defender, so, he’s got to go out [of the lane] at some point. So when he’s going out, I try to attack, so that’s a huge difference. But no, it wasn’t easy scoring 73.”

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2024/2/11/24067916/luka-doncic-exploits-the-nba-rule-book-as-much-as-the-opposing-defenders-in-front-of-him

LeBron:
4 Olympics, every single one with TS%>65% including age 19 and age 39

Olympics MVP at 39 with similar per 36 numbers as peak Jokic with 71% TS against best international competition ever
quick AI result:
LeBron James: 20.9/10.0/12.5/1.9/66.0%FG
Nikola Jokić: 20.8/11.9/9.6/2.2/53.8%FG


MJ:
- 1992 dream team at his peak (age 29, middle of first 3-peat, zero health issues) on biggest stage of basketball ever,
- after Magic insinuated he gets preferential whistle in NBA during photo shoot and he had the perfect chance to show he is the best scorer even without NBA rules and refs
- against atrocious international competition (shot 35ish% against dream team I think and presumably defended at same level):

49% TS
- 10% lower than next-worst guy on the team
- close to 20% below team average
- following 49% in the 1984 olympic playoffs against even worse international competition than 1992
Has anyone of note in basketball history ever managed to lower their team efficiency more over such a stretch, while healthy?




-> Lebron looks significantly better with FIBA rules and refs than with NBA rules and refs
-> MJ showed arguably the most embarrassing scoring performance in basketball history with FIBA rules and refs instead of NBA rules and refs

PS:
MJ was probably also the biggest bedwetter in college basketball history: inheriting the title holder from Worthy - all-time coach and 2 of the most stacked teams in college history in consecutive years -> both years failed to make it even to final 4 and lost as heavy favorite
last college game while losing with the #1 team against an unranked team: 13pts (45%TS), 2reb, 1ast, 3TOs
PPS:
MJ also failed to win a state title with the nr.1 high school team, while LeBron won 3


-> without NBA rules and refs LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>> MJ

And you James has a bronze medal is his resume right lol?

[ScrantonBulls]

Luka talking about how much easier it is scoring in the NBA compared to Europe/FIBA, he specifically mentions the 3-second rule as the main reason why.



https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2024/2/11/24067916/luka-doncic-exploits-the-nba-rule-book-as-much-as-the-opposing-defenders-in-front-of-him

LeBron:
4 Olympics, every single one with TS%>65% including age 19 and age 39

Olympics MVP at 39 with similar per 36 numbers as peak Jokic with 71% TS against best international competition ever
quick AI result:
LeBron James: 20.9/10.0/12.5/1.9/66.0%FG
Nikola Jokić: 20.8/11.9/9.6/2.2/53.8%FG


MJ:
- 1992 dream team at his peak (age 29, middle of first 3-peat, zero health issues) on biggest stage of basketball ever,
- after Magic insinuated he gets preferential whistle in NBA during photo shoot and he had the perfect chance to show he is the best scorer even without NBA rules and refs
- against atrocious international competition (shot 35ish% against dream team I think and presumably defended at same level):

49% TS
- 10% lower than next-worst guy on the team
- close to 20% below team average
- following 49% in the 1984 olympic playoffs against even worse international competition than 1992
Has anyone of note in basketball history ever managed to lower their team efficiency more over such a stretch, while healthy?




-> Lebron looks significantly better with FIBA rules and refs than with NBA rules and refs
-> MJ showed arguably the most embarrassing scoring performance in basketball history with FIBA rules and refs instead of NBA rules and refs

PS:
MJ was probably also the biggest bedwetter in college basketball history: inheriting the title holder from Worthy - all-time coach and 2 of the most stacked teams in college history in consecutive years -> both years failed to make it even to final 4 and lost as heavy favorite
last college game while losing with the #1 team against an unranked team: 13pts (45%TS), 2reb, 1ast, 3TOs
PPS:
MJ also failed to win a state title with the nr.1 high school team, while LeBron won 3


-> without NBA rules and refs LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>> MJ

And you James has a bronze medal is his resume right lol?

Lmao. This is the type of high level analysis we can expect from MavsDirk. Parapooper posts a detailed breakdown showing LeBron and MJ's Olympic performances, using statistics, charts and larger sample sizes.

MavsDirk, using absolutely no context or stats: "u ever hear about LeBronze bro? Lol".

That's just awesome. I'd expect nothing less from him.