2025 NBA Draft Thread (pt 3)

[fallguy]

Is it safe to say Brad - so far - is not as good drafting as he is trading for talent?

It might be the safest thing you've ever said.

We did this ad nauseam with Danny.

Compare the career production of the player drafted vs. expected production in that draft slot and then tell me who is and is not good at drafting.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Since Brad became POBO, the Celtics have been the most successful franchise in the league. Period. In four seasons he's had a championship, a Finals loss, a 7th game loss in the conference finals, and a 2nd-round flameout. No other team has matched that.

One can argue that he SHOULD have done extremely well, given the assets he started with and his win-now prioritization. (Trading away picks, using up luxury tax years. etc.) But the fact remains that his actual results were stellar, and any criticisms should acknowledge that context.

There's no question that he's elite as a POBO. I am sure he has a well thought out plan that he is executing. That said, for me, it just not a pleasant experience at draft time watching him trade down/out of drafts, and watching guys one hoped we would draft go elsewhere. There is no arguing with his success. Just saying these drafts where he trades down are a real bummer as a fan. All that said, I loved the Baylor pick last year, so there's that.

[jfs1000d]

Finances have been more of a factor in the moves so far than some fans thought it would be just a few months ago. I think JT injury is a big factor in that shift if that wasn't the original approach already.

Every single move is based on two things.

1. Reducing salary
2. Making sure team have a malleable roster for Summer of 2026

So, there are no long term players coming in. There are going to be trades that are meant to make the roster and finances more flexible. The KP Trade is perfect.

If we could move Simons into a TPE and not get anything back, or give anything up, that would be the best deal ever. Like, get Simons to Nets for a 2026 second ohs. Pick. Get the TPE. Amazing!


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[jfs1000d]

That one otherwise meaningless Washington Wizards win at the end of the season meant the Celtics did not get Fleming.

(That is, if they'd won the tiebreaking coin toss that would have taken place.)

Don't want the salary. I get it, but all these guys are end of roster players this year and next year .


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[Bill Lumbergh]

Is it safe to say Brad - so far - is not as good drafting as he is trading for talent?

It might be the safest thing you've ever said.

We did this ad nauseam with Danny.

Compare the career production of the player drafted vs. expected production in that draft slot and then tell me who is and is not good at drafting.

It's more the trading down, and then getting lesser players that I don't like. I understand it's a strategy. It's just one that is unsatisfying at draft time. One can't argue with the success the team has had, which is the most important thing, but as drafts go, other than the Baylor pick, Brad's drafts have been hugely unsatisfying for me.

[Hal14]

If Williams and Shulga both get two ways, which is still tbd, there's only one two way left for Norris, Peterson, or someone else.

Norris signed a 2-year 2-way contract so as of now, it's looking like our 3 2-way spots are filled:

Norris
Shulga
Williams

Peterson is a FA..so he's probably either gone..or he gets a standard roster spot - probably only happens if Walsh is waived/traded..

Does Norris's contract have any kind of guarantee?

All 2-way contracts are non-guaranteed, so guys can get waived from them at any time without any penalty for their team.

So yeah, good point..while it appears that our 2-ways will be Norris, williams and shulga, all 3 of them have like zero job security lol..any of them could get cut at any time..

Cutting a 2-way guy just doesn't usually happen until after the season starts and they have played some games for you, though. Like last year we waived Anton watson from his 2-way mid-season. Year before that we waived Nathan Knight from his 2-way deal 2 months into the reg season.

But I think it's rare to have a guy on a 2-way and cut them before the season even starts..

[C-West]

So we got the best wing at cutting to the basket and the best big at finding the cutter. Sounds like there was a well-executed plan. Good draft and good transactions.

[jfs1000d]

It might be the safest thing you've ever said.

We did this ad nauseam with Danny.

Compare the career production of the player drafted vs. expected production in that draft slot and then tell me who is and is not good at drafting.

It's more the trading down, and then getting lesser players that I don't like. I understand it's a strategy. It's just one that is unsatisfying at draft time. One can't argue with the success the team has had, which is the most important thing. Other than the Baylor pick, Brad's drafts have been hugely unsatisfying for me.

Who was the super huge miss here? None of the guys are gonna play. Way too much hope in second round picks. Who was GM who took Jokic? don't look it up.

No one has any idea. You gotta trust your scouting. If you see a difference make who fell, you go and get him. But the odds are that you aren't getting the next Brunson. There have been about 600 second round picks in the last 25 years. How many non euros, which there is a larger unknown there, are considered perennial All Star players?

Draymond
Jalen Brunson
Khris Middleton

The rest range from starters to rotation players. The only 3 second rounders that are franchise changers that weren't some Euro mystery were those 3.

You find cheap bench pieces and maybe a starter in the second round. These are value picks.


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[jfs1000d]

We did this ad nauseam with Danny.

Compare the career production of the player drafted vs. expected production in that draft slot and then tell me who is and is not good at drafting.

It's more the trading down, and then getting lesser players that I don't like. I understand it's a strategy. It's just one that is unsatisfying at draft time. One can't argue with the success the team has had, which is the most important thing. Other than the Baylor pick, Brad's drafts have been hugely unsatisfying for me.

Who was the super huge miss here? None of the guys are gonna play. Way too much hope in second round picks. Who was GM who took Jokic? don't look it up.

No one has any idea. You gotta trust your scouting. If you see a difference make who fell, you go and get him. But the odds are that you aren't getting the next Brunson. There have been about 600 second round picks in the last 25 years. How many non euros, which there is a larger unknown there, are considered perennial All Star players?

Draymond
Jalen Brunson
Khris Middleton

The rest range from starters to rotation players. The only 3 second rounders that are franchise changers that weren't some Euro mystery were those 3.

You find cheap bench pieces and maybe a starter in the second round. These are value picks.


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Notable American Second-Round Picks (2000–2025)
• Jalen Brunson (2018, No. 33, Dallas Mavericks)
• Two-time All-Star, led the New York Knicks to the Eastern Conference finals, finished fifth in MVP voting in 2023–24, and is widely regarded as a franchise cornerstone.
• Paul Millsap (2006, No. 47, Utah Jazz)
• Four-time All-Star, elite two-way big man, and key contributor for multiple playoff teams.
• Khris Middleton (2012, No. 39, Detroit Pistons, via trade)
• Three-time All-Star and NBA champion with the Milwaukee Bucks.
• Draymond Green (2012, No. 35, Golden State Warriors)
• Four-time NBA champion, Defensive Player of the Year, and multiple-time All-Star.
• Montrezl Harrell (2015, No. 32, Houston Rockets)
• NBA Sixth Man of the Year in 2020, productive big man off the bench.
• Malcolm Brogdon (2016, No. 36, Milwaukee Bucks)
• NBA Rookie of the Year, reliable combo guard, and key contributor for multiple teams.
• DeAndre Jordan (2008, No. 35, Los Angeles Clippers)
• All-Star center, two-time All-NBA selection, and three-time rebounding champion (honorable mention in some lists).
• Michael Redd (2000, No. 43, Milwaukee Bucks)
• All-Star, Olympic gold medalist, and one of the best shooters of his era (honorable mention in some lists).
• Carlos Boozer (2002, No. 34, Cleveland Cavaliers)
• Two-time All-Star, consistent power forward for Utah Jazz and Chicago Bulls (honorable mention in some lists).
• Andrew Nembhard (2022, No. 31, Indiana Pacers)
• Emerging as a reliable guard for the Pacers, notable recent contributor


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[BillessuR6]

I just hope Hugo pans out because this was a brutal 2nd round...

You wanted Fleming but passed on him at 28?

This will probably not age well...

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[Bill Lumbergh]

We did this ad nauseam with Danny.

Compare the career production of the player drafted vs. expected production in that draft slot and then tell me who is and is not good at drafting.

It's more the trading down, and then getting lesser players that I don't like. I understand it's a strategy. It's just one that is unsatisfying at draft time. One can't argue with the success the team has had, which is the most important thing. Other than the Baylor pick, Brad's drafts have been hugely unsatisfying for me.

Who was the super huge miss here? None of the guys are gonna play. Way too much hope in second round picks. Who was GM who took Jokic? don't look it up.

No one has any idea. You gotta trust your scouting. If you see a difference make who fell, you go and get him. But the odds are that you aren't getting the next Brunson. There have been about 600 second round picks in the last 25 years. How many non euros, which there is a larger unknown there, are considered perennial All Star players?

Draymond
Jalen Brunson
Khris Middleton

The rest range from starters to rotation players. The only 3 second rounders that are franchise changers that weren't some Euro mystery were those 3.

You find cheap bench pieces and maybe a starter in the second round. These are value picks.


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Look, you enjoy these drafts where he trades down/out, fine by me. I don't.

[Hal14]

So we got the best wing at cutting to the basket and the best big at finding the cutter. Sounds like there was a well-executed plan. Good draft and good transactions.

And a very good shooter, in Shulga.

[djFan71]

2nd rounders are mainly trade lube. Yes, 20-30 of the last 775 over the past 26 years have made a big impact, but they’ve been used in probably hundreds of trades during that time to make it seem like value is passing.

Brad likes trades, and he may have a few more left this summer I’d imagine. So, while I don’t love missing out on Rasheer and passing on Penda to get more lube either, I expect he puts it to good use.

[Bill Lumbergh]

It's more the trading down, and then getting lesser players that I don't like. I understand it's a strategy. It's just one that is unsatisfying at draft time. One can't argue with the success the team has had, which is the most important thing. Other than the Baylor pick, Brad's drafts have been hugely unsatisfying for me.

Who was the super huge miss here? None of the guys are gonna play. Way too much hope in second round picks. Who was GM who took Jokic? don't look it up.

No one has any idea. You gotta trust your scouting. If you see a difference make who fell, you go and get him. But the odds are that you aren't getting the next Brunson. There have been about 600 second round picks in the last 25 years. How many non euros, which there is a larger unknown there, are considered perennial All Star players?

Draymond
Jalen Brunson
Khris Middleton

The rest range from starters to rotation players. The only 3 second rounders that are franchise changers that weren't some Euro mystery were those 3.

You find cheap bench pieces and maybe a starter in the second round. These are value picks.


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Check out AI

Notable American Second-Round Picks (2000–2025)
• Jalen Brunson (2018, No. 33, Dallas Mavericks)
• Two-time All-Star, led the New York Knicks to the Eastern Conference finals, finished fifth in MVP voting in 2023–24, and is widely regarded as a franchise cornerstone.
• Paul Millsap (2006, No. 47, Utah Jazz)
• Four-time All-Star, elite two-way big man, and key contributor for multiple playoff teams.
• Khris Middleton (2012, No. 39, Detroit Pistons, via trade)
• Three-time All-Star and NBA champion with the Milwaukee Bucks.
• Draymond Green (2012, No. 35, Golden State Warriors)
• Four-time NBA champion, Defensive Player of the Year, and multiple-time All-Star.
• Montrezl Harrell (2015, No. 32, Houston Rockets)
• NBA Sixth Man of the Year in 2020, productive big man off the bench.
• Malcolm Brogdon (2016, No. 36, Milwaukee Bucks)
• NBA Rookie of the Year, reliable combo guard, and key contributor for multiple teams.
• DeAndre Jordan (2008, No. 35, Los Angeles Clippers)
• All-Star center, two-time All-NBA selection, and three-time rebounding champion (honorable mention in some lists).
• Michael Redd (2000, No. 43, Milwaukee Bucks)
• All-Star, Olympic gold medalist, and one of the best shooters of his era (honorable mention in some lists).
• Carlos Boozer (2002, No. 34, Cleveland Cavaliers)
• Two-time All-Star, consistent power forward for Utah Jazz and Chicago Bulls (honorable mention in some lists).
• Andrew Nembhard (2022, No. 31, Indiana Pacers)
• Emerging as a reliable guard for the Pacers, notable recent contributor


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That's a lot of effort.

I'll just say that as a general axiom, the higher you draft, the greater the likelihood of getting a better player. That's historically and objectively true. Can you find exceptions to the general rule? Sure. They are exceptions though. And the further you trade down, the more remote the possibility of getting a player as good as the one you could have taken higher. I really don't want to belabor the point. If you enjoy all that trading down and find it to be ultimately beneficial getting a couple extra seconds, all good by me.

[jfs1000d]

It's more the trading down, and then getting lesser players that I don't like. I understand it's a strategy. It's just one that is unsatisfying at draft time. One can't argue with the success the team has had, which is the most important thing. Other than the Baylor pick, Brad's drafts have been hugely unsatisfying for me.

Who was the super huge miss here? None of the guys are gonna play. Way too much hope in second round picks. Who was GM who took Jokic? don't look it up.

No one has any idea. You gotta trust your scouting. If you see a difference make who fell, you go and get him. But the odds are that you aren't getting the next Brunson. There have been about 600 second round picks in the last 25 years. How many non euros, which there is a larger unknown there, are considered perennial All Star players?

Draymond
Jalen Brunson
Khris Middleton

The rest range from starters to rotation players. The only 3 second rounders that are franchise changers that weren't some Euro mystery were those 3.

You find cheap bench pieces and maybe a starter in the second round. These are value picks.


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Look, you enjoy these drafts where he trades down/out, fine by me. I don't.

No. I don't care about drafts. The players in the second round are a dime a dozen. Like, this is like when people whine about 5th round draft picks in nfl.


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[redslastlaugh]

It does seem like deeper value draft picks are becoming more impactful. You look at OKCs roster: Dort, IHart, Caruso, Jaylin Williams, Kenrich Williams, Aaron Wiggins, Isaiah Joe, Ajay Mitchell were not first round selections. You look at the NY series we just lost and McBride, Brunson, Mitch Robinson were not 1st round selections and Josh Hart was (i think) 30th so last in the 1st.

It's great that, when transacting, the front office is pocketing future2nd round picks for other purposes. But I just think a big part of team building is making draft picks, signing them and developing them.

When I think about the Celtics of the last 30 years. Literally the two most significant things that happened were drafting Paul in 98 and Danny shifting the emphasis to taking lots of swings in the draft when he came aboard in 2003. The 2004 draft in particular (Al Jeff, Delonte, Tony Allen) was a huge factor in how we were able to acquire KG and Ray. The non lottery picks from 03-06 (Perk, Rondo, Baby, Powe) were a big reason why we made 2 Finals in 2008 and 2010. And getting Paul and KG is the ball rolling that ended up with the Jays through the Brooklyn trade.

Every good thing that has happened really comes from drafting Paul and drafting the prospects that got us KG.

Just rolling picks over, or the coach depricating rookies, this sort of post-Danny re-imagining of team building, I dunno man. Im a fan and Ive been following the team for decades and I think making draft picks is very important.

2nd rounders are mainly trade lube. Yes, 20-30 of the last 775 over the past 26 years have made a big impact, but they’ve been used in probably hundreds of trades during that time to make it seem like value is passing.

Brad likes trades, and he may have a few more left this summer I’d imagine. So, while I don’t love missing out on Rasheer and passing on Penda to get more lube either, I expect he puts it to good use.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Who was the super huge miss here? None of the guys are gonna play. Way too much hope in second round picks. Who was GM who took Jokic? don't look it up.

No one has any idea. You gotta trust your scouting. If you see a difference make who fell, you go and get him. But the odds are that you aren't getting the next Brunson. There have been about 600 second round picks in the last 25 years. How many non euros, which there is a larger unknown there, are considered perennial All Star players?

Draymond
Jalen Brunson
Khris Middleton

The rest range from starters to rotation players. The only 3 second rounders that are franchise changers that weren't some Euro mystery were those 3.

You find cheap bench pieces and maybe a starter in the second round. These are value picks.


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Look, you enjoy these drafts where he trades down/out, fine by me. I don't.

No. I don't care about drafts. The players in the second round are a dime a dozen. Like, this is like when people whine about 5th round draft picks in nfl.


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What are you even arguing about then?

[djFan71]

It does seem like deeper value draft picks are becoming more impactful. You look at OKCs roster: Dort, IHart, Caruso, Jaylin Williams, Kenrich Williams, Aaron Wiggins, Isaiah Joe, Ajay Mitchell were not first round selections. You look at the NY series we just lost and McBride, Brunson, Mitch Robinson were not 1st round selections and Josh Hart was (i think) 30th so last in the 1st.

It's great that, when transacting, the front office is pocketing future2nd round picks for other purposes. But I just think a big part of team building is making draft picks, signing them and developing them.

When I think about the Celtics of the last 30 years. Literally the two most significant things that happened were drafting Paul in 98 and Danny shifting the emphasis to taking lots of swings in the draft when he came aboard in 2003. The 2004 draft in particular (Al Jeff, Delonte, Tony Allen) was a huge factor in how we were able to acquire KG and Ray. The non lottery picks from 03-06 (Perk, Rondo, Baby, Powe) were a big reason why we made 2 Finals in 2008 and 2010. And getting Paul and KG is the ball rolling that ended up with the Jays through the Brooklyn trade.

Every good thing that has happened really comes from drafting Paul and drafting the prospects that got us KG.

Just rolling picks over, or the coach depricating rookies, this sort of post-Danny re-imagining of team building, I dunno man. Im a fan and Ive been following the team for decades and I think making draft picks is very important.

2nd rounders are mainly trade lube. Yes, 20-30 of the last 775 over the past 26 years have made a big impact, but they’ve been used in probably hundreds of trades during that time to make it seem like value is passing.

Brad likes trades, and he may have a few more left this summer I’d imagine. So, while I don’t love missing out on Rasheer and passing on Penda to get more lube either, I expect he puts it to good use.

Yeah, that's fair - I was more responding to the list of stars. There are probably a few contributors each year on average from round 2. I'm actually overly a fan of early 30s 2nd rounders, myself. Wanted Mitchell last year, Claxton previously, etc. On the other hand I've lusted after Paul Reed, and Tillman (funnily enough), and then so many nameless D without 3 forwards as well that never panned out.

I think OKC's roster is a) not fair, b) probably spotlights their players to look better than they would be on other teams. But, yeah, they've done a good job. With a lot of at-bats.

I also think we have done a good job with 2nds and low level UDFAs or trades using 2nds in the Brad era. Hauser, Luke and Queta all came that way. JD and Walsh probably get their (last) shot next year as well.

Mainly, I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat. If the draft team didn't value anyone 32 or later high enough, they made a great trade to get more assets that can be helpful down the road - possibly in the next few months. If they're wrong and Penda, Raynaud, etc become studs, they messed up.

As for Fleming, if it's true we wanted him and gambled he'd be there at 32 because we liked Hugo more, that's fine by me as well. You can only draft 1 guy with your first pick, so you gotta make tough choices. No matter how tantalizing the wingspan.

[jfs1000d]

Look, you enjoy these drafts where he trades down/out, fine by me. I don't.

No. I don't care about drafts. The players in the second round are a dime a dozen. Like, this is like when people whine about 5th round draft picks in nfl.


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What are you even arguing about then?

Stop whining .


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[MaxwellSmart]

I only wish we could have put Walsh back into the draft.