RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[DOT]

We're really at the point where it's LeBron's fault that the US lost a game he played 3 minutes of in 2004 at the age of 20?

A game where Allen Iverson and Dwyane Wade played 50 minutes and combined for 12 points on 4-20 shooting?

This is just not a serious discussion lol.

[MavsDirk41]

We're really at the point where it's LeBron's fault that the US lost a game he played 3 minutes of in 2004 at the age of 20?

A game where Allen Iverson and Dwyane Wade played 50 minutes and combined for 12 points on 4-20 shooting?

This is just not a serious discussion lol.

Well we can discuss high school basketball records like parapooper and make it a serious discussion if you want too lol?

[DOT]

We're really at the point where it's LeBron's fault that the US lost a game he played 3 minutes of in 2004 at the age of 20?

A game where Allen Iverson and Dwyane Wade played 50 minutes and combined for 12 points on 4-20 shooting?

This is just not a serious discussion lol.

Well we can discuss high school basketball records like parapooper and make it a serious discussion if you want too lol?

At least then you'd be discussing games they actually played in.

[WarriorGM]

Curry

[michaelm]

LeBron:
4 Olympics, every single one with TS%>65% including age 19 and age 39

Olympics MVP at 39 with similar per 36 numbers as peak Jokic with 71% TS against best international competition ever
quick AI result:
LeBron James: 20.9/10.0/12.5/1.9/66.0%FG
Nikola Jokić: 20.8/11.9/9.6/2.2/53.8%FG


MJ:
- 1992 dream team at his peak (age 29, middle of first 3-peat, zero health issues) on biggest stage of basketball ever,
- after Magic insinuated he gets preferential whistle in NBA during photo shoot and he had the perfect chance to show he is the best scorer even without NBA rules and refs
- against atrocious international competition (shot 35ish% against dream team I think and presumably defended at same level):

49% TS
- 10% lower than next-worst guy on the team
- close to 20% below team average
- following 49% in the 1984 olympic playoffs against even worse international competition than 1992
Has anyone of note in basketball history ever managed to lower their team efficiency more over such a stretch, while healthy?




-> Lebron looks significantly better with FIBA rules and refs than with NBA rules and refs
-> MJ showed arguably the most embarrassing scoring performance in basketball history with FIBA rules and refs instead of NBA rules and refs

PS:
MJ was probably also the biggest bedwetter in college basketball history: inheriting the title holder from Worthy - all-time coach and 2 of the most stacked teams in college history in consecutive years -> both years failed to make it even to final 4 and lost as heavy favorite
last college game while losing with the #1 team against an unranked team: 13pts (45%TS), 2reb, 1ast, 3TOs
PPS:
MJ also failed to win a state title with the nr.1 high school team, while LeBron won 3


-> without NBA rules and refs LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>> MJ

And you James has a bronze medal is his resume right lol?

Lmao. This is the type of high level analysis we can expect from MavsDirk. Parapooper posts a detailed breakdown showing LeBron and MJ's Olympic performances, using statistics, charts and larger sample sizes.

MavsDirk, using absolutely no context or stats: "u ever hear about LeBronze bro? Lol".

That's just awesome. I'd expect nothing less from him.

I wasn’t going to bother responding to the first post but this is satire I believe in response to raising the Olympics and high school stuff in the first place. Does it really matter which of them most cared to stomp overmatched competition playing on teams which were in no need of them to win ?. Paratrooper actually commented on how weak the opposition was rather defeating his own point.

Kyrie Irving whom you and others have told me doesn’t really qualify as a highly elite team mate scored 26 in the gold medal game when the USA team won in the 2016 Olympics.

[bledredwine]

… and the straw man arguments continue getting more desperate.

[MavsDirk41]

We're really at the point where it's LeBron's fault that the US lost a game he played 3 minutes of in 2004 at the age of 20?

A game where Allen Iverson and Dwyane Wade played 50 minutes and combined for 12 points on 4-20 shooting?

This is just not a serious discussion lol.

Well we can discuss high school basketball records like parapooper and make it a serious discussion if you want too lol?

At least then you'd be discussing games they actually played in.

You really think high school basketball and the Olympics is something that should seriously be discussed in a goat debate? If so you guys are getting desperate to prop up James. But whatever it takes right?

[lessthanjake]

Lol at the idea that Jordan was not a great college player or was a “bedwetter” in college. Jordan won college player of the year his junior year, and actually won player of the year by some publications his sophomore year as well (for instance, Sporting News gave him player of the year both years). Of course, he also won a national championship while making the championship-winning shot, and being named to the all-tournament team as a freshman. The idea that Jordan’s college career suggests he struggled outside of NBA rules is very obviously nonsense.

As for the 1992 Olympics stats, the sample size there is a grand total of 8 games, most of which was garbage time. Jordan also took on a much higher shot volume than anyone else. He was the one taking end-of-shot-clock shots, while the others were having a way higher percent of their shots be feasting on easy transition buckets. But yeah, in those 8 games, Jordan probably was actually a bit off—as we can also see from him only shooting 68% from the FT line, which obviously has nothing to do with rule differences. He did go 10-16 for a team-leading 22 points in 23 minutes in the Finals, though (which was the toughest game).

[Jamaaliver]

LOL

Me and Kobe are around the same age.

I have never been as intense or passionate as Kobe was about basketball at age 17...

(This graphic from draft night 1996 clearly shows Kobe's head on Jordan's body, right?)

[VanWest82]

Lebron stacked the deck by teaming up with his biggest rivals, started his own agency which forced his team to trade/re-sign guys he wanted to play with, signed his biggest rivals and convinced them to demand trades to his team and no other, used his agency to manipulate the rest of the league, and then blamed his FOs for roster shortcommings that he had a hand in making. At some point, what you do on the court is not the only factor, and what Lebron did to repeatedly stack the deck off the court should be considered a significant negative in regard to his case as best ever.

[ScrantonBulls]

Well we can discuss high school basketball records like parapooper and make it a serious discussion if you want too lol?

At least then you'd be discussing games they actually played in.

You really think high school basketball and the Olympics is something that should seriously be discussed in a goat debate? If so you guys are getting desperate to prop up James. But whatever it takes right?

Is it seriously that hard for you to read the posts you were responding to? The discussion was about how the players performed in different leagues/with different rules (hence why international ball, college and highschool where zone was allowed were discussed).

Instead of reading the posts you were replying to you swoop in with a "LeBronze got a bronze medal lol!" and had no idea that he was only 20 years old and played only 3 minutes in that game

I gotta give it to you, you're the best MavsDirk. You can't write this stuff. Pure comedy.

[michaelm]

Lebron stacked the deck by teaming up with his biggest rivals, started his own agency which forced his team to trade/re-sign guys he wanted to play with, signed his biggest rivals and convinced them to demand trades to his team and no other, used his agency to manipulate the rest of the league, and then blamed his FOs for roster shortcommings that he had a hand in making. At some point, what you do on the court is not the only factor, and what Lebron did to repeatedly stack the deck off the court should be considered a significant negative in regard to his case as best ever.

I thought the AD trade was malodorous, but have no problem with anything else, except for his partisans complaining about what other players have chosen to do as Free Agents. I see no reason why it shouldn’t have been other than open slather for everyone since 2010, and consider LeBron to have made this the case. It mostly hasn’t worked for other players including KD post GSW, probably testament to what LeBron can do even with an ill fitting roster, but he and his fans imo have no grounds to complain about the KD GSW team, yes they were close to unbeatable particularly In 2017, but tough for LeBron and his fans, it is not as though such a team was not LeBron’s goal.

[michaelm]

At least then you'd be discussing games they actually played in.

You really think high school basketball and the Olympics is something that should seriously be discussed in a goat debate? If so you guys are getting desperate to prop up James. But whatever it takes right?

Is it seriously that hard for you to read the posts you were responding to? The discussion was about how the players performed in different leagues/with different rules (hence why international ball, college and highschool where zone was allowed were discussed).

Instead of reading the posts you were replying to you swoop in with a "LeBronze got a bronze medal lol!" and had no idea that he was only 20 years old and played only 3 minutes in that game

I gotta give it to you, you're the best MavsDirk. You can't write this stuff. Pure comedy.

Amusing for you to make such a comment given posting fixed opinions about LeBron regardless of any current discussion is pretty much your entire schtick, and again you are going straw man as is your wont. The essential point with which I agree was what do college ball or the Olympics have to do with the identity of the GOAT player of the NBA ?, which typically you haven’t answered.

[Jamaaliver]

Lebron stacked the deck by teaming up with his biggest rivals, started his own agency which forced his team to trade/re-sign guys he wanted to play with, signed his biggest rivals and convinced them to demand trades to his team and no other, used his agency to manipulate the rest of the league, and then blamed his FOs for roster shortcommings that he had a hand in making. At some point, what you do on the court is not the only factor, and what Lebron did to repeatedly stack the deck off the court should be considered a significant negative in regard to his case as best ever.

#LeGMScrewedLeGOAT

[MavsDirk41]

You really think high school basketball and the Olympics is something that should seriously be discussed in a goat debate? If so you guys are getting desperate to prop up James. But whatever it takes right?

Is it seriously that hard for you to read the posts you were responding to? The discussion was about how the players performed in different leagues/with different rules (hence why international ball, college and highschool where zone was allowed were discussed).

Instead of reading the posts you were replying to you swoop in with a "LeBronze got a bronze medal lol!" and had no idea that he was only 20 years old and played only 3 minutes in that game

I gotta give it to you, you're the best MavsDirk. You can't write this stuff. Pure comedy.

Amusing for you to make such a comment given posting fixed opinions about LeBron regardless of any current discussion is pretty much your entire schtick, and again you are going straw man as is your wont. The essential point with which I agree was what do college ball or the Olympics have to do with the identity of the GOAT player of the NBA ?, which typically you haven’t answered.

And he wont answer….he just throws insults without adding any substance to the discussion

[Showtime 80]

Lol at the idea that Jordan was not a great college player or was a “bedwetter” in college. Jordan won college player of the year his junior year, and actually won player of the year by some publications his sophomore year as well (for instance, Sporting News gave him player of the year both years). Of course, he also won a national championship while making the championship-winning shot, and being named to the all-tournament team as a freshman. The idea that Jordan’s college career suggests he struggled outside of NBA rules is very obviously nonsense.

As for the 1992 Olympics stats, the sample size there is a grand total of 8 games, most of which was garbage time. Jordan also took on a much higher shot volume than anyone else. He was the one taking end-of-shot-clock shots, while the others were having a way higher percent of their shots be feasting on easy transition buckets. But yeah, in those 8 games, Jordan probably was actually a bit off—as we can also see from him only shooting 68% from the FT line, which obviously has nothing to do with rule differences. He did go 10-16 for a team-leading 22 points in 23 minutes in the Finals, though (which was the toughest game).

LOL at people using Michael’s paid Barcelona vacation in 1992 after going back to back as a barometer of anything! The only games were he gave a damn were against Croatia basically.

Go look at his 1984 Olympic stats were he led the team with 17 ppg at 55% FG or in college where he shot 54% for three years, both NCAA and international games didn’t have a 3 point shot to artificially spread the floor either. Heck he shot higher against these defenses than he ever did in the NBA

Zone defense leaves too many gaps for offensive monsters like MJ to exploit. You can get away with that against a player like 2011 LeBron with a suspect outside shot and no offensive go to moves like Dallas quickly found out.

[ScrantonBulls]

Is it seriously that hard for you to read the posts you were responding to? The discussion was about how the players performed in different leagues/with different rules (hence why international ball, college and highschool where zone was allowed were discussed).

Instead of reading the posts you were replying to you swoop in with a "LeBronze got a bronze medal lol!" and had no idea that he was only 20 years old and played only 3 minutes in that game

I gotta give it to you, you're the best MavsDirk. You can't write this stuff. Pure comedy.

Amusing for you to make such a comment given posting fixed opinions about LeBron regardless of any current discussion is pretty much your entire schtick, and again you are going straw man as is your wont. The essential point with which I agree was what do college ball or the Olympics have to do with the identity of the GOAT player of the NBA ?, which typically you haven’t answered.

And he wont answer….he just throws insults without adding any substance to the discussion

Like you being unable to respond to me directly because I've exposed you in so many debates? You refuse to even quote me directly

[Rust_Cohle]

Nice

https://talksport.com/basketball/3323877/cooper-flagg-nba-draft-lebron-james-michael-jordan-goat

[bledredwine]

Amusing for you to make such a comment given posting fixed opinions about LeBron regardless of any current discussion is pretty much your entire schtick, and again you are going straw man as is your wont. The essential point with which I agree was what do college ball or the Olympics have to do with the identity of the GOAT player of the NBA ?, which typically you haven’t answered.

And he wont answer….he just throws insults without adding any substance to the discussion

Like you being unable to respond to me directly because I've exposed you in so many debates? You refuse to even quote me directly

Seriously, just look at your last ten posts and count the number of times you bring up something basketball related and not purely emotional.

[michaelm]

At least then you'd be discussing games they actually played in.

You really think high school basketball and the Olympics is something that should seriously be discussed in a goat debate? If so you guys are getting desperate to prop up James. But whatever it takes right?

Is it seriously that hard for you to read the posts you were responding to? The discussion was about how the players performed in different leagues/with different rules (hence why international ball, college and highschool where zone was allowed were discussed).

Instead of reading the posts you were replying to you swoop in with a "LeBronze got a bronze medal lol!" and had no idea that he was only 20 years old and played only 3 minutes in that game

I gotta give it to you, you're the best MavsDirk. You can't write this stuff. Pure comedy.

Perhaps you could have a look at the title of the thread.

Of course the bronze medal in question has nothing to do with that topic, or with LeBron’s quality as an Olympic basketball player, but if someone chooses to disparage MJ overall on the spurious grounds of one Olympics, at which Jordan’s team still won the gold medal btw, someone else can reply and has replied. on the spurious grounds of one Olympics in which LeBron was involved.

It would appear the old English proverb of sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander never made it to the USA, or if it did fairly definitely hasn’t penetrated your consciousness.