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Shams: Lonzo for Okoro

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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#201 » by MGB8 » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:22 pm

Tetlak wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
Tetlak wrote:
Nobody eats Matas' minutes.

This is a direct competitor to PATRICK WILLIAMS.

Noa is frankly too raw to see the floor.


PW hasn't been good, but how does burying him on the bench help this team? His value goes down even more?

I guess that would make him even more difficult to trade than it is now.

That would be ok if the team was a real contender and if Okoro had more potential (besides a solid 3&D player). But theyre not contenders and his potential is limited.


To me here's the history with motivating Pat:

- Drafted him high, gave him all the opportunity in the world to start and play. Didn't work.

- Stuck with him through injuries, rewarded him with a big extension (undeservedly). Didnt work.

- Benched him! This is still new, so too early to tell.
- Brought in a direct competitor in position and role

The way I see it, this is the last ditch effort to motivate Pat if we're gonna be "stuck" with him.


None of this will motivate Pat. He is who he is. He has been trying. He is from all reports a good person, and good teammate, with a decent work ethic. He just isn’t learning or developing. Hopefully he is lighter (including maybe less muscle) and quicker this year, and that helps him look at least like the guy he looked like as a rookie.

I always comped him to Barnes (never Kawhi) because, like Barnes, he is a bit stiff in his movement and athleticism despite being strong and straight line fast. But Barnes had showed way more in college, and Pat somehow has gone backwards rather than going forwards.

The chances of Pat developing into something significant are basically null at this point. But he might still return to looking like a competent 3&d forward / big wing. Which would make him, while still overpaid, not as terrible a contract.
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#202 » by The Force. » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:23 pm

If this means AK doesn't go after Kuminga then I suppose it's good.

Obviously a nonsense trade but at least it's not a complete albatross—which is all we can hope for with this management.
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#203 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:25 pm

Added 12 million in guaranteed salary after next year for a complete bust. And got nothing for doing it. Can’t make up the incompetence.
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#204 » by _txchilibowl_ » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:26 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Cavs are laughing so hard right now. Thanks Bulls for getting us under the 2nd apron next year (and possibl6 this year) without us having to give away draft capital and getting a useful player back!!!

I literally had a thread on their situation and how even Okoro’s contract is problematic.


This is the thing. Even if Okoro for injury-prone Lonzo is a decent trade, every single time Bulls can have leverage in a trade, they don’t take it.



Or....Lonzo is viewed as a bigger negative asset than Okoro around the league. Quite frankly, the cap situation is probably the only reason Cleveland even entertained this idea.
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#205 » by Peelboy » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:26 pm

I guess AK's thinks he's the Pacers:
- Giddey as a poor mans' Haliburton
- Coby as a rich man's Nembhard
- Matas as a young/hopeful Siakam
- Okoro as a poor man's Obi
- Vuc/Pat as a homeless man's Turner
- Ayo as a poor man's McConnell (based on playoff minutes, TJ was awesome)

I suppose he thinks in 2 years Essengue is Turner?

But man that is one EXTREMELY poor man. There's the slimmest of shots that this works in 2025-26, but then Boston, IND, MIL all get stars back. And if this plan doesn't thread the needle of guys working out, the failure to acquire picks means there's no real flexibility to adapt/change course.
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#206 » by HomoSapien » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:28 pm

Cavs fan EternalWolf86 posted this analysis on Reddit:

I don't think I have to bring up his defense, you'll love him there. It never goes away and he can guard 1-3, including superstars.

So here's the thing with Okoro. For the past 3 seasons he got up to about 50% shooting from 3P range(40-60 percent) the last 3 seasons and then boom, minor injury for a week or two in January and his 3P shooting would be at 20% for the rest of the season. Every year I felt like I was repeating the joke that he was restarting at 0 XP from 3P range in the game threads, except he wasn't regaining any **** XP. It was literally like a permanent video game glitch where the only fix was to start from a new save/season, no better way to describe it.

He's become a good finisher in transition and started developing his drive more, becoming more reliable each season. That's where his real developmental area lays as the 3P shot is just a shot. He's got good enough at driving and finishing last season that I no longer mind when he does it. Only comes when he pump fakes from three, usually a tough baseline drive but he makes it work.

An issue there, and with him in general, is confidence or at least not being hesitant in those scenarios. When he sees it before hand it's gold, but sometimes he'll pass on an open 3 or sometimes he will have a lane and just not drive. It's not because the team doesn't want him to or anything like that, it just something that he does, usually after he loses his 3P shot due to his annual injury.

He doesn't have a mid-range game at all but he doesn't need to work on that yet. He also won't need one if he can just be consistent at defense, 3P shooting and driving from the perimeter.

He kind of gets lost in the playoffs. I think its due to restricted minutes simply because its the playoffs and a reduced offensive role. Not being able to get in the game, so it's play defense and he becomes a wasted spot on offense because we all of a sudden turn into an ISO team when met with competition in the playoffs. It's my one knock on Mitchell, trying to do to much in the playoffs every season and it effects everyone else. Cavs stuff, sorry.

I'm a fan of Okoro. He is a truther player, one with fans who believe in him because they have seen how effective he can be and ones who only see the bad in him or just watch the playoffs, writing him off entirely.

IMO he will put it all together and become a long term franchise role player or eventually that guy every contender wants to trade for as a missing piece off the bench later in his career. He won't just play out this contract and be done or be a guy that never sees the floor again. His defense alone dictates he won't be that, but he will be more than just a defensive specialist.

You'll like him and if he doesn't fix that stupid XP issue you'll be just like Cavs fans. Either believe he can be a complete player because it makes no sense that he isn't or hate him because he regresses as the season goes on, again, only after a usually irrelevant injury like a cold or something.

I have more faith that Okoro will be a contributor for the next 5 seasons than Lonzo. Cavs might need Lonzo though with Garland injured and Jerome possibly gone so I understand it. Okoro is undersized as a 3 and D as well, but his defense is so good against any 3 really that it just was never an issue.

Also, it seems no team wants Okoro(Cavs re-signed him for a minimum contract last off-season) while Lonzo seemingly still has some trade value. Cavs need assets so I guess that's an upgrade there. Player wise though, I think you'll end up liking Okoro more than Lonzo. Both right now are "the idea of Okoro/Lonzo is nice, the reality is not".

Oh, he goes by ICE, in case you didn't know. Also a bit fun/goofy personality wise.
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#207 » by MGB8 » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:30 pm

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
Cavs are laughing so hard right now. Thanks Bulls for getting us under the 2nd apron next year (and possibl6 this year) without us having to give away draft capital and getting a useful player back!!!

I literally had a thread on their situation and how even Okoro’s contract is problematic.


This is the thing. Even if Okoro for injury-prone Lonzo is a decent trade, every single time Bulls can have leverage in a trade, they don’t take it.



Or....Lonzo is viewed as a bigger negative asset than Okoro around the league. Quite frankly, the cap situation is probably the only reason Cleveland even entertained this idea.


Lonzo is on effectively 1 year deal. And even with his injury issues, and with struggles last season (though an amazing come back and still looked damned good considering the layoff, still showed his bball IQ and could hand on D)… you can hope the shot fully returns to form.

Okoro averaged 6 ppg in 20 minutes and his D wasn’t that great, either (though not awful)…. And you have to pay him not just 11 M this year but 12 M next.

It is stupid and unjustifiable. Unused cap space is better than Isaac Okoro at 11.8 M - unless he takes a huge leap forward.
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#208 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:30 pm

The Force. wrote:If this means AK doesn't go after Kuminga then I suppose it's good.

Obviously a nonsense trade but at least it's not a complete albatross—which is all we can hope for with this management.


As little sense as it’d make to roster both Okoro and Kuminga, I’d almost have to respect AK going all in on this whole second contract rehab thing.

I’m way less interested in a cohesive team than I am asset accumulation. If this is AK’s approach to collecting assets, well — he’s probably dead wrong because he’s a stupid stupid man, but I’d find the commitment to a vision at least a *little* exciting.

That said, my guess is that GSW’s asking price for Kuminga was too high and Okoro is the pivot.
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#209 » by Guru » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:30 pm

We like athletic young guys who can play defense and shoot. We also like guys who were drafted early (Duarte-Smith-Giddey-Huerter somewhat)
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#210 » by MGB8 » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:32 pm

Guru wrote:We like athletic young guys who can play defense and shoot. We also like guys who were drafted early (Duarte-Smith-Giddey-Huerter somewhat)


Career 35% from 3 (low volume) and 73% from FT line… I mean, he *can* shoot. Shoot well though…. Eh….
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#211 » by Dan Z » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:35 pm

greenwing wrote:Despite being on the team for four season and being given a 2-year extension, Lonzo Ball only played in 70 official games as a Bull and has never played a single playoff game in his career. Okoro is younger, less injury-prone (at least compared to Lonzo) and actually plays a position of need as a backup 2/3. If the plan was to re-sign Giddey and attempt to bring back Jones then this allows us the flexibility to do so. The only thing I don't like about this is the second year is guaranteed while Lonzo's contract had a team option. But other than that it's not a bad move, it just doesn't move the needle a ton.


How does this help re-sign Giddey and Jones? Its a 1 for 1 trade, so it doesn't help with roster spots and Okoro makes a million more per year than Lonzo.
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#212 » by _txchilibowl_ » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:35 pm

MGB8 wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
This is the thing. Even if Okoro for injury-prone Lonzo is a decent trade, every single time Bulls can have leverage in a trade, they don’t take it.



Or....Lonzo is viewed as a bigger negative asset than Okoro around the league. Quite frankly, the cap situation is probably the only reason Cleveland even entertained this idea.


Lonzo is on effectively 1 year deal. And even with his injury issues, and with struggles last season (though an amazing come back and still looked damned good considering the layoff, still showed his bball IQ and could hand on D)… you can hope the shot fully returns to form.

Okoro averaged 6 ppg in 20 minutes and his D wasn’t that great, either…. And you have to pay him not just 11 M this year but 12 M next.

It is stupid and unjustifiable. Unused cap space is better than Isaac Okoro at 11.8 M - unless he takes a huge leap forward.



It's completely justifiable. You just don't like it. Okoro is the better, younger player who still has some upside and is signed to a team friendly contract. He doesn't need to make a huge leap forward to be worth a below average contract. He just needs to be a little bit better, which isn't a huge ask for someone as young as him.

And if the Bulls need to clear a 11 million dollar expiring contract it won't be that hard.
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#213 » by Guru » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:38 pm

MGB8 wrote:
Guru wrote:We like athletic young guys who can play defense and shoot. We also like guys who were drafted early (Duarte-Smith-Giddey-Huerter somewhat)


Career 35% from 3 (low volume) and 73% from FT line… I mean, he *can* shoot. Shoot well though…. Eh….


You aren't made at either of those numbers
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#214 » by Dan Z » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:40 pm

Tetlak wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
Tetlak wrote:
Nobody eats Matas' minutes.

This is a direct competitor to PATRICK WILLIAMS.

Noa is frankly too raw to see the floor.


PW hasn't been good, but how does burying him on the bench help this team? His value goes down even more?

I guess that would make him even more difficult to trade than it is now.

That would be ok if the team was a real contender and if Okoro had more potential (besides a solid 3&D player). But theyre not contenders and his potential is limited.


To me here's the history with motivating Pat:

- Drafted him high, gave him all the opportunity in the world to start and play. Didn't work.

- Stuck with him through injuries, rewarded him with a big extension (undeservedly). Didnt work.

- Benched him! This is still new, so too early to tell.
- Brought in a direct competitor in position and role

The way I see it, this is the last ditch effort to motivate Pat if we're gonna be "stuck" with him.


I'm not suggesting the Bulls give him big minutes, but burying him on the bench won't do anything. It won't matter if he improved because its likely that he won't be able to showcase it.

Like I said I'd feel different if the Bull were a contender, but they're not. They have to think about the teams future (AK seems to only think about the present).
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#215 » by Guru » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:40 pm

Have we recenrly traded for a player who played worse for us than their previous team?
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#216 » by Dan Z » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:46 pm

What do the minutes/rotation look like for the Bulls forwards next year?
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#217 » by nomorezorro » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:46 pm

Guru wrote:Have we recenrly traded for a player who played worse for us than their previous team?


not really since vucevic, although this is easier to achieve when you take a couple of years off of making trades
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#218 » by Chi town » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:48 pm

Watching more of Okoro…

His 3 ball has come along a way. It’s quick and clean. Looks better than Pat’s.

He’s also a good cutter off ball.

Looks good in transition down hill. Really good athlete.

Can defend 1-3. Will be guarding best guard wing. Big help that he can defend smaller guards.

If we resign Tre we have def taken a big step fwd for defense with Tre Okoro and Noa.

I’ve also said how in the playoffs you need both length and strength. Muscle to body up and shut down penetration while also having some length for rim protection.

We now have strength in Okoro and Pat and length in Buz and Noa.

The disappointment is in thinking Zo was worth more.
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#219 » by greenwing » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:49 pm

Dan Z wrote:
greenwing wrote:Despite being on the team for four season and being given a 2-year extension, Lonzo Ball only played in 70 official games as a Bull and has never played a single playoff game in his career. Okoro is younger, less injury-prone (at least compared to Lonzo) and actually plays a position of need as a backup 2/3. If the plan was to re-sign Giddey and attempt to bring back Jones then this allows us the flexibility to do so. The only thing I don't like about this is the second year is guaranteed while Lonzo's contract had a team option. But other than that it's not a bad move, it just doesn't move the needle a ton.


How does this help re-sign Giddey and Jones? Its a 1 for 1 trade, so it doesn't help with roster spots and Okoro makes a million more per year than Lonzo.


It opens up more minutes at the 1. Guys want playing time to showcase their skills. Had Lonzo been healthy, Jones would have been further buried in the rotation last season most likely. It also allows Giddey to keep a high USG%. If you have a healthy Giddey/Ball/Jones you have a USG% of roughly 20/16/16. This means there will be rotations where at least one guy is having to play off-ball and you still have Coby at 24+% thrown into the mix. Okoro is a guy 13% guy which means he's mostly playing off-ball.
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Re: Shams: Lonzo for Okoro 

Post#220 » by DuckIII » Sat Jun 28, 2025 6:49 pm

Chi town wrote:I like what Gottlieb said…

This raises our floor but lowers our ceiling as it takes mins from Buz and Noa.

Let me say it again…

AK wants to win not build a winner.


That would be evidence of the premise if Gottlieb’s underlying speculation was not obvious horse dung about Matas. And I’d rather have Okoro “eating” Noa’s minutes than a non-NBA scrub like Terry.

Noa is an 18 year old sushi-raw prospect. His minutes won’t be eaten by anyone. They will be inherently limited to some degree a matter of development. Someone has to play.

I guess people are excited about Pat and Terry getting all that run. Whoda thunkit?
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