RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[michaelm]

Lol at the idea that Jordan was not a great college player or was a “bedwetter” in college. Jordan won college player of the year his junior year, and actually won player of the year by some publications his sophomore year as well (for instance, Sporting News gave him player of the year both years). Of course, he also won a national championship while making the championship-winning shot, and being named to the all-tournament team as a freshman. The idea that Jordan’s college career suggests he struggled outside of NBA rules is very obviously nonsense.

As for the 1992 Olympics stats, the sample size there is a grand total of 8 games, most of which was garbage time. Jordan also took on a much higher shot volume than anyone else. He was the one taking end-of-shot-clock shots, while the others were having a way higher percent of their shots be feasting on easy transition buckets. But yeah, in those 8 games, Jordan probably was actually a bit off—as we can also see from him only shooting 68% from the FT line, which obviously has nothing to do with rule differences. He did go 10-16 for a team-leading 22 points in 23 minutes in the Finals, though (which was the toughest game).

LOL at people using Michael’s paid Barcelona vacation in 1992 after going back to back as a barometer of anything! The only games were he gave a damn were against Croatia basically.

Go look at his 1984 Olympic stats were he led the team with 17 ppg at 55% FG or in college where he shot 54% for three years, both NCAA and international games didn’t have a 3 point shot to artificially spread the floor either. Heck he shot higher against these defenses than he ever did in the NBA

Zone defense leaves too many gaps for offensive monsters like MJ to exploit. You can get away with that against a player like 2011 LeBron with a suspect outside shot and no offensive go to moves like Dallas quickly found out.

Exactly. I am sure this would qualify as whataboutism for Scranton Bulls however.

[Iwasawitness]

Lebron stacked the deck by teaming up with his biggest rivals, started his own agency which forced his team to trade/re-sign guys he wanted to play with, signed his biggest rivals and convinced them to demand trades to his team and no other, used his agency to manipulate the rest of the league, and then blamed his FOs for roster shortcommings that he had a hand in making. At some point, what you do on the court is not the only factor, and what Lebron did to repeatedly stack the deck off the court should be considered a significant negative in regard to his case as best ever.

When did LeBron team up with his biggest rivals?

[ScrantonBulls]

And he wont answer….he just throws insults without adding any substance to the discussion

Like you being unable to respond to me directly because I've exposed you in so many debates? You refuse to even quote me directly

Seriously, just look at your last ten posts and count the number of times you bring up something basketball related and not purely emotional.

Here's something basketball related for you. Can you name the three incorrect statements within that small paragraph? It shouldn't be too difficult. It isn't exactly Where's Waldo.

There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the NY Knicks

[michaelm]

Lebron stacked the deck by teaming up with his biggest rivals, started his own agency which forced his team to trade/re-sign guys he wanted to play with, signed his biggest rivals and convinced them to demand trades to his team and no other, used his agency to manipulate the rest of the league, and then blamed his FOs for roster shortcommings that he had a hand in making. At some point, what you do on the court is not the only factor, and what Lebron did to repeatedly stack the deck off the court should be considered a significant negative in regard to his case as best ever.

When did LeBron team up with his biggest rivals?

He teamed up with other elite players 3 times, twice with players widely considered top 5 in the NBA. How extreme they were as rivals is a point for subtle definition, and/or sophistry from LeBron fans, but imo KD regarded LeBron as his greatest rival, not Curry or GSW, which is probably testament to LeBron but KD to GSW was also a consequence of LeBron’s own actions and choices; there is again imo no way KD joins GSW without LeBron previously forming both the Heatles, and the Cavs team his second time around at the Cavs, and he and the Heatles being acclaimed for beating KD and his fledgling OKC team in 2012. No one has ever explained to me why there should have been any restrictions on what other elite players chose to do as FAs after 2010. As KD actually said, maintaining parity in the NBA was never in his job description/contract.

I myself have no problem with any choice LeBron made as a Free Agent, but found the AD signing to the Lakers a little smelly given he was mid contract rather than a FA and was a Klutch client, but he only has one career himself and the Pelicans were not exactly a well run franchise where he had good ongoing prospects so I can sympathise with him not wanting to waste further years of his prime there even if it involved reneging on a contract.

[Statlanta]

I'm still probably a Jordan believer, but the longer time goes on, the more unlikely it is anyone will match Jordan's legacy. Because he's the GOAT, or because the league has gotten so much more competitive? tough to say. I probably would've sided with LeBron if I never saw Kawhi Leonard in his prime.

Anyways, even for me, Jordan is the GOAT. Anyone who doesn't have LeBron as #2 is making **** up.

I don't think it's unlikely, we've seen a team three-peat literally 4 years after Jordan, We've seen a team beat Jordan's regular season 72-10 record. We've had a SG come close to his single season scoring average. Hell just 1 generation after Jordan we've had two HOF players end their careers with 5 championships.

We just need a player whose career accolades have the right combination.

[Statlanta]

If you switched Jordan's accomplishments for James', LeBron James would be the clear undisputed G.O.A.T especially in this media landscape.

Jordan would be more compared to a worse but more entertaining Kareem Abdul-Jabbar if he had LeBron James statistics and accolades.

Imagine what 6 rings for a city like Cleveland would do to the debate.




As it stands James has 1 ring for Cleveland, 2 rings in his friend's city, and 1 ring for one of the best franchises in all of sports.

Even if you gave LeBron James the argument for better stats and worse luck than Jordan; the narrative of Jordan building up Chicago to have the 4th most(3rd, only behind LA/Boston when he retired) championships of all the NBA teams is hard to crack especially given he and his supporting cast had to evolve together to get those accolades.

[Iwasawitness]

Lebron stacked the deck by teaming up with his biggest rivals, started his own agency which forced his team to trade/re-sign guys he wanted to play with, signed his biggest rivals and convinced them to demand trades to his team and no other, used his agency to manipulate the rest of the league, and then blamed his FOs for roster shortcommings that he had a hand in making. At some point, what you do on the court is not the only factor, and what Lebron did to repeatedly stack the deck off the court should be considered a significant negative in regard to his case as best ever.

When did LeBron team up with his biggest rivals?

He teamed up with other elite players 3 times, twice with players widely considered top 5 in the NBA. How extreme they were as rivals is a point for subtle definition, and/or sophistry from LeBron fans, but imo KD regarded LeBron as his greatest rival, not Curry or GSW, which is probably testament to LeBron but KD to GSW was also a consequence of LeBron’s own actions and choices; there is again imo no way KD joins GSW without LeBron previously forming both the Heatles, and the Cavs team his second time around at the Cavs, and he and the Heatles being acclaimed for beating KD and his fledgling OKC team in 2012. No one has ever explained to me why there should have been any restrictions on what other elite players chose to do as FAs after 2010. As KD actually said, maintaining parity in the NBA was never in his job description/contract.

I myself have no problem with any choice LeBron made as a Free Agent, but found the AD signing to the Lakers a little smelly given he was mid contract rather than a FA and was a Klutch client, but he only has one career himself and the Pelicans were not exactly a well run franchise where he had good ongoing prospects so I can sympathise with him not wanting to waste further years of his prime there even if it involved reneging on a contract.

At no point in this long drawn out drivel did you ever answer my question, so I'll ask it again:

When did LeBron team up with his rivals?

[MavsDirk41]

And he wont answer….he just throws insults without adding any substance to the discussion

Like you being unable to respond to me directly because I've exposed you in so many debates? You refuse to even quote me directly

Seriously, just look at your last ten posts and count the number of times you bring up something basketball related and not purely emotional.

Better be careful or he might “expose you” lol

[AlexanderRight]

When did LeBron team up with his biggest rivals?

He teamed up with other elite players 3 times, twice with players widely considered top 5 in the NBA. How extreme they were as rivals is a point for subtle definition, and/or sophistry from LeBron fans, but imo KD regarded LeBron as his greatest rival, not Curry or GSW, which is probably testament to LeBron but KD to GSW was also a consequence of LeBron’s own actions and choices; there is again imo no way KD joins GSW without LeBron previously forming both the Heatles, and the Cavs team his second time around at the Cavs, and he and the Heatles being acclaimed for beating KD and his fledgling OKC team in 2012. No one has ever explained to me why there should have been any restrictions on what other elite players chose to do as FAs after 2010. As KD actually said, maintaining parity in the NBA was never in his job description/contract.

I myself have no problem with any choice LeBron made as a Free Agent, but found the AD signing to the Lakers a little smelly given he was mid contract rather than a FA and was a Klutch client, but he only has one career himself and the Pelicans were not exactly a well run franchise where he had good ongoing prospects so I can sympathise with him not wanting to waste further years of his prime there even if it involved reneging on a contract.

At no point in this long drawn out drivel did you ever answer my question, so I'll ask it again:

When did LeBron team up with his rivals?

"Rival" is a subjective term. Anyone can interpret it the way they want to to fit their narrative.

Two separate times, LBJ purposely manufactured arguably the 2nd best player in world to be on his team. AD was 1st All NBA the year before and after he teamed with Lebron while sharing the same forward position. Wade was 1st All NBA for two years straight leading up to The Decision while sharing the same draft class. Now you're gonna pretend that that's not important or relevant in a GOAT discussion, but many would be inclined to disagree.

You're also gonna purposely restrict your definition of "rival" to just someone LBJ "had beef with" or played multiple times in the playoffs.

Others could have the position that any all time player that was drafted with LBJ, was arguably just as good as LBJ and enjoyed more team success than LBJ could be his rival, like Wade. Or that any MVP caliber player that was also the #1 pick and also a forward could be his rival, like AD. Which would both be reasonable positions.

Even if it were conceded that Wade and AD weren't LBJ's "rivals" a legitimate argument can be made that both times the two best players in the world were purposely playing together.

[Yank3525]

If you switched Jordan's accomplishments for James', LeBron James would be the clear undisputed G.O.A.T especially in this media landscape.

Jordan would be more compared to a worse but more entertaining Kareem Abdul-Jabbar if he had LeBron James statistics and accolades.

Imagine what 6 rings for a city like Cleveland would do to the debate.




As it stands James has 1 ring for Cleveland, 2 rings in his friend's city, and 1 ring for one of the best franchises in all of sports.

Even if you gave LeBron James the argument for better stats and worse luck than Jordan; the narrative of Jordan building up Chicago to have the 4th most(3rd, only behind LA/Boston when he retired) championships of all the NBA teams is hard to crack especially given he and his supporting cast had to evolve together to get those accolades.

Yup.

I would go as far as saying if LeBron had stayed in Cleveland in 2010 and won 2-3 titles along with the longevity, I think he would have a stronger case in the eyes of the public. The final ring count has always been an overrated aspect of the GOAT debate. How you win them and where is more important then the final total. Like Mike was seen as the goat in 1993 with "just" three rings because he accomplished a three peat something Magic, Bird etc. never did. and he also did it on a historically poverty franchise.

[Iwasawitness]

"Rival" is a subjective term. Anyone can interpret it the way they want to to fit their narrative.

I mean sure, but you're going to have to stretch your argument BIG TIME to even suggest that Wade was in anyway shape or form his biggest rival. You can ask any Cavaliers fan at the time who they thought LeBron's biggest rivals were and they'd tell you it's Kobe, Pierce, or Howard. But see, unlike Bosh, Wade would at least be in the conversation since he makes sense. They had some big time battles, came from the same draft class and Miami was a consistent playoff team. You could tell me Wade was one of his rivals and I wouldn't say no to it. Bosh wouldn't even be a thought. But for some reason, he's suddenly a rival according to West.

Two separate times, LBJ purposely manufactured arguably the 2nd best player in world to be on his team. AD was 1st All NBA the year before and after he teamed with Lebron while sharing the same forward position. Wade was 1st All NBA for two years straight leading up to The Decision while sharing the same draft class. Now you're gonna pretend that that's not important or relevant in a GOAT discussion, but many would be inclined to disagree.

It's at this point that I find myself asking why I even bother with you. You continue to make **** up and expect dumb people to fall for it. Why?

You couldn't have been more wrong on both sides, apart from LeBron bringing AD to LA (since we know he played a part in this).

AD was first team all NBA the year before he teamed with LeBron? Are you sure about that? Are you sure you don't want to at the very least put in a LITTLE bit of effort and do some actual research? The year after? That isn't even true either. He WAS first team all NBA the first year he teamed with LeBron, but that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Anthony Davis had no argument for being the second best player in the league at that point. Let's take LeBron out of the equation for a moment. You still have the likes of Curry, Giannis, Kawhi and Durant, all of whom have better cases at this point as being better players than AD. He needs an argument to just be considered top five, and you want to pretend he was THAT good to the point where he could be argued as the second best player? Lmao.

It gets even worse once we get to Wade. See, unlike AD who we know LeBron played a hand in bringing to LA, it makes absolutely no sense to claim he "manufactured" Wade to be on his team.

Wade didn't join LeBron's team. LeBron joined WADE'S team. On that aspect alone you're already wrong. But the thing is, everyone and their mom knows that LeBron wasn't deadset on joining Miami from the start. He wanted to stay in Cleveland. He tried convincing multiple all star level players to come to Cleveland, most famously Bosh who outright told him no. He was legitimately conflicted on the idea of leaving Cleveland, to the point where his own mom had to tell him to stop worrying what other people thought and to just do what was best for him. But somehow, someway, he manufactured Wade staying on the Heat, something he was planning on doing from the start.

And I'm sorry, in what world was Wade the second best player in the world in 2010? He wasn't even the best player at his own position. But I'll give you this: he at least had a better argument than AD, and even then, it's still a very, very weak one.

This is why I don't take you seriously as a poster, and why I don't bother with these discussions much anymore. You guys don't use facts, you purposely revise history and expect me to be stupid enough not to remember any of it, and then accuse us of doing the exact thing you do on a regular basis. This is why other LeBron haters on this site are embarrassed of people like you.

You're also gonna purposely restrict your definition of "rival" to just someone LBJ "had beef with" or played multiple times in the playoffs.

No. Unlike you and many others I'm actually capable of being objective.

Others could have the position that any all time player that was drafted with LBJ, was arguably just as good as LBJ and enjoyed more team success than LBJ could be his rival, like Wade. Or that any MVP caliber player that was also the #1 pick and also a forward could be his rival, like AD. Which would both be reasonable positions.

Even if it were conceded that Wade and AD weren't LBJ's "rivals" a legitimate argument can be made that both times the two best players in the world were purposely playing together.

No, it can't. Neither Wade or AD have any argument for being the second best player in the world at the time they became teammates with LeBron. You have to be completely braindead to think this.

[VanWest82]

I myself have no problem with any choice LeBron made as a Free Agent, but found the AD signing to the Lakers a little smelly given he was mid contract rather than a FA and was a Klutch client, but he only has one career himself and the Pelicans were not exactly a well run franchise where he had good ongoing prospects so I can sympathise with him not wanting to waste further years of his prime there even if it involved reneging on a contract.

Some points of clarification here.

The main argument in my OP was how Lebron used his own agency as a tool of manipulation over and over to his advantage (and occasional disadvantage because as it turns out LeGM is a tad overrated). The AD trade was an example of this (i.e. signing a top player and then demanding a trade to Lebron's team). Another example was the contract negotiations with Tristan Thompson and Iman Shumpert (both Klutch clients) and the Cavs being clouded by the threat of what Lebron might do had they broken down and Cavs had gone in another direction. It could be argued that teams have to worry about this stuff anyway, including situations where agents represent multiple star players on the same team, but we've never really seen a case where the agency is the star player who's also the best player in the league. It's an added layer of influence that has manifested itself in increased power and control over team building decisions like we haven't seen before.

Also, while I generally am for the players in pursuing their free agency ambitions, I do have a problem with the best guys colluding to team up and create super teams as Lebron, Wade, and Bosh did in Miami and KD, Curry, and Draymond did in GS. It fundamentally destroys the competitive balance of the league. As NBA fans, we lost a whole decade to this nonsense. There will be times when it happens naturally like with the Bulls in the 90s or Celtics/Lakers in the 80s, but at least you had separation of church and state in those situations, making it less smelly as you put it. It goes to the notion of fair play in any game. It's a concept that even small children understand as every kid has been involved in a game where the best players decided to team up ruin the experience for the rest of the kids. Lebron and KD undermined that multiple times. As far as I'm concerned, these guys are cheaters and should be branded as such.

[AlexanderRight]

I mean sure, but you're going to have to stretch your argument BIG TIME to even suggest that Wade was in anyway shape or form his biggest rival. You could tell me Wade was one of his rivals and I wouldn't say no to it.

I didn't say biggest rival. I said a rival, which you just conceded. So moving along...

AD was first team all NBA the year before he teamed with LeBron? Are you sure about that? Are you sure you don't want to at the very least put in a LITTLE bit of effort and do some actual research? The year after? That isn't even true either. He WAS first team all NBA the first year he teamed with LeBron, but that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Anthony Davis had no argument for being the second best player in the league at that point. Let's take LeBron out of the equation for a moment. You still have the likes of Curry, Giannis, Kawhi and Durant, all of whom have better cases at this point as being better players than AD. He needs an argument to just be considered top five, and you want to pretend he was THAT good to the point where he could be argued as the second best player? Lmao.

AD was named 1st Team All NBA in summer 2018 and the summer of 2020. 1 year before and after he teamed up with LBJ in the summer of 2019. You see how that works right? 1 year before and after he teamed up with LBJ, he was named an All NBA 1st team. Try to focus here...

It gets even worse once we get to Wade. See, unlike AD who we know LeBron played a hand in bringing to LA, it makes absolutely no sense to claim he "manufactured" Wade to be on his team. Wade didn't join LeBron's team. LeBron joined WADE'S team. On that aspect alone you're already wrong. But the thing is, everyone and their mom knows that LeBron wasn't deadset on joining Miami from the start. He wanted to stay in Cleveland. He tried convincing multiple all star level players to come to Cleveland, most famously Bosh who outright told him no. He was legitimately conflicted on the idea of leaving Cleveland, to the point where his own mom had to tell him to stop worrying what other people thought and to just do what was best for him. But somehow, someway, he manufactured Wade staying on the Heat, something he was planning on doing from the start.

3rd straight time you get get lost in meaningless semantics. LBJ purposely manufactured being on the same team as Wade. Whether it was the Cavs or the Heat is irrelevant. Any team LBJ is on is by definition his team in a literal sense. That's what I mean when I say "his team". I'm speaking in a literal sense. Now in a leadership sense that's a different story. It was definitely Wade's team in a leadership sense but that's not what I was referring to. Regardless, LBJ knowingly and purposely chose to share the same jersey as Wade/Bosh after Wade/Bosh were committed to Miami. Your little sob story about how "conflicted" LBJ was before he made his decision is completely irrelevant to the actual decision that he made.

And I'm sorry, in what world was Wade the second best player in the world in 2010?

The same world where Wade was All NBA 1st Team two straight years, Top 5 in MVP voting two straight years, and averaged better PPG, APG, BPG, SPG and better FG% than Kobe OVER the last two regular seasons, while averaging 33/5/7 on 50%+ shooting and 40%+ shooting from 3 in the playoffs before Lebron called him up. I said it was arguable, and yes with those numbers, it is arguable that Wade was the 2nd best player in the world in 2010.

Neither Wade or AD have any argument for being the second best player in the world at the time they became teammates with LeBron. You have to be completely braindead to think this.

The better question is what world does a All NBA 1st Team player not at least have an argument for 2nd best player in the world? I just gave you the numbers on Wade. AD was All NBA 1st team 3 times BEFORE teaming up with LBJ. He was probably the best defensive player in the league having made All-Defensive Team 3 times and was Block Leader 3 times BEFORE teaming with Lebron. And this was all BEFORE the bubble. I get everyone has their preference, but to pretend AD/Wade wasn't in the conversation with that kind of production while calling me braindead is pretty hilarious.

[ScrantonBulls]

"Rival" is a subjective term. Anyone can interpret it the way they want to to fit their narrative.

I mean sure, but you're going to have to stretch your argument BIG TIME to even suggest that Wade was in anyway shape or form his biggest rival. You can ask any Cavaliers fan at the time who they thought LeBron's biggest rivals were and they'd tell you it's Kobe, Pierce, or Howard. But see, unlike Bosh, Wade would at least be in the conversation since he makes sense. They had some big time battles, came from the same draft class and Miami was a consistent playoff team. You could tell me Wade was one of his rivals and I wouldn't say no to it. Bosh wouldn't even be a thought. But for some reason, he's suddenly a rival according to West.

Two separate times, LBJ purposely manufactured arguably the 2nd best player in world to be on his team. AD was 1st All NBA the year before and after he teamed with Lebron while sharing the same forward position. Wade was 1st All NBA for two years straight leading up to The Decision while sharing the same draft class. Now you're gonna pretend that that's not important or relevant in a GOAT discussion, but many would be inclined to disagree.

It's at this point that I find myself asking why I even bother with you. You continue to make **** up and expect dumb people to fall for it. Why?

You couldn't have been more wrong on both sides, apart from LeBron bringing AD to LA (since we know he played a part in this).

AD was first team all NBA the year before he teamed with LeBron? Are you sure about that? Are you sure you don't want to at the very least put in a LITTLE bit of effort and do some actual research? The year after? That isn't even true either. He WAS first team all NBA the first year he teamed with LeBron, but that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Anthony Davis had no argument for being the second best player in the league at that point. Let's take LeBron out of the equation for a moment. You still have the likes of Curry, Giannis, Kawhi and Durant, all of whom have better cases at this point as being better players than AD. He needs an argument to just be considered top five, and you want to pretend he was THAT good to the point where he could be argued as the second best player? Lmao.

It gets even worse once we get to Wade. See, unlike AD who we know LeBron played a hand in bringing to LA, it makes absolutely no sense to claim he "manufactured" Wade to be on his team.

Wade didn't join LeBron's team. LeBron joined WADE'S team. On that aspect alone you're already wrong. But the thing is, everyone and their mom knows that LeBron wasn't deadset on joining Miami from the start. He wanted to stay in Cleveland. He tried convincing multiple all star level players to come to Cleveland, most famously Bosh who outright told him no. He was legitimately conflicted on the idea of leaving Cleveland, to the point where his own mom had to tell him to stop worrying what other people thought and to just do what was best for him. But somehow, someway, he manufactured Wade staying on the Heat, something he was planning on doing from the start.

And I'm sorry, in what world was Wade the second best player in the world in 2010? He wasn't even the best player at his own position. But I'll give you this: he at least had a better argument than AD, and even then, it's still a very, very weak one.

This is why I don't take you seriously as a poster, and why I don't bother with these discussions much anymore. You guys don't use facts, you purposely revise history and expect me to be stupid enough not to remember any of it, and then accuse us of doing the exact thing you do on a regular basis. This is why other LeBron haters on this site are embarrassed of people like you.

You're also gonna purposely restrict your definition of "rival" to just someone LBJ "had beef with" or played multiple times in the playoffs.

No. Unlike you and many others I'm actually capable of being objective.

Others could have the position that any all time player that was drafted with LBJ, was arguably just as good as LBJ and enjoyed more team success than LBJ could be his rival, like Wade. Or that any MVP caliber player that was also the #1 pick and also a forward could be his rival, like AD. Which would both be reasonable positions.

Even if it were conceded that Wade and AD weren't LBJ's "rivals" a legitimate argument can be made that both times the two best players in the world were purposely playing together.

No, it can't. Neither Wade or AD have any argument for being the second best player in the world at the time they became teammates with LeBron. You have to be completely braindead to think this.

I don't always see eye to eye with you, but you hit the nail on the head. It really isn't worth responding. There's a decently sized subset of LeBron haters on here that have such a pathological hatred towards LeBron that they completely abandon truth and rational thinking. They'll resort to completely lying about him while hoping nobody will notice. They'll make claims without even bothering to fact check them. Obvious double standards run rampant. The arguments put forth are often very intellectually dishonest and devoid of any context.

My recent favorite is the poster who just used LeBron's bronze medal against him - when he was a 20 year old that only played 3 MINUTES in the game they lost against Argentina, lmao. That was a couple pages ago. That's peak intellectual dishonesty and a great example of the lengths they will go to try and discredit LeBron.

These people dominate the discussion. Just look at this thread and you'll find a lot of them. It's really, really sad that people can despise an NBA player so much that it makes them abandon rational thinking. It's not healthy to harbor strong negative feelings towards a person that has zero impact on your life. I hope they can find peace within themselves.

[AlexanderRight]

I don't always see eye to eye with you, but you hit the nail on the head. It really isn't worth responding. There's a decently sized subset of LeBron haters on here that have such a pathological hatred towards LeBron that they completely abandon truth and rational thinking. They'll resort to completely lying about him while hoping nobody will notice. They'll make claims without even bothering to fact check them. Obvious double standards run rampant. The arguments put forth are often very intellectually dishonest and devoid of any context.

My recent favorite is the poster who just used LeBron's bronze medal against him - when he was a 20 year old that only played 3 MINUTES in the game they lost against Argentina, lmao. That was a couple pages ago. That's peak intellectual dishonesty and a great example of the lengths they will go to try and discredit LeBron.

These people dominate the discussion. Just look at this thread and you'll find a lot of them. It's really, really sad that people can despise an NBA player so much that it makes them abandon rational thinking. It's not healthy to harbor strong negative feelings towards a person that has zero impact on your life. I hope they can find peace within themselves.

You should look up "ad hominem fallacy". You'll learn a lot from it.

Once again, you've resorted to critiquing the poster instead of the actual argument made. Who would've saw that coming...

And I love how you say "these people dominate the discussion" when you and "IWasAwitness" flood the pages of every GOAT thread. I wouldn't be surpised if you're the same poster

[Iwasawitness]

I don't always see eye to eye with you, but you hit the nail on the head. It really isn't worth responding. There's a decently sized subset of LeBron haters on here that have such a pathological hatred towards LeBron that they completely abandon truth and rational thinking. They'll resort to completely lying about him while hoping nobody will notice. They'll make claims without even bothering to fact check them. Obvious double standards run rampant. The arguments put forth are often very intellectually dishonest and devoid of any context.

My recent favorite is the poster who just used LeBron's bronze medal against him - when he was a 20 year old that only played 3 MINUTES in the game they lost against Argentina, lmao. That was a couple pages ago. That's peak intellectual dishonesty and a great example of the lengths they will go to try and discredit LeBron.

These people dominate the discussion. Just look at this thread and you'll find a lot of them. It's really, really sad that people can despise an NBA player so much that it makes them abandon rational thinking. It's not healthy to harbor strong negative feelings towards a person that has zero impact on your life. I hope they can find peace within themselves.

You should look up "ad hominem fallacy". You'll learn a lot from it.

Once again, you've resorted to critiquing the poster instead of the actual argument made. Who would've saw that coming...

And I love how you say "these people dominate the discussion" when you and "IWasAwitness" flood the pages of every GOAT thread. I wouldn't be surpised if you're the same poster

Do us a favor and get the poster count from both goat threads and tell us who had the most posts. You won't even see me in the top three.

Nice try though.

[ball_takes23]

Wade 2010 RS: 27/5/7 on 56% TS, 28 PER, 9.2 BPM
Lebron 2010 RS: 30/7/9 on 60% TS, 31.1 PER, 11.8 BPM
Kobe 2010 RS: 27/5/5 on 57% TS, 21.9 PER, 7.0 BPM

Wade vs Celtics first round 2010: 33/6/7 on 65% TS
Lebron vs Celtics second round 2010: 27/9/7 on 56% TS
Kobe vs Celtics finals 2010: 29/8/4 on 53% TS

Both Lebron and Wade were clearly better at playing basketball in the year 2010 than Kobe was. Any argument you want to use to say 2010 Kobe > 2010 Wade, which would have to involve bringing in his accolades (b2b rings + finals MVPs), you could also use to say 2010 Kobe > 2010 Lebron. But somehow Lebron fans always manage to mental gymnastics their way into

2010 Lebron > 2010 Kobe > 2010 Wade

The brain can work in funny ways sometimes.

[AlexanderRight]

I don't always see eye to eye with you, but you hit the nail on the head. It really isn't worth responding. There's a decently sized subset of LeBron haters on here that have such a pathological hatred towards LeBron that they completely abandon truth and rational thinking. They'll resort to completely lying about him while hoping nobody will notice. They'll make claims without even bothering to fact check them. Obvious double standards run rampant. The arguments put forth are often very intellectually dishonest and devoid of any context.

My recent favorite is the poster who just used LeBron's bronze medal against him - when he was a 20 year old that only played 3 MINUTES in the game they lost against Argentina, lmao. That was a couple pages ago. That's peak intellectual dishonesty and a great example of the lengths they will go to try and discredit LeBron.

These people dominate the discussion. Just look at this thread and you'll find a lot of them. It's really, really sad that people can despise an NBA player so much that it makes them abandon rational thinking. It's not healthy to harbor strong negative feelings towards a person that has zero impact on your life. I hope they can find peace within themselves.

You should look up "ad hominem fallacy". You'll learn a lot from it.

Once again, you've resorted to critiquing the poster instead of the actual argument made. Who would've saw that coming...

And I love how you say "these people dominate the discussion" when you and "IWasAwitness" flood the pages of every GOAT thread. I wouldn't be surpised if you're the same poster

Do us a favor and get the poster count from both goat threads and tell us who had the most posts. You won't even see me in the top three.

Nice try though.

Do me a favor? Address the actual argument that I made in response to your nonsense. Or are you just gonna drown yourself in ad hominems and strawmans like Scranton does?

[ScrantonBulls]

I don't always see eye to eye with you, but you hit the nail on the head. It really isn't worth responding. There's a decently sized subset of LeBron haters on here that have such a pathological hatred towards LeBron that they completely abandon truth and rational thinking. They'll resort to completely lying about him while hoping nobody will notice. They'll make claims without even bothering to fact check them. Obvious double standards run rampant. The arguments put forth are often very intellectually dishonest and devoid of any context.

My recent favorite is the poster who just used LeBron's bronze medal against him - when he was a 20 year old that only played 3 MINUTES in the game they lost against Argentina, lmao. That was a couple pages ago. That's peak intellectual dishonesty and a great example of the lengths they will go to try and discredit LeBron.

These people dominate the discussion. Just look at this thread and you'll find a lot of them. It's really, really sad that people can despise an NBA player so much that it makes them abandon rational thinking. It's not healthy to harbor strong negative feelings towards a person that has zero impact on your life. I hope they can find peace within themselves.

You should look up "ad hominem fallacy". You'll learn a lot from it.

Once again, you've resorted to critiquing the poster instead of the actual argument made. Who would've saw that coming...

And I love how you say "these people dominate the discussion" when you and "IWasAwitness" flood the pages of every GOAT thread. I wouldn't be surpised if you're the same poster

You missed the whole point. There is no point in giving legitimate responses when you so frequently resort to lying, don't look up the stats/facts, and present intellectually dishonest arguments full of double standards. I've given legitimate responses and they get met with the same old dishonest rebuttals.

[AlexanderRight]

I don't always see eye to eye with you, but you hit the nail on the head. It really isn't worth responding. There's a decently sized subset of LeBron haters on here that have such a pathological hatred towards LeBron that they completely abandon truth and rational thinking. They'll resort to completely lying about him while hoping nobody will notice. They'll make claims without even bothering to fact check them. Obvious double standards run rampant. The arguments put forth are often very intellectually dishonest and devoid of any context.

My recent favorite is the poster who just used LeBron's bronze medal against him - when he was a 20 year old that only played 3 MINUTES in the game they lost against Argentina, lmao. That was a couple pages ago. That's peak intellectual dishonesty and a great example of the lengths they will go to try and discredit LeBron.

These people dominate the discussion. Just look at this thread and you'll find a lot of them. It's really, really sad that people can despise an NBA player so much that it makes them abandon rational thinking. It's not healthy to harbor strong negative feelings towards a person that has zero impact on your life. I hope they can find peace within themselves.

You should look up "ad hominem fallacy". You'll learn a lot from it.

Once again, you've resorted to critiquing the poster instead of the actual argument made. Who would've saw that coming...

And I love how you say "these people dominate the discussion" when you and "IWasAwitness" flood the pages of every GOAT thread. I wouldn't be surpised if you're the same poster

You missed the whole point. There is no point in giving legitimate responses when you so frequently resort to lying, don't look up the stats/facts, and present intellectually dishonest arguments full of double standards. I've given legitimate responses and they get met with the same old dishonest rebuttals.

More ad hominems. Can you seriously not do anything else?

Find one post where I've lied. Find a double standard. Just make an actual argument for **** sake. Half your posts is just you pretending that you're smarter than everyone else.

I've seen you consistently get bodied on this topic by other posters and myself included just for you to run away and claim everyone else is bias, only to show up later with the same shallow arguments that get dismantled. Then you run away again, rinse and repeat.