RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[ScrantonBulls]

You should look up "ad hominem fallacy". You'll learn a lot from it.

Once again, you've resorted to critiquing the poster instead of the actual argument made. Who would've saw that coming...

And I love how you say "these people dominate the discussion" when you and "IWasAwitness" flood the pages of every GOAT thread. I wouldn't be surpised if you're the same poster

You missed the whole point. There is no point in giving legitimate responses when you so frequently resort to lying, don't look up the stats/facts, and present intellectually dishonest arguments full of double standards. I've given legitimate responses and they get met with the same old dishonest rebuttals.

More ad hominems. Can you seriously not do anything else?

Find one post where I've lied. Find a double standard. Just make an actual argument for **** sake. Half your posts is just you pretending that you're smarter than everyone else.

I've seen you consistently get bodied on this topic by other posters and myself included just for you to run away and claim everyone else is bias, only to show up later with the same shallow arguments that get dismantled. Then you run away again, rinse and repeat.

You mean aside from you just claiming that AD was All-NBA 1st team the year before he got traded to the Lakers? Which you followed up with "ACKCHYUALLY that didn't mean the season before he joined, it meant 2 seasons before he joined because you get the award in the summer after the season"

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2432659&p=118524184&hilit=Alexander#p118524184

There ya go though. Perfect example of intellectual dishonesty by you in this debate. That post of yours is full of it.

[lessthanjake]

And I'm sorry, in what world was Wade the second best player in the world in 2010? He wasn't even the best player at his own position. But I'll give you this: he at least had a better argument than AD, and even then, it's still a very, very weak one.

Others could have the position that any all time player that was drafted with LBJ, was arguably just as good as LBJ and enjoyed more team success than LBJ could be his rival, like Wade. Or that any MVP caliber player that was also the #1 pick and also a forward could be his rival, like AD. Which would both be reasonable positions.

Even if it were conceded that Wade and AD weren't LBJ's "rivals" a legitimate argument can be made that both times the two best players in the world were purposely playing together.

No, it can't. Neither Wade or AD have any argument for being the second best player in the world at the time they became teammates with LeBron. You have to be completely braindead to think this.

You’d have to be “completely braindead” to think Wade was the 2nd best player in the world at the time that they became teammates? Really? The data very decidedly disagrees with you.

- Wade was 2nd in BPM in 2010, behind only LeBron.

- Wade was 2nd in LEBRON in 2010, behind only LeBron.

- Wade was 2nd in RAPTOR in 2010, behind only LeBron.

- Wade was 2nd in DPM in 2010, behind only LeBron.

- As per NBArapm, Wade’s two-year RAPM in the two years before joining with LeBron was 2nd in the league, behind only LeBron.

- Wade was 3rd in EPM in 2010 (behind LeBron and Durant), and was 2nd in playoff EPM that year (behind LeBron and miles above Durant).

There is actually an overwhelming data-based case that Wade was the 2nd best player in the NBA in 2010. The fact that despite all this you somehow have convinced yourself that someone would need to be “completely braindead” to think Wade was the league’s 2nd best player is very telling regarding your crippling bias in these kinds of conversations.

[lessthanjake]

You missed the whole point. There is no point in giving legitimate responses when you so frequently resort to lying, don't look up the stats/facts, and present intellectually dishonest arguments full of double standards. I've given legitimate responses and they get met with the same old dishonest rebuttals.

More ad hominems. Can you seriously not do anything else?

Find one post where I've lied. Find a double standard. Just make an actual argument for **** sake. Half your posts is just you pretending that you're smarter than everyone else.

I've seen you consistently get bodied on this topic by other posters and myself included just for you to run away and claim everyone else is bias, only to show up later with the same shallow arguments that get dismantled. Then you run away again, rinse and repeat.

You mean aside from you just claiming that AD was All-NBA 1st team the year before he got traded to the Lakers? Which you followed up with "ACKCHYUALLY that didn't mean the season before he joined, it meant 2 seasons before he joined because you get the award in the summer after the season"

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2432659&p=118524184&hilit=Alexander#p118524184

There ya go though. Perfect example of intellectual dishonesty by you in this debate. That post of yours is full of it.

I get your point where you think you’ve caught out AlexanderRight for talking about all-NBA two seasons prior instead of one season prior. But did you ever take a step back and ask yourself why AD wasn’t all-NBA (not even 2nd team or 3rd team) the year before he joined LeBron? Was it actually because he wasn’t all that good that year? No. It was because he only played 56 games.

In reality, in 2019, AD was 3rd in BPM, 3rd in LEBRON, 4th in WS/48, 6th in RAPTOR, and 7th in EPM (and, for the latter, I’ll note he was only a miniscule amount below all but the top 3). So the data generally supports the idea that he was an all-NBA first-team level player in 2019, but simply didn’t play enough games to get any all-NBA recognition. He was all-NBA first team the two prior years before that (not to mention all-NBA first-team in 2020 itself). AD was very clearly a solidly perennial all-NBA first-team player at the time, who simply missed too many games to get it in 2019.

Does this information strongly support the notion that AD was the 2nd best player in the NBA? Not exactly, since he’s not 2nd in the above-mentioned metrics, and five players make all-NBA first team. But there’s at least an argument for #2 in the NBA for someone who consistently makes all-NBA first-team when they don’t miss a lot of games, and there’s an argument that the various metrics we have might underrate a great defender like AD (which means that being between 3rd and 7th in various pieces of data doesn’t necessarily mean the player can’t be #2). So it’s not a crazy take, though I think I’d at least pick Steph above AD at that point (with the caveat that he barely played the year AD joined the Lakers).

[Kawaii Leonard]

When did LeBron team up with his biggest rivals?

He teamed up with other elite players 3 times, twice with players widely considered top 5 in the NBA. How extreme they were as rivals is a point for subtle definition, and/or sophistry from LeBron fans, but imo KD regarded LeBron as his greatest rival, not Curry or GSW, which is probably testament to LeBron but KD to GSW was also a consequence of LeBron’s own actions and choices; there is again imo no way KD joins GSW without LeBron previously forming both the Heatles, and the Cavs team his second time around at the Cavs, and he and the Heatles being acclaimed for beating KD and his fledgling OKC team in 2012. No one has ever explained to me why there should have been any restrictions on what other elite players chose to do as FAs after 2010. As KD actually said, maintaining parity in the NBA was never in his job description/contract.

I myself have no problem with any choice LeBron made as a Free Agent, but found the AD signing to the Lakers a little smelly given he was mid contract rather than a FA and was a Klutch client, but he only has one career himself and the Pelicans were not exactly a well run franchise where he had good ongoing prospects so I can sympathise with him not wanting to waste further years of his prime there even if it involved reneging on a contract.

At no point in this long drawn out drivel did you ever answer my question, so I'll ask it again:

When did LeBron team up with his rivals?

Just ignore him atp. He has a track history of posting long rants about nothing but him hating on Lebron to prop up Curry or the Warriors. I can no longer tell if he’s an actual fan or just another Curry stan on here. The deflecting and the tangents he goes on sometimes is actually impressive and very creative though

[Iwasawitness]

I didn't say biggest rival. I said a rival, which you just conceded. So moving along...

I never said you said that.

That was what VanWest said.

AD was named 1st Team All NBA in summer 2018 and the summer of 2020. 1 year before and after he teamed up with LBJ in the summer of 2019. You see how that works right? 1 year before and after he teamed up with LBJ, he was named an All NBA 1st team. Try to focus here...

Cool, that's not what you said.

You said, and I quote:

AD was 1st All NBA the year before and after he teamed with Lebron while sharing the same forward position.

The year before he teamed with LeBron was 2019. Try to focus here. I know that's hard for you but I have faith.

3rd straight time you get get lost in meaningless semantics. LBJ purposely manufactured being on the same team as Wade.

It's not a matter of semantics. You said LeBron manufactured all of this. I just explained why he didn't. You saying it over and over again doesn't make it true, especially when all facts and how history played out says otherwise.

Whether it was the Cavs or the Heat is irrelevant. Any team LBJ is on is by definition his team in a literal sense.

And this right here is why I don't take you seriously.

If LeBron manufactured all of this, that means HE put it all together. It was all part of his plan. He "colluded" to make it all come to fruition.

That isn't what happened.

LeBron isn't the one who put all of this together. He isn't the one who planned for it. It wasn't even the original plan in the first place. It was something he decided to do within one week of actually announcing he'd join Miami when he realized he had no other choice.

Wade on the other hand had every intention of staying in Miami. He himself said he never planned on ever leaving. If anything, Wade manufactured this, not LeBron.

What you're arguing is a logical fallacy. It doesn't matter whose team it is at that point. That doesn't suddenly mean he orchestrated all of it, which he didn't.

In other words, don't use words you don't understand the meaning behind.

That's what I mean when I say "his team". I'm speaking in a literal sense.

This is one of the worst backtrack attempts I've ever seen.

Now in a leadership sense that's a different story. It was definitely Wade's team in a leadership sense but that's not what I was referring to. Regardless, LBJ knowingly and purposely chose to share the same jersey as Wade/Bosh after Wade/Bosh were committed to Miami. Your little sob story about how "conflicted" LBJ was before he made his decision is completely irrelevant to the actual decision that he made.

What does LeBron willingly choosing to go to Miami have to do with the fact that YOU said he manufactured it? Yes, LeBron chose to go to Miami, we're all well aware of this. The problem is that you are implying that he coordinated all of this. He didn't. If you would've just said he willingly chose to join a team where he knew he'd have multiple all stars, then you'd have a fair (albeit repetitive) point. You choosing to say "he manufactured getting the second best player on his team" turned it into a logical fallacy.

And I'm sorry, in what world was Wade the second best player in the world in 2010?

The same world where Wade was All NBA 1st Team two straight years, Top 5 in MVP voting two straight years, and averaged better PPG, APG, BPG, SPG and better FG% than Kobe OVER the last two regular seasons, while averaging 33/5/7 on 50%+ shooting and 40%+ shooting from 3 in the playoffs before Lebron called him up. I said it was arguable, and yes with those numbers, it is arguable that Wade was the 2nd best player in the world in 2010.[/quote]

Dwight Howard was first team all NBA for three straight years, had been a two team DPOY at that point, and led his team to the finals in 2009. Even if Wade was a better player than Kobe (he wasn't), he has no argument over Howard at this point. Again, it's not arguable. No one in their right minds were arguing that Wade was the second best player in 2010 and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone now who thinks this way.

The better question is what world does a All NBA 1st Team player not at least have an argument for 2nd best player in the world?

So you think Scottie Pippen had an argument for second best player in the world in 1996?

I just gave you the numbers on Wade. AD was All NBA 1st team 3 times BEFORE teaming up with LBJ. He was probably the best defensive player in the league having made All-Defensive Team 3 times and was Block Leader 3 times BEFORE teaming with Lebron. And this was all BEFORE the bubble. I get everyone has their preference, but to pretend AD/Wade wasn't in the conversation with that kind of production while calling me braindead is pretty hilarious.

It's not a matter of preference. It's a matter of logic. Like I mentioned before, Wade at least was a top 5 player in 2010 so it's not like he was that far off. But as I mentioned before, you had to make an argument for AD to just be top 5 in 2019. Not a single person ever considered him to be a better player than Curry. Not a single person ever considered him to be better than Kevin Durant. Giannis was the MVP at this point and leading a 60 win team, while AD's didn't even have a winning record. No one is denying how great he was, you're fabricating a scenario that you want to be true but in reality it never was. You do things like this all the time, which is why I'm not surprised that you're doing it here.

And this, among other reasons, is why I'm not continuing with this thread. I called out someone for incorrectly stating LeBron joined his biggest rivals and now I'm being told that LeBron "manufactured" getting Wade on his team, that Anthony Davis had an argument for being the second best player in the world in 2019 ( ) and that Wade was better than Kobe in 2010. What else from the parade of stupidity that is this thread am I going to get? That the 2011 Heat are one of the most stacked teams of all time? That the 2014 Spurs were a bunch of geriatrics and a baby Kawhi?

No thanks, I'm good.

[AlexanderRight]

You missed the whole point. There is no point in giving legitimate responses when you so frequently resort to lying, don't look up the stats/facts, and present intellectually dishonest arguments full of double standards. I've given legitimate responses and they get met with the same old dishonest rebuttals.

More ad hominems. Can you seriously not do anything else?

Find one post where I've lied. Find a double standard. Just make an actual argument for **** sake. Half your posts is just you pretending that you're smarter than everyone else.

I've seen you consistently get bodied on this topic by other posters and myself included just for you to run away and claim everyone else is bias, only to show up later with the same shallow arguments that get dismantled. Then you run away again, rinse and repeat.

You mean aside from you just claiming that AD was All-NBA 1st team the year before he got traded to the Lakers? Which you followed up with "ACKCHYUALLY that didn't mean the season before he joined, it meant 2 seasons before he joined because you get the award in the summer after the season"

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2432659&p=118524184&hilit=Alexander#p118524184

There ya go though. Perfect example of intellectual dishonesty by you in this debate. That post of yours is full of it.

Do you not understand the concept of time? AD was named All NBA 1st Team summer of 2018. AD joined LBJ summer of 2019. That's 1 year BEFORE. It's not that complicated...

AD was 1st Team "1 calendar year BEFORE" joining Lebron. If he made 1st Team All NBA in 2019 I would have said he made it "THE YEAR" he joined Lebron. But he only played 56 games. So I said "THE YEAR BEFORE" he joined Lebron. 1 season of playing time before he joined LBJ.

I know you're desperate to win an argument for once but surely you can do better than this...

[ScrantonBulls]

More ad hominems. Can you seriously not do anything else?

Find one post where I've lied. Find a double standard. Just make an actual argument for **** sake. Half your posts is just you pretending that you're smarter than everyone else.

I've seen you consistently get bodied on this topic by other posters and myself included just for you to run away and claim everyone else is bias, only to show up later with the same shallow arguments that get dismantled. Then you run away again, rinse and repeat.

You mean aside from you just claiming that AD was All-NBA 1st team the year before he got traded to the Lakers? Which you followed up with "ACKCHYUALLY that didn't mean the season before he joined, it meant 2 seasons before he joined because you get the award in the summer after the season"

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2432659&p=118524184&hilit=Alexander#p118524184

There ya go though. Perfect example of intellectual dishonesty by you in this debate. That post of yours is full of it.

I get your point where you think you’ve caught out AlexanderRight for talking about all-NBA two seasons prior instead of one season prior. But did you ever take a step back and ask yourself why AD wasn’t all-NBA (not even 2nd team or 3rd team) the year before he joined LeBron? Was it actually because he wasn’t all that good that year? No. It was because he only played 56 games.

In reality, in 2019, AD was 3rd in BPM, 3rd in LEBRON, 4th in WS/48, 6th in RAPTOR, and 7th in EPM (and only a miniscule amount below all but the top 3). So the data generally supports the idea that he was an all-NBA first-team level player in 2019, but simply didn’t play enough games to get any all-NBA recognition. He was all-NBA first team the two prior years before that (not to mention all-NBA first-team in 2020 itself). AD was very clearly a solidly perennial all-NBA first-team player at the time, who simply missed too many games to get it in 2019.

Does this information strongly support the notion that AD was the 2nd best player in the NBA? Not exactly, since he’s not 2nd in the above-mentioned metrics, and five players make all-NBA first team. But there’s at least an argument for #2 in the NBA for someone who consistently makes all-NBA first-team when they don’t miss a lot of games, and there’s an argument that the various metrics we have might underrate a great defender like AD (which means that being between 3rd and 7th in various pieces of data doesn’t mean the player can’t be #2). So it’s not a crazy take, though I think Steph would be my pick at that point (with the caveat that he barely played the year AD joined the Lakers).

I get what you're saying Jake. My point is simply this - why does he need to resort to lying/failing to look up the facts? You've presented a good case there. Why not do it like you did? And when he got called out on it, he digs in even further instead of admitting he was wrong.

That goes back to the main point. Why debate with somebody that will lie or not check their facts, then refuse to admit to it?

[lessthanjake]

Dwight Howard was first team all NBA for three straight years, had been a two team DPOY at that point, and led his team to the finals in 2009. Even if Wade was a better player than Kobe (he wasn't), he has no argument over Howard at this point. Again, it's not arguable. No one in their right minds were arguing that Wade was the second best player in 2010 and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone now who thinks this way.

As I’ve pointed out, in 2010, Wade was 2nd in the NBA behind LeBron in: BPM, LEBRON, RAPTOR, DPM, and NBArapm 2-year RAPM (as well as 3rd in EPM, and 2nd in playoff EPM, well above the non-LeBron player that had finished above him in regular season EPM). The data case for Wade being the second-best player in the NBA is actually pretty overwhelming. And yet you claim that it isn’t even “arguable” that Wade was the 2nd best player in the league. Again, this is so telling regarding your crippling bias. You’re so far down the pro-LeBron bias road that you think a position that is supported by essentially all available data is something that is not even “arguable” and that you’d have to be “completely braindead” to think. Just completely wild stuff.

And since you also mention what other people thought in 2010 and what they think now, I should note that the PC Board (a very pro-LeBron place) has twice voted for Player of the Year for 2009-10. They first voted for it just after the 2010 playoffs, and also just recently did a new vote for it in 2025. On both occasions, Wade was voted #2 in Player of the Year voting for 2009-10 See here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2434057&p=116767150#p116767150. And here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=24300609#p24300609. So yeah, people definitely did think Wade was the 2nd best player in 2010 and they still think it now.

I’ve actually rarely ever seen someone so aggressively make an argument with so little leg to stand on.

[AlexanderRight]

3rd straight time you get get lost in meaningless semantics. LBJ purposely manufactured being on the same team as Wade.

If LeBron manufactured all of this, that means HE put it all together. It was all part of his plan. He "colluded" to make it all come to fruition.

That isn't what happened.

LeBron isn't the one who put all of this together. He isn't the one who planned for it. It wasn't even the original plan in the first place. It was something he decided to do within one week of actually announcing he'd join Miami when he realized he had no other choice.

I legitimately felt sorry for you after I read this.

Wade on the other hand had every intention of staying in Miami. He himself said he never planned on ever leaving. If anything, Wade manufactured this, not LeBron.

What you're arguing is a logical fallacy. It doesn't matter whose team it is at that point. That doesn't suddenly mean he orchestrated all of it, which he didn't.

In other words, don't use words you don't understand the meaning behind.

"Manufacture" - The act or process of producing something. To produce according to an organized plan.

By signing with the Heat after Wade/Bosh were committed to Miami, he knowingly produced the result of Wade and himself being on the same team. That is a fact.

What does LeBron willingly choosing to go to Miami have to do with the fact that YOU said he manufactured it? Yes, LeBron chose to go to Miami, we're all well aware of this. The problem is that you are implying that he coordinated all of this. He didn't. If you would've just said he willingly chose to join a team where he knew he'd have multiple all stars, then you'd have a fair (albeit repetitive) point. You choosing to say "he manufactured getting the second best player on his team" turned it into a logical fallacy.

Just because the word makes you feel icky and empty inside doesn't make it less true. He knowingly chose to join Wade/Bosh in Miami. This is indisputable and thus he purposely manufactured that result. Bosh/Wade were already committed to Miami before the "Decision" spectacle. It doesn't matter when he choose to do it or how long it took him or who else was involved. At the end of the day, the decision was his and he still chose to do it and that's all that manufacturing is. Purposely producing a result to your liking. He chose for Wade/him to be on the same team. He manufactured that result.

Dwight Howard was first team all NBA for three straight years, had been a two team DPOY at that point, and led his team to the finals in 2009. Even if Wade was a better player than Kobe (he wasn't), he has no argument over Howard at this point. Again, it's not arguable. No one in their right minds were arguing that Wade was the second best player in 2010 and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone now who thinks this way.

You know what's that's called? An argument for Dwight Howard and one can easily be made for D Wade during 09-10 as 2nd best player in the world. Honestly to say that Wade didn't have an argument for being better than even Dwight Howard just makes you look worse. Not surprisingly you refused to address the facts and numbers I and other posters have put forth regarding Wade during this time period.

The better question is what world does a All NBA 1st Team player not at least have an argument for 2nd best player in the world?

So you think Scottie Pippen had an argument for second best player in the world in 1996?

Are you taking Pippen over mid 90s Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, David Robinson, Orlando Shaq, and Hakeem? Most wouldn't. But guess what? If you wanted to make that argument you'd be perfectly within your rights to do so. But here's the kicker. MJ already 3-Peated and was arguably the GOAT before Pippen was even in that discussion, so using him to discredit MJ isn't really gonna go anywhere.

I just gave you the numbers on Wade. AD was All NBA 1st team 3 times BEFORE teaming up with LBJ. He was probably the best defensive player in the league having made All-Defensive Team 3 times and was Block Leader 3 times BEFORE teaming with Lebron. And this was all BEFORE the bubble. I get everyone has their preference, but to pretend AD/Wade wasn't in the conversation with that kind of production while calling me braindead is pretty hilarious.

It's not a matter of preference. It's a matter of logic. Like I mentioned before, Wade at least was a top 5 player in 2010 so it's not like he was that far off. But as I mentioned before, you had to make an argument for AD to just be top 5 in 2019. Not a single person ever considered him to be a better player than Curry. Not a single person ever considered him to be better than Kevin Durant. Giannis was the MVP at this point and leading a 60 win team, while AD's didn't even have a winning record.

I know it shatters your worldview but yes, a big that already has 3 1st-Team All NBAs, 3 All-Defensive Teams, 3 Block Titles to his name, that's averaging 27/11 on over 50%+ shooting for 3 years straight while arguably being the best defender in the world absolutely has an argument for being the 2nd best player in the league. In that 3-year stretch before he got traded he averaged more PPG and RPG than KD/Steph/Giannis/Kawhi/Joker/Embiid/Lebron and shot a better FG% than Steph/Embiid/Kawhi. To say AD didn't have an argument or that Wade didn't have one in 2010 is more out of your hurt feelings and desired narrative than anything these guys were actually doing on the court.

[bledredwine]

Damn, this is brutal.

Anyway, here's a fun treat I stumbled upon.
Jordan and Kobe never looked this goofy or careless.
Defense would be its own video of similar impact.

It makes sense that he's not the winner Kobe or especially Jordan was. He sometimes plays
like he doesn't give a rats ass if it's not to his personal gain- taking defensive possessions off, not trying
during careless plays, differing at the end of games etc.

Watch on YouTube

[Yank3525]

LeBron isn't the one who put all of this together. He isn't the one who planned for it. It wasn't even the original plan in the first place. It was something he decided to do within one week of actually announcing he'd join Miami when he realized he had no other choice.

Even if this is true, you realize this makes LeBron look bad?

[AlexanderRight]

I get what you're saying Jake. My point is simply this - why does he need to resort to lying/failing to look up the facts? You've presented a good case there. Why not do it like you did? And when he got called out on it, he digs in even further instead of admitting he was wrong.

That goes back to the main point. Why debate with somebody that will lie or not check their facts, then refuse to admit to it?

Because it's not lying. AD was named 1st Team All NBA in the summer of 2018. He joined Lebron in the summer of 2019. So that means AD was All NBA "THE YEAR BEFORE" he joined LeBron. That's why I said "THE YEAR BEFORE".

You're just pretending like I didn't mean calendar year so you can feel like you have something to stand on.

[bledredwine]

And in terms of finals moments? Pshhht, not close.

Watch on YouTube

Even more drastic would be to compare the players when they could have tied or made the game closer and did not.
Scottie has a quote that if the Bulls were within 7, he knew "we would win because we had Michael"

[ball_takes23]

The "AD didnt make first-team all NBA in 2019 because the Pelicans had to sit him because him/Lebron/Klutch were trying to undermine the team" is not the own that Lebron fans think it is. It's more like a self-own.

[michaelm]

I get what you're saying Jake. My point is simply this - why does he need to resort to lying/failing to look up the facts? You've presented a good case there. Why not do it like you did? And when he got called out on it, he digs in even further instead of admitting he was wrong.

That goes back to the main point. Why debate with somebody that will lie or not check their facts, then refuse to admit to it?

Because it's not lying. AD was named 1st Team All NBA in the summer of 2018. He joined Lebron in the summer of 2019. So that means AD was All NBA "THE YEAR BEFORE" he joined LeBron. That's why I said "THE YEAR BEFORE".

You're just pretending like I didn't mean calendar year so you can feel like you have something to stand on.

He really thinks other posters don’t realise his schtick, which is to post broad often unsupported opinions of his own as if they were facts, then quibble over a minor error or even the wording of a counter argument which make no difference to the thrust of the argument.

His opinion is fairly obviously immutable which doesn’t necessarily make it wrong of course, but he is essentially admitting he cherry picks statistics to support a position which he won’t move from as has always been obvious.

[ScrantonBulls]

He teamed up with other elite players 3 times, twice with players widely considered top 5 in the NBA. How extreme they were as rivals is a point for subtle definition, and/or sophistry from LeBron fans, but imo KD regarded LeBron as his greatest rival, not Curry or GSW, which is probably testament to LeBron but KD to GSW was also a consequence of LeBron’s own actions and choices; there is again imo no way KD joins GSW without LeBron previously forming both the Heatles, and the Cavs team his second time around at the Cavs, and he and the Heatles being acclaimed for beating KD and his fledgling OKC team in 2012. No one has ever explained to me why there should have been any restrictions on what other elite players chose to do as FAs after 2010. As KD actually said, maintaining parity in the NBA was never in his job description/contract.

I myself have no problem with any choice LeBron made as a Free Agent, but found the AD signing to the Lakers a little smelly given he was mid contract rather than a FA and was a Klutch client, but he only has one career himself and the Pelicans were not exactly a well run franchise where he had good ongoing prospects so I can sympathise with him not wanting to waste further years of his prime there even if it involved reneging on a contract.

At no point in this long drawn out drivel did you ever answer my question, so I'll ask it again:

When did LeBron team up with his rivals?

Just ignore him atp. He has a track history of posting long rants about nothing but him hating on Lebron to prop up Curry or the Warriors. I can no longer tell if he’s an actual fan or just another Curry stan on here. The deflecting and the tangents he goes on sometimes is actually impressive and very creative though

Yeah, good call. I've never used the ignore list, but I think he will be the first.

[michaelm]

At no point in this long drawn out drivel did you ever answer my question, so I'll ask it again:

When did LeBron team up with his rivals?

Just ignore him atp. He has a track history of posting long rants about nothing but him hating on Lebron to prop up Curry or the Warriors. I can no longer tell if he’s an actual fan or just another Curry stan on here. The deflecting and the tangents he goes on sometimes is actually impressive and very creative though

Yeah, good call. I've never used the ignore list, but I think he will be the first.

It would be a source of pride be on your ignore list, just as it is when posters such as you have nothing but argumentum ad hominem.

I haven’t put anyone on ignore ever anywhere, it is a sign of weakness imo.

[michaelm]

I myself have no problem with any choice LeBron made as a Free Agent, but found the AD signing to the Lakers a little smelly given he was mid contract rather than a FA and was a Klutch client, but he only has one career himself and the Pelicans were not exactly a well run franchise where he had good ongoing prospects so I can sympathise with him not wanting to waste further years of his prime there even if it involved reneging on a contract.

Some points of clarification here.

The main argument in my OP was how Lebron used his own agency as a tool of manipulation over and over to his advantage (and occasional disadvantage because as it turns out LeGM is a tad overrated). The AD trade was an example of this (i.e. signing a top player and then demanding a trade to Lebron's team). Another example was the contract negotiations with Tristan Thompson and Iman Shumpert (both Klutch clients) and the Cavs being clouded by the threat of what Lebron might do had they broken down and Cavs had gone in another direction. It could be argued that teams have to worry about this stuff anyway, including situations where agents represent multiple star players on the same team, but we've never really seen a case where the agency is the star player who's also the best player in the league. It's an added layer of influence that has manifested itself in increased power and control over team building decisions like we haven't seen before.

Also, while I generally am for the players in pursuing their free agency ambitions, I do have a problem with the best guys colluding to team up and create super teams as Lebron, Wade, and Bosh did in Miami and KD, Curry, and Draymond did in GS. It fundamentally destroys the competitive balance of the league. As NBA fans, we lost a whole decade to this nonsense. There will be times when it happens naturally like with the Bulls in the 90s or Celtics/Lakers in the 80s, but at least you had separation of church and state in those situations, making it less smelly as you put it. It goes to the notion of fair play in any game. It's a concept that even small children understand as every kid has been involved in a game where the best players decided to team up ruin the experience for the rest of the kids. Lebron and KD undermined that multiple times. As far as I'm concerned, these guys are cheaters and should be branded as such.

You don t have to agree with everything I say and vice versa. I think your position is a rational one and an opinion to which you are in my own opinion very much entitled as a general fan of the NBA

I was a big fan of KD before, during and after he was with GSW. He does need a playmaker but otherwise in his prime was a great player. A major point for me is that if LeBron can and has done whatever he chooses as a FA then so can KD. I do come from a different sporting culture where a close result is not the only good result though, and also one where it is considered very acceptable for sportspeople to go wherever they choose for whatever reason they choose once they have served out a contract.

[michaelm]

He teamed up with other elite players 3 times, twice with players widely considered top 5 in the NBA. How extreme they were as rivals is a point for subtle definition, and/or sophistry from LeBron fans, but imo KD regarded LeBron as his greatest rival, not Curry or GSW, which is probably testament to LeBron but KD to GSW was also a consequence of LeBron’s own actions and choices; there is again imo no way KD joins GSW without LeBron previously forming both the Heatles, and the Cavs team his second time around at the Cavs, and he and the Heatles being acclaimed for beating KD and his fledgling OKC team in 2012. No one has ever explained to me why there should have been any restrictions on what other elite players chose to do as FAs after 2010. As KD actually said, maintaining parity in the NBA was never in his job description/contract.

I myself have no problem with any choice LeBron made as a Free Agent, but found the AD signing to the Lakers a little smelly given he was mid contract rather than a FA and was a Klutch client, but he only has one career himself and the Pelicans were not exactly a well run franchise where he had good ongoing prospects so I can sympathise with him not wanting to waste further years of his prime there even if it involved reneging on a contract.

At no point in this long drawn out drivel did you ever answer my question, so I'll ask it again:

When did LeBron team up with his rivals?

Just ignore him atp. He has a track history of posting long rants about nothing but him hating on Lebron to prop up Curry or the Warriors. I can no longer tell if he’s an actual fan or just another Curry stan on here. The deflecting and the tangents he goes on sometimes is actually impressive and very creative though

Alas, I am found out. Scorned by 3 posters such as you, I Was a Witness and Scranton Bulls who exemplify lack of bias ?. However will I cope

[The4thHorseman]

Lebron stacked the deck by teaming up with his biggest rivals, started his own agency which forced his team to trade/re-sign guys he wanted to play with, signed his biggest rivals and convinced them to demand trades to his team and no other, used his agency to manipulate the rest of the league, and then blamed his FOs for roster shortcommings that he had a hand in making. At some point, what you do on the court is not the only factor, and what Lebron did to repeatedly stack the deck off the court should be considered a significant negative in regard to his case as best ever.

When did LeBron team up with his biggest rivals?

He teamed up with other elite players 3 times, twice with players widely considered top 5 in the NBA. How extreme they were as rivals is a point for subtle definition, and/or sophistry from LeBron fans, but imo KD regarded LeBron as his greatest rival, not Curry or GSW, which is probably testament to LeBron but KD to GSW was also a consequence of LeBron’s own actions and choices; there is again imo no way KD joins GSW without LeBron previously forming both the Heatles, and the Cavs team his second time around at the Cavs, and he and the Heatles being acclaimed for beating KD and his fledgling OKC team in 2012. No one has ever explained to me why there should have been any restrictions on what other elite players chose to do as FAs after 2010. As KD actually said, maintaining parity in the NBA was never in his job description/contract.

I myself have no problem with any choice LeBron made as a Free Agent, but found the AD signing to the Lakers a little smelly given he was mid contract rather than a FA and was a Klutch client, but he only has one career himself and the Pelicans were not exactly a well run franchise where he had good ongoing prospects so I can sympathise with him not wanting to waste further years of his prime there even if it involved reneging on a contract.

Outside of Wade, who are the 2 other superstars he teamed up with / went to go to play with?