Shams: Lonzo for Okoro

[Ice Man]

To Doug's point, the Bulls' 23-12 record with Lonzo in the first half of the 2021-22 season ended up being very damaging for the franchise, because it convinced the FO that the team was a legit contender, once Lonzo returned. Thus, waiting and waiting and waiting rather than making the more realistic decison of swapping the older assets for prospects/picks.

Adding to the problem was that even with Lonzo on the court, the Bulls were 2-7 in that season against Top 8 teams, with one of those wins coming against a Dallas squad that was missing Luka. Which casts serious doubt that the narrative was ever correct, regardless of Lonzo's health.

[Jcool0]

To Doug's point, the Bulls' 23-12 record with Lonzo in the first half of the 2021-22 season ended up being very damaging for the franchise, because it convinced the FO that the team was a legit contender, once Lonzo returned. Thus, waiting and waiting and waiting rather than making the more realistic decison of swapping the older assets for prospects/picks.

Adding to the problem was that even with Lonzo on the court, the Bulls were 2-7 in that season against Top 8 teams, with one of those wins coming against a Dallas squad that was missing Luka. Which casts serious doubt that the narrative was ever correct, regardless of Lonzo's health.

Lonzo was a good player pre injury and has always been a positive on the court. As a #2 pick I would say he has had a slightly disappointing career (even if you take out the injury issues) & probably a 4th starter on a contending team. This wasn't a Derick Rose situation. There was no reason for AK to wait on anything once it became clear this injury wasn't healing.

[coldfish]

You're right...statistically he was better last year. Yikes! If AK basically just traded for another PW then what is he doing?

My guess is that he thinks Okoro has potential and will play better with a change of scenery...?

Shame on gotlieb for making such an amateur comparison.

Last 3 yrs-
Okoro vs pwill
Net rtg: +9 vs -10
TS%: 60 vs 55
Ws/48: .114 vs .048
Ftr: .26 vs .16

Wasn't the biggest fan of okoro during the draft and not the biggest fan RN but he's still much better player than pwill and it's insulting to compare him to pwill. At 11/yr he's a really good gamble. That's low end roleplayer money. He'll easily provide that. The bonus comes if his shot comes around and the change of scenery mature him into a vet. He's already providing impact with poor offense. If it comes around a little bit he'll be a value contact

Also love lonzo but he's done as a reliable piece and was getting redundant with the guards we have.

I think okoro starts with giddey/coby and then tre Jones/ayo off the bench

How much are those stats related to Okoro being on the better team?

I'm not saying he's as good as PW, I don't think he is, but wanted to ask the question.

I'm not crazy about the trade because it's a minor improvement for a team that needs to think bigger, but overall it's fine. It didn't cost much and he's not an expensive player. However, if the Memphis deal was really there last year for Lonzo then that's what AK should've done.

The net rating is pretty damning. Okuro made a good team much better. Pat made a mediocre team bad. Just from last year:

Patrick:
On: -4.9 net points per 100 possessions team performance
Off: +1.1

Okuro
On: +14.1
Off: +8.3

[dougthonus]

To Doug's point, the Bulls' 23-12 record with Lonzo in the first half of the 2021-22 season ended up being very damaging for the franchise, because it convinced the FO that the team was a legit contender, once Lonzo returned. Thus, waiting and waiting and waiting rather than making the more realistic decison of swapping the older assets for prospects/picks.

Adding to the problem was that even with Lonzo on the court, the Bulls were 2-7 in that season against Top 8 teams, with one of those wins coming against a Dallas squad that was missing Luka. Which casts serious doubt that the narrative was ever correct, regardless of Lonzo's health.

I think people over look in hindsight that in that year we were playing in empty gyms and half the league was in COVID protocols on any given night. It was the weirdest most outlier year ever. AT the point we were #1 seed in the East, our net rating was ~2 which traditionally projects to a 45 win team, and we had like 5 games that were miracle finishes in our favor.

People play up the #1 seed, but our level of play was no where near contender just because we briefly held on to this seed for a week.

[Ice Man]

Lonzo was a good player pre injury and has always been a positive on the court. As a #2 pick I would say he has had a slightly disappointing career (even if you take out the injury issues) & probably a 4th starter on a contending team. This wasn't a Derick Rose situation. There was no reason for AK to wait on anything once it became clear this injury wasn't healing.

Agree with all of the above.

The irony is, Lonzo, AC, and DDR were all excellent signings -- great value for the money. If AK had started with a 50-win team that had a true #1 option (say, the current Bucks or Nuggets) and then added these pieces to round off the squad, those would have been great moves. Superstar GMdom. But there was a lot less value in signing those guys to take a crummy team to 45, maybe 50 wins, with no clear path toward becoming better.

[League Circles]

Okoro is a guy I liked when I looked into him. He's the archetype of player I wanted us to get this summer along with a rim defending C, but he's not as good as I wanted obviously. I say it's an OK return for Ball, who is a fantastic defender and very good passer, but obviously there are still physical availability concerns and IMO he's far from proven as a shooter, and provides virtually no slashing attacks to the rim, on ball or off. He's a really nice player but I'm OK with Okoro.

[MGB8]

Someone posted this highlight vid of Okoro from last season. Focuses on offense, not D, though:

https://youtu.be/l8e5ODVlEn4

To me, anyway, this highlight vid screams JAG - at least on offense. I actually think someone with a lot of film could put together a more exciting vid for Dalen Terry…

[coldfish]

To Doug's point, the Bulls' 23-12 record with Lonzo in the first half of the 2021-22 season ended up being very damaging for the franchise, because it convinced the FO that the team was a legit contender, once Lonzo returned. Thus, waiting and waiting and waiting rather than making the more realistic decison of swapping the older assets for prospects/picks.

Adding to the problem was that even with Lonzo on the court, the Bulls were 2-7 in that season against Top 8 teams, with one of those wins coming against a Dallas squad that was missing Luka. Which casts serious doubt that the narrative was ever correct, regardless of Lonzo's health.

I think people over look in hindsight that in that year we were playing in empty gyms and half the league was in COVID protocols on any given night. It was the weirdest most outlier year ever. AT the point we were #1 seed in the East, our net rating was ~2 which traditionally projects to a 45 win team, and we had like 5 games that were miracle finishes in our favor.

People play up the #1 seed, but our level of play was no where near contender just because we briefly held on to this seed for a week.

One thing largely forgotten was that the league was trying to cut back on fouls and letting the teams play. That really helped Chicago as they were trying to strip guys and get out and run. You can look at the league wide fouls, Chicago's steals, etc. and see it.

By the second half of the year, the refs were back to calling touch fouls and it slowed Chicago down.

That Bulls team benefited from a temporary rules change.

[coldfish]

Someone posted this highlight vid of Okoro from last season. Focuses on offense, not D, though:

https://youtu.be/l8e5ODVlEn4

To me, anyway, this highlight vid screams JAG - at least on offense. I actually think someone with a lot of film could put together a more exciting vid for Dalen Terry…

Okuro is almost a prototypical JAG. The Bulls could have got a guy like him for the MLE.

[MrSparkle]

One bet that should come around is “AK dumps appearing in finals.”

Between Gafford, Kornet, Caruso, DJJ, and Otto, there’s a pretty good list going. Picking up cheap former AK pieces is like a good-luck charm.

Cavs finals!

[Tetlak]

Someone posted this highlight vid of Okoro from last season. Focuses on offense, not D, though:

https://youtu.be/l8e5ODVlEn4

To me, anyway, this highlight vid screams JAG - at least on offense. I actually think someone with a lot of film could put together a more exciting vid for Dalen Terry…

If he had a bag, he wouldn't be on our team. He's just a spot up guy who looks for opportunistic cuts and that's fine when combined with his defense.

Half the board falsely believes Vuc's 14 shot attempts is taking away shots from Matas. I don't think any of those people would want to watch Okoro try to do anything with the ball.

[coldfish]

Someone posted this highlight vid of Okoro from last season. Focuses on offense, not D, though:

https://youtu.be/l8e5ODVlEn4

To me, anyway, this highlight vid screams JAG - at least on offense. I actually think someone with a lot of film could put together a more exciting vid for Dalen Terry…

If he had a bag, he wouldn't be on our team. He's just a spot up guy who looks for opportunistic cuts and that's fine when combined with his defense.

Half the board falsely believes Vuc's 14 shot attempts is taking away shots from Matas. I don't think any of those people would want to watch Okoro try to do anything with the ball.

Teams have the shot volume for 2 to 3 self creators. Everyone else is an off ball guy. For the Bulls this year, its going to be Coby, Giddey and maybe Matas. That big three isn't going to strike fear in anyone's heart but at least its young.

[Flopper]

This guy sucks. 37% from 3, but it's propped up by his left corner volume and %; he's garbage from the right corner and above the break. 11 dunks in 55 games last year, low assists, steals and blocks.... he's literally Keith Bogans.

[Tetlak]

Someone posted this highlight vid of Okoro from last season. Focuses on offense, not D, though:

https://youtu.be/l8e5ODVlEn4

To me, anyway, this highlight vid screams JAG - at least on offense. I actually think someone with a lot of film could put together a more exciting vid for Dalen Terry…

If he had a bag, he wouldn't be on our team. He's just a spot up guy who looks for opportunistic cuts and that's fine when combined with his defense.

Half the board falsely believes Vuc's 14 shot attempts is taking away shots from Matas. I don't think any of those people would want to watch Okoro try to do anything with the ball.

Teams have the shot volume for 2 to 3 self creators. Everyone else is an off ball guy. For the Bulls this year, its going to be Coby, Giddey and maybe Matas. That big three isn't going to strike fear in anyone's heart but at least its young.

Our team averages over 100 possessions per game. Our pace is much higher than the standard team. There are plenty of shots to go around. Giddey is also not a high volume guy. He's a floor general. I reckon the more options he plays with, the less he'll shoot.

Id argue the guys who were stealing shots were actually the THT and Jalen Smith's of the world when they actually played; although we need to see what we have with Jalen. Still, he's definitely aggressive.

[TheJordanRule]

Someone posted this highlight vid of Okoro from last season. Focuses on offense, not D, though:

https://youtu.be/l8e5ODVlEn4

To me, anyway, this highlight vid screams JAG - at least on offense. I actually think someone with a lot of film could put together a more exciting vid for Dalen Terry…

Okuro is almost a prototypical JAG. The Bulls could have got a guy like him for the MLE.

MGB8 and CF, I gotta tell you that you're being too harsh, brothers but which is unusual because you're both usually spot on. After watching those highlights, in which Okoro frequently found himself pushing the pace and finishing at the rim, I was inspired to find out whether Okoro had a strong finishing ability in reality... and the answer is a resounding YES! In shots at the rim (0-3 feet), his FG percentage this past season, he's converting at a 65.9 % rate. His career finishing percentage is just a little worse at 64.4 % at the rim. If he can be the dude in these highlights more often and push the pace, and get to the rim, he's gonna be an offensive force. I'm actually excited about this kid now, when I didn't expect to be. EDIT: He's a JAG on the perimeter, unfortunately. That much cannot be denied. It's not his game.

[pipfan]

I think he'll benefit from our fast pace. He is an open court player. We could REALLY use the defense.
I'm now positive on this trade, and might start him

[Infinity2152]

As bad as people are talking about him, think it's about 70/30 he starts the season at SF. Looking at our roster, if Matas is starting at PF don't see a guy in front of Okoro at SF. MAYBE Williams. They better not start Giddey, White, Huerter.

[Hangtime84]

Spoiler:

If he had a bag, he wouldn't be on our team. He's just a spot up guy who looks for opportunistic cuts and that's fine when combined with his defense.

Half the board falsely believes Vuc's 14 shot attempts is taking away shots from Matas. I don't think any of those people would want to watch Okoro try to do anything with the ball.

Teams have the shot volume for 2 to 3 self creators. Everyone else is an off ball guy. For the Bulls this year, its going to be Coby, Giddey and maybe Matas. That big three isn't going to strike fear in anyone's heart but at least its young.

Our team averages over 100 possessions per game. Our pace is much higher than the standard team. There are plenty of shots to go around. Giddey is also not a high volume guy. He's a floor general. I reckon the more options he plays with, the less he'll shoot.

Id argue the guys who were stealing shots were actually the THT and Jalen Smith's of the world when they actually played; although we need to see what we have with Jalen. Still, he's definitely aggressive.

The problem with Josh is teams play him for the pass especially earlier in the year. He has to show he is willing to punish mismatches and shoot when left alone.

[GoBlue72391]

Someone posted this highlight vid of Okoro from last season. Focuses on offense, not D, though:

https://youtu.be/l8e5ODVlEn4

To me, anyway, this highlight vid screams JAG - at least on offense. I actually think someone with a lot of film could put together a more exciting vid for Dalen Terry…

Yeah. He's not bad, but I don't get the sense that he's a breakout candidate who just needed a change of scenery. Primarily a spot up guy with the occasional mechanical, awkward looking drive.

He's fine for what he is, a low usage 3&D role player, but I still rather would have had that 1st.

[TheJordanRule]

As bad as people are talking about him, think it's about 70/30 he starts the season at SF. Looking at our roster, if Matas is starting at PF don't see a guy in front of Okoro at SF. MAYBE Williams. They better not start Giddey, White, Huerter.

Oh hell no. Williams is a net negative. Let's bring him off the bench where he at least has a chance to bumslay if he's up for it, or at least not impact us so badly. I agree with you, Infinity. A line up of Giddey, White and Huerter would be disastrous defensively. Don't start us off with that. Okoro is one of the rare SFs who has the athleticism for defending PGs in a pittbull Scottie Pippen style. This front office may have turned the corner when it comes to understanding how to rebuild. I am growing increasingly optimistic about our moves... which is quite an unfamiliar feeling at this point.