Was Hakeem Olajuwon's post-up game a little overrated?

[lilroddyb]

Hakeem Raised his game during the playoffs

Here are the true shooting % for these centers during their playoffs careers

Jokic 61.2 ts%
Kareem 57.1 ts%
Hakeem ts% 56.9
Shaq 56.5 ts%

Jokic clearly best but the others almost the same

[tsherkin]

This. Low key disrespectful topic

It’s kinda like starting a thread saying is Curry’s shooting a little overrated

All of that is wrong.

No. Ewing and DROB had more efficient years that did not matter in the end.

Why would you mention Robinson? He faded away from physical contact. He only really did well in the post against size mismatches, he's an awful mention. Robinson was a pretty good face-up big who did an excellent job drawing fouls, but was far less successful in the playoffs as a volume scorer. His postseason floor was a lot worse than Hakeem's.

And Ewing was considerably worse in the playoffs. Had a nice RS efficiency peak from like 88-90, though two of them were lower volume than your average Olajuwon season, at least a little. Still, Ewing was very good in the RS, particularly once he developed his J and his travel face-up game.

[DCasey91]

This. Low key disrespectful topic

It’s kinda like starting a thread saying is Curry’s shooting a little overrated

All of that is wrong.

No. Ewing and DROB had more efficient years that did not matter in the end.

Why would you mention Robinson? He faded away from physical contact. He only really did well in the post against size mismatches, he's an awful mention. Robinson was a pretty good face-up big who did an excellent job drawing fouls, but was far less successful in the playoffs as a volume scorer. His postseason floor was a lot worse than Hakeem's.

And Ewing was considerably worse in the playoffs. Had a nice RS efficiency peak from like 88-90, though two of them were lower volume than your average Olajuwon season, at least a little. Still, Ewing was very good in the RS, particularly once he developed his J and his travel face-up game.

Volume counts and they were his peers. 57%ts in on playoff run us outstanding considering that huge amount of scoring. Outside of Shaq which did need a few years (he struck out in the late 90's after an average return in the playoffs considering his rs play). But different player

There is no one ike Hakeem as far as bigs go.

[tsherkin]

Volume counts

Attention to how the points were scored matters in a thread about a specific KIND of scoring.

[HotRocks34]

No. At his peak Hakeem's post game was basically unstoppable and his footwork was absolutely insane.

That's why he was training guys for years and years after his retirement.

[cupcakesnake]

Guess what else the selective stats say?

Dwight Howard is also better than Hakeem as a post player, the stats back it up and it isn't close. And a whole other number of bigs as well. I wonder why OP didn't include them. What's the agenda here?

So if he's not going to include every single big ever, he should post this at all? What's your point here?

[An Unbiased Fan]

People using raw FG% and not postup stats is funny.

[DCasey91]

Volume counts

Attention to how the points were scored matters in a thread about a specific KIND of scoring.

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUaSGFrZWVtIHRoaW5raW5nIGJhc2tldGJhbGzSBwkJ_ACjtWo3m0M%3D

Here 11mins in. They have adjusted scoring in the playoffs. And Hakeen of course comes out favourably to his contemparies in his prime/peak

Yes what specifics?

Hakeem has by far the most difficult shot making ability and more than high enough levels for a 1st option for a center back then and it's not even close to being close.

If anything if OP poster puts this up why doesnt he put Wilt, Duncan (older) Garnett. They have more flaws in totality in regard to being where they are rated offensively. What's this all for one business.

I'm super high on Hakeem because of where he was and what happened and what he delivered as the finished product.

Like what kind of world are we living in when we have to question Hakeen offensive ability the proof was in the pudding multiple times over. That type of inelastic scoring isn't common at all.

Jordan, Kobe stuff. Giannis has worse returns playing in a better era, SGA has a couple runs but see the majority here is guard play.

Hakeem would look even better today with how much space there is and better, bigger on ball guys and shooting today.

He got tough bucket s because time and time again when it matters no one hit water out of a boat you go to your guy. And he delivered of course.

That's basketball. If you want to call it double edged it isn't really when it worked. Why put up Mchale? He got in a platter with DJ nd Bird or DJ. **** that if Hakeem is with those two

[tsherkin]

Volume counts

Attention to how the points were scored matters in a thread about a specific KIND of scoring.

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUaSGFrZWVtIHRoaW5raW5nIGJhc2tldGJhbGzSBwkJ_ACjtWo3m0M%3D

Here 11mins in. They have adjusted scoring in the playoffs. And Hakeen of course comes out favourably to his contemparies in his prime/peak

Yes what specifics?

Hakeem has by far the most difficult shot making ability and more than high enough levels for a 1st option for a center back then and it's not even close to being close.

If anything if OP poster puts this up why doesnt he Wilt, Duncan (older) Garnett. They have more flaws in totality in regard to being where they are rated offensively.

Like what kind of world are we living in when we have to question Hakeen offensive ability the proof was in the pudding multiple times over. That type of inelastic scoring isn't common at all.

Jordan, Kobe stuff. Giannis has worse returns playing in a better era, SGA has a couple runs but see the majority here is guard play.

Hakeem would look even better today with how much space there is and better, bigger on ball guys and shooting today.

None of that is a response to what I said regarding your remark about Ewing and Robinson. They didn't use the post as often as did Olajuwon, and were both worse at it. So their individual RS efficiency doesn't really matter in the context of this discussion.

Meantime, the idea that we shouldn't question Hakeem's scoring... isn't sensible. At all, especially if the notion is to advance a comment about his scoring efficiency in the playoffs. Yeah, he made life harder for himself in the RS, so he got to shots the D couldn't do anything about. It did help him remain at his level in the PS... a level similar to or worse than the other scorers who have been discussed in this thread. Not sure why that would be relevant. Less effective RS scoring with comparable or worse PS scoring doesn't make Olajuwon better than than those guys. In context, we're talking about someone who is often hailed as the most effective post scorer, but he demonstrably isn't. That doesn't mean he wasn't quite good at it, but it does mean, as the thread title examines, that he's a little overrated in this regard.

[bledredwine]

Tyson Chandler and Deandre Jordan have some of the best FG%'s of all time.
Are they great scorers?


It all depends on shots taken. Hakeem was versatile, meaning he could take deep midrange shots and wild post shots.
Those are lower percentage shots.
But he hit enough of them that his shot creation was far more valuable.
His teams had less dry spells than most because of that, and scoring was more challenging at that time period.
The lane had more traffic.

[tsherkin]

Tyson Chandler and Deandre Jordan have some of the best FG%'s of all time.
Are they great scorers?


It all depends on shots taken. Hakeem was versatile, meaning he could take deep midrange shots and wild post shots.
Those are lower percentage shots.
But he hit enough of them that his shot creation was far more valuable.
His teams had less dry spells than most because of that, and scoring was more challenging at that time period.
The lane had more traffic.

This is all true. I think it escapes the point of the thread, but it's worth lingering on for a second, because it touches on some stuff others have said as well. This thread isn't about saying Hakeem was a BAD scorer. I think it's very, very clear that he was quite a good scorer. And his ability to perform in the playoffs as a scorer was quite solid as well, which has also been indicated.

Defending him to point out that he was a good scorer isn't the right path, though. Everyone KNOWS he was a great scorer. That's... kind of a given. But we're comparing a specific subset of the scoring skill here. So the broad conversations about his overall scoring ability somewhat miss the point, because he didn't JUST score in the post. Exactly as you noted, he had a variety of other tools which helped expand his relevance and his resilience against higher-order defenses.

But that's not really what we're talking about here. We're talking about specifically post scoring skills. And unlike someone like Shaq or Wilt, Hakeem could and did score in other ways. MORE like Ewing and Robinson, or rather something in the middle of those guys and the pure post scorers.

[DCasey91]

Attention to how the points were scored matters in a thread about a specific KIND of scoring.

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUaSGFrZWVtIHRoaW5raW5nIGJhc2tldGJhbGzSBwkJ_ACjtWo3m0M%3D

Here 11mins in. They have adjusted scoring in the playoffs. And Hakeen of course comes out favourably to his contemparies in his prime/peak

Yes what specifics?

Hakeem has by far the most difficult shot making ability and more than high enough levels for a 1st option for a center back then and it's not even close to being close.

If anything if OP poster puts this up why doesnt he Wilt, Duncan (older) Garnett. They have more flaws in totality in regard to being where they are rated offensively.

Like what kind of world are we living in when we have to question Hakeen offensive ability the proof was in the pudding multiple times over. That type of inelastic scoring isn't common at all.

Jordan, Kobe stuff. Giannis has worse returns playing in a better era, SGA has a couple runs but see the majority here is guard play.

Hakeem would look even better today with how much space there is and better, bigger on ball guys and shooting today.

None of that is a response to what I said regarding your remark about Ewing and Robinson. They didn't use the post as often as did Olajuwon, and were both worse at it. So their individual RS efficiency doesn't really matter in the context of this discussion.

Meantime, the idea that we shouldn't question Hakeem's scoring... isn't sensible. At all, especially if the notion is to advance a comment about his scoring efficiency in the playoffs. Yeah, he made life harder for himself in the RS, so he got to shots the D couldn't do anything about. It did help him remain at his level in the PS... a level similar to or worse than the other scorers who have been discussed in this thread. Not sure why that would be relevant. Less effective RS scoring with comparable or worse PS scoring doesn't make Olajuwon better than than those guys. In context, we're talking about someone who is often hailed as the most effective post scorer, but he demonstrably isn't. That doesn't mean he wasn't quite good at it, but it does mean, as the thread title examines, that he's a little overrated in this regard.

I disagree he's overrated might want to check his PS scoring 93-95 especially with the way he got it. Why do you think he rose where others dropped? Some considerably so

Why are dismissing RS play that use it for Hakeem? Contradiction much? By using your words Hakeems rs play does not matter in this discussion

I just said those are his peers. And both used the post just not to the extent of Hakeem obviously
I laid out verbatim why he'd be better today than yesteryear the exact same analogy with rim efficiency today vs then it's open season.

Mchale had Bird and DJ cmon now.

Who are the guys you're comparing Hakeem to then? Name them.

My guy your just saying words with justification. I laid out my reasoning clearly.

You don't find this type of difficult scoring unless your a guard and a more lower floor Giannis (ft woes, less range, less polish) and he only produced that because of Bud. Literally you can fact check this

Also his change vs from weak to strong defenses has one of the smallest changes in history because he took and made difficult shots... alot. You know Jordan, Kobe, Sga, limited Giannis (way lower floor) players I just mentioned .....

If anything the flipside of the coin quote unquote easy buckets has a better argument to be overrated for the simple fact of time and time again getting tough buckets when you need it holds supreme.

Once again overrated to what? There is no one even close to Hakeem as a big on his repertoire. You can say Jokic fair enough no argument but I'm talking about when he played in his career.

I posted the timestamp and he's clearly number one.

[morosis]

i would agree with many points already made:

hakeem had a high-difficulty shot diet all the time. this made his scoring output resilient in the playoffs when defense becomes making someone take difficult shots. its also why his fg% is lower than people who played more catch and shoot or had a simple, effective pet move. dream's pet shot was a spinning baseline fadeaway from 10-15 feet. compare that to a skyhook or shaq at the rim and theres your FG% gap.

it also matters what you mean by "post-up game". if we are talking efficiency then no he's not the best. if we are talking skills and polish, footwork, moves and counters for every defense that could be played, then yes he is the best. i dont know what kind of defense opposing teams could have even played to render him ineffective. a lot of the shots he took are the kind of "bad" shots you want the other team to take, its just he took them all the time and knew how to make them.

i think in the end it depends what a fan appreciates. if you think of basketball as a showcase of skill and athleticism, dream was basically a ballerina in the post and there's nobody better at that size, maybe ever. but he wasn't as efficient as other guys, and sometimes when you watched him it did seem like if he just did something simple or pass out a little faster/more decisively it would have served him well. so if you as a fan are more focused on the efficiency part then he's definitely not your guy. but again, he was drafted in the early-mid 80s. basketball wasn't as smart then as it is now.

it also helps dream's legacy that he was so unique. it gets tossed around that "we may never see another X or Y player" a lot. as the game develops, its moving away from what dream did. people are explicitly taught not to shoot the shots that dream shot. so if you watched dream, that was a kind of playstyle its safe to bet you're not going to see again. so yeah, i find my time watching him to be a privilege. i know there wont be another dream. im not a great rockets fan, but whatever kinda rockets fan i am, is because of dream and dream alone. his post game was so special that its still inspiring 30 years later.

[1993Playoffs]

He wasn’t nearly as efficient as other GOAT level bigs.


Shaq, Kareem , Jokic.

Hakeem’s defense is better than his offense imo.

[tsherkin]

I disagree he's overrated might want to check his PS scoring 93-95 especially with the way he got it. Why do you think he rose where others dropped? Some considerably so

Again, though, when we're discussing a guy who is routinely discussed as the "best" post player, and he demonstrably isn't, that's where the overrating comes from.

And when you talk about PS scoring, you're still not separating out how much he scored OUTSIDE of the post.

Mchale had Bird and DJ cmon now.

Who are the guys you're comparing Hakeem to then? Name them.

Read the thread...

My guy your just saying words with justification. I laid out my reasoning clearly.

Yeah, but your reasoning is bad. It's incomplete and meandering.

[Sane]

No, because you don’t measure a post up game by overall FG% or TS%.

No play-type player-tracking data prior to 2004-05. 2PT% and TS% are good general correlates for overall scoring efficiency. They're the best we can do, and they're worth a mention. They show that Hakeem had a lower 2PT% and TS% compared to the listed players. Why is that? Was he taking more difficult shots? Did he need to take tougher shots? Was he not as good at making shots?

He’s taking (and making) more midrange jumpers than those people so it’s obvious not a logical comparison.

Was he? How many per game? At what shooting percentage? He's not the only guy mentioned who shot from a distance. And were those the best quality shots available on the possession, or did he settle for them?

What you’ve shown here is just that his FG% is not higher than those other guys which is a different topic.

If you were to analyze his post game you’d pull up the post scoring volume, shot chart and efficiency in the playoffs. Plus you would compare within each era so that you factor in the quality of defense.

No play-type stats prior to 2004-05. The best we can do is are box score, PBP from 1997-2004, and subjective analysis/scouting reports based on available game footage.

You just have to understand the best data you have is not good enough to make the assessment through data only. If one of those players takes 2 more jumpers a game than the others, it will affect the 2PT%, FG% and TS%. That's a poor test.

As for subjective questions like "did he have to?" you need to watch the games or trust someone who did. With all due respect your guess about the data is pretty pointless as an analysis. I've watched all his games multiple times so I know a few things. In the first half of the season he would rely on jumpers a lot. Second half a little less. By the time the playoffs rolled around he was using it sparingly - only as a counter that he'd been honing all season. He was not doing fadeaway/baseline jumpers on the regular in the playoffs, that's just in the highlights. It's commonly known Hakeem had a very intentional plan of saving a gear for the playoffs - which many people criticized at the time. He was torching elite post defenders in the playoffs on a volume of post play that is incomparable to players from later eras.

It's ok to just say you don't know the answer because you neither watched the games nor have the data. I don't mean that disrespectfully. I only have the eye test also.

[tsherkin]

He was torching elite post defenders in the playoffs on a volume of post play that is incomparable to players from later eras.

It's ok to just say you don't know the answer because you neither watched the games nor have the data. I don't mean that disrespectfully. I only have the eye test also.

It's worth mentioning that just because he was a 5 doesn't mean he spent all his time isolating in the post, which is the inference in a lot of commentary about Hakeem's game.

[dhsilv2]

Did he? He averaged 23.5 ppg on 52.6% FG and 56.0% TS in his second season. And he averaged 24+ ppg twice (including 24.8) prior to hitting his peak... which was 26.1, 27.3, 27.8 and 26.9 ppg.

That separation isn't anything special compared to the other guys, even if we constrain ourselves to post players after 79.

With 2.6 assists per 100 in his second year vs a peak of 4.7 per 100 to address pace differences and he did that while increasing his volume to a league leading 27.5 shots per 100 vs 22.5 in 85.

And then of course his playoffs were better in that 3 year run as well.

I'm just pointing out that his scoring volume didn't increase at his peak nearly as much as many like to suggest. It's not that atypical for that level of player. And then you have to start factoring in roster quality differences, coaching style, etc.

5.5 per 100 PLUS the assists. I think it's a pretty meaningful step up.

[tsherkin]

With 2.6 assists per 100 in his second year vs a peak of 4.7 per 100 to address pace differences and he did that while increasing his volume to a league leading 27.5 shots per 100 vs 22.5 in 85.

And then of course his playoffs were better in that 3 year run as well.

I'm just pointing out that his scoring volume didn't increase at his peak nearly as much as many like to suggest. It's not that atypical for that level of player. And then you have to start factoring in roster quality differences, coaching style, etc.

5.5 per 100 PLUS the assists. I think it's a pretty meaningful step up.

Meaningful, sure. It's a peak from an ATG player. But relative to the others? Only so much.

[morosis]

we're discussing a guy who is routinely discussed as the "best" post player, and he demonstrably isn't, that's where the overrating comes from.

forgive me if jumping in where unwelcome. but the problem is in words like "best" and "overrated". "best" meaning what? if best means "efficiency" then olajuwon is clearly not the best. if best means "most complete" then he is up there. if best means "most capable/a solution for any defense" then id say he is the best.

similar for the word "overrated". are we talking about efficiency or ceiling? are we talking versatility regardless of matchup? ability to score on anyone in the world out of the post?

to me post work is about getting a shot you want. hakeem did that superbly. we can argue about whether the shots he wanted were shots "we" would want or shots that he "should" have wanted . . . but they were the shots "he" wanted. his game was built to get shots that in the present day we classify as bad shots. and with the ability to make those, came all of the counters he did to fake the "bad" shot and pivot into a much easier shot. it is what it is.

anyway, again, apologies about the hijack.