Welcome to Orlando, Tyus Jones

[JF5]

Well, Weltman has essentially shut everybody up. Seems to show that hes pretty good at his job.

[yoyojw17]

He's an average drafter. People whiff in the top 10 all the time lol. Paolo/Franz/Suggs are hits, Cole has had a solid career for a 15th pick. The rest are whiffs but the whiff rate on most GMs are pretty similar except a select few. We would've had Bouknight here if our posters wanted to take the reins.

2nd rounder evaluation hasn't been good though.

Agreed. You look at many of the top players in drafts.... and some barely make it to a second contract... let alone become allstars.

Funny that you said bouknight... i was thinking about that recently... "If drafting was a democratic event based off of fan votes.... we would have Bouknight/Moody/Williams on the Magic team instead of Franz in Orlando... and a bunch of people that wouldn't fess up to their 'mistakes'...."

[OrlChamps2030]

He's an average drafter. People whiff in the top 10 all the time lol. Paolo/Franz/Suggs are hits, Cole has had a solid career for a 15th pick. The rest are whiffs but the whiff rate on most GMs are pretty similar except a select few. We would've had Bouknight here if our posters wanted to take the reins.

2nd rounder evaluation hasn't been good though.

Other guards taken in the next 15 picks after Cole:

Maxey, Quickley, Pritchard, Bane

Cole was a bad pick

[JF5]

He's an average drafter. People whiff in the top 10 all the time lol. Paolo/Franz/Suggs are hits, Cole has had a solid career for a 15th pick. The rest are whiffs but the whiff rate on most GMs are pretty similar except a select few. We would've had Bouknight here if our posters wanted to take the reins.

2nd rounder evaluation hasn't been good though.

Agreed. You look at many of the top players in drafts.... and some barely make it to a second contract... let alone become allstars.

Funny that you said bouknight... i was thinking about that recently... "If drafting was a democratic event based off of fan votes.... we would have Bouknight/Moody/Williams on the Magic team instead of Franz in Orlando... and a bunch of people that wouldn't fess up to their 'mistakes'...."

This! And its funny too.

I still go back to the 2022 draft when we got Paolo. Luckily, we have the draft thread for reference and voting numbers about who the Magic should select.

Jabari Smith Jr. Was the overwhelming choice by the fanbase and Paolo was the last out of the Smith Jr., Holmgren, Banchero polling trio at around 15-20 percent.

Even when he got drafted alot of us were confused and thought we would be trading back to get Smith Jr. But that wasn't the case. Not until the first Summer league game where Banchero just dominated Smith Jr. and looked like Carmelo Anthony did people start buying in. I was one of those people who thought we made the wrong pick.

Samething with the Franz pick. People were upset about not selecting Kuminga. And were doubly pissed when he looked like dog crap in summer league. But hindsight is 20/20. People often forget these things and you have to remind them consistently that you as a fan are not a professional NBA executive/scout who does this for a living.

[VFX]

Well, Weltman has essentially shut everybody up. Seems to show that hes pretty good at his job.

Backed into a corner after last season and his seat is hot coming up on a contract renewal.
Yeah.. good job Weltman you made a trade finally and begrudgingly acquired a real point guard for the first time since DJ Augustine.

And lets not forget we have yet to see the fruits of this offseason. We have mortgaged the future on the idea that Desmond Bane will solve all of the current issues in the starting lineup. Decent gamble to take with the way the roster is structured.

People also said KCP was a home run signing 1 total year ago and it took a first round pick circumstantially to get off that mistake.

But yeah. Good job.

[SOUL]

Other guards taken in the next 15 picks after Cole:

Maxey, Quickley, Pritchard, Bane

Cole was a bad pick

You can literally do that every draft. Giannis was drafted after Oladipo. SGA after Bamba, etc.

You could do way better than Cole but also way worse.

[OrlChamps2030]

Other guards taken in the next 15 picks after Cole:

Maxey, Quickley, Pritchard, Bane

Cole was a bad pick

You can literally do that every draft. Giannis was drafted after Oladipo. SGA after Bamba, etc.

You could do way better than Cole but also way worse.

You can’t do that every draft though? Why wouldn’t you compare a player to other players in their draft class, especially at the same position/role?

And no way, are you still defending Bamba in 2025?

[JF5]

Well, Weltman has essentially shut everybody up. Seems to show that hes pretty good at his job.

Backed into a corner after last season and his seat is hot coming up on a contract renewal.
Yeah.. good job Weltman you made a trade finally and begrudgingly acquired a real point guard for the first time since DJ Augustine.

And lets not forget we have yet to see the fruits of this offseason. We have mortgaged the future on the idea that Desmond Bane will solve all of the current issues in the starting lineup. Decent gamble to take with the way the roster is structured.

People also said KCP was a home run signing 1 total year ago and it took a first round pick circumstantially to get off that mistake.

But yeah. Good job.

I've had this conversation with you plenty of times. And the issue you had with Weltman was that hes not building the team the way you wanted them to as quickly as possible.

I honestly knew he had it in him. But I think the impatience that a number of the fanbase has narrows the broader implications of the circumstances surrounding adding players via cap and free agency restrictions after the new CBA, whilst also giving your young players a chance.

So if they improve internally you don't have to pinch pennies a lot sooner like the Magic are doing now with trying to retain M.Wagner and Houstan and having to find ways to maneuver around the new rules whilst staying competitive. As now rookie contracts are as important as ever

You look at a sibling situation in OKC where literally all their players improved at once. They don't have to run into any major cap issues until 2-3 seasons from now when Jalen Williams is set to get paid and SGA's Supermax kicks in. They're able to get premium role players like they did in IH and Caruso in the process and able to "kick the can down the road". The Magic cannot do that now.

That's why last year for the Magic was important in the development sense that you and others could not see. Now windows for contention might be shorter in the long term sense and the ability to get premium surrounding pieces/flexibility in the short and long term has evaporated.

This was a lot more calculated than fans think given everything that has happened with the CBA.

Plus, the fact you're upset about the Magic mortgaging their future when you wanted them to make win now moves going back to Paolo's rookie season is VERY hypocritical.

[SOUL]

[
And no way, are you still defending Bamba in 2025?

Huh? What about that post is "defending" Bamba? lol. Cole was someone considered a relative lock around that spot, was taken there and turned out to be "okay" for us but not a home run pick. Of course I would prefer if our scouting could identify a similarly roled player who is being mocked a bit further down and selected him, or trading down to get them around that area. Most GMs whiffed on that, including the great Sam Presti.

Guys like Maxey, Bane, etc would've been GREAT picks there. But the same logic would apply to Jett (ignore Michigan ties for a minute lol) where if a team like the Magic identified him as their guy instead of "consensus" Dick or Dawkins picks, then if they thought he'd be amazing no matter what, you just pick him. It didn't work out but I'm seeing people trash those selections but then get mad at not identifying late round steals too, or not selecting relative "reaches" (at the time) in Cole's spot.

Bamba was considered a top 4 talent in the draft and was our hypothetical center of the future because Vucevic had two sub-par years in a row, didn't have a three point shot yet, and also wasn't used for his passing at all either. Vucevic blossomed the year after and that made the pick immediately devalued since Bamba had no positional versatility.

There's way more nuance to selections and the realities of the time rather than "wow the GM didn't pick the best player" hindsight.

[VFX]

Well, Weltman has essentially shut everybody up. Seems to show that hes pretty good at his job.

Backed into a corner after last season and his seat is hot coming up on a contract renewal.
Yeah.. good job Weltman you made a trade finally and begrudgingly acquired a real point guard for the first time since DJ Augustine.

And lets not forget we have yet to see the fruits of this offseason. We have mortgaged the future on the idea that Desmond Bane will solve all of the current issues in the starting lineup. Decent gamble to take with the way the roster is structured.

People also said KCP was a home run signing 1 total year ago and it took a first round pick circumstantially to get off that mistake.

But yeah. Good job.

I've had this conversation with you plenty of times. And the issue you had with Weltman was that hes not building the team the way you wanted them to as quickly as possible.

Plus, the fact you're upset about the Magic mortgaging their future when you wanted them to make win now moves going back to Paolo's rookie season is VERY hypocritical.

I don’t want to turn a positive Tyus thread into a Weltman thread but you had to do an “I told you so” so here we are.

And no, you are incorrect with what my “problem” was. It was never “win-now” moves. It was balancing moves with the future in mind. You know.. before you start handing out max contracts like they’re candy. I’ve explained this in detail to you and you disregard it entirely.

Using OKC as an example is kind of hilarious because their draft selections were so successful that they could make 3 moves to convince starters to become role players due to how great the team was on both sides of the floor. Not the case at all with Orlando. That’s comparing apples to oranges.

Tyus Jones should have been a move 3 seasons ago if we are being real. People here still defended keeping Fultz up until the very last minute development or asset value be damned. This is the first offseason where we don’t have 5 players on the roster here prior to the core existing at all.

We will still have fans like yourself make justifications as to why it’s absolutely crucial Jonathan Isaac and Wendell Carter need to be here by any means necessary. Weltman just couldn’t justify Cole or Gary anymore thank god.

I’m not “upset” about the Bane move or this move. It was necessary given the circumstances with where the team landed. Now, could other decisions have been made prior that would have made it possible without 4 future firsts? Absolutely. But that’s what happens if you don’t make decisions for 4 years and draft Cole over a guy like Bane. Sure, you could make the argument that “it’s just the draft it’s a crapshoot” but it all adds up anyway in the end. Refusing to make decisions on the fringes compounds that if you miss on those kinds of picks routinely.

Weltman has done well this offseason with what he’s had. But to say “I told you so haters” is kind of funny considering it dismisses every other stupid move, or indecision, up to a month ago because he made a high stakes move for once when he couldn’t afford not to.

[OrlChamps2030]

[
And no way, are you still defending Bamba in 2025?

Huh? What about that post is "defending" Bamba? lol. Cole was someone considered a relative lock around that spot, was taken there and turned out to be "okay" for us but not a home run pick. Of course I would prefer if our scouting could identify a similarly roled player who is being mocked a bit further down and selected him, or trading down to get them around that area. Most GMs whiffed on that, including the great Sam Presti.

Guys like Maxey, Bane, etc would've been GREAT picks there. But the same logic would apply to Jett (ignore Michigan ties for a minute lol) where if a team like the Magic identified him as their guy instead of "consensus" Dick or Dawkins picks, then if they thought he'd be amazing no matter what, you just pick him. It didn't work out but I'm seeing people trash those selections but then get mad at not identifying late round steals too, or not selecting relative "reaches" (at the time) in Cole's spot.

Bamba was considered a top 4 talent in the draft and was our hypothetical center of the future because Vucevic had two sub-par years in a row, didn't have a three point shot yet, and also wasn't used for his passing at all either. Vucevic blossomed the year after and that made the pick immediately devalued since Bamba had no positional versatility.

There's way more nuance to selections and the realities of the time rather than "wow the GM didn't pick the best player" hindsight.

- Maxey wasn’t a reach at 15

- I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make in the bold

You’re typing a lot but not actually saying much tbh. I feel like I’m the one applying nuance here - you’re saying Cole was an okay pick at 15. Im saying he’s a bad pick because 4 similar role/archetype players who are much better went shortly after him. Draft classes aren’t static, you have to use nuance and grade based upon relativity.. If those 4 guys didn’t go after Cole and he was the best guard left in the draft, I’d agree he was an okay pick. But those guys did go after him.

[SOUL]

You’re typing a lot but not actually saying much tbh. I feel like I’m the one applying nuance here - you’re saying Cole was an okay pick at 15. Im saying he’s a bad pick because 4 similar role/archetype players who are much better went shortly after him. Draft classes aren’t static, you have to use nuance and grade based upon relativity.. If those 4 guys didn’t go after Cole and he was the best guard left in the draft, I’d agree he was an okay pick. But those guys did go after him.

You brought up a "defending Bamba" point and then didn't expound upon it at all is what I'm most confused about lol.

Bane and Pritchard were always going to be later picks and I didn't see any talk of us really being connected to them at any point. I mean, we can nitpick about Maxey, sure, but they were both undersized guards from prestigious schools who didn't shoot well in their one college year.

Maxey shot 42/29/82 in his one year.
Cole shot 38/34//75 in his one year (10 less games)

Maxey had better win shares, less usage, Cole had a better BPM/OBPM advanced stats wise.

From the Orlando Magic website itself as far as draft comps:

Maxey - NBA Comparisons: Lou Williams, Jordan Clarkson, Nickeil Alexander-Walker
Cole - NBA Comparisons: Coby White, Jamal Murray

Ultimately, yes, you would like your draft picks to be right more often than not. I just don't think there's much thought in going back in past drafts and then going "they didn't pick the best player, therefore they suck" lol. Cole-Maxey is probably the best actual debate you can make outside of the Jett pick, but I certainly couldn't proclaim which one of them at the next level would hit more frequently. I also don't get paid for that, so obviously we want them to be right more often than not, but I see why they did it.

Most drafts are really a crapshoot past.. 10? You've making predictive assumptions and hoping that your team construction and current expectation can allow them to grow best alongside your team. Nobody even mentions the "right pick, wrong team" picks that often end up happening, guys like Nesmith, Jerome, Grimes, etc. I'm just glad we've mainly hit when it counts the last 5 years (Franz/Suggs/Paolo). As fendilim said even Isaac in theory was a solid pick outside of injuries we couldn't predict.

[SOUL]

Also what I'm basically trying to say is Cole is a perfectly acceptable talent level player for 15. It just sucks we basically lost the coin flip evaluation of a way better player in Maxey.

What I consider TRUE misses are things like Minnesota whiffing twice on Curry or picks like Ayton or the Fultz/Tatum trade.

[I Rasharted]

We have a functional backcourt?

WE HAVE A FUNCTIONAL BACKCOURT

[Idiosyncratic]

Also what I'm basically trying to say is Cole is a perfectly acceptable talent level player for 15. It just sucks we basically lost the coin flip evaluation of a way better player in Maxey.

What I consider TRUE misses are things like Minnesota whiffing twice on Curry or picks like Ayton or the Fultz/Tatum trade.

I agree with what you're saying. I had Cole near "do not draft" coming into that draft, but based off of where he was picked and his actual production it is hard to say he was a bust.

I get being upset about missing on better players that go later, but I mean by that logic you could have a perfectly solid #1 pick like Cade or something, but a Jokic goes in the 2nd. Did you suddenly do bad at #1 because of that?

Cole pick could have been way better, but wasn't terrible. I mean that is the case with most picks made by everyone though. Even if you hit, someone probably did better than you later in the draft, it's really hard to know. You just keep trying and hope you do better than average as a whole and maybe luck into a star occasionally too.

[VFX]

Also what I'm basically trying to say is Cole is a perfectly acceptable talent level player for 15. It just sucks we basically lost the coin flip evaluation of a way better player in Maxey.

What I consider TRUE misses are things like Minnesota whiffing twice on Curry or picks like Ayton or the Fultz/Tatum trade.

When people get caught up in the “draft misses” debate they aren’t looking at it through an accurate lens.

I don’t think anyone should be at fault for not landing a star in the middle of the draft when other teams miss too.

Looking at a single example like Cole in a vacuum isn’t a good argument. It’s when you miss on Bamba, Chuma, Cole, and Jett over the course of multiple drafts, routinely missing a number of better options, is when the evaluation is suspect.

I’ll even throw AB and TDS into that mix knowing what we know at this moment to be honest with you.

[magik9113]

Woke up on my vacation in Italia to some wonderful news !!!!!!!
Great offseason so far
LET’S FKN GO

You got to plan better bro…I’m going NEXT week

I got invited to concert on June 25th (months ago) but I caught it in time (draft night) to decline…priorities!

Nice, man! what part(s) you visiting?
I do my best to follow the offseason news when I’m here…this made my already amazing summer even better for sure. Been wanting this guy for a few seasons now

[Skybox]

Remember Tyus Jones is like the worst defender in the league. I think his success has more to do with Jonathan Isaac’s health this season, so he can cover for him. I wouldn’t put him on the floor without JI.

I’m all for offense-first players. Just set your expectations. Maybe Mosley can get him to hustle a bit.

There is reason why he is a backup and signed 1 year $7M. For the Magic is about shoring up weaknesses with these moves and so far they are.

Not to mention that every guard we've ever suggested trading for has been called the worst defender in history on here

[Skybox]

Woke up on my vacation in Italia to some wonderful news !!!!!!!
Great offseason so far
LET’S FKN GO

You got to plan better bro…I’m going NEXT week

I got invited to concert on June 25th (months ago) but I caught it in time (draft night) to decline…priorities!

Nice, man! what part(s) you visiting?
I do my best to follow the offseason news when I’m here…this made my already amazing summer even better for sure. Been wanting this guy for a few seasons now

Pretty epic trip..my wife is a big tennis player, so she and her friends are going to Wimbledon. I'm coming later and meeting for a day in London, then Venice, Milan and, primarily, trains all over Switzerland...very excited.

*I figure this is ok to post since Tyus Jones thread has already degraded into "Bamba sucks" draft analysis

[tooler]

Remember Tyus Jones is like the worst defender in the league. I think his success has more to do with Jonathan Isaac’s health this season, so he can cover for him. I wouldn’t put him on the floor without JI.

I’m all for offense-first players. Just set your expectations. Maybe Mosley can get him to hustle a bit.

There is reason why he is a backup and signed 1 year $7M. For the Magic is about shoring up weaknesses with these moves and so far they are.

Not to mention that every guard we've ever suggested trading for has been called the worst defender in history on here

I remember Jones was literally the worst in defensive EPM one year. But teams hunted Cole Anthony too, so I think we’re already used to this.