Was Hakeem Olajuwon's post-up game a little overrated?

[LakerLegend]

When will Realgm realize basketball isn’t played in a spreadsheet? There’s context to everything.

[DCasey91]

I disagree he's overrated might want to check his PS scoring 93-95 especially with the way he got it. Why do you think he rose where others dropped? Some considerably so

Again, though, when we're discussing a guy who is routinely discussed as the "best" post player, and he demonstrably isn't, that's where the overrating comes from.

And when you talk about PS scoring, you're still not separating out how much he scored OUTSIDE of the post.

Mchale had Bird and DJ cmon now.

Who are the guys you're comparing Hakeem to then? Name them.

Read the thread...

My guy your just saying words with justification. I laid out my reasoning clearly.

Yeah, but your reasoning is bad. It's incomplete and meandering.

You keep changing the goalposts where is it incomplete Mr. Perfect?

I laid my points out clearly and you haven't responded to any of them meaningful.

What separation? Wtf are you talking about you're the one meandering

Look at how close PS ts% is between Shaq, Kareem and Hakeem and you use that type of stuff. I literally just said Shaq was a better facilitator you know... in the post.

I think Hakeem has the best post moves but best post player are two different things.

You still haven't championed a guy???
I put up a whole list of reasons yet you can't come up with even one...

You just say overrated and that's it. Overrated to his peers? Overrated to an apple? What. His peers were Robinson, Ewing and later on Shaq ffs. Post play to me is elbow in. Always will be for bigs imo there I answered your stupid insistence for explaining things you know what I mean don't play dumb.

You wrote out Dantley....... what? Like legit what? Huh and you have the nerve to say what I state is incomplete. What where you thinking in that and then use DROB and Ewing as horrible comp.

I'm pretty sure I got closer my with reasoning as to the why with Kobe, Jordan, SGA and Giannis then to Dantley.... but sure everything is correct in your mind.

Talk about hyprocisy

I'm done with posters that just type stuff out with nothing to add on. Good day

[dhsilv2]

I'm just pointing out that his scoring volume didn't increase at his peak nearly as much as many like to suggest. It's not that atypical for that level of player. And then you have to start factoring in roster quality differences, coaching style, etc.

5.5 per 100 PLUS the assists. I think it's a pretty meaningful step up.

Meaningful, sure. It's a peak from an ATG player. But relative to the others? Only so much.

That's just when talking stats. The reality is Hakeem's play making was a huge step up...all be it from brain dead Moses Malone level to quality. Still it was a huge leap. It wasn't addressing scoring alone in that comment.

[druggas]

What's with RealGM anymore? Always wanting to tear down old great players, by looking for stats when they haven't watched the player play. And YouTube isn't the same thing.

[dhsilv2]

When will Realgm realize basketball isn’t played in a spreadsheet? There’s context to everything.

Good news...this entire post is spread sheet free! It was even made with hopes people would discuss context I bet.

[dhsilv2]

What's with RealGM anymore? Always wanting to tear down old great players, by looking for stats when they haven't watched the player play. And YouTube isn't the same thing.

Nobody here hasn't seen Hakeem play dude.

[druggas]

What's with RealGM anymore? Always wanting to tear down old great players, by looking for stats when they haven't watched the player play. And YouTube isn't the same thing.

Nobody here hasn't seen Hakeem play dude.

Yes dude, there are posters that haven't seen him play. Don't be naive.

[CobraCommander]

When will Realgm realize basketball isn’t played in a spreadsheet? There’s context to everything.

His game was insane- Hakeem right now would be in mvp race every damn year - and DPOY every damn year… he would give Wemby and Jokic fits

[Masigond]

What's with RealGM anymore? Always wanting to tear down old great players, by looking for stats when they haven't watched the player play. And YouTube isn't the same thing.

Wild claim that users haven't watched Olajuwon, especially on RealGM. There are many here who have seen him and support the claim that Olajuwon might not have been the clear best post-up player in the history of the NBA.

There's a difference between tearing players down and putting things into perspective. There have been some posts where users said what I'd second: In terms of skills Olajuwon was the best post-up player ever, only rivaled by Jokic and maybe McHale.
But that's not what matters the most. A player with a single move in the post that's even more efficient would be the even better post-up player in terms of impact. Olajuwon was great to elite, but certainly not the sure ATG.
I think that Shaq was one of those with a good argument to be seen as better. Not as skilled, but with his frame, strength and agility he didn't need as many moves as Hakeem. Neither did Abdul-Jabbar who had an unstoppable move opponents never figured out to stop. That said: They weren't vastly superior, but overall they were a tad more efficient in the post, all while having somewhat comparable outputs.

So the question if Olajuwon's post-up game could be a little overrated has some validity. Again: Not in terms of skills or style. But in terms of simply being the most effective and efficient post-up scorer. There are a few couple of players who were as good as him or even a tad better.

[SkyBill40]

Hakeem's post game overrated?



You need to go back and watch some tape, OP. FFS.

[dhsilv2]

What's with RealGM anymore? Always wanting to tear down old great players, by looking for stats when they haven't watched the player play. And YouTube isn't the same thing.

Nobody here hasn't seen Hakeem play dude.

Yes dude, there are posters that haven't seen him play. Don't be naive.

Not only is this board overwhelmingly over 35 if not 40. But youtube is a thing. Nobody here hasn't seen Hakeem. Now that said, Hakeem is most certainly the guy over the last 15 years who's gone up in people's rankings the most post playing career due to highlights and more people having seen those vs full games. Which is why threads like this exist.

[dhsilv2]

When will Realgm realize basketball isn’t played in a spreadsheet? There’s context to everything.

His game was insane- Hakeem right now would be in mvp race every damn year - and DPOY every damn year… he would give Wemby and Jokic fits

Define in the race? Cause dude had 2 top three finishes his whole actual career.

[LakerLegend]

What's with RealGM anymore? Always wanting to tear down old great players, by looking for stats when they haven't watched the player play. And YouTube isn't the same thing.

Nobody here hasn't seen Hakeem play dude.

Yes dude, there are posters that haven't seen him play. Don't be naive.

Lol, there are probably a lot of posters here who weren’t even born when Hakeem retired.

[FrodoBaggins]

This thread further proves there's an almost fanatical-like mythology surrounding Olajuwon's post-up game. The idea that it's beyond reproach is ludicrous. I simply suggested that he may not be the undisputed greatest post player, which many do believe, but merely one of the best. I think that's a fairly reasonable stance given the data, game footage, and scouting reports.

[NZB2323]

Hakeem career 2pt%: 51.6
Kareem career 2pt%: 55.6
Shaq career 2pt%: 58.0
Wilt career 2pt%: 53.8
Barkley career 2pt%: 57.8
McHale career 2pt%: 55.8
Dantley career 2pt%: 54.0
Jokic career 2pt%: 60.4

In the playoffs Hakeem’s percentage jumps to 53%.

People remember stuff when the lights are the brightest, in the playoffs, when narratives are built.

1995: David Robinson wins MVP, is 4th in DPOTY voting, has home court advantage as the 1st seed against a 6th seed. Hakeem drops 35 ppg on him on 56% shooting as the Rockets win in 6.

I think it’s really the highlights of Hakeem lighting up David Robinson that show how great he was. The average person doesn’t care if another player shot better during regular season games.

[bledredwine]

Tyson Chandler and Deandre Jordan have some of the best FG%'s of all time.
Are they great scorers?


It all depends on shots taken. Hakeem was versatile, meaning he could take deep midrange shots and wild post shots.
Those are lower percentage shots.
But he hit enough of them that his shot creation was far more valuable.
His teams had less dry spells than most because of that, and scoring was more challenging at that time period.
The lane had more traffic.

This is all true. I think it escapes the point of the thread, but it's worth lingering on for a second, because it touches on some stuff others have said as well. This thread isn't about saying Hakeem was a BAD scorer. I think it's very, very clear that he was quite a good scorer. And his ability to perform in the playoffs as a scorer was quite solid as well, which has also been indicated.

Defending him to point out that he was a good scorer isn't the right path, though. Everyone KNOWS he was a great scorer. That's... kind of a given. But we're comparing a specific subset of the scoring skill here. So the broad conversations about his overall scoring ability somewhat miss the point, because he didn't JUST score in the post. Exactly as you noted, he had a variety of other tools which helped expand his relevance and his resilience against higher-order defenses.

But that's not really what we're talking about here. We're talking about specifically post scoring skills. And unlike someone like Shaq or Wilt, Hakeem could and did score in other ways. MORE like Ewing and Robinson, or rather something in the middle of those guys and the pure post scorers.

You’re right about that, but in that case, field goal percentage has little to do with his post scoring, which is second to none. That’s one of his best if not his best skill. He had such a variety of moves and potentially the best footwork in the history of the game. When it came to the finals, it was evident that his post game was unguardable.

Dominating Robinson, Ewing and Shaq in a couple of playoff runs is unparalleled IMO. Watching those series is indicative, not the field goal percentage. FG tends to be lower the most outside shots you take (or difficult of shots), but plenty of those high volume players tend to be able to get their buckets in any scenario. The others with simpler physically imposing buckets, like Shaq, can be slowed down with an imposing/skilled defender (Wallace or Hakeem for example), even if it’s once in a blue moon.

[Optms]

This thread further proves there's an almost fanatical-like mythology surrounding Olajuwon's post-up game. The idea that it's beyond reproach is ludicrous. I simply suggested that he may not be the undisputed greatest post player, which many do believe, but merely one of the best. I think that's a fairly reasonable stance given the data, game footage, and scouting reports.

You cited Kevin McHale as a better post player for crying out loud.

So this isn't even about some mythology like suggested. Then you cited Jokic. Just a pointing it out that you are free to discuss it all day long. Just like I am free to think Curry is better than Kobe, Duncan, Shaq based on the criteria and data that I present. It doesn't mean the consensus will ever agree or that it will catch traction.

[NZB2323]

This thread further proves there's an almost fanatical-like mythology surrounding Olajuwon's post-up game. The idea that it's beyond reproach is ludicrous. I simply suggested that he may not be the undisputed greatest post player, which many do believe, but merely one of the best. I think that's a fairly reasonable stance given the data, game footage, and scouting reports.

He may not be the undisputed greatest post player ever, but I don’t think people really count Shaq as a great post move player. Shaq turned around and dunked on people, which isn’t really a “post-move.”

Barkley scored a lot on fast breaks, offensive rebounds, and driving to the basket, which aren’t post moves.

Jokic passes a lot from the post, which isn’t a post-move.

If there was a 1-on-1 tournament where players started with the ball in the post and could only do post moves, I believe Hakeem would win.

[bledredwine]

This thread further proves there's an almost fanatical-like mythology surrounding Olajuwon's post-up game. The idea that it's beyond reproach is ludicrous. I simply suggested that he may not be the undisputed greatest post player, which many do believe, but merely one of the best. I think that's a fairly reasonable stance given the data, game footage, and scouting reports.

It is completely reasonable. But it’s also reasonable that many of us think he has the best post game or top three at worst. An important part of post game is variety of moves, to create in any situation, and Hakeem had this in spades. Sure, he took more challenging shots. It all depends on what you consider most important. I take Hakeem because I want someone who can take it to any defender.

You’re getting this guttural reaction because for many of us, he dominated our favorite players or surprised us with his skills. After experiencing Hakeem, it’s hard to deny his post skills, at least for me. The dude was too quick, long and skilled all around for someone that size. And he dominated at the pinnacle of elite defensive (and offensive) centers.

I’d be curious to see how different centers did against their best competition. Jokic with Embiid is a tough matchup, for example. I can’t think of one for Hakeem.

[FrodoBaggins]

This thread further proves there's an almost fanatical-like mythology surrounding Olajuwon's post-up game. The idea that it's beyond reproach is ludicrous. I simply suggested that he may not be the undisputed greatest post player, which many do believe, but merely one of the best. I think that's a fairly reasonable stance given the data, game footage, and scouting reports.

You cited Kevin McHale as a better post player for crying out loud.

Which is a perfectly reasonable stance, given the data and game footage.

So this isn't even about some mythology like suggested. Then you cited Jokic. Just a pointing it out that you are free to discuss it all day long. Just like I am free to think Curry is better than Kobe, Duncan, Shaq based on the criteria and data that I present. It doesn't mean the consensus will ever agree or that it will catch traction.

This seems a tad immature. No player is beyond reproach.