Was Hakeem Olajuwon's post-up game a little overrated?

[morosis]

This thread further proves there's an almost fanatical-like mythology surrounding Olajuwon's post-up game. The idea that it's beyond reproach is ludicrous. I simply suggested that he may not be the undisputed greatest post player, which many do believe, but merely one of the best. I think that's a fairly reasonable stance given the data, game footage, and scouting reports.

the word "fan" is just short for "fanatic". haha.

i 100% admit to being biased. but i also 100% believe that olajuwon could beat any style/era of center in the post and that because i believe this, he is the best.

to articulate more clearly: i think if you took many of the centers from yesteryear we appreciate as being great, and you put them up against shaq in the post, or wemby in the post, like very extreme matchups, you'll find that maybe they had flaws in their post play that just weren't exposed. but olajuwon did actually school shaq and almost every one of his peers in the post, and i think he'd do just fine against wemby, because he was that creative, agile, and adaptable. (to be clear, i'm not saying that olajuwon is the ONLY guy who would pass this "test" but i think his post game would be among the least affected by who the opposing center is)

reasonable people may disagree. that's why these threads are fun

[FrodoBaggins]

This thread further proves there's an almost fanatical-like mythology surrounding Olajuwon's post-up game. The idea that it's beyond reproach is ludicrous. I simply suggested that he may not be the undisputed greatest post player, which many do believe, but merely one of the best. I think that's a fairly reasonable stance given the data, game footage, and scouting reports.

the word "fan" is just short for "fanatic". haha.

i 100% admit to being biased. but i also 100% believe that olajuwon could beat any style/era of center in the post and that because i believe this, he is the best.

to articulate more clearly: i think if you took many of the centers from yesteryear we appreciate as being great, and you put them up against shaq in the post, or wemby in the post, like very extreme matchups, you'll find that maybe they had flaws in their post play that just weren't exposed. but olajuwon did actually school shaq and almost every one of his peers in the post, and i think he'd do just fine against wemby, because he was that creative, agile, and adaptable. (to be clear, i'm not saying that olajuwon is the ONLY guy who would pass this "test" but i think his post game would be among the least affected by who the opposing center is)

reasonable people may disagree. that's why these threads are fun

Did he? Watch the 1986 NBA Finals. McHale (age 28) put up 25.8 ppg on 57.3% 2PT and 62.9% TS in comparison to 24.7 ppg on 47.9% 2PT and 52.6% TS for Olajuwon (age 23).

Kevin won the battle of the post-up greats. Granted, Hakeem didn't guard McHale, but his help defense was too slow for Kevin's laser-quick catch-and-finish post possessions. On the flipside, McHale did guard Olajuwon, blocking him on a number of possessions in the post:

[bledredwine]

Btw, McHale was a great post player- don’t blame him for bringing him up. How someone could deny McHale is beyond me. So was Barkley.

I saw these those posts earlier and had to disagree with those points, despite agreeing with their points otherwise.

[FrodoBaggins]

And the 1995 NBA Finals was largely a wash between Shaq and Hakeem:

viewtopic.php?t=2370986

The 1995 Finals featured an epic big man duel between young Shaquille O'Neal and Hakeem Olajuwon. This is my tracking of the two big men in the series and how they fared against each other.



For much of the series, the two men guarded each other. In fact, for most of the time they were on the floor, they were matched up unless one of them was in foul trouble. In those instances, Orlando used Horace Grant on Hakeem and Houston used Charles Jones on Shaq. On a few possessions, both Hakeem and Shaq were switched onto other smaller players who contested them.

Apart from shooting, the tracking also includes fouls drawn and turnovers but I only included turnovers caused by the other player. For example, if Hakeem drew a charge on Shaq or stripped Shaq of the ball, I counted those but if Shaq threw a bad pass that got intercepted by Kenny Smith, I didn't count that.



Game 1: Orlando 118 - 120 Houston (OT)

Shaq: +6 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: -7 ON, +9 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 90 - 77 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 19 points, 7/12 shooting, 5/7 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 19 points, 8/17 shooting, 3/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 1 turnover



Game 2: Orlando 106 - 117 Houston

Shaq: -3 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: +5 ON, +6 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 92 - 93 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 8/15 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 18 points, 8/19 shooting, 2/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 3: Houston 106 - 103 Orlando

Shaq: +1 ON, -4 OFF
Hakeem: +4 ON, -1 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 96 - 95 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 23 points, 10/16 shooting, 3/4 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 16 points, 7/20 shooting, 2/3 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 4: Houston 113 - 101 Orlando

Shaq: -16 ON +4 OFF
Hakeem: +15 ON -3 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 106 - 87 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 9/16 shooting, 0/0 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 17 points, 7/17 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers *one 3pt make



Series Summary

Scoring Margin: Houston +28

Shaq: -12 ON -16 OFF
Hakeem: +17 ON +11 OFF

When Both ON: Houston +7

Per 100 Possessions

Shaq ON: 111.8 ORtg, 115.2 DRtg, -3.4 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON: 115.3 ORtg, 110.5 DRtg, +4.8 Net Rtg

Shaq OFF: 89.3 ORtg, 136.9 DRtg, -47.6 Net Rtg
Hakeem OFF: 134.9 ORtg, 104.0 DRtg, +30.9 Net Rtg

Shaq ON-OFF: +44.2 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON-OFF: -26.1 Net Rtg



Series Totals - Man Defense

Hakeem
Defended by Shaq: 70 points, 44.0 %TS (30/73 FG, 9/15 FT), 10 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Grant: 42 points, 62.6 %TS (18/30 FG, 6/8 FT), 4 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 19 points, 66.3 %TS (8/13 FG, 3/3 FT), 4 fouls drawn

Shaq
Defended by Hakeem: 78 points, 59.3 %TS (34/60 FG, 10/13 FT), 13 fouls drawn, 8 turnovers
Defended by Jones: 19 points, 60.4 %TS (6/10 FG, 7/13 FT), 8 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 15 points, 67.9 %TS (4/4 FG, 7/16 FT), 9 fouls drawn



Conclusions:

In the direct matchup, Shaq got the better of Hakeem scoring more on much higher efficiency and drawing more fouls on the other. Although Hakeem forced more turnovers on Shaq than vice versa, it's hard to say that Hakeem didn't lose the matchup.

it was a contrast of styles with Shaq overwhelming Hakeem with raw strength and athleticism and Hakeem getting the better of Shaq in face up situations beating him off the dribble and with his jukes, spins, and dream shakes.

As for who was the better overall player in the series, I'd probably call it a wash. Hakeem dominated when defended by Horace Grant who is a really good defender more so than Shaq dominated Charles Jones. Hakeem also had an edge in overall team defense although Shaq was quite good in this area himself. Shaq not only did a great job defending Hakeem but he blocked more shots than Olajuwon in the series and was very active defensively.

Ultimately the play of these two monsters isn't what determined the series. Excluding Drexler and Penny who in my opinion also played each other close to a draw, the supporting cast of the Rockets completely outplayed that of Orlando. Anderson after infamously missing the four free throws at the end of regulation in Game 1 was shook and never the same afterwards. Dennis Scott's shooting was off all series and he gave the team virtually nothing as well and since Anderson and Scott averaged around 40 mpg, that hurt the Magic a lot. On the other hand, the likes of Horry, Cassell, Elie and Kenny Smith were amazingly clutch, devastating in transition and shot the lights out from 3pt range. It was the Rockets' role players that won this series.

[bledredwine]

And the 1995 NBA Finals was largely a wash between Shaq and Hakeem:

viewtopic.php?t=2370986

The 1995 Finals featured an epic big man duel between young Shaquille O'Neal and Hakeem Olajuwon. This is my tracking of the two big men in the series and how they fared against each other.



For much of the series, the two men guarded each other. In fact, for most of the time they were on the floor, they were matched up unless one of them was in foul trouble. In those instances, Orlando used Horace Grant on Hakeem and Houston used Charles Jones on Shaq. On a few possessions, both Hakeem and Shaq were switched onto other smaller players who contested them.

Apart from shooting, the tracking also includes fouls drawn and turnovers but I only included turnovers caused by the other player. For example, if Hakeem drew a charge on Shaq or stripped Shaq of the ball, I counted those but if Shaq threw a bad pass that got intercepted by Kenny Smith, I didn't count that.



Game 1: Orlando 118 - 120 Houston (OT)

Shaq: +6 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: -7 ON, +9 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 90 - 77 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 19 points, 7/12 shooting, 5/7 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 19 points, 8/17 shooting, 3/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 1 turnover



Game 2: Orlando 106 - 117 Houston

Shaq: -3 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: +5 ON, +6 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 92 - 93 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 8/15 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 18 points, 8/19 shooting, 2/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 3: Houston 106 - 103 Orlando

Shaq: +1 ON, -4 OFF
Hakeem: +4 ON, -1 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 96 - 95 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 23 points, 10/16 shooting, 3/4 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 16 points, 7/20 shooting, 2/3 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 4: Houston 113 - 101 Orlando

Shaq: -16 ON +4 OFF
Hakeem: +15 ON -3 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 106 - 87 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 9/16 shooting, 0/0 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 17 points, 7/17 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers *one 3pt make



Series Summary

Scoring Margin: Houston +28

Shaq: -12 ON -16 OFF
Hakeem: +17 ON +11 OFF

When Both ON: Houston +7

Per 100 Possessions

Shaq ON: 111.8 ORtg, 115.2 DRtg, -3.4 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON: 115.3 ORtg, 110.5 DRtg, +4.8 Net Rtg

Shaq OFF: 89.3 ORtg, 136.9 DRtg, -47.6 Net Rtg
Hakeem OFF: 134.9 ORtg, 104.0 DRtg, +30.9 Net Rtg

Shaq ON-OFF: +44.2 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON-OFF: -26.1 Net Rtg



Series Totals - Man Defense

Hakeem
Defended by Shaq: 70 points, 44.0 %TS (30/73 FG, 9/15 FT), 10 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Grant: 42 points, 62.6 %TS (18/30 FG, 6/8 FT), 4 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 19 points, 66.3 %TS (8/13 FG, 3/3 FT), 4 fouls drawn

Shaq
Defended by Hakeem: 78 points, 59.3 %TS (34/60 FG, 10/13 FT), 13 fouls drawn, 8 turnovers
Defended by Jones: 19 points, 60.4 %TS (6/10 FG, 7/13 FT), 8 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 15 points, 67.9 %TS (4/4 FG, 7/16 FT), 9 fouls drawn



Conclusions:

In the direct matchup, Shaq got the better of Hakeem scoring more on much higher efficiency and drawing more fouls on the other. Although Hakeem forced more turnovers on Shaq than vice versa, it's hard to say that Hakeem didn't lose the matchup.

it was a contrast of styles with Shaq overwhelming Hakeem with raw strength and athleticism and Hakeem getting the better of Shaq in face up situations beating him off the dribble and with his jukes, spins, and dream shakes.

As for who was the better overall player in the series, I'd probably call it a wash. Hakeem dominated when defended by Horace Grant who is a really good defender more so than Shaq dominated Charles Jones. Hakeem also had an edge in overall team defense although Shaq was quite good in this area himself. Shaq not only did a great job defending Hakeem but he blocked more shots than Olajuwon in the series and was very active defensively.

Ultimately the play of these two monsters isn't what determined the series. Excluding Drexler and Penny who in my opinion also played each other close to a draw, the supporting cast of the Rockets completely outplayed that of Orlando. Anderson after infamously missing the four free throws at the end of regulation in Game 1 was shook and never the same afterwards. Dennis Scott's shooting was off all series and he gave the team virtually nothing as well and since Anderson and Scott averaged around 40 mpg, that hurt the Magic a lot. On the other hand, the likes of Horry, Cassell, Elie and Kenny Smith were amazingly clutch, devastating in transition and shot the lights out from 3pt range. It was the Rockets' role players that won this series.

This is one of those examples where I just can't get behind these stats.

Even Shaq tells people that Hakeem had his number in that series, and the eye test certainly confirmed.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

I've heard him say this much more emphatically before, but this popped up.

[morosis]

Did he? Watch the 1986 NBA Finals. McHale (age 28) put up 25.8 ppg on 57.3% 2PT and 62.9% TS in comparison to 24.7 ppg on 47.9% 2PT and 52.6% TS for Olajuwon (age 23).

Kevin won the battle of the post-up greats. Granted, Hakeem didn't guard McHale, but his help defense was too slow for Kevin's laser-quick catch-and-finish post possessions. On the flipside, McHale did guard Olajuwon, blocking him on a number of possessions in the post:

that's why i said "almost".

mchale is one of the few that in my mind is a reasonable alternative if you wanted to pick a post GOAT.

one of the things that is always a bit frustrating with this stuff is how much is left to the imagination. mchale was ~3-4 years ahead of olajuwon when comparing their peaks (i consider 86-90 the best mchale btw). olajuwon didnt become the guy we remember until tomjanovich so like 92-ish. and the same argument exists when comparing olajuwon to shaq, who was also devastating in the post. albeit shaq was dominant for basically his entire career or at least until 2006-ish.

again, that's the fun. we all have our guys who we think are the best, due to whatever qualitative factors we appreciate.

[dhsilv2]

Nobody here hasn't seen Hakeem play dude.

Yes dude, there are posters that haven't seen him play. Don't be naive.

Lol, there are probably a lot of posters here who weren’t even born when Hakeem retired.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2313009&p=107886657&hilit=age#p107886657

I mean this isn't even an old poll. But 89% of posters here are 30 or older. Of the 11% in the 20-29 I guess we'd need more refinement but I'd guess over half of that group given the general skew is over 25 too. Sorry but just no. People that young are on reddit or tik tok. Not a message board like this.

[dhsilv2]

Hakeem career 2pt%: 51.6
Kareem career 2pt%: 55.6
Shaq career 2pt%: 58.0
Wilt career 2pt%: 53.8
Barkley career 2pt%: 57.8
McHale career 2pt%: 55.8
Dantley career 2pt%: 54.0
Jokic career 2pt%: 60.4

In the playoffs Hakeem’s percentage jumps to 53%.

People remember stuff when the lights are the brightest, in the playoffs, when narratives are built.

1995: David Robinson wins MVP, is 4th in DPOTY voting, has home court advantage as the 1st seed against a 6th seed. Hakeem drops 35 ppg on him on 56% shooting as the Rockets win in 6.

I think it’s really the highlights of Hakeem lighting up David Robinson that show how great he was. The average person doesn’t care if another player shot better during regular season games.

But even then...that narrative ignored the actual game where Hakeem was getting single covered while Robinson was getting doubled. The joys of having Rodman on your team...

[bonita_the_frog]

The 3 most entertaining post-up players of all-time-
1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Julius Randle

[rilamann]

Anyone who uses the word overrated in the same sentence with the name Hakeem Olajuwon.

Obviously never seen Hakeem Olajuwon play.

[dhsilv2]

And the 1995 NBA Finals was largely a wash between Shaq and Hakeem:

viewtopic.php?t=2370986

The 1995 Finals featured an epic big man duel between young Shaquille O'Neal and Hakeem Olajuwon. This is my tracking of the two big men in the series and how they fared against each other.



For much of the series, the two men guarded each other. In fact, for most of the time they were on the floor, they were matched up unless one of them was in foul trouble. In those instances, Orlando used Horace Grant on Hakeem and Houston used Charles Jones on Shaq. On a few possessions, both Hakeem and Shaq were switched onto other smaller players who contested them.

Apart from shooting, the tracking also includes fouls drawn and turnovers but I only included turnovers caused by the other player. For example, if Hakeem drew a charge on Shaq or stripped Shaq of the ball, I counted those but if Shaq threw a bad pass that got intercepted by Kenny Smith, I didn't count that.



Game 1: Orlando 118 - 120 Houston (OT)

Shaq: +6 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: -7 ON, +9 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 90 - 77 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 19 points, 7/12 shooting, 5/7 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 19 points, 8/17 shooting, 3/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 1 turnover



Game 2: Orlando 106 - 117 Houston

Shaq: -3 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: +5 ON, +6 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 92 - 93 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 8/15 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 18 points, 8/19 shooting, 2/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 3: Houston 106 - 103 Orlando

Shaq: +1 ON, -4 OFF
Hakeem: +4 ON, -1 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 96 - 95 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 23 points, 10/16 shooting, 3/4 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 16 points, 7/20 shooting, 2/3 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 4: Houston 113 - 101 Orlando

Shaq: -16 ON +4 OFF
Hakeem: +15 ON -3 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 106 - 87 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 9/16 shooting, 0/0 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 17 points, 7/17 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers *one 3pt make



Series Summary

Scoring Margin: Houston +28

Shaq: -12 ON -16 OFF
Hakeem: +17 ON +11 OFF

When Both ON: Houston +7

Per 100 Possessions

Shaq ON: 111.8 ORtg, 115.2 DRtg, -3.4 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON: 115.3 ORtg, 110.5 DRtg, +4.8 Net Rtg

Shaq OFF: 89.3 ORtg, 136.9 DRtg, -47.6 Net Rtg
Hakeem OFF: 134.9 ORtg, 104.0 DRtg, +30.9 Net Rtg

Shaq ON-OFF: +44.2 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON-OFF: -26.1 Net Rtg



Series Totals - Man Defense

Hakeem
Defended by Shaq: 70 points, 44.0 %TS (30/73 FG, 9/15 FT), 10 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Grant: 42 points, 62.6 %TS (18/30 FG, 6/8 FT), 4 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 19 points, 66.3 %TS (8/13 FG, 3/3 FT), 4 fouls drawn

Shaq
Defended by Hakeem: 78 points, 59.3 %TS (34/60 FG, 10/13 FT), 13 fouls drawn, 8 turnovers
Defended by Jones: 19 points, 60.4 %TS (6/10 FG, 7/13 FT), 8 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 15 points, 67.9 %TS (4/4 FG, 7/16 FT), 9 fouls drawn



Conclusions:

In the direct matchup, Shaq got the better of Hakeem scoring more on much higher efficiency and drawing more fouls on the other. Although Hakeem forced more turnovers on Shaq than vice versa, it's hard to say that Hakeem didn't lose the matchup.

it was a contrast of styles with Shaq overwhelming Hakeem with raw strength and athleticism and Hakeem getting the better of Shaq in face up situations beating him off the dribble and with his jukes, spins, and dream shakes.

As for who was the better overall player in the series, I'd probably call it a wash. Hakeem dominated when defended by Horace Grant who is a really good defender more so than Shaq dominated Charles Jones. Hakeem also had an edge in overall team defense although Shaq was quite good in this area himself. Shaq not only did a great job defending Hakeem but he blocked more shots than Olajuwon in the series and was very active defensively.

Ultimately the play of these two monsters isn't what determined the series. Excluding Drexler and Penny who in my opinion also played each other close to a draw, the supporting cast of the Rockets completely outplayed that of Orlando. Anderson after infamously missing the four free throws at the end of regulation in Game 1 was shook and never the same afterwards. Dennis Scott's shooting was off all series and he gave the team virtually nothing as well and since Anderson and Scott averaged around 40 mpg, that hurt the Magic a lot. On the other hand, the likes of Horry, Cassell, Elie and Kenny Smith were amazingly clutch, devastating in transition and shot the lights out from 3pt range. It was the Rockets' role players that won this series.

This is one of those examples where I just can't get behind these stats.

Even Shaq tells people that Hakeem had his number in that series, and the eye test certainly confirmed.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

I've heard him say this much more emphatically before, but this popped up.

So you don't want to accept the actual facts. But want to take the narrative of the guy who went around wrestling teammates naked, putting people's mouth guards in his butthole, and is famously bad at basketball discussions and analysis?

[druggas]

Yes dude, there are posters that haven't seen him play. Don't be naive.

Lol, there are probably a lot of posters here who weren’t even born when Hakeem retired.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2313009&p=107886657&hilit=age#p107886657

I mean this isn't even an old poll. But 89% of posters here are 30 or older. Of the 11% in the 20-29 I guess we'd need more refinement but I'd guess over half of that group given the general skew is over 25 too. Sorry but just no. People that young are on reddit or tik tok. Not a message board like this.

Hakeem last played 23 years ago.

[dhsilv2]

Lol, there are probably a lot of posters here who weren’t even born when Hakeem retired.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2313009&p=107886657&hilit=age#p107886657

I mean this isn't even an old poll. But 89% of posters here are 30 or older. Of the 11% in the 20-29 I guess we'd need more refinement but I'd guess over half of that group given the general skew is over 25 too. Sorry but just no. People that young are on reddit or tik tok. Not a message board like this.

Hakeem last played 23 years ago.

Yes, I rounded up to 25 cause I'm even that nice!

[DCasey91]

This thread further proves there's an almost fanatical-like mythology surrounding Olajuwon's post-up game. The idea that it's beyond reproach is ludicrous. I simply suggested that he may not be the undisputed greatest post player, which many do believe, but merely one of the best. I think that's a fairly reasonable stance given the data, game footage, and scouting reports.

He may not be the undisputed greatest post player ever, but I don’t think people really count Shaq as a great post move player. Shaq turned around and dunked on people, which isn’t really a “post-move.”

Barkley scored a lot on fast breaks, offensive rebounds, and driving to the basket, which aren’t post moves.

Jokic passes a lot from the post, which isn’t a post-move.

If there was a 1-on-1 tournament where players started with the ball in the post and could only do post moves, I believe Hakeem would win.

Shaq was no doubt an ATG post player (way better than Wilt imo).

No one his size should move like that, threw slick dimes on a number of occasions, super comfortable in the post. Embiid for comparison sh*ts himself whereas Shaq is as comfortable as a waiter taking a smoke break lol

He only needed 3 moves but fundementally it was sound. Different players but Shaq was ludicrous

And yes I'm counting everything in the post as post play which it should be.

[cupcakesnake]

And the 1995 NBA Finals was largely a wash between Shaq and Hakeem:

viewtopic.php?t=2370986

The 1995 Finals featured an epic big man duel between young Shaquille O'Neal and Hakeem Olajuwon. This is my tracking of the two big men in the series and how they fared against each other.



For much of the series, the two men guarded each other. In fact, for most of the time they were on the floor, they were matched up unless one of them was in foul trouble. In those instances, Orlando used Horace Grant on Hakeem and Houston used Charles Jones on Shaq. On a few possessions, both Hakeem and Shaq were switched onto other smaller players who contested them.

Apart from shooting, the tracking also includes fouls drawn and turnovers but I only included turnovers caused by the other player. For example, if Hakeem drew a charge on Shaq or stripped Shaq of the ball, I counted those but if Shaq threw a bad pass that got intercepted by Kenny Smith, I didn't count that.



Game 1: Orlando 118 - 120 Houston (OT)

Shaq: +6 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: -7 ON, +9 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 90 - 77 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 19 points, 7/12 shooting, 5/7 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 19 points, 8/17 shooting, 3/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 1 turnover



Game 2: Orlando 106 - 117 Houston

Shaq: -3 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: +5 ON, +6 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 92 - 93 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 8/15 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 18 points, 8/19 shooting, 2/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 3: Houston 106 - 103 Orlando

Shaq: +1 ON, -4 OFF
Hakeem: +4 ON, -1 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 96 - 95 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 23 points, 10/16 shooting, 3/4 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 16 points, 7/20 shooting, 2/3 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 4: Houston 113 - 101 Orlando

Shaq: -16 ON +4 OFF
Hakeem: +15 ON -3 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 106 - 87 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 9/16 shooting, 0/0 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 17 points, 7/17 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers *one 3pt make



Series Summary

Scoring Margin: Houston +28

Shaq: -12 ON -16 OFF
Hakeem: +17 ON +11 OFF

When Both ON: Houston +7

Per 100 Possessions

Shaq ON: 111.8 ORtg, 115.2 DRtg, -3.4 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON: 115.3 ORtg, 110.5 DRtg, +4.8 Net Rtg

Shaq OFF: 89.3 ORtg, 136.9 DRtg, -47.6 Net Rtg
Hakeem OFF: 134.9 ORtg, 104.0 DRtg, +30.9 Net Rtg

Shaq ON-OFF: +44.2 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON-OFF: -26.1 Net Rtg



Series Totals - Man Defense

Hakeem
Defended by Shaq: 70 points, 44.0 %TS (30/73 FG, 9/15 FT), 10 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Grant: 42 points, 62.6 %TS (18/30 FG, 6/8 FT), 4 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 19 points, 66.3 %TS (8/13 FG, 3/3 FT), 4 fouls drawn

Shaq
Defended by Hakeem: 78 points, 59.3 %TS (34/60 FG, 10/13 FT), 13 fouls drawn, 8 turnovers
Defended by Jones: 19 points, 60.4 %TS (6/10 FG, 7/13 FT), 8 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 15 points, 67.9 %TS (4/4 FG, 7/16 FT), 9 fouls drawn



Conclusions:

In the direct matchup, Shaq got the better of Hakeem scoring more on much higher efficiency and drawing more fouls on the other. Although Hakeem forced more turnovers on Shaq than vice versa, it's hard to say that Hakeem didn't lose the matchup.

it was a contrast of styles with Shaq overwhelming Hakeem with raw strength and athleticism and Hakeem getting the better of Shaq in face up situations beating him off the dribble and with his jukes, spins, and dream shakes.

As for who was the better overall player in the series, I'd probably call it a wash. Hakeem dominated when defended by Horace Grant who is a really good defender more so than Shaq dominated Charles Jones. Hakeem also had an edge in overall team defense although Shaq was quite good in this area himself. Shaq not only did a great job defending Hakeem but he blocked more shots than Olajuwon in the series and was very active defensively.

Ultimately the play of these two monsters isn't what determined the series. Excluding Drexler and Penny who in my opinion also played each other close to a draw, the supporting cast of the Rockets completely outplayed that of Orlando. Anderson after infamously missing the four free throws at the end of regulation in Game 1 was shook and never the same afterwards. Dennis Scott's shooting was off all series and he gave the team virtually nothing as well and since Anderson and Scott averaged around 40 mpg, that hurt the Magic a lot. On the other hand, the likes of Horry, Cassell, Elie and Kenny Smith were amazingly clutch, devastating in transition and shot the lights out from 3pt range. It was the Rockets' role players that won this series.

This is one of those examples where I just can't get behind these stats.

Even Shaq tells people that Hakeem had his number in that series, and the eye test certainly confirmed.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

I've heard him say this much more emphatically before, but this popped up.

Lol yes, if Shaq said something, end of discussion. He's the bastion of truth and analysis.

[NZB2323]

Hakeem career 2pt%: 51.6
Kareem career 2pt%: 55.6
Shaq career 2pt%: 58.0
Wilt career 2pt%: 53.8
Barkley career 2pt%: 57.8
McHale career 2pt%: 55.8
Dantley career 2pt%: 54.0
Jokic career 2pt%: 60.4

In the playoffs Hakeem’s percentage jumps to 53%.

People remember stuff when the lights are the brightest, in the playoffs, when narratives are built.

1995: David Robinson wins MVP, is 4th in DPOTY voting, has home court advantage as the 1st seed against a 6th seed. Hakeem drops 35 ppg on him on 56% shooting as the Rockets win in 6.

I think it’s really the highlights of Hakeem lighting up David Robinson that show how great he was. The average person doesn’t care if another player shot better during regular season games.

But even then...that narrative ignored the actual game where Hakeem was getting single covered while Robinson was getting doubled. The joys of having Rodman on your team...

Sure, but Hakeem went up against DRob, Ewing, and Shaq and beat them all. McHale had Bird setting him up, Kareem had Oscar/Magic, Malone had Stockton, ect.

I’d still take Hakeem over anyone else in a 1 vs. 1 post game.

[dhsilv2]

In the playoffs Hakeem’s percentage jumps to 53%.

People remember stuff when the lights are the brightest, in the playoffs, when narratives are built.

1995: David Robinson wins MVP, is 4th in DPOTY voting, has home court advantage as the 1st seed against a 6th seed. Hakeem drops 35 ppg on him on 56% shooting as the Rockets win in 6.

I think it’s really the highlights of Hakeem lighting up David Robinson that show how great he was. The average person doesn’t care if another player shot better during regular season games.

But even then...that narrative ignored the actual game where Hakeem was getting single covered while Robinson was getting doubled. The joys of having Rodman on your team...

Sure, but Hakeem went up against DRob, Ewing, and Shaq and beat them all. McHale had Bird setting him up, Kareem had Oscar/Magic, Malone had Stockton, ect.

I’d still take Hakeem over anyone else in a 1 vs. 1 post game.

I like how we all keep moving the topic a bit and doing so imo mostly fairly.

1 v 1 in the post I do like Hakeem, but how do we get into the post? So they have someone doing an entry pass and do they get to body for position? Cause I love Shaq in that example. Set starting point? I'm thinking Kareem and Hakeem are up there. McHale would be great too.

2 on 2 where our big man can ONLY post up? Well now I'm taking Jokic because post passing is just as important imo to this topic. But clearly you don't see that as even part of it. Again, just how we read and answer the question without more of a prompt.

[DCasey91]

But even then...that narrative ignored the actual game where Hakeem was getting single covered while Robinson was getting doubled. The joys of having Rodman on your team...

Sure, but Hakeem went up against DRob, Ewing, and Shaq and beat them all. McHale had Bird setting him up, Kareem had Oscar/Magic, Malone had Stockton, ect.

I’d still take Hakeem over anyone else in a 1 vs. 1 post game.

I like how we all keep moving the topic a bit and doing so imo mostly fairly.

1 v 1 in the post I do like Hakeem, but how do we get into the post? So they have someone doing an entry pass and do they get to body for position? Cause I love Shaq in that example. Set starting point? I'm thinking Kareem and Hakeem are up there. McHale would be great too.

2 on 2 where our big man can ONLY post up? Well now I'm taking Jokic because post passing is just as important imo to this topic. But clearly you don't see that as even part of it. Again, just how we read and answer the question without more of a prompt.

After watching playoffs since 1980 the answer isn't so simple because of Hakeems personal tree. Heck ì didn't find Drexler as beneficial as could have been but that's neither here nor there. Rewind it back I'm very much in favour of Horry getting more of the pill over Elle/Maxwell/Smith dude was the best passer but also the best shooter and because shooting was of the utmost importance it got divy upped. But now today there isn't a problem

Also it's harder to gauge Jokic vs the rest. Because Hakeems outstanding (frankly GOAT) post man defence, Ewing, DROB and Shaq himself (who showed excellent results routinely). That's a gauntlet of post defenders that matchup perfectly. It's obviously going be harder in 1vs 1 stakes because he cannot just exert physical pressure.

But if answering by this. Jokic from half court in, Shaq in close, Mchale in close Hakeem in between elbow and in. But once again whoever has the ball the majority of time is going to play a huge factor here.

But I'll say it again it isn't as clear with Hakeem due to circumstance. Under Rudy's system he came on leaps and bounds from beginning to his prime. The scoring was already there but the logjam of a system was arse until he took over.

Frankly if you want a hot take it's a stark contrast to Duncan. Because he was so fundementally perfect he didn't go any further up imo. I'll always say if anything older (closer to a person's prime age) is definitely overrated offensively.

[bledredwine]

And the 1995 NBA Finals was largely a wash between Shaq and Hakeem:

viewtopic.php?t=2370986

This is one of those examples where I just can't get behind these stats.

Even Shaq tells people that Hakeem had his number in that series, and the eye test certainly confirmed.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

I've heard him say this much more emphatically before, but this popped up.

Lol yes, if Shaq said something, end of discussion. He's the bastion of truth and analysis.

lol yes. When it comes to his own ego and admitting someone dominated him, then chances are, yes, they actually dominated him.

But you know, realgm on and off stats must prevail over that and actually witnessing it all, right?

[indiegrind]

No, it wasn't overrated. He had the best post game in basketball history.

This.