RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[michaelm]

Kevin Love averaged 26 13 and 10 and had a PER of 27 before joining Cleveland.
That's Lebron's career PER, by the way.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Lmao at "Kevin Love averaged 26 13 and 10". This is example #30 of bledredwine being wrong yet again. I've never seen a poster so chronically wrong. The confidence you display while being wrong is the best part.

You are this young? I didn't realize.

Here.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

Look at the T wolves season. I figured you were old enough to have been around to see K Love dominate. I feel bad for ever bashing you now.

At that time, he was infamous for putting up 20 point 20 rebound games. That's how dominant he was prior to the Cavs.
If you are a high schooler, my bad (seriously).

Reached the same conclusion.

[michaelm]

Gee, you're telling me they didn't intend on putting together a team with a ton of injuries? This whole time I thought their intent was for their players to get injured come playoff time.

As I have said, you really don’t get irony, or sarcasm for that matter.

My point concerned how the players under discussion were regarded when they were chosen. If they did not work out as well as expected that is hardly Michael Jordan’s problem, nor imo reason for you guys to complain about Scottie Pippen’s ability, durability and fit with Jordan as you do.

You pay your money and you take your choice.

One of my all time favourite movies which I watched and appreciated well before that line became an internet/social media meme.

[ScrantonBulls]

Kevin Love averaged 26 13 and 10 and had a PER of 27 before joining Cleveland.
That's Lebron's career PER, by the way.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Lmao at "Kevin Love averaged 26 13 and 10". This is example #30 of bledredwine being wrong yet again. I've never seen a poster so chronically wrong. The confidence you display while being wrong is the best part.

You are this young? I didn't realize.

Here.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

Look at the T wolves season. I figured you were old enough to have been around to see K Love dominate. I feel bad for ever bashing you now.

At that time, he was infamous for putting up 20 point 20 rebound games. That's how dominant he was prior to the Cavs.
If you are a high schooler, my bad (seriously).

Lol at claiming your statline intended to include both defensive rebounds and total rebounds. Sure thing. Everybody knows when you give a 3 number statline, it includes points, defensive rebounds and total rebounds

That one belongs in my signature with your other "masterpiece"

[bledredwine]

Lmao at "Kevin Love averaged 26 13 and 10". This is example #30 of bledredwine being wrong yet again. I've never seen a poster so chronically wrong. The confidence you display while being wrong is the best part.

You are this young? I didn't realize.

Here.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

Look at the T wolves season. I figured you were old enough to have been around to see K Love dominate. I feel bad for ever bashing you now.

At that time, he was infamous for putting up 20 point 20 rebound games. That's how dominant he was prior to the Cavs.
If you are a high schooler, my bad (seriously).

Lol at claiming your statline intended to include both defensive rebounds and total rebounds. Sure thing. Everybody knows when you give a 3 number statline, it includes points, defensive rebounds and total rebounds

That one belongs in my signature with your other "masterpiece"

Ah, so that's what you were harping on. Yes, see, that's another example of a typo.
Obviously, everyone knows Love didn't have 13 assists per game.

But he did average 26 and 13 with a PER of 26.9, once again, Lebron's career average. So my point stands. Yes, he was an excellent player before he teamed up with Lebron, like it or not.

[ScrantonBulls]

You are this young? I didn't realize.

Here.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

Look at the T wolves season. I figured you were old enough to have been around to see K Love dominate. I feel bad for ever bashing you now.

At that time, he was infamous for putting up 20 point 20 rebound games. That's how dominant he was prior to the Cavs.
If you are a high schooler, my bad (seriously).

Lol at claiming your statline intended to include both defensive rebounds and total rebounds. Sure thing. Everybody knows when you give a 3 number statline, it includes points, defensive rebounds and total rebounds

That one belongs in my signature with your other "masterpiece"

Ah, so that's what you were harping on. Yes, see, that's another example of a typo.
Obviously, everyone knows Love didn't have 13 assists per game.

But he did average 26 and 13 with a PER of 26.9, once again, Lebron's career average. So my point stands. Yes, he was an excellent player before he teamed up with Lebron, like it or not.

A typo is when you spell a word wrong. You also claimed the statement in my signature was a "typo". Typing out blatantly incorrect sentences aren't typos. It's you being wildly incorrect once again. Seems to happen with you quite often on here.

[lessthanjake]

Vucevic was 6th in VORP, 9th in BPM in 2018-19, and in 2020-21 when playing for Orlando and the last 1/3 of the season with the Bulls, he was 6th in VORP, 13th in BPM (he looked a whole lot better before joining the Bulls). So did the Bulls acquire a top tier star, possibly a superstar?

Vucevic isn’t even close in terms of what the data tells us.

As an initial matter, 9th in BPM and 2nd in BPM are very different things.

For another thing, you’ll notice I listed a lot of metrics, while you listed only one (VORP is just a cumulative version of BPM—they’re the same stat). That’s for good reason—a player can look much better in one stat than others, and vice versa. It’s better to take a holistic approach and look across multiple metrics, in order to get the best picture of reality. I did that with Kevin Love and it was very consistent that he was a superstar. And notice that, on the flip side, I didn’t just say Chris Bosh was 4th in PER in 2010 and therefore a superstar, but rather included that measure along with the measures Bosh did worse in and came to a conclusion that data indicated he was a borderline all-NBA player rather than superstar.

So what does all the data I listed say about Vucevic? Well, in 2019, Vucevic was 9th in BPM, 9th in PER, 19th in WS/48, 14th in EPM, 21st in RAPTOR, 12th in LEBRON, and 22nd in all-NBA voting. In 2021, Vucevic was 13th in BPM, 18th in PER, 59th in WS/48, 39th in EPM, 95th in RAPTOR, 80th in LEBRON, and 27th in all-NBA voting.

To compare again, in 2014, Kevin Love was 2nd in BPM, 3rd in PER, 4th in WS/48, 5th in EPM, 5th in RAPTOR, 6th in LEBRON, and 8th in all-NBA voting.

So yeah, these aren’t even remotely similar. Vucevic does not look like a superstar in the data (more like an all-star and borderline all-NBA guy one year, and not even that the other year you mentioned, which is when he actually went to Chicago). Kevin Love does look like a superstar in the data. And that’s becase Kevin Love was a superstar, and Vucevic was not.

Bottom line is they both had seasons that were outliers and vastly outperformed their typical seasons. Vucevic wasn't a true star despite putting up star output those seasons, and Kevin Love was a true superstar. Vucevic was an absolute disappointment when he came to the Bulls. Despite those great 2 seasons (with 2019 being clearly his greatest) he wasn't very conducive to winning. Dude was a bum with the Bulls.

Kevin Love put up monster stats but no freaking chance was he a superstar. He was the poster boy for putting up huge stats on a team that couldn't even sniff the playoffs or a positive record.

But Love’s 2014 season wasn’t an outlier! I’ve already explained how his data looked almost as good in his last healthy season before that. In 2012, he’d been ranked 6th in BPM, 5th in PER, 7th in WS/48, was 6th in MVP voting, and 8th in all-NBA voting. And, at age 25 in 2014, there was every reason to believe he was going to continue his ascent or at least stay just as good for a few years. While Vucevic may have had an outlier season, Love had what looked like a very normal superstar trajectory before he joined with LeBron.

[f4p]

Kevin Love 6 seasons before joining LeBron plus the 4 after LeBron left. 0 playoff games (!!) and 0 playoff series wins. Eventually made finals as minor role player.

Bosh 7 seasons before LeBron and 1 after. 11 playoff games and 0 playoff series wins (team was 9th seed when he got blood clots in 2015 so I'm pretty sure they weren't winning a playoff series).

Kyrie 3 seasons before LeBron and 6 seasons after. 22 playoff games and 2 series wins, one as a 3rd option with the nets. Did make finals with best playoff defense and Luka doncic.

Wade obviously won a championship but 4 seasons before LeBron and 4 seasons after, 42 playoff games and 1 series win against the mighty Charlotte hornets averaging 19 PPG.

AD 7 seasons before LeBron, 13 playoff games and 1 series win.


That's 42 surrounding seasons with 88 playoff games and 4 series wins. That's like 3 NBA careers worth of seasons in the years surrounding LeBron and pathetically few series wins and and very few playoff games. Let's even cut out the 8 seasons where guys were under the drinking age or were over 35. 34 seasons with 4 playoff series wins. In the period most relevant to their time with LeBron. And of course with Lebron they made the finals the first 9 seasons they played with him and won 54 combined series.

[bledredwine]

Kevin Love 6 seasons before joining LeBron plus the 4 after LeBron left. 0 playoff games (!!) and 0 playoff series wins. Eventually made finals as minor role player.

Bosh 7 seasons before LeBron and 1 after. 11 playoff games and 0 playoff series wins (team was 9th seed when he got blood clots in 2015 so I'm pretty sure they weren't winning a playoff series).

Kyrie 3 seasons before LeBron and 6 seasons after. 22 playoff games and 2 series wins, one as a 3rd option with the nets. Did make finals with best playoff defense and Luka doncic.

Wade obviously won a championship but 4 seasons before LeBron and 4 seasons after, 42 playoff games and 1 series win against the mighty Charlotte hornets averaging 19 PPG.

AD 7 seasons before LeBron, 13 playoff games and 1 series win.


That's 42 surrounding seasons with 88 playoff games and 4 series wins. That's like 3 NBA careers worth of seasons in the years surrounding LeBron and pathetically few series wins and and very few playoff games. Let's even cut out the 8 seasons where guys were under the drinking age or were over 35. 34 seasons with 4 playoff series wins. In the period most relevant to their time with LeBron. And of course with Lebron they made the finals the first 9 seasons they played with him and won 54 combined series.

Oh come on. AD was one of the best players in the league and just as good as Lebron in the finals.

People are bringing up Kevin Love’s lack of playoff success when he was only five years into the league and on the timberwolves as well.

Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving in the east after cleveland had a chance to tank is a super team for sure.

And then there’s Luka Doncic, Chris Bosh, Dwyane Wade (almost had only one chip with Wade Bosh which is crazy, by the way).

Problem is he’s mitigated nearly every star player he’s played with.

[ReggiesKnicks]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2467474

[michaelm]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2467474

Yes OKC are the present rather than the past.

[ReggiesKnicks]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2467474

Yes OKC are the present rather than the past.

Huh?

[ScrantonBulls]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2467474

Yes OKC are the present rather than the past.

Huh?

I'd say this is one of his most sensible posts yet.

[Jamaaliver]

[Kawaii Leonard]

Lol at the scoring titles

[bledredwine]

Lol at the scoring titles

and championships, finals mvps, mvps, and defensive player of the year award.

Leading the league in scoring ten times isn’t trivial. It’s a statement in dominance. Who else did this, Wilt maybe?

[GiggitySmalls]

So there are some out there who say LeBron in the GOAT. If that is the case how does steph as as many rings and thr game changed because of is playstyle? Leading to other guards and even bigs trying his play style. Steph invented the 3 pt era in the "LeBron era" while winning 4 titles and losing less then LeBron in the finals. Nobody is trying to do what LeBron does but almost every team is trying to have a golden state steph curry 3 pt based offense. The was no era in the Jordan era it was Jordan and he is the reason many all time greats are ringless. LeBron gave out 6 rings while only getting 4 in what 22 or 23 years? How is there a valid GOAT argument for him? Make it make sense to me please. Steph changed the game. Nobody is waiting for him to retire. Same cant be said about LeBron.

Sent from my SM-S936U using RealGM mobile app

[PistolPeteJR]

Just wiki “team sport” and let people enjoy their 4th of July.

[HEKTOR]

There shouldn't be a GOAT argument for Lebron but people will try to make one. Lebron is better than Curry but Steph was able to get an extra 2 after stacking the deck with KD. Either way, neither guy was as good and/or dominant as the real GOAT - MJ.

[Kawaii Leonard]

Lol at the scoring titles

and championships, finals mvps, mvps, and defensive player of the year award.

Leading the league in scoring ten times isn’t trivial. It’s a statement in dominance. Who else did this, Wilt maybe?

Listen, Jordan is my goat too. I’ll argue, however, that it’s far closer than either of you fanatical fanboys/haters—on your 4 limbs—continue to bicker about. Tiring is an overstatement in these type of threads. You are using scoring titles for a shoot-first SG vs. a pass-first Point Forward and it is archaic at best. You’re embarrassing yourself for even trying to use that as an angle.



The blue trend line tells us on avg, how many shots an NBA player should take to score a certain number of pts in their career. But the real story is about the residuals, and those are the gaps between what the model expected a player to shoot vs what they actually shot and if we’re taking a closer look:



We see Lebron sits well below the regression line, that means he took over 1300 fewer shots than what the model expected of him, so he didn’t just break the all-time scoring record by showing up. He broke it by outperforming expectations for 2 decades. Kareem sits right at the regression line so he performed basically as he was expected. Now we go to Michael Jordan, who took over 1500 more shots than what was expected from him. Volume. Greatest volume scorer ever, but nonetheless. Lebron showing that below the regression tells you that he broke the system and it’s not just about longevity but greatness that lasted.

So yes, LOL at that image with those scoring titles. How about we start talking about the other 2 boxscore counters in Assists and Rebounds? Or have an objective discussion about individual vs. team success in that pic or the fact that he was robbed of his DPOY to Marc who wasn’t even an all-def player that year? Jordan forced statkeepers hands in home games to inflate his defensive stats and also had the best whistle of all-time from refs. His influence and story-line is unmatched, however.

[bledredwine]

Lol at the scoring titles

and championships, finals mvps, mvps, and defensive player of the year award.

Leading the league in scoring ten times isn’t trivial. It’s a statement in dominance. Who else did this, Wilt maybe?

Listen, Jordan is my goat too. I’ll argue, however, that it’s far closer that either of you fanatical fanboys/haters—on your 4 limbs—continue to bicker about. Tiring is an overstatement in these type of threads. You are using scoring titles for a shoot-first SG vs. a pass-first Point Forward and it is archaic at best. You’re embarrassing yourself for even trying to use that as an angle.



The blue trend line tells us on avg, how many shots an NBA player should take to score a certain number of pts in their career. But the real story is about the residuals, and those are the gaps between what the model expected a player to shoot vs what they actually shot and if we’re taking a closer look:



We see Lebron sits well below the regression line, that means he took over 1300 fewer shots than what the model expected of him, so he didn’t just break the all-time scoring record by showing up. He broke it by outperforming expectations for 2 decades. Kareem sits right at the regression line so he performed basically as he was expected. Now we go to Michael Jordan, who took over 1500 more shots than what was expected from him. Lebron showing that below the regression tells you that he broke the system and it’s not just about longevity but greatness that lasted.

So yes, LOL at that image with those scoring titles. How about we start talking about the other 2 boxscore counters in Assists and Rebounds? Or have an objective discussion about individual vs. team success in that pic or the fact that he was robbed of his DPOY to Marc who wasn’t even an all-def player that year? Jordan forced statkeepers hands in home games to inflate his defensive stats and also had the best whistle of all-time from refs. His influence and story-line is unmatched, however.

Those graphs mean nothing and if as a scorer you consider it close, then you are definitely a fan of lebron, period.

If we judge scoring alone, it’s not remotely close. Jordan had a high clip from everywhere on the court other than the three point line. It was automatic. Ten scoring titles says it all.

Lebron is no KD, let alone Jordan.

You homers who think it’s distant between him and kobe are hilarious. That’s the close comparison. You’ll see after lebron retires and the fans (aside from mods) eventually leave. Thats how it works.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.