Welcome to Orlando, Tyus Jones

[SloNick Russia]

Draft strategy is different for every team status. Rebuilding teams draft for potential in order to find core stars to develop, quality teams draft for fit and immidiate impact.
Cole was a fine college player from a top program. And he is a solid pro, just not starter material.

Sent from my SM-S928B using RealGM mobile app

[JF5]

I don’t want to turn a positive Tyus thread into a Weltman thread but you had to do an “I told you so” so here we are.

That's fine, but you didn't necessarily didn't have to respond to to my post. So here we are...

And no, you are incorrect with what my “problem” was. It was never “win-now” moves. It was balancing moves with the future in mind. You know.. before you start handing out max contracts like they’re candy. I’ve explained this in detail to you and you disregard it entirely.

They did try to balance it out with the veteran presence whilst also having internal development. It just was in KCP, which obviously didn't work out.

The only max contract they've handed out so far was Franz,

and here was your response to the signing last year

As much as I love Franz the guy has to step up his game at this contract. Can’t just be a guy that cuts to the basket and plays above average defense.

Now you did later say in the later post that were in the talent allocation phase, which I agreed with. But this is where we break and I make my point later on.

Using OKC as an example is kind of hilarious because their draft selections were so successful that they could make 3 moves to convince starters to become role players due to how great the team was on both sides of the floor. Not the case at all with Orlando. That’s comparing apples to oranges.

OKC Signed 2 High Level Off Ball Role Players in 2024:
Isaiah Hartensten
Alex Caruso

Magic Sign 1 High Level Off Ball Role play in 2024:
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope

The only difference here

1. OKC's team got better
2. Outside of Franz and Paolo, the rest of the team regressed
3. One more player was added
4. Magic Injuries to their Core players at different parts of the season

OKC hasn't overhauled their team at any point over the last few years in the SGA era. Pretty much 80-85% of where they are now was internal development

Tyus Jones should have been a move 3 seasons ago if we are being real. People here still defended keeping Fultz up until the very last minute development or asset value be damned. This is the first offseason where we don’t have 5 players on the roster here prior to the core existing at all.

They didn't want to add Tyus Jones because any On-Ball handler (Also, not a point of attack defender) would've stood in the way when it comes to the Development of the core when it comes to Paolo, Franz, J.Suggs, and even Black. Did OKC try to add any On-Ball handlers to take away from Alexander, Jalen Williams, or Chet?

This goes back to what you said last year about Franz and look where he is now. It just didn't work out the same way they thought it would For Suggs or Black.

Also, lets not act like you didn't want Tyus Jones to be the Starter here for 3+ years. He's gone to 2 other teams and he's looked like the back-up PG that he is. For the Magic to reach the next level they needed more than just an at best 6th man to make this team better. And they got an All-Star caliber player in Bane to be the 3rd guy.

We will still have fans like yourself make justifications as to why it’s absolutely crucial Jonathan Isaac and Wendell Carter need to be here by any means necessary. Weltman just couldn’t justify Cole or Gary anymore thank god.

I like how you keep bringing this up, since i've agreed with you these guys need to be moved. It's just about getting the right players to replace them. Bizarre at this point.

I’m not “upset” about the Bane move or this move. It was necessary given the circumstances with where the team landed. Now, could other decisions have been made prior that would have made it possible without 4 future firsts? Absolutely. But that’s what happens if you don’t make decisions for 4 years and draft Cole over a guy like Bane. Sure, you could make the argument that “it’s just the draft it’s a crapshoot” but it all adds up anyway in the end. Refusing to make decisions on the fringes compounds that if you miss on those kinds of picks routinely.

This point is just really incoherent. They should've made moves that should've not costed them assets now?

Like that's the point I'm making with the OKC model where literally developed/hit on all of their essential core guys/rotation player except for 2 (IH an Caruso) this previous season. Which is absolutely unheard of. That's the only way that you avoid paying a crap ton of money for guys who are mediocre or bog down your cap situation.

Usually you have have a core group of players (1-3 guys) THEN you have to figure the complimentary role players through Free-agency and Trades. OKC was really fortunate on how everything has worked out for them as they haven't had to give up really anything substantial to be where they are now.

Weltman has done well this offseason with what he’s had. But to say “I told you so haters” is kind of funny considering it dismisses every other stupid move, or indecision, up to a month ago because he made a high stakes move for once when he couldn’t afford not to.

We'll agree to disagree on this. Usually when you have your Star guy or guys identified it takes 3-4 years for the GM to build around them. You'll see that in most rebuilds. So he did it in a timely fashion that fits the timeline. If he came out at the end of this season and said, we're keeping this roster it would've been a problem. But its clear there was a plan.

[eyriq]

Also what I'm basically trying to say is Cole is a perfectly acceptable talent level player for 15. It just sucks we basically lost the coin flip evaluation of a way better player in Maxey.

What I consider TRUE misses are things like Minnesota whiffing twice on Curry or picks like Ayton or the Fultz/Tatum trade.

I agree with what you're saying. I had Cole near "do not draft" coming into that draft, but based off of where he was picked and his actual production it is hard to say he was a bust.

I get being upset about missing on better players that go later, but I mean by that logic you could have a perfectly solid #1 pick like Cade or something, but a Jokic goes in the 2nd. Did you suddenly do bad at #1 because of that?

Cole pick could have been way better, but wasn't terrible. I mean that is the case with most picks made by everyone though. Even if you hit, someone probably did better than you later in the draft, it's really hard to know. You just keep trying and hope you do better than average as a whole and maybe luck into a star occasionally too.

Looking back at the Cole draft, I think this was a landmark moment for Jeff. 2017 (D-), 2018 (F), and 2019 (D) all represent the long-boi philosophy where length, wingspan, and switchability were prioritized, with catastrophic costs. Starting with Cole the draft philosophy clearly shifted towards basketball IQ, on-ball creation, two-way impact, and high character. I actually think Cole deserves a B grade. His VORP and WS are respectable for a 15th pick, and while the opportunity cost is significant given we missed on Maxey and Bane he gave us some good years and was part of the package for Bane. So kudos to him.

Jeff has been crushing drafts ever since this pivot and I'd love to understand the behind the scenes activity that led to this pivot.

[magik9113]

You got to plan better bro…I’m going NEXT week

I got invited to concert on June 25th (months ago) but I caught it in time (draft night) to decline…priorities!

Nice, man! what part(s) you visiting?
I do my best to follow the offseason news when I’m here…this made my already amazing summer even better for sure. Been wanting this guy for a few seasons now

Pretty epic trip..my wife is a big tennis player, so she and her friends are going to Wimbledon. I'm coming later and meeting for a day in London, then Venice, Milan and, primarily, trains all over Switzerland...very excited.

*I figure this is ok to post since Tyus Jones thread has already degraded into "Bamba sucks" draft analysis

Dope enjoy

Bamba does indeed suck

[VFX]

Spoiler:

I don’t want to turn a positive Tyus thread into a Weltman thread but you had to do an “I told you so” so here we are.

That's fine, but you didn't necessarily didn't have to respond to to my post. So here we are...

And no, you are incorrect with what my “problem” was. It was never “win-now” moves. It was balancing moves with the future in mind. You know.. before you start handing out max contracts like they’re candy. I’ve explained this in detail to you and you disregard it entirely.

1.They did try to balance it out with the veteran presence whilst also having internal development. It just was in KCP, which obviously didn't work out.

The only max contract they've handed out so far was Franz,

and here was your response to the signing last year

As much as I love Franz the guy has to step up his game at this contract. Can’t just be a guy that cuts to the basket and plays above average defense.

Now you did later say in the later post that were in the talent allocation phase, which I agreed with. But this is where we break and I make my point later on.

Using OKC as an example is kind of hilarious because their draft selections were so successful that they could make 3 moves to convince starters to become role players due to how great the team was on both sides of the floor. Not the case at all with Orlando. That’s comparing apples to oranges.

2.OKC Signed 2 High Level Off Ball Role Players in 2024:
Isaiah Hartensten
Alex Caruso

Magic Sign 1 High Level Off Ball Role play in 2024:
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope

The only difference here

1. OKC's team got better
2. Outside of Franz and Paolo, the rest of the team regressed
3. One more player was added
4. Magic Injuries to their Core players at different parts of the season

OKC hasn't overhauled their team at any point over the last few years in the SGA era. Pretty much 80-85% of where they are now was internal development

Tyus Jones should have been a move 3 seasons ago if we are being real. People here still defended keeping Fultz up until the very last minute development or asset value be damned. This is the first offseason where we don’t have 5 players on the roster here prior to the core existing at all.

3.They didn't want to add Tyus Jones because any On-Ball handler (Also, not a point of attack defender) would've stood in the way when it comes to the Development of the core when it comes to Paolo, Franz, J.Suggs, and even Black. Did OKC try to add any On-Ball handlers to take away from Alexander, Jalen Williams, or Chet?

This goes back to what you said last year about Franz and look where he is now. It just didn't work out the same way they thought it would For Suggs or Black.

Also, lets not act like you didn't want Tyus Jones to be the Starter here for 3+ years. He's gone to 2 other teams and he's looked like the back-up PG that he is. For the Magic to reach the next level they needed more than just an at best 6th man to make this team better. And they got an All-Star caliber player in Bane to be the 3rd guy.

We will still have fans like yourself make justifications as to why it’s absolutely crucial Jonathan Isaac and Wendell Carter need to be here by any means necessary. Weltman just couldn’t justify Cole or Gary anymore thank god.

4.I like how you keep bringing this up, since i've agreed with you these guys need to be moved. It's just about getting the right players to replace them. Bizarre at this point.

I’m not “upset” about the Bane move or this move. It was necessary given the circumstances with where the team landed. Now, could other decisions have been made prior that would have made it possible without 4 future firsts? Absolutely. But that’s what happens if you don’t make decisions for 4 years and draft Cole over a guy like Bane. Sure, you could make the argument that “it’s just the draft it’s a crapshoot” but it all adds up anyway in the end. Refusing to make decisions on the fringes compounds that if you miss on those kinds of picks routinely.

5.This point is just really incoherent. They should've made moves that should've not costed them assets now?

Like that's the point I'm making with the OKC model where literally developed/hit on all of their essential core guys/rotation player except for 2 (IH an Caruso) this previous season. Which is absolutely unheard of. That's the only way that you avoid paying a crap ton of money for guys who are mediocre or bog down your cap situation.

6.Usually you have have a core group of players (1-3 guys) THEN you have to figure the complimentary role players through Free-agency and Trades. OKC was really fortunate on how everything has worked out for them as they haven't had to give up really anything substantial to be where they are now.

Weltman has done well this offseason with what he’s had. But to say “I told you so haters” is kind of funny considering it dismisses every other stupid move, or indecision, up to a month ago because he made a high stakes move for once when he couldn’t afford not to.

We'll agree to disagree on this. Usually when you have your Star guy or guys identified it takes 3-4 years for the GM to build around them. You'll see that in most rebuilds. So he did it in a timely fashion that fits the timeline. If he came out at the end of this season and said, we're keeping this roster it would've been a problem. But its clear there was a plan.

You just couldn't help yourself.

1. They didn't "ADD veteran presence". Signing KCP in season 4 was the first real move they made since drafting Paolo. They had Carter, Isaac, Gary, Cole, etc etc etc as holdovers before they drafted their core. Unless you are going to tell me that 1 season each of Bol Bol or Joe Ingles were future moves. Yeah KCP didn't work out. The ONE actual decision they made in 4 seasons. Holding onto every other player isn't a future decision. Why pay all these players for YEARS instead of attempting once to find their replacements that made more sense with guys you are undoubtedly going to pay with huge contracts? The draft is no longer an option for starting talent.

2. They didn't sign Caruso. They traded Giddey for him. Thats an inconvenient misstep you've made in your argument. That is also something Weltman has failed to do up to this season in his tenure. OKC drafted, developed, and moved off Giddey for Caruso to round out their roster. Weltman has let every other asset walk post Vuc trade and pre Bane trade in the core era window. That's my entire argument here. Zero moves on the fringes and no balance for multiple seasons. The other thing you wont mention here is trading multiple assets for an expiring Gordon Hayward in order to make cap room for these other moves up to this season like signing Hartenstein.

3. Yes they did add ball handlers. They added Cason Wallace, who plays more minutes per game than Chet does. Turns out when you draft good players with skillsets that translate you don't need to sign players instead. In terms of Orlando this makes zero sense as an argument because we had the Fultz experiment here playing 20+ minutes per game up until 2024. They also drafted AB who was considered a playmaker coming out of the draft. So lets not act like there haven't been players here that have had the ball in their hands outside of those 3 players. That's just a bad argument to make when they should have actually been attempting to find a competent one.

4. I've literally argued with you here multiple times about Wendell Carter and how important he is to this team. Same thing with Fultz I believe, but I could be wrong about that. People here have zero problem paying Paolo's 15mpg backup $15m or 3 Centers a good chunk of cap space rather than allocating that money elsewhere or consolidating it in other areas. It has only become a reality now in 2025. Isaac was making ungodly money, prior to his deal, while barely playing basketball.

5. Revisit the Giddy trade. Revisit how many picks they spent on prospects over the last 4-5 years and how they've cycled through them season to season experimenting with skillsets to match their investments. Revisit the Gordan Hayward trade for cap. You are arguing for a blueprint you don't really have an accurate comparison for or assessment. Their roster wasn't shaped purely through 1 major high risk decision. Its also more extensive than "hey we drafted really well and its all internal development".

6. This is what I have been saying... We are now at Suggs,Franz, and finally Paolo reaching their first large contracts. We are now met with cap realities. Weltman made 1 high risk move in 4 years to make sense of the roster weaknesses with this in mind. He tested nothing in terms of trying different systems around those players except for adding KCP, which didn't work. He tried to alleviate those realities through the draft with AB and Jett. Also didn't work.

So when you say: Weltman has essentially shut everybody up. Seems to show that hes pretty good at his job. I will laugh. He has done 1 year of a 5 year rebuild job through the draft since trading Vucevic. I'll give you that.

ANYWAY. I'm glad he signed TYUS JONES. The roster has a legitimate backup point guard that can protect the ball and create looks for offense.

[drsd]

ANYWAY. I'm glad he signed TYUS JONES. The roster has a legitimate backup point guard that can protect the ball and create looks for offense.

Tre Mann, Charlotte Hornets agree to three-year, $24 million deal
Duncan Robinson, Detroit Pistons agree to three-year, $48 million deal
Dennis Schroder, Sacramento Kings agree to three-year, $45 million deal
Luke Kennard, Atlanta Hawks agree to one-year, $11 million deal
Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Atlanta Hawks agree to four-year, $62 million deal
Caris LeVert, Detroit Pistons agree to two-year, $29 million deal
Ty Jerome, Memphis Grizzlies agree to three-year, $28 million deal
Tre Jones, Chicago Bulls agree to three-year, $24 million deal
Dorian Finney-Smith, Houston Rockets agree to four-year, $53 million deal




Tyus Jones' one-year, $7 million deal seems like a steal.

[GelbeWand09]

ANYWAY. I'm glad he signed TYUS JONES. The roster has a legitimate backup point guard that can protect the ball and create looks for offense.

Tre Mann, Charlotte Hornets agree to three-year, $24 million deal
Duncan Robinson, Detroit Pistons agree to three-year, $48 million deal
Dennis Schroder, Sacramento Kings agree to three-year, $45 million deal
Luke Kennard, Atlanta Hawks agree to one-year, $11 million deal
Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Atlanta Hawks agree to four-year, $62 million deal
Caris LeVert, Detroit Pistons agree to two-year, $29 million deal
Ty Jerome, Memphis Grizzlies agree to three-year, $28 million deal
Tre Jones, Chicago Bulls agree to three-year, $24 million deal
Dorian Finney-Smith, Houston Rockets agree to four-year, $53 million deal




Tyus Jones' one-year, $7 million deal seems like a steal.

In case Jerome plays anywhwere near last year, he is by far the best contract. Thats highly eff. 6th man of the year like impact for under 10 Mio. a year.

[jezzerinho]

Spoiler:

I don’t want to turn a positive Tyus thread into a Weltman thread but you had to do an “I told you so” so here we are.

That's fine, but you didn't necessarily didn't have to respond to to my post. So here we are...

And no, you are incorrect with what my “problem” was. It was never “win-now” moves. It was balancing moves with the future in mind. You know.. before you start handing out max contracts like they’re candy. I’ve explained this in detail to you and you disregard it entirely.

1.They did try to balance it out with the veteran presence whilst also having internal development. It just was in KCP, which obviously didn't work out.

The only max contract they've handed out so far was Franz,

and here was your response to the signing last year

As much as I love Franz the guy has to step up his game at this contract. Can’t just be a guy that cuts to the basket and plays above average defense.

Now you did later say in the later post that were in the talent allocation phase, which I agreed with. But this is where we break and I make my point later on.

Using OKC as an example is kind of hilarious because their draft selections were so successful that they could make 3 moves to convince starters to become role players due to how great the team was on both sides of the floor. Not the case at all with Orlando. That’s comparing apples to oranges.

2.OKC Signed 2 High Level Off Ball Role Players in 2024:
Isaiah Hartensten
Alex Caruso

Magic Sign 1 High Level Off Ball Role play in 2024:
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope

The only difference here

1. OKC's team got better
2. Outside of Franz and Paolo, the rest of the team regressed
3. One more player was added
4. Magic Injuries to their Core players at different parts of the season

OKC hasn't overhauled their team at any point over the last few years in the SGA era. Pretty much 80-85% of where they are now was internal development

Tyus Jones should have been a move 3 seasons ago if we are being real. People here still defended keeping Fultz up until the very last minute development or asset value be damned. This is the first offseason where we don’t have 5 players on the roster here prior to the core existing at all.

3.They didn't want to add Tyus Jones because any On-Ball handler (Also, not a point of attack defender) would've stood in the way when it comes to the Development of the core when it comes to Paolo, Franz, J.Suggs, and even Black. Did OKC try to add any On-Ball handlers to take away from Alexander, Jalen Williams, or Chet?

This goes back to what you said last year about Franz and look where he is now. It just didn't work out the same way they thought it would For Suggs or Black.

Also, lets not act like you didn't want Tyus Jones to be the Starter here for 3+ years. He's gone to 2 other teams and he's looked like the back-up PG that he is. For the Magic to reach the next level they needed more than just an at best 6th man to make this team better. And they got an All-Star caliber player in Bane to be the 3rd guy.

We will still have fans like yourself make justifications as to why it’s absolutely crucial Jonathan Isaac and Wendell Carter need to be here by any means necessary. Weltman just couldn’t justify Cole or Gary anymore thank god.

4.I like how you keep bringing this up, since i've agreed with you these guys need to be moved. It's just about getting the right players to replace them. Bizarre at this point.

I’m not “upset” about the Bane move or this move. It was necessary given the circumstances with where the team landed. Now, could other decisions have been made prior that would have made it possible without 4 future firsts? Absolutely. But that’s what happens if you don’t make decisions for 4 years and draft Cole over a guy like Bane. Sure, you could make the argument that “it’s just the draft it’s a crapshoot” but it all adds up anyway in the end. Refusing to make decisions on the fringes compounds that if you miss on those kinds of picks routinely.

5.This point is just really incoherent. They should've made moves that should've not costed them assets now?

Like that's the point I'm making with the OKC model where literally developed/hit on all of their essential core guys/rotation player except for 2 (IH an Caruso) this previous season. Which is absolutely unheard of. That's the only way that you avoid paying a crap ton of money for guys who are mediocre or bog down your cap situation.

6.Usually you have have a core group of players (1-3 guys) THEN you have to figure the complimentary role players through Free-agency and Trades. OKC was really fortunate on how everything has worked out for them as they haven't had to give up really anything substantial to be where they are now.

Weltman has done well this offseason with what he’s had. But to say “I told you so haters” is kind of funny considering it dismisses every other stupid move, or indecision, up to a month ago because he made a high stakes move for once when he couldn’t afford not to.

We'll agree to disagree on this. Usually when you have your Star guy or guys identified it takes 3-4 years for the GM to build around them. You'll see that in most rebuilds. So he did it in a timely fashion that fits the timeline. If he came out at the end of this season and said, we're keeping this roster it would've been a problem. But its clear there was a plan.

You just couldn't help yourself.

1. They didn't "ADD veteran presence". Signing KCP in season 4 was the first real move they made since drafting Paolo. They had Carter, Isaac, Gary, Cole, etc etc etc as holdovers before they drafted their core. Unless you are going to tell me that 1 season each of Bol Bol or Joe Ingles were future moves. Yeah KCP didn't work out. The ONE actual decision they made in 4 seasons. Holding onto every other player isn't a future decision. Why pay all these players for YEARS instead of attempting once to find their replacements that made more sense with guys you are undoubtedly going to pay with huge contracts? The draft is no longer an option for starting talent.

2. They didn't sign Caruso. They traded Giddey for him. Thats an inconvenient misstep you've made in your argument. That is also something Weltman has failed to do up to this season in his tenure. OKC drafted, developed, and moved off Giddey for Caruso to round out their roster. Weltman has let every other asset walk post Vuc trade and pre Bane trade in the core era window. That's my entire argument here. Zero moves on the fringes and no balance for multiple seasons. The other thing you wont mention here is trading multiple assets for an expiring Gordon Hayward in order to make cap room for these other moves up to this season like signing Hartenstein.

3. Yes they did add ball handlers. They added Cason Wallace, who plays more minutes per game than Chet does. Turns out when you draft good players with skillsets that translate you don't need to sign players instead. In terms of Orlando this makes zero sense as an argument because we had the Fultz experiment here playing 20+ minutes per game up until 2024. They also drafted AB who was considered a playmaker coming out of the draft. So lets not act like there haven't been players here that have had the ball in their hands outside of those 3 players. That's just a bad argument to make when they should have actually been attempting to find a competent one.

4. I've literally argued with you here multiple times about Wendell Carter and how important he is to this team. Same thing with Fultz I believe, but I could be wrong about that. People here have zero problem paying Paolo's 15mpg backup $15m or 3 Centers a good chunk of cap space rather than allocating that money elsewhere or consolidating it in other areas. It has only become a reality now in 2025. Isaac was making ungodly money, prior to his deal, while barely playing basketball.

5. Revisit the Giddy trade. Revisit how many picks they spent on prospects over the last 4-5 years and how they've cycled through them season to season experimenting with skillsets to match their investments. Revisit the Gordan Hayward trade for cap. You are arguing for a blueprint you don't really have an accurate comparison for or assessment. Their roster wasn't shaped purely through 1 major high risk decision. Its also more extensive than "hey we drafted really well and its all internal development".

6. This is what I have been saying... We are now at Suggs,Franz, and finally Paolo reaching their first large contracts. We are now met with cap realities. Weltman made 1 high risk move in 4 years to make sense of the roster weaknesses with this in mind. He tested nothing in terms of trying different systems around those players except for adding KCP, which didn't work. He tried to alleviate those realities through the draft with AB and Jett. Also didn't work.

So when you say: Weltman has essentially shut everybody up. Seems to show that hes pretty good at his job. I will laugh. He has done 1 year of a 5 year rebuild job through the draft since trading Vucevic. I'll give you that.

ANYWAY. I'm glad he signed TYUS JONES. The roster has a legitimate backup point guard that can protect the ball and create looks for offense.

+1 million.

Make no mistake, I'm excited for the Magic's future, but to believe we have anything better than a mediocre GM is a fallacy.

This year's moves have been expensive, have come later than they should and have largely undone several previous bad decisions by the same people.

Have they been "good" moves? Sure. Absolutely. But I agree with those that think we could have been so much further ahead.

[BadMofoPimp]

Here is my formal apology to you Mr. Weltman. You killed it this summer.

Need a keep Weltman thread!

[magicfan217]

Not sure why this thread turned into a discourse of our GM....

Anyway, It looks like our crunch with the 2nd apron/cap comes next year. I am sure that's why we on'y did a 1 year deal with Jones because we are going to be up against it pretty hard next summer. Does anyone know exactly what that's going to look like?

[thelead]

Here is my formal apology to you Mr. Weltman. You killed it this summer.

Need a keep Weltman thread!

Need a Mo contract first.

[eyriq]

Not sure why this thread turned into a discourse of our GM....

Anyway, It looks like our crunch with the 2nd apron/cap comes next year. I am sure that's why we on'y did a 1 year deal with Jones because we are going to be up against it pretty hard next summer. Does anyone know exactly what that's going to look like?

Weltman winning feels like a personal affront to posters who’ve staked their egos on his failure.

[Knightro]

Not sure why this thread turned into a discourse of our GM....

Anyway, It looks like our crunch with the 2nd apron/cap comes next year. I am sure that's why we on'y did a 1 year deal with Jones because we are going to be up against it pretty hard next summer. Does anyone know exactly what that's going to look like?

Weltman winning feels like a personal affront to posters who’ve staked their egos on his failure.

They haven’t won anything yet.

[BadMofoPimp]

Not sure why this thread turned into a discourse of our GM....

Anyway, It looks like our crunch with the 2nd apron/cap comes next year. I am sure that's why we on'y did a 1 year deal with Jones because we are going to be up against it pretty hard next summer. Does anyone know exactly what that's going to look like?

Weltman winning feels like a personal affront to posters who’ve staked their egos on his failure.

Reminds me of Henny losing feels like a personal affront to posters who’ve staked their egos on his Success.

[magicfan217]

Weltman's tenure his some hits and misses..like most GM's. I am glad we don't have one of the worst GM's but clearly our front office probably falls somewhere in the middle. The posturing around the Paolo draft was very well done. Weltman played his cards right and I think would have traded down until it was obvious that Houston was going to draft Paolo. I think there were plenty of draft misses during the heart of the rebuild when we were still hunting for stars. Such is life. It could certainly be way worse (I am looking at you, New Orleans).

I think NOW is when you judge Weltman. He's finally pushed his chips in and this is our team. Is it good enough? We will see!

[magicfan217]

By the way I couldn't love the Tyus Jones signing more. Perfect fit! I wish the deal was longer than 1 year but I am sure that has to do with our cap situation next summer.

[Knightro]

Read on Twitter

Zach Lowe is on board.

[BadMofoPimp]

Spoiler:

That's fine, but you didn't necessarily didn't have to respond to to my post. So here we are...



1.They did try to balance it out with the veteran presence whilst also having internal development. It just was in KCP, which obviously didn't work out.

The only max contract they've handed out so far was Franz,

and here was your response to the signing last year



Now you did later say in the later post that were in the talent allocation phase, which I agreed with. But this is where we break and I make my point later on.



2.OKC Signed 2 High Level Off Ball Role Players in 2024:
Isaiah Hartensten
Alex Caruso

Magic Sign 1 High Level Off Ball Role play in 2024:
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope

The only difference here

1. OKC's team got better
2. Outside of Franz and Paolo, the rest of the team regressed
3. One more player was added
4. Magic Injuries to their Core players at different parts of the season

OKC hasn't overhauled their team at any point over the last few years in the SGA era. Pretty much 80-85% of where they are now was internal development



3.They didn't want to add Tyus Jones because any On-Ball handler (Also, not a point of attack defender) would've stood in the way when it comes to the Development of the core when it comes to Paolo, Franz, J.Suggs, and even Black. Did OKC try to add any On-Ball handlers to take away from Alexander, Jalen Williams, or Chet?

This goes back to what you said last year about Franz and look where he is now. It just didn't work out the same way they thought it would For Suggs or Black.

Also, lets not act like you didn't want Tyus Jones to be the Starter here for 3+ years. He's gone to 2 other teams and he's looked like the back-up PG that he is. For the Magic to reach the next level they needed more than just an at best 6th man to make this team better. And they got an All-Star caliber player in Bane to be the 3rd guy.



4.I like how you keep bringing this up, since i've agreed with you these guys need to be moved. It's just about getting the right players to replace them. Bizarre at this point.



5.This point is just really incoherent. They should've made moves that should've not costed them assets now?

Like that's the point I'm making with the OKC model where literally developed/hit on all of their essential core guys/rotation player except for 2 (IH an Caruso) this previous season. Which is absolutely unheard of. That's the only way that you avoid paying a crap ton of money for guys who are mediocre or bog down your cap situation.

6.Usually you have have a core group of players (1-3 guys) THEN you have to figure the complimentary role players through Free-agency and Trades. OKC was really fortunate on how everything has worked out for them as they haven't had to give up really anything substantial to be where they are now.



We'll agree to disagree on this. Usually when you have your Star guy or guys identified it takes 3-4 years for the GM to build around them. You'll see that in most rebuilds. So he did it in a timely fashion that fits the timeline. If he came out at the end of this season and said, we're keeping this roster it would've been a problem. But its clear there was a plan.

You just couldn't help yourself.

1. They didn't "ADD veteran presence". Signing KCP in season 4 was the first real move they made since drafting Paolo. They had Carter, Isaac, Gary, Cole, etc etc etc as holdovers before they drafted their core. Unless you are going to tell me that 1 season each of Bol Bol or Joe Ingles were future moves. Yeah KCP didn't work out. The ONE actual decision they made in 4 seasons. Holding onto every other player isn't a future decision. Why pay all these players for YEARS instead of attempting once to find their replacements that made more sense with guys you are undoubtedly going to pay with huge contracts? The draft is no longer an option for starting talent.

2. They didn't sign Caruso. They traded Giddey for him. Thats an inconvenient misstep you've made in your argument. That is also something Weltman has failed to do up to this season in his tenure. OKC drafted, developed, and moved off Giddey for Caruso to round out their roster. Weltman has let every other asset walk post Vuc trade and pre Bane trade in the core era window. That's my entire argument here. Zero moves on the fringes and no balance for multiple seasons. The other thing you wont mention here is trading multiple assets for an expiring Gordon Hayward in order to make cap room for these other moves up to this season like signing Hartenstein.

3. Yes they did add ball handlers. They added Cason Wallace, who plays more minutes per game than Chet does. Turns out when you draft good players with skillsets that translate you don't need to sign players instead. In terms of Orlando this makes zero sense as an argument because we had the Fultz experiment here playing 20+ minutes per game up until 2024. They also drafted AB who was considered a playmaker coming out of the draft. So lets not act like there haven't been players here that have had the ball in their hands outside of those 3 players. That's just a bad argument to make when they should have actually been attempting to find a competent one.

4. I've literally argued with you here multiple times about Wendell Carter and how important he is to this team. Same thing with Fultz I believe, but I could be wrong about that. People here have zero problem paying Paolo's 15mpg backup $15m or 3 Centers a good chunk of cap space rather than allocating that money elsewhere or consolidating it in other areas. It has only become a reality now in 2025. Isaac was making ungodly money, prior to his deal, while barely playing basketball.

5. Revisit the Giddy trade. Revisit how many picks they spent on prospects over the last 4-5 years and how they've cycled through them season to season experimenting with skillsets to match their investments. Revisit the Gordan Hayward trade for cap. You are arguing for a blueprint you don't really have an accurate comparison for or assessment. Their roster wasn't shaped purely through 1 major high risk decision. Its also more extensive than "hey we drafted really well and its all internal development".

6. This is what I have been saying... We are now at Suggs,Franz, and finally Paolo reaching their first large contracts. We are now met with cap realities. Weltman made 1 high risk move in 4 years to make sense of the roster weaknesses with this in mind. He tested nothing in terms of trying different systems around those players except for adding KCP, which didn't work. He tried to alleviate those realities through the draft with AB and Jett. Also didn't work.

So when you say: Weltman has essentially shut everybody up. Seems to show that hes pretty good at his job. I will laugh. He has done 1 year of a 5 year rebuild job through the draft since trading Vucevic. I'll give you that.

ANYWAY. I'm glad he signed TYUS JONES. The roster has a legitimate backup point guard that can protect the ball and create looks for offense.

+1 million.

Make no mistake, I'm excited for the Magic's future, but to believe we have anything better than a mediocre GM is a fallacy.

This year's moves have been expensive, have come later than they should and have largely undone several previous bad decisions by the same people.

Have they been "good" moves? Sure. Absolutely. But I agree with those that think we could have been so much further ahead.

I disagree with the "Later" concept as the team rose to the level they could and now added the player they needed to take it up a notch. It was never imperative to bring in a player like Bane earlier. KCP was just a bad signing not that he didn't provide value for this team but wasn't what this team needed to take it to the next level like Weltman hoped. At least with Bane, they got a younger solid player.

[VFX]

I’m glad Zach Lowe is on board. Not surprised.

It isn’t lost on me how tongue in cheek his comments are on this signing. I’m sure it went over everyone’s heads.

[Knightro]

Tyus is basically CoJo on steroids. And that’s a good thing.

The offense looked much better last year with nothing more than Cory’s rudimentary “dribble the ball up, initiate the halfcourt sets, don’t turn the ball over, hit an open catch and shoot three” style.

Tyus is like the best guy in the league at that style.