Players who can be argued for Top 5 of all time

[iggymcfrack]

Really Wilt and Bird have NO case for top 5? Really NO case? and KG does that's just F'ed up.

Bird doesn’t have a top 10 peak, has worse longevity than almost any other contender, and only has 3 rings. What’s the case?

Wilt played in a weak era with the rules tilted toward centers on some of the most stacked super teams of all-time and only won 2 rings. He got traded for peanuts twice and didn’t make either new team better. He also once led a team to an 11-33 record before getting traded. What’s the case?

I don't agree. Regardless of Bird or Wilt. You lose ALL credibility with the KG pick. WTF

Again, if you go by impact stats which are the most reliable single indicator we have and have been available for almost half of the modern NBA, KG’s the 2nd best player there’s been. That’s a case! I didn’t say he is top 5, I said he has a case.

My top 5 is still Bron, MJ, Dream, Timmy, Cap

[ballzboyee]

Lakers didn't even make it out of the first round in 2007 while the Spurs won the NBA finals. How did the Lakers destroy the Spurs in 2007?

You know what I meant. Lakers 4-1'd prime Duncan's Spurs with Kobe dropping 30ppg on 59 ts%. No Shaq. In any case, here is a FUN FACT: Kobe had the better series scoring averages over both Shaq and Duncan in 2004. Was the leading scoring in the 2003 series and was the Lakers leading scorer 2002 when Lakers bounced the Spurs again. Kobe was also the leading scorer over Duncan and Shaq when the Lakers swept the Spurs in 2001. The whole Shaq carried Kobe is such a lazy argument. In 2001, Kobe dropped 33/7/7 on .571 ts%. He was easily the best player in the series.

Like I said, if Duncan has an argument for top five all-time, then so does Kobe.

Duncan won championships in 3 different decades, and Duncan’s supporting cast in 2003 was worse than any supporting cast Kobe ever had winning a championship.

Sure, Kobe averaged 4 more points in the 2003 series. Duncan had 7 more rebounds, 1 more assist, was more efficient, and had 5.4 higher GmSc, and Shaq had a 5.3 higher GmSc than Kobe.

But let’s compare finals stats:

Kobe: 25, 6, and 5, 50.7 TS%
Duncan: 21, 13, and 3, 53.8 TS%

Duncan has a bigger impact on the defense than Kobe, and the biggest weakness of box score stats is they do a poor job of capturing defensive impact.

Duncan also has more MVPs, finals MVPs, Win Shares, and playoff Win Shares than Kobe. The only metric Kobe is ahead is PPG.

Duncan is such an odd case of wishcasting hyperbolic greatness on a player so irrationally that it hurts my head. He was the third or fourth best player on his team in 2014. Didn't win Finals MVP. Got beat out for Finals MVP again in his prime in 2007. Both guys that beat him out are HOF players. It is actually very funny how he gets almost all the credit for his team's success when his career began and evolved in a very similar fashion to Kobe's, but during the backend of Duncan's career he enjoyed a much easier path due to juggernaut Spurs organization which kept churning out HOF player after player. Right out of the gate he was drafted to a team with a HOF coach and a HOF center, and much like Kobe he immediately won a championship early in his career. Yet Duncan somehow receives practically all the credit for the 1999 'ship even though Robinson finished ahead of him in DPOY voting and arguably outplayed him in the WCF. It's like David Robinson a former MVP, DPOY, and Scoring Champ was just some nobody out there and Gregg Popovich deserves no credit at all. If a post-Shaq Kobe had been beaten out for Finals MVP in his prime or been the third or fourth best player on the Lakers in a championship run, you would never hear the end of it. However, Duncan fans just wishcast all of this away and out of nowhere stealth insert their guy into the top five all-time. It's pure gaslighting. He's not a top five player, but if he is then so is Kobe.

Then Duncan fans have the gall to act like there is some huge gap between Duncan and Kobe because the Shaq-carried-Kobe narrative when they were all on the court at the same time for multiple seasons in their primes in playoff series, and Kobe demonstratively outplayed both of them repeatedly. It's right there in black and white on the box score and in the win column.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Kobe and Shaq lost to a Tim Duncan team that had a 37 year old Robinson, 20 year old Parker, and rookie Ginobili, and Duncan has better leadership, longevity, and defense than them, so it’s hard for me to put Kobe or Shaq over Duncan.

Kobe has 1 MVP and 2 Finals MVPs. His play in the 2000, 2004, and 2008 Finals wasn’t great. He’s 14th all time in VORP and 21st all time in WS.

I think most people here have Kobe and Shaq in the 8-12 range.

Kobe owned TD head 2 head during their primes. From 2000-on he only lost to the Spurs once in 2003, and was even 100% during that series, neither was Shaq. In 01, 02, 04, 08 what happened? It's like their primes were memory holed. Kobe had two different squads go to the final 3 straight times. Yeh, DRob, Parker, Manu, Bowen is such a weak cast.

You bring up VORP &WS, well does that mean you have Karl Malone and CP3 over TD all-time??? Because according to those crap stats they are

Kobe didn't go head 2 head with Duncan in the postseason until 2008. That's when he was the focal point of LA's offense and Shaq was already long gone. You can't be 2nd option and say he went H2H against the other teams first option.

Kobe was the focal point against SA in the playoffs. Shaq largely was controlled. Go look at the games

[An Unbiased Fan]

Lakers didn't even make it out of the first round in 2007 while the Spurs won the NBA finals. How did the Lakers destroy the Spurs in 2007?

You know what I meant. Lakers 4-1'd prime Duncan's Spurs with Kobe dropping 30ppg on 59 ts%. No Shaq. In any case, here is a FUN FACT: Kobe had the better series scoring averages over both Shaq and Duncan in 2004. Was the leading scoring in the 2003 series and was the Lakers leading scorer 2002 when Lakers bounced the Spurs again. Kobe was also the leading scorer over Duncan and Shaq when the Lakers swept the Spurs in 2001. The whole Shaq carried Kobe is such a lazy argument. In 2001, Kobe dropped 33/7/7 on .571 ts%. He was easily the best player in the series.

Like I said, if Duncan has an argument for top five all-time, then so does Kobe.

Duncan won championships in 3 different decades, and Duncan’s supporting cast in 2003 was worse than any supporting cast Kobe ever had winning a championship.

Sure, Kobe averaged 4 more points in the 2003 series. Duncan had 7 more rebounds, 1 more assist, was more efficient, and had 5.4 higher GmSc, and Shaq had a 5.3 higher GmSc than Kobe.

But let’s compare finals stats:

Kobe: 25, 6, and 5, 50.7 TS%
Duncan: 21, 13, and 3, 53.8 TS%

Duncan has a bigger impact on the defense than Kobe, and the biggest weakness of box score stats is they do a poor job of capturing defensive impact.

Duncan also has more MVPs, finals MVPs, Win Shares, and playoff Win Shares than Kobe. The only metric Kobe is ahead is PPG.

Kobe DESTROYED the Spurs in 2001
Kobe led like 3 straight comebacks with 10 point 4th quarters in 2002
Kobe again was too much for SA in 2004 despite the Spurs being up 2-0
Kobe beat the Spurs 4-1 with peak TD on the other side.

In their primes Kobe was 4-1 in the playoffs vs TD.

[NZB2323]

You know what I meant. Lakers 4-1'd prime Duncan's Spurs with Kobe dropping 30ppg on 59 ts%. No Shaq. In any case, here is a FUN FACT: Kobe had the better series scoring averages over both Shaq and Duncan in 2004. Was the leading scoring in the 2003 series and was the Lakers leading scorer 2002 when Lakers bounced the Spurs again. Kobe was also the leading scorer over Duncan and Shaq when the Lakers swept the Spurs in 2001. The whole Shaq carried Kobe is such a lazy argument. In 2001, Kobe dropped 33/7/7 on .571 ts%. He was easily the best player in the series.

Like I said, if Duncan has an argument for top five all-time, then so does Kobe.

Duncan won championships in 3 different decades, and Duncan’s supporting cast in 2003 was worse than any supporting cast Kobe ever had winning a championship.

Sure, Kobe averaged 4 more points in the 2003 series. Duncan had 7 more rebounds, 1 more assist, was more efficient, and had 5.4 higher GmSc, and Shaq had a 5.3 higher GmSc than Kobe.

But let’s compare finals stats:

Kobe: 25, 6, and 5, 50.7 TS%
Duncan: 21, 13, and 3, 53.8 TS%

Duncan has a bigger impact on the defense than Kobe, and the biggest weakness of box score stats is they do a poor job of capturing defensive impact.

Duncan also has more MVPs, finals MVPs, Win Shares, and playoff Win Shares than Kobe. The only metric Kobe is ahead is PPG.

Duncan is such an odd case of wishcasting hyperbolic greatness on a player so irrationally that it hurts my head. He was the third or fourth best player on his team in 2014. Didn't win Finals MVP. Got beat out for Finals MVP again in his prime in 2007. Both guys that beat him out are HOF players. It is actually very funny how he gets almost all the credit for his team's success when his career began and evolved in a very similar fashion to Kobe's, but during the backend of Duncan's career he enjoyed a much easier path due to juggernaut Spurs organization which kept churning out HOF player after player. Right out of the gate he was drafted to a team with a HOF coach and a HOF center, and much like Kobe he immediately won a championship early in his career. Yet Duncan somehow receives practically all the credit for the 1999 'ship even though Robinson finished ahead of him in DPOY voting and arguably outplayed him in the WCF. It's like David Robinson a former MVP, DPOY, and Scoring Champ was just some nobody out there and Gregg Popovich deserves no credit at all. If a post-Shaq Kobe had been beaten out for Finals MVP in his prime or been the third or fourth best player on the Lakers in a championship run, you would never hear the end of it. However, Duncan fans just wishcast all of this away and out of nowhere stealth insert their guy into the top five all-time. It's pure gaslighting. He's not a top five player, but if he is then so is Kobe.

Then Duncan fans have the gall to act like there is some huge gap between Duncan and Kobe because the Shaq-carried-Kobe narrative when they were all on the court at the same time for multiple seasons in their primes in playoff series, and Kobe demonstratively outplayed both of them repeatedly. It's right there in black and white on the box score and in the win column.

1999 playoff stats:
Duncan: 23, 12, and 3, 57.3 TS%, 25.1 PER
Robinson: 16, 10, and 3, 56.3 TS%, 23.3 PER

2007 playoff stats:
Parker: 22, 3, and 6, 52.3 TS%, 18.7 PER
Duncan: 22, 12, and 3, 55.6 TS%, 27.4 PER

Head to head playoffs:
Kobe: 28, 6, and 5, 54 TS%, 18.3 GmSc
Duncan: 25, 14, and 4, 54 TS%, 20.25 GmSc

The biggest weakness of box score stats is they do a poor job accounting for defense, where Duncan had a bigger impact. Another argument for Duncan is longevity. In 98 he was better than Kobe, and from 2013-2016 Duncan was better.

I’m not even a Duncan fan. He was a boring player and I’m a Bulls fan who liked Dirk and KG more. Kobe was certainly a more entertaining player to watch and he played for LA, which explains why he has so many fans, in addition to what he did for girls basketball and his tragic death. I’d much rather watch a movie about Kobe’s life than Duncan’s life.

[Parasite]

also no case for Wilt and Bird for me.

You could easily make a case that Bird’s prime is top-5 all time.

[The4thHorseman]

Kobe owned TD head 2 head during their primes. From 2000-on he only lost to the Spurs once in 2003, and was even 100% during that series, neither was Shaq. In 01, 02, 04, 08 what happened? It's like their primes were memory holed. Kobe had two different squads go to the final 3 straight times. Yeh, DRob, Parker, Manu, Bowen is such a weak cast.

You bring up VORP &WS, well does that mean you have Karl Malone and CP3 over TD all-time??? Because according to those crap stats they are

Kobe didn't go head 2 head with Duncan in the postseason until 2008. That's when he was the focal point of LA's offense and Shaq was already long gone. You can't be 2nd option and say he went H2H against the other teams first option.

Kobe was the focal point against SA in the playoffs. Shaq largely was controlled. Go look at the games

Still doesn't change the fact that the series was never deemed Kobe vs. Timmy, it was always Shaq vs. __________ < insert name of opposing teams best player.

[MMyhre]

LeBron, Jordan, Magic, Kareem and Russell. Thats it.

Wilt wasnt a team or winning player. Bird lost his longevity and had some offensive postseason hiccups. Shaq lost his longevity due to being a selfish, lazy egomaniac. Duncan declined pretty fast as an athlete and was never on the level of a Shaq as a 1st option either, I also think KG was a better defender overall for their careers. Hakeem lacks the continuous success - played too long with an obvious weakness (poor playmaking, ball hog) and probably questionable shot selection earlier in his career.

And the rest are either missing peak play or a better resume to be in top 5 conversation.