[Shams] Masai Ujiri is out as Vice Chairman and President of the Toronto Raptors - Part 2

[causal_fan]

I'm disappointed with the racism angle some posters have expressed - You can have an opinion that racism was a factor but I don't see any evidence supporting that point of view - Ed Rogers and Masai did not get along and Ed was opposed to Masai's expensive $15M contract and it's my opinion that Ed Rogers wanted Masai gone but that doesn't make him a racist. Ed Rogers went to court against his own family and got rid of his CEO unceremoniously so he's a prick but that doesn't make him a racist. There's racism in society but I think playing that card without evidence cheapens the brutality of racism that everyday people are subjected to.

[redraptor77]

I'm disappointed with the racism angle some posters have expressed - You can have an opinion that racism was a factor but I don't see any evidence supporting that point of view - Ed Rogers and Masai did not get along and Ed was opposed to Masai's expensive $15M contract and it's my opinion that Ed Rogers wanted Masai gone but that doesn't make him a racist. Ed Rogers went to court against his own family and got rid of his CEO unceremoniously so he's a prick but that doesn't make him a racist. There's racism in society but I think playing that card without evidence cheapens the brutality of racism that everyday people are subjected to.

Agreed that’s a dangerous thing to throw around and it diminishes the impact that word should carry
Rogers got rid of Shannahan as well
Leafs (I know they didn’t win it all ) have had a decent run last few years
It’s his view that these guys are over paid
Denver Nuggets take a similar view point on executive pay

[kleatius_01]

Anyone else slowly entering the acceptance phase?

[mihaic]

Anyone else slowly entering the acceptance phase?

While I respected Masai for the work done, he can't possibly be the only one capable to be the VP. So, there was no denial, grief or anger on my side.

Moreover Ed Rogers is not the only one who wanted Masai gone, a sizeable contingent on this board wanted it too.

[kleatius_01]

While I respected Masai for the work done, he can't possibly be the only one capable to be the VP. So, there was no denial, grief or anger on my side.

Moreover Ed Rogers is not the only one who wanted Masai gone, a sizeable contingent on this board wanted it too.

No one is arguing there arnt other top execs out there, its a question of whether we will get them. For all of the missteps the past 3 years, Masai led a top 5 league front office here for a long time before that. That success is extremely rare and will be very hard to replicate.

[mihaic]

While I respected Masai for the work done, he can't possibly be the only one capable to be the VP. So, there was no denial, grief or anger on my side.

Moreover Ed Rogers is not the only one who wanted Masai gone, a sizeable contingent on this board wanted it too.

No one is arguing there arnt other top execs out there, its a question of whether we will get them. For all of the missteps the past 3 years, Masai led a top 5 league front office here for a long time before that. That success is extremely rare and will be very hard to replicate.

Right. But as the last few years showed us, Masai may not have been able to replicate it either.

[kleatius_01]

Right. But as the last few years showed us, Masai may not have been able to replicate it either.

Fair enough. I posted on this board earlier this year that I preferred the odds of Masai regaining his form over Rogers hiring competent management. It's a moot point now, here's hoping they nail it!

[Raps Next GM]

What exactly did that "respectability" bring us? Players still constantly say they dont want to be traded here, and FAs don't sign here. What else is that respectability good for?

I said it earlier, the respectability was that we won a chip, that's it. No one looks at the Raptors as a destination, we don't need to try and fool ourselves lol. If all it takes to lose this lauded respectability, is firing a guy who has been doing an awful job for years, then it wasn't worth a damn either way.

People are so dramatic lol.

What does Zach Lowe gain from being dramatic?

As I said before, you’re too dug in to what’s in front of you. Just listen to Zach and you’ll hear how much he’s holding back on what he wants to say. This isn’t about win %s or FA. It’s about who and what this franchise aspires to be.

BTW - TFC just let go of their 2 highest paid players…

What does Zach Lowe gain from being dramatic?

As I said before, you’re too dug in to what’s in front of you. Just listen to Zach and you’ll hear how much he’s holding back on what he wants to say. This isn’t about win %s or FA. It’s about who and what this franchise aspires to be.

BTW - TFC just let go of their 2 highest paid players…

Masai garners a lot respect from top execs around the league and top agents including Klutch. Sure, players weren't rushing to sign here, but pre-Masai players were outright declining to show up, or would raise a stink if they were traded here or would bolt as soon as their contract expired. The Raps basically re-signed everyone they wanted, except for Kawhi who was a special case. It definitely can get a lot worse in terms of how we are perceived.

What exactly did that "respectability" bring us? Players still constantly say they dont want to be traded here, and FAs don't sign here. What else is that respectability good for?

I said it earlier, the respectability was that we won a chip, that's it. No one looks at the Raptors as a destination, we don't need to try and fool ourselves lol. If all it takes to lose this lauded respectability, is firing a guy who has been doing an awful job for years, then it wasn't worth a damn either way.

People are so dramatic lol.

There are levels of unrespectability.

Cool, but all of you are talking in these magical scenarios without actually answering the question.

What has it actually brought us?

TFC let go of their 2 highest paid players, ok and?

Masai garnering respect? Lillard as recently as a few months ago outright refused to show up, we have to overpay players like IQ, Kawhi left the second he could even after winning a chip. Danny Green had no interest extending/re-signing when Kawhi left, FVV walked, Siakam was publicly disrespected by Masai himself, OG made it very public he wanted out. Y'all are just in some fantasy land where you think we were some shining scion of the NBA that every franchise aspired to be.

Is Zach Lowe being dramatic, eh debatable, but he's a podcaster making a take to garner listens to one of the largest online fanbases, are we that naive? So it devolves into "who and what the franchise aspires to be", what does that even mean lmao.

You know what made this team get taken seriously? Winning. Masai is not the only exec in the NBA who can get teams to win. You guys are more than welcome to think the sky is falling with Masai gone, hate on MLSE/Rogers all you want (and I agree for the most part with this), but just because you believe it, doesn't make it true.

There is nothing tangible here, just ethereal platitudes.

Masai garners a lot respect from top execs around the league and top agents including Klutch. Sure, players weren't rushing to sign here, but pre-Masai players were outright declining to show up, or would raise a stink if they were traded here or would bolt as soon as their contract expired. The Raps basically re-signed everyone they wanted, except for Kawhi who was a special case. It definitely can get a lot worse in terms of how we are perceived.

We weren't so bad on re-signing our own before Masai, either. Basically everyone will accept top dollar but the few difference makers will choose top dollar AND location of their preference.

There are still NBA players that were born here that will have it as a dream to play here, and if Vince Carter had an impact on growing the sport in Canada I can only imagine Masai's impact. It will be tenfold. The Raptors were relevant in league standings under Masai. It's just unfortunate that he squandered his own brand by choosing to lose games. That does a lot of execs in. You get paid to win.

Exactly this, everything and anything related to respectability came with winning, and that hasn't been a thing for 5+ years.

100%!

Masai absolutely brought a level of credibility, but what exactly the benefit of that credibility has been, is hard to say.
Toronto didn’t become a desirable destination. No one demanded to be traded here. We overpaid to keep our own free agents… I don’t blame Masai for that, it’s just the reality of being based in Canada.
I think that credibility Masai brought was good, but overrated. Even before his dismissal, I read a lot of basketball media questioning the Raptors’ roster construction decisions.
I wanted Masai to continue on, but I don’t believe he is irreplaceable either. Five team presidents not named Masai Ujiri have won championships since he did. Maybe his replacement won’t construct a champion like he did, but looking at our roster, I don’t believe Masai was going to either, at least not without significant changes.

[mihaic]

Right. But as the last few years showed us, Masai may not have been able to replicate it either.

Fair enough. I posted on this board earlier this year that I preferred the odds of Masai regaining his form over Rogers hiring competent management. It's a moot point now, here's hoping they nail it!

Agreed. We all want a good team, and a good management. I am neutral at the moment: I can even find plausible reasons why Masai was let go. Vision 6ft9 for example. Nick Nurse debacle. Pascal handling. Etc.

[TimeForChange]

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[ConSarnit]

Right. But as the last few years showed us, Masai may not have been able to replicate it either.

Fair enough. I posted on this board earlier this year that I preferred the odds of Masai regaining his form over Rogers hiring competent management. It's a moot point now, here's hoping they nail it!

Agreed. We all want a good team, and a good management. I am neutral at the moment: I can even find plausible reasons why Masai was let go. Vision 6ft9 for example. Nick Nurse debacle. Pascal handling. Etc.

It’s clear they fired him over money. How do we know? The draft.

Imagine you had an employee you wanted to fire because you thought they were doing a bad job. Would you let them stick around and have input on a key project (ie. the draft)? No, you would fire them right away because you wouldn’t want them to screw things up ever further.

Masai might have deserved to be fired due to his decision making the past 3 years but that’s not why he was fired. They didn’t want to pay him anymore. That’s a bad sign for us because because that means ownership is somewhat ok with how the team has been run the past few years, as seen by keeping Masai on through the draft and retaining Bobby and Tolzman.

If the firing was performance related it makes no sense to keep Masai on until the draft (and it doesn’t make much sense to keep Webster or Tolzman).

[mihaic]

Fair enough. I posted on this board earlier this year that I preferred the odds of Masai regaining his form over Rogers hiring competent management. It's a moot point now, here's hoping they nail it!

Agreed. We all want a good team, and a good management. I am neutral at the moment: I can even find plausible reasons why Masai was let go. Vision 6ft9 for example. Nick Nurse debacle. Pascal handling. Etc.

It’s clear they fired him over money. How do we know? The draft.

Imagine you had an employee you wanted to fire because you thought they were doing a bad job. Would you let them stick around and have input on a key project (ie. the draft)? No, you would fire them right away because you wouldn’t want them to screw things up ever further.

Masai might have deserved to be fired due to his decision making the past 3 years but that’s not why he was fired. They didn’t want to pay him anymore. That’s a bad sign for us because because that means ownership is somewhat ok with how the team has been run the past few years, as seen by keeping Masai on through the draft and retaining Bobby and Tolzman.

If the firing was performance related it makes no sense to keep Masai on until the draft (and it doesn’t make much sense to keep Webster or Tolzman).

My opinion without facts: it's probably both. they assessed the ROI. They thought he was overpaid for what he did. The lack of clear direction must have rubbed them the wrong way.

I think they might have kept him till draft because they didn't want the staff involved to be worried or resentful before draft.

[Yeezus_]

Im assuming a video will eventually be out

[ATLTimekeeper]

Fair enough. I posted on this board earlier this year that I preferred the odds of Masai regaining his form over Rogers hiring competent management. It's a moot point now, here's hoping they nail it!

Agreed. We all want a good team, and a good management. I am neutral at the moment: I can even find plausible reasons why Masai was let go. Vision 6ft9 for example. Nick Nurse debacle. Pascal handling. Etc.

It’s clear they fired him over money. How do we know? The draft.

Imagine you had an employee you wanted to fire because you thought they were doing a bad job. Would you let them stick around and have input on a key project (ie. the draft)? No, you would fire them right away because you wouldn’t want them to screw things up ever further.

Masai might have deserved to be fired due to his decision making the past 3 years but that’s not why he was fired. They didn’t want to pay him anymore. That’s a bad sign for us because because that means ownership is somewhat ok with how the team has been run the past few years, as seen by keeping Masai on through the draft and retaining Bobby and Tolzman.

If the firing was performance related it makes no sense to keep Masai on until the draft (and it doesn’t make much sense to keep Webster or Tolzman).

I doubt he had much impact on the draft at all. Typically teams will make these moves either before the pre-draft process or later in the summer. The risk is Masai could go leak the board to a rival team.

fwiw, a reporter said Masai was finally told it was over June 9th. That lines up with Giannis finally saying to the media that he was going to give Milwaukee a chance (June 11). A realgm poster (Rodrickle?) said he saw Masai get on a flight to Ethiopia June 10th, where there was no draft interest, nothing NBA related at the time. The media says most of our rumours (KD, Giannis, White) came from over a month ago. Pascal won ECF MVP iirc May 31st, and a few days later the Raptors were in Jake Fischer rumours about sourcing a big fish via trade, with the pick up for sale. I think Masai knew he was in trouble when the guy he gave up on made the Finals, thought he could save his job by landing a big name. He didn't want to be negligent and overpay. He was told he would be let go and then he just was a quiet passenger for the draft process.

[anotherhomer]

Agreed. We all want a good team, and a good management. I am neutral at the moment: I can even find plausible reasons why Masai was let go. Vision 6ft9 for example. Nick Nurse debacle. Pascal handling. Etc.

It’s clear they fired him over money. How do we know? The draft.

Imagine you had an employee you wanted to fire because you thought they were doing a bad job. Would you let them stick around and have input on a key project (ie. the draft)? No, you would fire them right away because you wouldn’t want them to screw things up ever further.

Masai might have deserved to be fired due to his decision making the past 3 years but that’s not why he was fired. They didn’t want to pay him anymore. That’s a bad sign for us because because that means ownership is somewhat ok with how the team has been run the past few years, as seen by keeping Masai on through the draft and retaining Bobby and Tolzman.

If the firing was performance related it makes no sense to keep Masai on until the draft (and it doesn’t make much sense to keep Webster or Tolzman).

I doubt he had much impact on the draft at all. Typically teams will make these moves either before the pre-draft process or later in the summer. The risk is Masai could go leak the board to a rival team.

fwiw, a reporter said Masai was finally told it was over June 9th. That lines up with Giannis finally saying to the media that he was going to give Milwaukee a chance (June 11). A realgm poster (Rodrickle?) said he saw Masai get on a flight to Ethiopia June 10th, where there was no draft interest, nothing NBA related at the time. The media says most of our rumours (KD, Giannis, White) came from over a month ago. Pascal won ECF MVP iirc May 31st, and a few days later the Raptors were in Jake Fischer rumours about sourcing a big fish via trade, with the pick up for sale. I think Masai knew he was in trouble when the guy he gave up on made the Finals, thought he could save his job by landing a big name. He didn't want to be negligent and overpay. He was told he would be let go and then he just was a quiet passenger for the draft process.

That lines up

[Raps Next GM]

It’s clear they fired him over money. How do we know? The draft.

When an executive is making a reported $15 million per season, money will always be a factor, especially when he is looking to re-up and likely seeking a raise on it.
But diminishing it to simply money doesn’t make sense. If that was the case, they would have left things status quo: give Masai the final year, and say goodbye a year from now, since they’re paying him anyway.
They wouldn’t pay him AND a replacement, thereby paying two presidents, if it were strictly fiscally conservative ownership. Not to mention the raise/extension that Bobby and likely others received too. The “cheap” option would have been to leave things as they were.

If Flavour of The Month Sam Presti was available and the Raptors could hire him for what they paid Masai, they would crack open the chequebook.

But is Masai worth what he wanted going forward? Evidently, MLSE doesn’t believe so.

Imagine you had an employee you wanted to fire because you thought they were doing a bad job. Would you let them stick around and have input on a key project (ie. the draft)? No, you would fire them right away because you wouldn’t want them to screw things up ever further.

Masai might have deserved to be fired due to his decision making the past 3 years but that’s not why he was fired. They didn’t want to pay him anymore. That’s a bad sign for us because because that means ownership is somewhat ok with how the team has been run the past few years, as seen by keeping Masai on through the draft and retaining Bobby and Tolzman.

If the firing was performance related it makes no sense to keep Masai on until the draft (and it doesn’t make much sense to keep Webster or Tolzman).

It does make sense in that this wasn’t a traditional firing. Masai wasn’t going about his day and then is blindsided by his firing and having security escort him out carrying a box of his belongings. This was already underway.
Pelley said Masai asked if a change be made, that it was post-draft. It was Masai’s request.
For Masai’s faults, drafting doesn’t seem to be one. He’s a solid drafter so having his input couldn’t hurt unless you believe he would intentionally mislead them into prospects he doesn’t actually like.
Firing him pre-draft also could create unnecessary uncertainty for agents, suddenly not wanting their prospect to work out for the Raptors.

[carlosey]

Masai is tight with Obama, Ed Rogers is tight with Trump. Thats a good reference of what it comes down to.

Perhaps Masai almost celebrity status and role maybe rubs Ed the wrong way, but it was clear it was going to happen. Once Masai was first resigned, Ed was being a little baby about Masai's value and the rumor was that Masai was angry at that and considered siting a year out. New ownership new era, but this is going to be a circus of mediocrity unless Bobby is kept long term.

[mihaic]

Masai is tight with Obama, Ed Rogers is tight with Trump. Thats a good reference of what it comes down to.

Perhaps Masai almost celebrity status and role maybe rubs Ed the wrong way, but it was clear it was going to happen. Once Masai was first resigned, Ed was being a little baby about Masai's value and the rumor was that Masai was angry at that and considered siting a year out. New ownership new era, but this is going to be a circus of mediocrity unless Bobby is kept long term.

Where did u hear this rumour? I don't recall, might have missed it.

But I doubt politics (Trump/Biden-Obama) trickles into the workplace: that'd be very unusual. In most workplaces it doesn't. Let's just say it is not a reason to fire someone.

[djsunyc]

2025 okc: presti
2024 boston: brad stevens
2023 nuggets: calvin booth
2022 warriors: bob myers
2021 bucks: jon horst
2020 lakers: rob pelinka
2019 raptors: masai ujiri
2018 & 2017 & 2015 warriors: bob myers
2016 cavs: david griffin
2014 spurs: rc buford
2013 & 2012 heat: pat riley
2011 mavs: donnie nelson
2010 & 2009 lakers : mitch kupchak
2008 celtics: danny ainge
2007 & 2005 spurs: rc buford
2006 heat: pat riley
2004 pistons: joe dumars
i stopped there

i was reading an article about minorities in executive positions so i wanted to go back to see how many team execs in the nba that won titles were minorities.

going back 40 years, there were 4:

1986 kc jones
2004 joe dumars
2019 masai ujiri
2023 calvin booth

for ed rogers to call masai arrogant (aka uppity) and overpaid 1 year after winning a title is just nuts.

[Yallbecrazy]

I'm disappointed with the racism angle some posters have expressed - You can have an opinion that racism was a factor but I don't see any evidence supporting that point of view - Ed Rogers and Masai did not get along and Ed was opposed to Masai's expensive $15M contract and it's my opinion that Ed Rogers wanted Masai gone but that doesn't make him a racist. Ed Rogers went to court against his own family and got rid of his CEO unceremoniously so he's a prick but that doesn't make him a racist. There's racism in society but I think playing that card without evidence cheapens the brutality of racism that everyday people are subjected to.

If it walks like a duck...there are levels to racism, he's assuredly not Steven Miller levels of racist, but the executive team at Rogers is far more white than the average large Canadian corporation and has 0 black people on it. As per a report he assumed Masai's driver and videographer were bodyguards of his he brought to Ed's cottage (I assume they were black). He hangs out at Mara Lago with his family and a very racist Trump. I'm of the view that anyone who spends time around Trump voluntarily that isn't a spy is at least a little racist or at least extremely ignorant.
The odds definitely point to him being at least a little racist.