Rumor - kings, Pistons, warriors

[OxAndFox]

By the sounds of it with Sean Cunningham the Schroder deal is "heavily front loaded" and "low guaranteed" in the last year sounds like he is getting S&T?
What is the highest Sac TPE? $16m? Is that enough for a "heavily front loaded" deal on 3/45?

[SNPA]

I don't watch a lot of Kings games but does Devin Carter really need to be in this trade? Wasn't he only drafted last year (in the lottery)? Was he that bad?

Seems like a lot to give up who is an average player, who has only given flashes of being good.

Carter has upside. IMO Perry is looking at his assets and sees a redundancy in Keon/Carter and is looking to get value out of Carter. I’m not sure that’s a good idea. I’d want to keep both. Two way guards have value.

[squarepimpin]

This is stupid. If GSW was just going to dump JK for a nobody and a couple of 2nd rounders - then they should have just renounced him and signed a real difference maker when free agency started


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[LightTheBeam]

I don't watch a lot of Kings games but does Devin Carter really need to be in this trade? Wasn't he only drafted last year (in the lottery)? Was he that bad?

Seems like a lot to give up who is an average player, who has only given flashes of being good.

Carter has upside. IMO Perry is looking at his assets and sees a redundancy in Keon/Carter and is looking to get value out of Carter. I’m not sure that’s a good idea. I’d want to keep both. Two way guards have value.

In a perfect world I think that is our shooting guard rotation moving forward. Plenty of room for both of them. But Monte absolutely **** us with that LaVine deal on the way out the door. And for eternity we've needed a PF, the best we've gotten was Demar, Lyles, Sasha, and 3 months of LaRavia. I think we asked lots of teams about their pfs (Collins, PJ) and were told that they didn't want our guards.

If it takes Carter to get Kuminga, sucks but I get it. Kuminga is actually a year younger and a whole lot more proven. And like you said, long term Keon occupies that role. Realistically, we are projecting Nique as a 3 because our team is tiny, he's going to be able to shift between the 2/3.

Schroder - 1
Keon - 2
Nique - 2/3
Keegan - 3/4
Kuminga - 3/4
Maxime - 4/5
Sabonis - 5

Ideally Demar is gone even if its for Rozier straight. Now all you are saddled with is LaVine. We have all of our picks. If Memphis, ATL, Charlotte don't progress, we will be in a position to trade picks + LaVine for our star pg. Add another forward in FA or next years draft and you are looking like a real team again. If Perry gets this done, he will be moving way quicker than I expected.

[giberish]

This is stupid. If GSW was just going to dump JK for a nobody and a couple of 2nd rounders - then they should have just renounced him and signed a real difference maker when free agency started


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Renouncing JK wouldn't have brought GSW cap space. Just freedom to use the full MLE and BAE, but they can kind of do that now. Carter's at least a plausible rotation player (Ellis would be better - Sac never seems to fully appreciate him anyways).

[Astaluego]

Yes, I had the Kings as favorites to get Kuminga... imagine another scenario...
Portis to the WARRIORS
DDR or Monk to the BUCKS
Kuminga to the KINGS...

There would have to be other players involved for it to be legal... Micic/Saric to a 4th team ( NETS) for it to be legal, I guess.

[Coxy]

This sucks for Golden State, please lord no.

[jscott]

This sucks for Golden State, please lord no.

Classic Coxy. What are you expecting? They’d be trading a neutral/negative value contract in a S&T for a guy very few teams want.

[OxAndFox]

This is stupid. If GSW was just going to dump JK for a nobody and a couple of 2nd rounders - then they should have just renounced him and signed a real difference maker when free agency started


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What "difference maker" would you suggest the GSW are signing?

[fanforlife]

Not sure why GS would do this? I think they could get more for Kuminga. Also, Monk didn't have a great season last season and as said previously doesn't play defense. The Pistons can forego taking back salary to generate a player trade exception of $14.3 million. Perhaps this is what they should do.

[jbk1234]

Monk doesn’t make sense on our roster as constructed.

Mind you I’m biased against inefficient guards who don’t play defense.

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?s=19

Locked on pistons guy says gs holding it up. Is he legit?

Can Kuminga legally sign yet? I imagine that might be holding up the trade.

[jbk1234]

This is stupid. If GSW was just going to dump JK for a nobody and a couple of 2nd rounders - then they should have just renounced him and signed a real difference maker when free agency started


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What "difference maker" would you suggest the GSW are signing?

Horford, although Carter isn't nothing. When healthy, he played some good defense his rookie year.

[OxAndFox]

This is stupid. If GSW was just going to dump JK for a nobody and a couple of 2nd rounders - then they should have just renounced him and signed a real difference maker when free agency started


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What "difference maker" would you suggest the GSW are signing?

Horford, although Carter isn't nothing. When healthy, he played some good defense his rookie year.

That's fair. But TBH If I were the Warriors Carter is a much better player than Horford in 25/26. Even though that hurts saying that against Al.

[NW]

Would be shocked if GS did this as constructed. I doubt Lacob signs off on it. Would want more than this or just hold on to Kuminga, re-sign him and try to trade him later. No doubt GS is holding the deal up for the offer to get better.

Got no illusions of Keegan Murray or anything as a return, but at least Keon Ellis

[bpcox05]

I'd hate to lose Devin Carter. He's such a valuable archetype that is being utilized on all of these top tier playoff teams.

Defensively, he's versatile, strong, long, and very athletic. He's very switchable and he's an elite rebounder for his position. Plus, he's already a positive on the defensive end in some of the top advanced impact stats as a ROOKIE (EPM, VPM, DARKO, LEBRON, eRAPTOR). He has the tools to be one of the best defenders in this league.

Offensively, he needs to improve his shooting, but he did shoot 38% from 3 his last year in college and 39% in the g league (and he's taking a high amount of 3PAs per 36 min too). He has the elite athleticism to get by his man and attack closeouts. He's an unselfish, smart/connective passer, and his PnR game in college was excellent.

He's one of those guys that can do a bit of everything on offense while being elite defensively and elite on the boards. That's a very valuable player. He needs to be more efficient scoring/shooting the ball, certainly. But let's not forget he was a rookie last year that missed 1) training camp and 2) the majority of the season as he was rehabbing a torn labrum. I'm very excited to see how he looks this upcoming season.

Plus, considering he has elite athleticism (he tore up the combine), has great length for his position, and was very effective in the PnR in college, he has a slim chance of developing into a star as well. I wouldn't bet my house on it, but it's possible considering the tools he has and what he flashed in college. I think it's far more likely he tops out as an elite role player though.

[Onus]

I'd hate to lose Devin Carter. He's such a valuable archetype that is being utilized on all of these top tier playoff teams.

Defensively, he's versatile, strong, long, and very athletic. He's very switchable and he's an elite rebounder for his position. Plus, he's already a positive on the defensive end in some of the top advanced impact stats as a ROOKIE (EPM, VPM, DARKO, LEBRON, eRAPTOR). He has the tools to be one of the best defenders in this league.

Offensively, he needs to improve his shooting, but he did shoot 38% from 3 his last year in college and 39% in the g league (and he's taking a high amount of 3PAs per 36 min too). He has the elite athleticism to get by his man and attack closeouts. He's an unselfish, smart/connective passer, and his PnR game in college was excellent.

He's one of those guys that can do a bit of everything on offense while being elite defensively and elite on the boards. That's a very valuable player. He needs to be more efficient scoring/shooting the ball, certainly. But let's not forget he was a rookie last year that missed 1) training camp and 2) the majority of the season as he was rehabbing a torn labrum. I'm very excited to see how he looks this upcoming season.

Plus, considering he has elite athleticism (he tore up the combine), has great length for his position, and was very effective in the PnR in college, he has a slim chance of developing into a star as well. I wouldn't bet my house on it, but it's possible considering the tools he has and what he flashed in college. I think it's far more likely he tops out as an elite role player though.

I was very high on Carter as a prospect and agree with everything you’ve said. Who do you think has a higher upside between Keon and Devin?

[Nate the Great]

Saric played for the Warriors before, and he was terrible. Carter has also looked terrible so far. The Warriors don’t have to trade Kuminga if they can only get back negative value, they can just cut him.

[fanforlife]

Forget about Monk. How about somehow including Sabonis in the sign-and-trade for Schroder? The Pistons will throw in Harris and a couple unprotected first round picks. So Schroder, Harris on an expiring contract and two unprotected first round picks for Sabonis if it can be worked out.

[sackings916]

Saric played for the Warriors before, and he was terrible. Carter has also looked terrible so far. The Warriors don’t have to trade Kuminga if they can only get back negative value, they can just cut him.

Carter is coming off a rookie year where he had no training camp, no summer league, and missed most of the year to injury. Then he came back and never had a consistent role or playing time. He has potential to be an elite guard defender, way too early to say he’s negative value.

[bpcox05]

I'd hate to lose Devin Carter. He's such a valuable archetype that is being utilized on all of these top tier playoff teams.

Defensively, he's versatile, strong, long, and very athletic. He's very switchable and he's an elite rebounder for his position. Plus, he's already a positive on the defensive end in some of the top advanced impact stats as a ROOKIE (EPM, VPM, DARKO, LEBRON, eRAPTOR). He has the tools to be one of the best defenders in this league.

Offensively, he needs to improve his shooting, but he did shoot 38% from 3 his last year in college and 39% in the g league (and he's taking a high amount of 3PAs per 36 min too). He has the elite athleticism to get by his man and attack closeouts. He's an unselfish, smart/connective passer, and his PnR game in college was excellent.

He's one of those guys that can do a bit of everything on offense while being elite defensively and elite on the boards. That's a very valuable player. He needs to be more efficient scoring/shooting the ball, certainly. But let's not forget he was a rookie last year that missed 1) training camp and 2) the majority of the season as he was rehabbing a torn labrum. I'm very excited to see how he looks this upcoming season.

Plus, considering he has elite athleticism (he tore up the combine), has great length for his position, and was very effective in the PnR in college, he has a slim chance of developing into a star as well. I wouldn't bet my house on it, but it's possible considering the tools he has and what he flashed in college. I think it's far more likely he tops out as an elite role player though.

I was very high on Carter as a prospect and agree with everything you’ve said. Who do you think has a higher upside between Keon and Devin?

I love both Devin Carter and Keon Ellis but it’s easily Devin Carter in terms of upside IMO.

Ellis is the quintessential 3&D role player. He’s a great defender who gets his hands on a ton of balls and can be a defensive playmaker in that regard. He’s got great length at the guard spot and is very effective guarding 1s and 2s. Pretty good athlete but he’s not elite in this category so he can be beat off the dribble at times, but he’s pretty good at recovering due to his length and nose for the ball. His rebounding is average as well. He’s isn’t very strong which might be his biggest weakness on defense. He can be bodied and knocked off balance allowing the offensive player to get some separation. He also has tendency to pick up fouls as he can be a bit handsy at times.

Offensively, he’s a lights out shooter who averages 43% on 6.0 3PAs (per 36 min) for his CAREER. He’s one of those guys that when he shoots it, I’m surprised when it doesn’t go in. Now he’s not some advanced movement shooter like a Curry, Hield, Duncan Robinson, etc., but if he gets a look, it’s more than likely going in. He’s got an okay handle for a role player, but he’s not going to be slicing people up. He’s not an impressive passer but he plays within himself and makes the smart choice. He’s improved at attacking close outs which is important considering how deadly he is from 3.

In summary, Ellis is an elite shooter and defender who has good length at the guard spots. He’s not particularly impressive when it comes to ballhandling, passing, scoring, strength, & rebounding. He’s knows his role and plays it extremely well. Absolutely can be a starting SG on a top tier team.

When comparing him with Carter, I actually think Carter has both the higher defensive ceiling and offensive ceiling.

Defensively, Carter is much stronger than Ellis, much quicker than Ellis, and can jump much higher than Ellis. Although Carter still has a nose for the ball and can generate deflections, he does a better job at staying in front of his man and using his body to play defense (which I think will result in Carter being less foul prone than Ellis). Carter’s also a much much better rebounder than Ellis.

In short, there’s nothing Ellis can do defensively that Carter can’t, but there are things Carter can do (or could do) defensively that Ellis can’t do (or can’t do as well). And don’t get me wrong, I think Ellis is one of the best/better defenders in the league, but I could see Carter reaching Holiday/Smart/Caruso levels defensively. He has the tools to do it.

Offensively, Ellis is obviously light years ahead of Carter in terms of shooting the ball when we look at this last season, but like I mentioned previously, Carter has shown that he can knock down the 3 at a good clip in college and the g league. It’s up to him to work on making sure that transfers to the big leagues, and even if it does transfer, I never see him being the shooter Ellis is. 43% on 6.0 3PAs per 36 min is extremely hard to beat.

But it’s the other things on offense which raise his offensive ceiling for me. He’s more crafty with the ball and shows more PnR potential. He’s aggressive with the ball in his hands and taking it to the paint/rim. He’s also pretty good at drawing contact and getting to the line. He’s a better passer with better vision but also isn’t reckless with his passes. Despite playing mostly off ball (Fox, Monk, LaVine, DeRozan, Sabonis), he averaged 3.7 AST per 36 min with a 2.3 AST:TO ratio. That’s promising.

In general, Ellis is probably what he is at this point. An elite 3&D player that can’t do much other than the 3 and D part.

Carter’s defensive ceiling is higher, his rebounding ceiling is higher, his passing ceiling is higher, his scoring ceiling is higher, and his athleticism ceiling is higher. I think Caruso with more athleticism and better rebounding is a good comparison for Carter. Caruso isn’t some lights out shooter but he’s solid in that department while being an elite defender, pretty good ballhandler, pretty good passer, etc.

And like I mentioned before Carter has an outside chance at becoming a star when you consider the combination of his elite athleticism, great length/strength, ability to get to the free throw line, and his PnR play in college. Improving his shooting and ballhandling is a must if he wants to have any chance at reaching this level though.

Now although Carter has the higher ceiling, he obviously has the lower floor. If Carter continues to be a sub 30% shooter from 3, it’s going to be hard to justify playing him big minutes/starting him on a top tier team.