Bill Simmons RIPS the Raptors roster and salaries. (UPDATE Zach Lowe & Rob Mahoney go in on Raptors)

[TimeForChange]

We will always have this issue - Raptors being in Canada will have to pay a bit more in salary and incentives (i.e Player options) to entice players to come or stay here. We have this conversation every damn off-season. It is what it is.

The thing is when it comes to a guy like IQ who were we competing with? was any other team willing to give him 25 million let alone 30 million? I would rather Quick sign somewhere else than us signing this extreme overpay deal. We need to be WAY better at negotiating deals aka be cheaper like most teams in the league are doing now.

I'm shocked our management did not see this salary crunch coming this year where guys like Myles Turner gets 25/year, NAW gets 12/year, Tre Mann gets 8/year, Merrill gets 9/year, Levert 14m./year, FVV gets 25m/year, Ayton gets a mid-level, Aldama gets 17m/year, Naz Reid gets 25m/year

This was literally the off-season to sign amazing value contracts and we sign BI to 40m/year and JP to 26m/year... BI way over valued and JP maybe on value but I would rather Reid or Turner at 25

none of those players would sign in Toronto without an overpay.

Free agents don't want to come to Toronto. Why do people not get this? This has been the story since 1996

[Los_29]

The other thing is, people like Bill are still looking at the actual dollar amounts and not the % of the cap. The cap has risen significantly over the last few years. Bill acts like it's still 2008.

Salary rank, 25/26 season:
IQ - 25th among Gs
RJ - 32nd among Gs
BI - 17th among Fs
SB - 15th among Fs
JP - 14th among C's

exactly this. everyone on here looks at everything in absolute terms when the relative is what matters.

What I find most funny, is that RJ is actually our best value player (ie what he is paid compared to his production) and everybody wants to trade him

Not to mention he is still only 24, from Toronto, wants to be here, and is the most likely player of the 5 to take a home town discount. His advanced stats show him getting better every year.

Raps fans are so weird

I can’t believe on the same page I just saw you say Pritchard is better than IQ and then turn around and defend RJ by claiming his advanced stats have improved every year.

RJ is not a good fit for most teams in this league. He doesn’t have the right skillset. IQ does.

Also, I’d be curious to know which advanced stats you’re looking at.

[ItsDanger]

Our starting lineup makes $156M while Cleveland's makes $171M. You can try spinning it however you want, that isn't good value at all. Ideally, you want a cheaper role player or rookie contract in your starting 5 which can provide more room to manage salaries. That's on the management to plan that.

They negotiate poorly which allows players to dictate terms on a routine basis. And then people make weak excuses. They should really offload contract negotiations to a 3rd party, would get better results.

[HumbleRen]

The other thing is, people like Bill are still looking at the actual dollar amounts and not the % of the cap. The cap has risen significantly over the last few years. Bill acts like it's still 2008.

Salary rank, 25/26 season:
IQ - 25th among Gs
RJ - 32nd among Gs
BI - 17th among Fs
SB - 15th among Fs
JP - 14th among C's

exactly this. everyone on here looks at everything in absolute terms when the relative is what matters.

What I find most funny, is that RJ is actually our best value player (ie what he is paid compared to his production) and everybody wants to trade him

Not to mention he is still only 24, from Toronto, wants to be here, and is the most likely player of the 5 to take a home town discount. His advanced stats show him getting better every year.

Raps fans are so weird

I think RJ being Canadian has legit blinded some of you guys on his value and his actual impact to winning.

[Pointgod]

Managing your roster and salaries is the most important aspect of a GM's job outside of the more luck based art of drafting.

There is no "Toronto premium". There is a number that is acceptable for the org to provide, and there is no getting around constructing a roster without having some of those market or below contracts on your roster. There are many ways to do this (stocking up on cheap draft capital, leveraging RFA to extract concessions, trading talent at peak for bargain assets), and this FO is allergic to all of them.

When almost every part of your roster is 3 to 5+mil over market, there isn't much difference between you and the Bucks having 20mil of dead cap.

I'm sure there's a "Memphis premium", but they hit a wall on their current build and traded a piece of that core in his peak for more value than he's worth (hello FVV!); many cheap, premium assets. They don't spend Every. Single. Offseason trying to find ways to leverage their cheapest, most valuable asset, their 1st round pick (hello RJ+9!) just to pay above market somewhere else (hello BI, Thad, KO, etc!), or fix a previous trade where you also are paying a premium (hello OG trade!).

There are plenty of successful small markets who prioritize that value and don't end up in our situation for that reason.

Yeah well said. There is no such thing as a Toronto premium it’s just cope from our fanbase. Our front office has chosen to build in a particular way which has positives and negatives, but a lot of these wounds negatives are self inflicted.

I believe the front office just really overvalues players on our team and will overpay whether it’s a new contract or through trades. I think it helps from a player relationship perspective where you have an organization that’s not always trying to lowball a player but that means players need to deliver.

[OakleyDokely]

Our starting lineup makes $156M while Cleveland's makes $171M. You can try spinning it however you want, that isn't good value at all. Ideally, you want a cheaper role player or rookie contract in your starting 5 which can provide more room to manage salaries. That's on the management to plan that.

They negotiate poorly which allows players to dictate terms on a routine basis. And then people make weak excuses. They should really offload contract negotiations to a 3rd party, would get better results.

Those starter numbers are pretty meaningless. So when they trade RJ or don't re-sign him or play him off the bench and put Jakobe or Ochai into the starting lineup, the starters cost 136M. You're going to be posting about that amazing value right?

[TimeForChange]

IQ was easily the best player on the raps per EPM. Scottie and Jak were next.

RJ only had an EPM of 0.3 and was below Chris Boucher on the Raps.

[dhackett1565]

We will always have this issue - Raptors being in Canada will have to pay a bit more in salary and incentives (i.e Player options) to entice players to come or stay here. We have this conversation every damn off-season. It is what it is.

The thing is when it comes to a guy like IQ who were we competing with? was any other team willing to give him 25 million let alone 30 million? I would rather Quick sign somewhere else than us signing this extreme overpay deal. We need to be WAY better at negotiating deals aka be cheaper like most teams in the league are doing now.

We absolutely could have pushed for a 25M deal, in which case he probably signs either a 2-3 year bridge deal with us or in an offer sheet. And then we get him for cheaper for a couple years, and then either lose him or give him potentially a really big raise in a higher cap. Obviously the front office prioritized locking in his value in the long term, even if it came with a higher price tag.

There's always a reason for these choices. They don't just pay guys more for kicks.

[MiamiSPX]

exactly this. everyone on here looks at everything in absolute terms when the relative is what matters.

What I find most funny, is that RJ is actually our best value player (ie what he is paid compared to his production) and everybody wants to trade him

Not to mention he is still only 24, from Toronto, wants to be here, and is the most likely player of the 5 to take a home town discount. His advanced stats show him getting better every year.

Raps fans are so weird

I think RJ being Canadian has legit blinded some of you guys on his value and his actual impact to winning.

100%

Same reason people still pine for Wiggins when no fan of any team should actively want that guy on their team.

[brownbobcat]

Bargain Deals - Kyle Lowry - 3 year 36M deal in 2024. Both FVV and Powell's extensions ended up being huge bargains (FVV made an ASG as 57th highest paid guy)

Overpaid deals - KO, Boucher, Birch were all not overpays. Those were guys on the MLE and BLE. Completely reasonable deals for bench players. GTJ was, sure, but it also was an entirely fair deal at the time it was made

IQ is also not overpaid in the slightest. Neither is BI.

Contract value is based on a reasonable estimation of what the player is capable of currently and in the future. At the time of his 2020 extension, FVV was looking like a solid starter and not an All Star. 5 years later, I'd say he's not an All Star. Solid starters make around 15% of cap and that's what he was getting. IQ is getting paid like a borderline All Star (19% average) and he isn't that. Add the fact that he wasn't a UFA and it was definitely an overpay. Is there a Canada premium? That could be the case, but it's just as likely to be a Bobby/Masai premium.

Birch was a minimum player through and through. Paying him solid bench player money because he played well for 17 games while tanking was stupid.

You want an example of an deal that's actually great? Jaylin Williams. Well under MLE and a club option for a solid young bench player. Heck, pick virtually any non-rookie deal that OKC has.

Nope. That really is not how the cap works. Once you are over it is not "if I save a dollar here I can spend it there"

Sure you can. You can't spend it out right, but you can use the space to absorb more salary in a trade and/or make better use of trade exceptions. The Raptors don't have a single non-rookie contract where the player is massively outperforming their salary. Zero. That's a problem when you're almost an apron team and coming off a 30-win season.

[ciueli]

exactly this. everyone on here looks at everything in absolute terms when the relative is what matters.

What I find most funny, is that RJ is actually our best value player (ie what he is paid compared to his production) and everybody wants to trade him

Not to mention he is still only 24, from Toronto, wants to be here, and is the most likely player of the 5 to take a home town discount. His advanced stats show him getting better every year.

Raps fans are so weird

I think RJ being Canadian has legit blinded some of you guys on his value and his actual impact to winning.

This is exactly what I was thinking, he's an average defender at best and only a 3 point threat from the corners, his selling point is his ability to get to the line but he doesn't even shoot a good percentage from there and he needs the ball in his hands as a main option on offence to do that, it's not going to happen much when we have Scottie, Ingram, and IQ also wanting touches.

I looked around for a realistic trade that could get just expiring contracts for RJ and I didn't see many teams that would do it even if they had the right contracts. Maybe the Pelicans for CJ McCollum now that they are run by Dumars who has already made multiple bad moves even though he's been on the job for a month. Outside of that pickings are slim, I'm starting to fear the front office will need to use a future first rounder of some type to get off his money by the trade deadline.

[Dalek]

I think the best way to describe Bobby Webster is to say he is an agent's best friend. He gives guys what their agent's think they are worth and it is always at market rate or a little higher and/or includes player options.

We just don't re-sign guys on team friendly deals which is why we are paying so much for an unproven product.

Someone point out a steal of a contract since he has been GM. Eventually the generosity catches up with you and you get locked into a bad team like the Bulls.

so basically what you're saying is that Masai did nothing and Bobby did everything since 2017.

I guess Rogers was smart to fire him.

Fine. The Toronto Raptor's front office since Bobby and Masai took charge. Bobby is just a continuation of Masai's approach. I actually think Bobby probably managed most of the free agency contracts over the past few years because I don't know if Masai was as hands-on with his Board role in his last years. He probably was more engaged in the big fish hunting like Durant and Giannis, which all went nowhere.

I will say they absolutely bungled the Siakam situation as it was recently reported Bobby Webster wanted to extend him to trade him later, but Masai overruled him and we ended up with a weaker return because of it.

[YogurtProducer]

Nope. That really is not how the cap works. Once you are over it is not "if I save a dollar here I can spend it there"

Sure you can. You can't spend it out right, but you can use the space to absorb more salary in a trade and/or make better use of trade exceptions.

Still nope.

Unless you are under the cap you cant absorb salary without sending some out.

The Raptors don't have a single non-rookie contract where the player is massively outperforming their salary. Zero. That's a problem when you're almost an apron team and coming off a 30-win season.

The Raptors have a grand total of 5 such players, and you can make a strong argument that Poeltl is on a bargain of a deal.

Outside of superstars, or teams where players re-up before a huge breakout, very few contracts are "massively outperformed"

[ForeverTFC]

Nope. That really is not how the cap works. Once you are over it is not "if I save a dollar here I can spend it there"

Sure you can. You can't spend it out right, but you can use the space to absorb more salary in a trade and/or make better use of trade exceptions.

Still nope.

Unless you are under the cap you cant absorb salary without sending some out.

The Raptors don't have a single non-rookie contract where the player is massively outperforming their salary. Zero. That's a problem when you're almost an apron team and coming off a 30-win season.

The Raptors have a grand total of 5 such players, and you can make a strong argument that Poeltl is on a bargain of a deal.

Outside of superstars, or teams where players re-up before a huge breakout, very few contracts are "massively outperformed"

You can now with the MLE. It's treated similar to a trade exception in the new CBA.

[YogurtProducer]

Sure you can. You can't spend it out right, but you can use the space to absorb more salary in a trade and/or make better use of trade exceptions.

Still nope.

Unless you are under the cap you cant absorb salary without sending some out.

The Raptors don't have a single non-rookie contract where the player is massively outperforming their salary. Zero. That's a problem when you're almost an apron team and coming off a 30-win season.

The Raptors have a grand total of 5 such players, and you can make a strong argument that Poeltl is on a bargain of a deal.

Outside of superstars, or teams where players re-up before a huge breakout, very few contracts are "massively outperformed"

You can now with the MLE. It's treated as a trade exception in the new CBA.

Well yeah, you are swapping out signing a player with the MLE for absorbing a player for the MLE.

There is very limited viability there, and you are not really getting assets for taking on a MLE contract like he seems to think we would. I am not super well versed on when its available, but wouldn't that still be available to us this year as we have not used the MLE?

[brownbobcat]

Still nope.

Unless you are under the cap you cant absorb salary without sending some out.

Still strawman-ing. I never said you don't have to send salary out, I said you can take more salary on.

The Raptors don't have a single non-rookie contract where the player is massively outperforming their salary. Zero. That's a problem when you're almost an apron team and coming off a 30-win season.

The Raptors have a grand total of 5 such players, and you can make a strong argument that Poeltl is on a bargain of a deal.

Outside of superstars, or teams where players re-up before a huge breakout, very few contracts are "massively outperformed"

OK, name a guy who's moderately outperforming his non-rookie contract. Still zero. Poeltl is not a bargain, stop with that. He's not a top-10 C. He's a solid starter making 15% of cap.

[Quattro]

If Bill Simmons and SAS give their opions about basketball in a forest, does anybody care?

[ForeverTFC]

Our roster is expensive, there should be no argument there. But it's also in a transition period and ignoring that is disingenuous. I can't see how we end this season without a big trade that re-sets i) the starting lineup and ii) the cap.

The chances they were going to keep RJ was always slim and Ingram was the the clear demonstration that he's not in our plans. But we all knew he was a bad contract to begin with, so trading him has seemingly been hard for them.

[Badonkadonk]

Simmons has fallen off so hard, at least he regularly feeds FreezingColdTakes as he settles into sports journalism retirement age.

[ForeverTFC]

Still nope.

Unless you are under the cap you cant absorb salary without sending some out.

The Raptors have a grand total of 5 such players, and you can make a strong argument that Poeltl is on a bargain of a deal.

Outside of superstars, or teams where players re-up before a huge breakout, very few contracts are "massively outperformed"

You can now with the MLE. It's treated as a trade exception in the new CBA.

Well yeah, you are swapping out signing a player with the MLE for absorbing a player for the MLE.

There is very limited viability there, and you are not really getting assets for taking on a MLE contract like he seems to think we would. I am not super well versed on when its available, but wouldn't that still be available to us this year as we have not used the MLE?

No, we're too close to the tax. You can't use the MLE if it pushes you above the tax line. But the tax-payer MLE is available to us if we want to be tax payers, and the MLE does become available if we send salary out such that using it won't put us in the tax. So there is something to managing the cap to be able to use the MLE or to be able to take on more salary than you send out in a trade (you can take in 20% more if you're not above the tax line).

But yes, the idea that you can get all these assets for cap space died a year or two ago and what Presti was doing cannot be done anymore - you are right there. Teams have to get to 90% of the cap before the season starts, and the space you can go into the season with is the same as the MLE, so there will always be another 2-3 viable teams for dumping contracts, making it mean a lot less. Brooklyn is a clear example of this change; all the room and they have MPJ, the 22nd pick, a 2031 Denver first, and Terance Mann to show for it. We'll see if they can flip MPJ next year.