Are the Nuggets better than the title team in 2022-23?

[MrGoat]

Yeah, they probably are, but the 23 Nuggets were one of the worst title teams of the last 4 decades so that doesn't mean they'll win now

Worst titile team is still better than worst finals team. But championship helps you forget all the pain of loosing, you will see when your team finaly wins one in the distant future...sometimes. You will forget Reggie's teams and failures, then PG13 missed chanches, finals loss...and you were so close...when if you manage to win one...sometimes...in the distant future

Well I was a Mavs fan until the Luka trade so I had 2011 and Dirk is still my all time favorite player.

[Up-And-Coming]

Gotta give the edge to the Champion 22/23 team. Murray played like a Superstar throughout the playoffs. KCP/Braun vs Braun/THJ is close but I'll give the edge to KCP/Braun for now considering their proven defense and better spacing but wouldn't be surprised if the latter closes the gap. The rest is very close too. With that said 25/26 squad has a chance to rival it after having a quality Summer of acquisitions.

[BelgradeNugget]

Funny thing you still didn't answer basic question. Why you agree with dhsilv2 that Murray's regresion is permanent and he will not be able to rech 2022-23 playoffs level again?

Because it's exceedingly unlikely?

That postseason was defined by his series against LA. Outside of that?

MIN: 27/6/6, 59.8% TS, shot 47/43/91
PHO: 25/5/6.5, 55.2% TS (-1.4% rTS), shot 45/36/92
MIA: 21/6/10, 55.1% TS, shot 45/39/93

Oh I forget to list Phoenix series with other 3. So now it is

2019-20 Clippers 22.4/6.4/4.4 shooting 44.7%/43.8%/90.5% when gurded by Patrick Beverley, PG13
2022-23 Miami 21.4 /6.2/10 shooting 45.1%/38.7%/92.9% when gurded by Gabe Vincent, Max Struss, Jimmy Butler
2024-25 Clippers 22.9/5.3/5.9 shooting 48.1%/40.4%/89.5% when gurded by Chris Dunn
2022-23 Phoenix 24.8/4.8/6.5 shooting 45.2%/35.9%/92.% when guarded by Josh Okogie

not much of a difference

Against LA, he posted 33/6/5 on 65.1% TS, shooting 53/41/95. No one sane expects him to replicate that performance with any reliability.

I do. If he is 100% healthy and guarded by Reaves and DLo he could average 40 pts on 55%/55%/90% shooting and his overall playoff averages will look sigificantly better as we saw in 2022-23 with Lakers series and 2019-20 with Jazz series.

On the postseason as a whole, he managed 26/6/7 on about 47/40/93, or 58.6% TS.

Yes if you play Lakers it could bump your averages by 7 pts, shooting from 47% to 53%, and some people might think you become all-nba player...

No one is suggesting he can't have a good first round again. But we are discussing this in the context of title contention. You get past the first and second round, you start running into better defenses.

Except if you play Lakers in the WCF you can run into historically laughable defense and have historic stats...now I don't think Lakers were bad, they were bad on defense, good on offense so it could bump players stats if you play a team like that

Again and again, you look at how he was scoring, and it's all him hitting shots at a notably higher level than basically any other postseason (or regular season) in his career to date.

Eeee, well he had basicaly the same playoffs in the 2019-20, he replicated it in 2022-23. It was two in a row he played in...and was healthy, by the way

but ok we disagree I see.

[BelgradeNugget]

Yeah, they probably are, but the 23 Nuggets were one of the worst title teams of the last 4 decades so that doesn't mean they'll win now

Worst titile team is still better than worst finals team. But championship helps you forget all the pain of loosing, you will see when your team finaly wins one in the distant future...sometimes. You will forget Reggie's teams and failures, then PG13 missed chanches, finals loss...and you were so close...when if you manage to win one...sometimes...in the distant future

Well I was a Mavs fan until the Luka trade so I had 2011 and Dirk is still my all time favorite player.

This lifted you in my eyes. I understand your pain. And I don't have anything against Pacers BTW, like them in fact. It was answer to your post, but since you are ex Mavs fan (pre Luka trade) you can sh*t on my team, all good
peace

[tsherkin]

I do. If he is 100% healthy and guarded by Reaves and DLo he could average 40 pts on 55%/55%/90% shooting and his overall playoff averages will look sigificantly better as we saw in 2022-23 with Lakers series and 2019-20 with Jazz series.

Odds of him running into such a defensive pairing after the second round are pretty low, though...

Except if you play Lakers in the WCF you can run into historically laughable defense and have historic stats...now I don't think Lakers were bad, they were bad on defense, good on offense so it could bump players stats if you play a team like that

You aren't going to be playing that sort of team in the WCF though, that's the point.

Eeee, well he had basicaly the same playoffs in the 2019-20, he replicated it in 2022-23. It was two in a row he played in...and was healthy, by the way

He really didn't, though. Like, statistically, his shooting was quite different inside the arc, as previously noted. There, he caught a heater from 3 more than anything else.

Anyway, the odd love-fest for Murray notwithstanding, if we circle back to the discussion about Denver as a whole, the tone shifts some.

Expecting Murray to replicate 2023 is not a tenable position. It's theoretically possible, but unlikely. However, as I said earlier, all Denver really needed for a legit shot at the title this season was MPJ not to be dragging ass from injury. So if Cam Johnson is healthy in the playoffs, they have a shot. They also got Bruce Brown back. Christian Braun has another year of experience and development. The Jonas pick-up makes sense.

What they still need is a real slasher. Like, even old Russell Westbrook but with a pace control and a semi-consistent jumper. If they had any kind of rim pressure at all, they'd be a VERY different team, but they are impoverished in that regard. And even still, they were quite competitive this past season.

The 2025 team was a LOT better on offense in the RS than the 2023 team, but worse defensively. The version we see assembled before us right now is interesting. They have a good chance to get back after it on the defensive boards, which is an area where they lagged a little this year (especially compared to the 2023 team). And picking it up there means ending offensive possessions earlier and getting back to their own offense, which would obviously be a benefit.

So I think they have a good chance to be a better overall squad, but their competition is also stiff, as has already been mentioned in this thread earlier. So we'll have to see how everything plays out and what other moves they make. They are SO starved for dribble penetration/slashing that it hurts.

[BelgradeNugget]

I do. If he is 100% healthy and guarded by Reaves and DLo he could average 40 pts on 55%/55%/90% shooting and his overall playoff averages will look sigificantly better as we saw in 2022-23 with Lakers series and 2019-20 with Jazz series.

Odds of him running into such a defensive pairing after the second round are pretty low, though...

You aren't going to be playing that sort of team in the WCF though, that's the point.

Well it doesn't change him as player it changes opponents and that was not argument. Argument was he couldn't...with right opponent he could. he was superstar...yes against right oponent, against PHO, and MIA he played his average game

Eeee, well he had basicaly the same playoffs in the 2019-20, he replicated it in 2022-23. It was two in a row he played in...and was healthy, by the way

He really didn't, though. Like, statistically, his shooting was quite different inside the arc, as previously noted. There, he caught a heater from 3 more than anything else.

2019-20 playoffs 26.5/4.8/6.6 shooting 50.5%/45.3%/89.7% in 19 games
2022-23 playoffs 26.1/5.7/7.1 shooting 47.3%/39.6%/92.6% in 20 games

my bad his 2022-23 playoffs, the ones he will never be able to replicate, were in fact his 2nd best playoffs after bubble, not the same. He shoot 3% better from the field and...the whole 6% better from 3. Big difference

As far as your other opservations ok, no objection

[tsherkin]

Well it doesn't change him as player it changes opponents and that was not argument. Argument was he couldn't...with right opponent he could. he was superstar...yes against right oponent, against PHO, and MIA he played his average game

Sure. It's possible that if a random and unlikely team comes up with a disastrous defensive backcourt that Murray might get hot. It's just exceedingly unlikely and not sensible to plan for, so it's not worth considering past the first round or two.

2019-20 playoffs 26.5/4.8/6.6 shooting 50.5%/45.3%/89.7% in 19 games
2022-23 playoffs 26.1/5.7/7.1 shooting 47.3%/39.6%/92.6% in 20 games

my bad his 2022-23 playoffs, the ones he will never be able to replicate, were in fact his 2nd best playoffs after bubble, not the same. He shoot 3% better from the field and...the whole 6% better from 3. Big difference

Right, but again, there are LARGE differences in the how... except that it comes down to "streaky jumper." In 2020, it was his 3pt shooting. In 2023, it was insane shooting inside the arc.

These are not things he's apt to replicate. It's possible, but lots of things are technically possible. It's TECHNICALLY possible that he could have a growth spurt at his age if he has a pituitary issue, but no one's really planning for that, you know what I mean?

We know who Jamal is. He's a good player. He's not a perennial star player. He's a guy who relies on his jumper for relevance, so he can have a hot streak here and there, particularly against bad teams. He was pretty good this year against the Clippers, over the series, for example. He was a 23/5/6 guy on 48/40/90 or thereabouts. Had a couple of incandescent games, sucked a lot of ass in games 1 and 4, was decent in game 7.

And then, as he does, he calmed down against a much better defense and looked like trash against the Thunder outside of games 3 and 6.

Good defenses largely handle him, except if he's on an untouchable heater, the kind for which you cannot plan.

That's the point. He doesn't have it if he can't get into his rhythm as a jumper. That's the specific problem with him, what holds him back from being a player of a higher tier. And a team with size and mobility will overwhelm him because he lacks the size, athleticism and handle to attack that sort of defense.

[BelgradeNugget]

Well it doesn't change him as player it changes opponents and that was not argument. Argument was he couldn't...with right opponent he could. he was superstar...yes against right oponent, against PHO, and MIA he played his average game

Sure. It's possible that if a random and unlikely team comes up with a disastrous defensive backcourt that Murray might get hot. It's just exceedingly unlikely and not sensible to plan for, so it's not worth considering past the first round or two.

2019-20 playoffs 26.5/4.8/6.6 shooting 50.5%/45.3%/89.7% in 19 games
2022-23 playoffs 26.1/5.7/7.1 shooting 47.3%/39.6%/92.6% in 20 games

my bad his 2022-23 playoffs, the ones he will never be able to replicate, were in fact his 2nd best playoffs after bubble, not the same. He shoot 3% better from the field and...the whole 6% better from 3. Big difference

Right, but again, there are LARGE differences in the how... except that it comes down to "streaky jumper." In 2020, it was his 3pt shooting. In 2023, it was insane shooting inside the arc.

These are not things he's apt to replicate. It's possible, but lots of things are technically possible. It's TECHNICALLY possible that he could have a growth spurt at his age if he has a pituitary issue, but no one's really planning for that, you know what I mean?

We know who Jamal is. He's a good player. He's not a perennial star player. He's a guy who relies on his jumper for relevance, so he can have a hot streak here and there, particularly against bad teams. He was pretty good this year against the Clippers, over the series, for example. He was a 23/5/6 guy on 48/40/90 or thereabouts. Had a couple of incandescent games, sucked a lot of ass in games 1 and 4, was decent in game 7.

And then, as he does, he calmed down against a much better defense and looked like trash against the Thunder outside of games 3 and 6.

Good defenses largely handle him, except if he's on an untouchable heater, the kind for which you cannot plan.

That's the point. He doesn't have it if he can't get into his rhythm as a jumper. That's the specific problem with him, what holds him back from being a player of a higher tier. And a team with size and mobility will overwhelm him because he lacks the size, athleticism and handle to attack that sort of defense.

Didn't read it all, I just couldn't find part all argument was about. Is he so much worst player now than he was in 2022-23 because in 2024-25 he run into really good defense and in 2022-23 he run into bad defense? How much it changes him as player?
How much different shot chart changes the fact he was better in 2019-20 playoffs and shot better?

But facts stays, and we agree about it - his 2022-23 playoffs were not outlier, he already did it but better in 2019-20. He was not different player in 2022-23, than in 2024-25, he just run into worst defense. So Jamal is the same player as he was, and no he is not going to have growth spurt at his age. He will have heater series if he runs into bad defense, not have one if he doesn't. But I see we agree, he is the same player as he was, his playoffs play depends on health and opponent...and dhsvl2's argument was he is not the same player...so you and I agree, great

[tsherkin]

Didn't read it all,

Then why are you responding?

It's just a waste of time.

[BelgradeNugget]

Didn't read it all,

Then why are you responding?

It's just a waste of time.

Yes it was, that is what I said

[balrog27]

2023 playoff Murray was something else, ill go with them because i highly doubt he returns to that form again

Jamal had a better playoff run as a 22 year old, why do you think he can't repeat it? He's only 27 this year.