Shams: Bobby Promoted to "Final Decision Maker of Basketball (still GM) " update pg. 27

[nikster]

This statement would be mostly true up to 2020, but definitely not thereafter. His "intelligent architect" didn't architect a team that fit together for the past 5 years with no real architectural direction. As for being a straight shooter? Too many examples of the opposite.

He once claimed he'd never go for play-in, remarking "play-in for what?" and then subsequently aimed for the play-in. He once told DD he wasn't trading him and then traded him, later apologizing to a pissed off DeRozan who said: " “Be told one thing and the outcome another. Can’t trust em."

He was developing such "good reputation among agents" that when Siakam tried to contact him to negotiate his contract, he never returned his agent's calls, essentially ghosted his agent then apologized to Siakam for it, saying: "Pascal deserved that I even gave him the over-communication, which I didn't, and I apologized to him for it." If he was shooting so straight, he wouldn't have to keep apologizing for doing the opposite.

He keeps preaching patience and then proceed to impatiently trade away draft capital for win-now moves. Can go on but there's sufficient evidence to say that for a supposed fast ball pitcher, he's throwing a lot of curve balls and change ups. A straight shooter he's clearly not.

There was a misses the last few years but not every GM is perfect. Masai had the recipe and the team was back on the upswing. The core of this team is drafting and developing and we are back to that. Masai is a straight shooter and calls it how it is. My biggest issue was him not tanking in the Wemby draft and moving off of Pascal/OG/Fred sooner - but he pivoted and has been fixing things since.

Not clear how you can keep insisting that he's a "straight shooter and calls it how it is" when there's ample evidence to the contrary?

With due respect, where has Masai been pivoting exactly? For past 5 years, he's pivoted to Siakam/OG/FVV, then traded Siakam/OG and pivoted to BBQ, then pivoted to Ingram while trying to trade IQ & RJ. With so much pivoting happening, what of the "fixing things" has he done that is now fixed? Our most pressing needs to get fixed: shooting and Center position are still holes.

And the claim "not every GM is perfect" is a straw man because no one is saying that nor making perfection the standard. What I've seen over recent 5 years is less like "fixing" and more like throwing things against the wall to see what sticks. It's almost like reincarnation of the Colangelo days.

I don't think Ingram is a pivot rather than an addition to the core. And of course they are listening to offers to RJ and IQ, doesn't mean they want IQ as part of this core longer term.

[Tacoma]

Rogers has kept the same Jays GM for a decade with close to zero on field success. Explain that especially in the context of firing masai 6 years removed from an actual championship

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

[Yallbecrazy]

I don't like it personally. I don't see him as a President of Basketball operations. Maybe it's just my bias from his interviews but he's not a guy I'd hire to lead my team. He strikes me more as a guy suitable for the exact role he's been in - be a genius, cap guru, behind the scenes stuff.

I have no real insight into him personally or professionally, but as a business owner, he doesn't strike me as a top level culture-setting leader. Masai 100% did. But maybe he'd metamorphisize into that kind of personality given the room? I dno. I don't see it.

As Clay Davis might say....very low rizz.

There's only 1 Masai. Bobby shouldn't have to work for anyone, he deserves the president role based on what he's accomplished.

[Yallbecrazy]

Rogers has kept the same Jays GM for a decade with close to zero on field success. Explain that especially in the context of firing masai 6 years removed from an actual championship

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

This is completely disingeous posting. One guy was supposed to be competing the whole time and the other was rebuilding for 2 years and had 3 tanking seasons in that timespan.

[OakleyDokely]

Every exec whose been in charge as long as Masai has will experience bad stretches.

Riley, Presti, Bufford etc all have had 3-5 year stretches of mediocrity during their time in charge. Presti lost in the 1st round four years in a row before bottoming out. Riley had a bunch of average to mediocre years before getting Butler. SA was saved by the Wemby draft. That's just how sports works no matter how great your organization is. It's almost impossible to be great for 10-15 years straight. It's more about whether you think Masai has it in him to turn it around.

[sbsat]

Rogers has kept the same Jays GM for a decade with close to zero on field success. Explain that especially in the context of firing masai 6 years removed from an actual championship

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

you placed zero value on the actual championship masai brought to toronto; the jays have had no such success. Also their FO has been in place for a bloody decade. You cannot make sense of it despite your best efforts

[WuTang_CMB]

Every exec whose been in charge as long as Masai has will experience bad stretches.

Riley, Presti, Bufford etc all have had 3-5 year stretches of mediocrity during their time in charge. Presti lost in the 1st round four years in a row before bottoming out. Riley had a bunch of average to mediocre years before getting Butler. SA was saved by the Wemby draft. That's just how sports works no matter how great your organization is. It's almost impossible to be great for 10-15 years straight. It's more about whether you think Masai has it in him to turn it around.

Go look at Presti's draft picks from 15'-20'

If Masai every struck out like that for 5 seasons, he would have been punted to the moon

[OAKLEY_2]

Rogers has kept the same Jays GM for a decade with close to zero on field success. Explain that especially in the context of firing masai 6 years removed from an actual championship

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

Ra ra ra Rogers. Masai wipes the floor with Shatkins in playoff relevance. Division titles Conference titles and that championship thing. Half of his post 2019 performance included a two year closed border pandemic vacuum with no fans. Masai put the Raptors on the map. The very best of the Jays was Gillick-Beeston and Beeston-Alex. Reign of Shatkins might, might, just now be coming into its own. Rogers has owned the BJs since 2,000. 25 years of one twinkle of success, Batflip and Mini Bop. Masai was a phenomena.

[Raps Next GM]

Rogers has kept the same Jays GM for a decade with close to zero on field success. Explain that especially in the context of firing masai 6 years removed from an actual championship

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

Great way to provide some perspective, even though it’s clearly falling on deaf ears.
The Blue Jays have not been as bad as Toronto fans seem to believe. The problem has been that the Jays have underachieved to expectations. That’s the difference.

And Shapiro inherited an older franchise with key players past their prime, so he did have to go through a rebuild of sorts. Reportedly a large part of Shapiro’s frustration was that AA was dealing away prospects for win-now guys. So Shapiro did not inherit a contender.

Shapiro’s biggest failure in my opinion is that his management hasn’t developed any stars. Vlad and Bichette were already in the pipeline when he arrived. Baseball players take longer to develop, but where is the next wave? Manoah appeared to be one but he has completely flamed out. They have promising prospects coming, but none have helped the Vlad/Bo timeline yet.

[Tha Cynic]

Rogers has kept the same Jays GM for a decade with close to zero on field success. Explain that especially in the context of firing masai 6 years removed from an actual championship

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

Great way to provide some perspective, even though it’s clearly falling on deaf ears.
The Blue Jays have not been as bad as Toronto fans seem to believe. The problem has been that the Jays have underachieved to expectations. That’s the difference.

And Shapiro inherited an older franchise with key players past their prime, so he did have to go through a rebuild of sorts. Reportedly a large part of Shapiro’s frustration was that AA was dealing away prospects for win-now guys. So Shapiro did not inherit a contender.

Shapiro’s biggest failure in my opinion is that his management hasn’t developed any stars. Vlad and Bichette were already in the pipeline when he arrived. Baseball players take longer to develop, but where is the next wave? Manoah appeared to be one but he has completely flamed out. They have promising prospects coming, but none have helped the Vlad/Bo timeline yet.

lol if they underachieved what do you call the one year that FVV, Siakam, OG, Barnes failed that caused all this? And even in that year, they made the play in.

We literally started a rebuild after one bad season. The Jays have been at this for a decade trying to win. Their farm system which these guys were supposed to rebuild have been absolute crap all these years.

This was personal.

[Tripod]

How can people just ignore:

Playing all their games on the road in the Covid year.

And this past year rebuilding and trying their best to lose?

The year before was a disappointment and we started the rebuild.

Context people.

Reality is Masai holds the top 8 seasons in Raptors history when it comes to winning %.

[SpezNc]

How can people just ignore:

Playing all their games on the road in the Covid year.

And this past year rebuilding and trying their best to lose?

The year before was a disappointment and we started the rebuild.

Context people.

Reality is Masai holds the top 8 seasons in Raptors history when it comes to winning %.

And most of our losses in the past two seasons has come from November/December 2023 to December 2024/Mid-January 2025

[nikster]

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

Great way to provide some perspective, even though it’s clearly falling on deaf ears.
The Blue Jays have not been as bad as Toronto fans seem to believe. The problem has been that the Jays have underachieved to expectations. That’s the difference.

And Shapiro inherited an older franchise with key players past their prime, so he did have to go through a rebuild of sorts. Reportedly a large part of Shapiro’s frustration was that AA was dealing away prospects for win-now guys. So Shapiro did not inherit a contender.

Shapiro’s biggest failure in my opinion is that his management hasn’t developed any stars. Vlad and Bichette were already in the pipeline when he arrived. Baseball players take longer to develop, but where is the next wave? Manoah appeared to be one but he has completely flamed out. They have promising prospects coming, but none have helped the Vlad/Bo timeline yet.

lol if they underachieved what do you call the one year that FVV, Siakam, OG, Barnes failed that caused all this? And even in that year, they made the play in.

We literally started a rebuild after one bad season. The Jays have been at this for a decade trying to win. Their farm system which these guys were supposed to rebuild have been absolute crap all these years.

This was personal.

Not to mention that 5 year cut off conviently starts right after the highest regular season win% in Raptors franchise history. Like no **** it's gonna take time reasses and rebuild after 7 year stretch of making playoffs and winning a title (66.3 win% in that span)

[Raps Next GM]

lol if they underachieved what do you call the one year that FVV, Siakam, OG, Barnes failed that caused all this? And even in that year, they made the play in.

We literally started a rebuild after one bad season. The Jays have been at this for a decade trying to win. Their farm system which these guys were supposed to rebuild have been absolute crap all these years.

This was personal.

Not to mention that 5 year cut off conviently starts right after the highest regular season win% in Raptors franchise history. Like no **** it's gonna take time reasses and rebuild after 7 year stretch of making playoffs and winning a title (66.3 win% in that span)

My post wasn’t criticizing the Raptors or Masai. In fact, I made no mention of either.
I just think there is a lack of perspective of what Rogers’ ownership means. There is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that it will be doom and gloom.
Their ownership of the Jays shows a willingness to spend, including going after big fish in the free agent market; patience and loyalty to the core (perhaps too much), and an eye towards developing for future too.

The execution has not met successful results. That is 100% true, and is not up for dispute, but the fact is that the “strategy” has been what any fan would want. The players have disappointed, and management shares in the blame for that. But it’s not from a lack of commitment by ownership.

Keep in mind too that the Jays play in what has long been the toughest division in the sport, unlike the NBA eastern conference which has long been the weaker side. And only six teams qualify for playoffs per league. With the play-in, there are 10 teams per conference, so it is considerably more difficult to qualify for post season in MLB.

I’m just tired of this narrative that Masai was fired solely for money or worse, that it was racism, when we have no proof of that.

I applauded the poster with the comparative stats for providing some much needed balance.

[Raps Next GM]

Not to mention that 5 year cut off conviently starts right after the highest regular season win% in Raptors franchise history. Like no **** it's gonna take time reasses and rebuild after 7 year stretch of making playoffs and winning a title (66.3 win% in that span)

I think hindsight shows that perhaps there actually wasn’t a “rebuild” at all, if one wants to find fault with the Raptors. Or that there shouldn’t have been:

Coming off the title, OG was 22; Siakam and FVV were 25. Then a couple of years later you add the ROTY in Barnes. This should not have been a “rebuild” but rather a retooling. We had 3/5 starters that were at their peak and are still really good. Add Barnes and the addition of Poetl, that’s arguably a better starting lineup than we have now. So maybe it never should have been a rebuild in the first place?

Perhaps this was instead mismanagement of a promising young core? And if so, then who is to blame for that?

[nikster]

Not to mention that 5 year cut off conviently starts right after the highest regular season win% in Raptors franchise history. Like no **** it's gonna take time reasses and rebuild after 7 year stretch of making playoffs and winning a title (66.3 win% in that span)

I think hindsight shows that perhaps there actually wasn’t a “rebuild” at all, if one wants to find fault with the Raptors. Or that there shouldn’t have been:

Coming off the title, OG was 22; Siakam and FVV were 25. Then a couple of years later you add the ROTY in Barnes. This should not have been a “rebuild” but rather a retooling. We had 3/5 starters that were at their peak and are still really good. Add Barnes and the addition of Poetl, that’s arguably a better starting lineup than we have now. So maybe it never should have been a rebuild in the first place?

Perhaps this was instead mismanagement of a promising young core? And if so, then who is to blame for that?

it's funny because either think most people wanted to blow them up sooner. They should have got the core a C like Poeltl sooner, tho hard to say who they could have got and what they needed to give up. The horrendous free throw shooting in that play in game was terrible luck, and things look a lot different if they made playoffs. Then Fred walks because Houston unexpectedly pivots directions and throws a massive bag at him.

Interesting to think what happens if we win that play in game and Fred resigns. Management could have been better but some unfortunate events occured that were out of their control as well. I think they pivoted pretty well from that.

[sbsat]

If you really want to compare masai vs atkins track record, either youve completely lost your damn mind, or you are not here to discuss in good faith. The jays have accomplished exactly nothing in the atkins era. What have they won? Just stop with this

[Raps Next GM]

If you really want to compare masai vs atkins track record, either youve completely lost your damn mind, or you are not here to discuss in good faith. The jays have accomplished exactly nothing in the atkins era. What have they won? Just stop with this

No one is comparing Atkins vs. Masai, Atkins is a GM in the way Bobby was. Holds the title but not really the chief decision maker.
Shapiro vs. Masai is the relevant comparison, and while no one would dispute that Masai had more success, it’s closer than most realize in recent years, as Tacoma showed with their records over the past few years.
If one of these two franchises are going to win a title in the next three years, my money is on the Jays. So post 2021, it’s very easy to suggest that Shapiro has been more successful.
Obviously the title makes Masai come out on top until Shapiro earns a ring too.

[sbsat]

If you really want to compare masai vs atkins track record, either youve completely lost your damn mind, or you are not here to discuss in good faith. The jays have accomplished exactly nothing in the atkins era. What have they won? Just stop with this

No one is comparing Atkins vs. Masai, Atkins is a GM in the way Bobby was. Holds the title but not really the chief decision maker.
Shapiro vs. Masai is the relevant comparison, and while no one would dispute that Masai had more success, it’s closer than most realize in recent years, as Tacoma showed with their records over the past few years.
If one of these two franchises are going to win a title in the next three years, my money is on the Jays. So post 2021, it’s very easy to suggest that Shapiro has been more successful.
Obviously the title makes Masai come out on top until Shapiro earns a ring too.

Fine lets just compare front offices. My original point is it makes little to no sense to fire masai 6 years after a title vs holding onto a decade of shapiro and/or atkins with no tangible success. It makes zero sense

[TGM]

[quote="OakleyDokely"]Every exec whose been in charge as long as Masai has will experience bad stretches.

Riley, Presti, Bufford etc all have had 3-5 year stretches of mediocrity during their time in charge. Presti lost in the 1st round four years in a row before bottoming out. Riley had a bunch of average to mediocre years before getting Butler. SA was saved by the Wemby draft. That's just how sports works no matter how great your organization is. It's almost impossible to be great for 10-15 years straight. It's more about whether you think Masai has it in him to turn it around.[/quote]

Couldn’t agree more. People seems to expect Masai nailing every late first rounder. Getting the best value of each trade.

Masai did a great job, built culture and character in the organisation. Highly doubt the next President does that.

Also people might fault Masai for Vision 6’9 or his infatuation with African projects. But there are so many teams trying to compete the same way and we are not the most attractive destination for FAs and stars. You got to think out of box and try something different. Can’t blame the man for trying.