Shams: Bobby Promoted to "Final Decision Maker of Basketball (still GM) " update pg. 27

[RoteSchroder]

Rogers has kept the same Jays GM for a decade with close to zero on field success. Explain that especially in the context of firing masai 6 years removed from an actual championship

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

I personally think the FVV/OG/Siakam fiasco did have a lot to do with it. Especially Siakam, they’re watching him kill it in the playoffs and winning ECF MVP. We didn’t want to extend him and gave him up for peanuts..why? As opposed to Bobby, who secures his players early (see Poeltl).

[ontnut]

I don't like it personally. I don't see him as a President of Basketball operations. Maybe it's just my bias from his interviews but he's not a guy I'd hire to lead my team. He strikes me more as a guy suitable for the exact role he's been in - be a genius, cap guru, behind the scenes stuff.

I have no real insight into him personally or professionally, but as a business owner, he doesn't strike me as a top level culture-setting leader. Masai 100% did. But maybe he'd metamorphisize into that kind of personality given the room? I dno. I don't see it.

As Clay Davis might say....very low rizz.

There's only 1 Masai. Bobby shouldn't have to work for anyone, he deserves the president role based on what he's accomplished.

Maybe. If only Corporate at this level was an actual meritocracy.

[Raps Next GM]

I don't like it personally. I don't see him as a President of Basketball operations. Maybe it's just my bias from his interviews but he's not a guy I'd hire to lead my team. He strikes me more as a guy suitable for the exact role he's been in - be a genius, cap guru, behind the scenes stuff.

I have no real insight into him personally or professionally, but as a business owner, he doesn't strike me as a top level culture-setting leader. Masai 100% did. But maybe he'd metamorphisize into that kind of personality given the room? I dno. I don't see it.

As Clay Davis might say....very low rizz.

There's only 1 Masai. Bobby shouldn't have to work for anyone, he deserves the president role based on what he's accomplished.

Which is…?

I know he was instrumental in the Kawhi deal, and obviously contributed to the building of the title team, but I am blown away by any Raptors’ fan wanting the title to simply be handed to Bobby.
If he is the best candidate, then so be it. But wouldn’t you rather they investigate their options?
I like Bobby, but I haven’t seen anything that suggests he should just be handed the promotion.

[Purple+Black]

I’ve been on the In Masai We Trust train since the beginning but even I admit that he led a little too much with emotion (especially after Derozan trade + GSW game 6 lawsuit), that ultimately cost us Pascal Siakam who I always felt was done wrong by this franchise. He could have bounced back here, we could have renewed his contract and then traded him, the relationship soured with Masai and Masai seemingly made a personal decision to not sign him even at the detriment of the team. Bobby in many ways brings the best of Masai while doing away with the worst, so I’m all for Bobby taking the reigns.

[TGM]

Rogers has kept the same Jays GM for a decade with close to zero on field success. Explain that especially in the context of firing masai 6 years removed from an actual championship

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

Great way to provide some perspective, even though it’s clearly falling on deaf ears.
The Blue Jays have not been as bad as Toronto fans seem to believe. The problem has been that the Jays have underachieved to expectations. That’s the difference.

And Shapiro inherited an older franchise with key players past their prime, so he did have to go through a rebuild of sorts. Reportedly a large part of Shapiro’s frustration was that AA was dealing away prospects for win-now guys. So Shapiro did not inherit a contender.

Shapiro’s biggest failure in my opinion is that his management hasn’t developed any stars. Vlad and Bichette were already in the pipeline when he arrived. Baseball players take longer to develop, but where is the next wave? Manoah appeared to be one but he has completely flamed out. They have promising prospects coming, but none have helped the Vlad/Bo timeline yet.

Shapiro has given out some pretty bad contracts. The Springer contract until this year has been a total failure. Trading away Teoscar was dumb and subsequently signed Santander who has barely played. Could have signed Vladdy at 10 years for 300 million like 2 seasons ago. Waited and paid him 500 instead.

Haven’t really drafted any tier one prospects over the past decade. He can play AA as much as he wants but he has had 10 years and this has been a Wild Card calibre team the whole team with a big payroll.

He must have naked pictures of Ed Rogers cause don’t know how you survive that long outside of Corporate Politicians and Brown nosers

[Raps Next GM]

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

Great way to provide some perspective, even though it’s clearly falling on deaf ears.
The Blue Jays have not been as bad as Toronto fans seem to believe. The problem has been that the Jays have underachieved to expectations. That’s the difference.

And Shapiro inherited an older franchise with key players past their prime, so he did have to go through a rebuild of sorts. Reportedly a large part of Shapiro’s frustration was that AA was dealing away prospects for win-now guys. So Shapiro did not inherit a contender.

Shapiro’s biggest failure in my opinion is that his management hasn’t developed any stars. Vlad and Bichette were already in the pipeline when he arrived. Baseball players take longer to develop, but where is the next wave? Manoah appeared to be one but he has completely flamed out. They have promising prospects coming, but none have helped the Vlad/Bo timeline yet.

Shapiro has given out some pretty bad contracts. The Springer contract until this year has been a total failure. Trading away Teoscar was dumb and subsequently signed Santander who has barely played. Could have signed Vladdy at 10 years for 300 million like 2 seasons ago. Waited and paid him 500 instead.

Haven’t really drafted any tier one prospects over the past decade. He can play AA as much as he wants but he has had 10 years and this has been a Wild Card calibre team the whole team with a big payroll.

He must have naked pictures of Ed Rogers cause don’t know how you survive that long outside of Corporate Politicians and Brown nosers

Oh, I agree. I am by no means defending Shapiro’s reign running the Jays. I just believe (understandably given the championship) that too many are hanging on to Masai as if he was some miracle worker, when the reality is that the Raptors’ management/direction has been average since ‘21.
So has the Jays’, but the perception is that the Jays are hopeless bottom-dwellers, when as Tacoma brought up, the Jays have been the better team these last few seasons.

[Tripod]

Great way to provide some perspective, even though it’s clearly falling on deaf ears.
The Blue Jays have not been as bad as Toronto fans seem to believe. The problem has been that the Jays have underachieved to expectations. That’s the difference.

And Shapiro inherited an older franchise with key players past their prime, so he did have to go through a rebuild of sorts. Reportedly a large part of Shapiro’s frustration was that AA was dealing away prospects for win-now guys. So Shapiro did not inherit a contender.

Shapiro’s biggest failure in my opinion is that his management hasn’t developed any stars. Vlad and Bichette were already in the pipeline when he arrived. Baseball players take longer to develop, but where is the next wave? Manoah appeared to be one but he has completely flamed out. They have promising prospects coming, but none have helped the Vlad/Bo timeline yet.

Shapiro has given out some pretty bad contracts. The Springer contract until this year has been a total failure. Trading away Teoscar was dumb and subsequently signed Santander who has barely played. Could have signed Vladdy at 10 years for 300 million like 2 seasons ago. Waited and paid him 500 instead.

Haven’t really drafted any tier one prospects over the past decade. He can play AA as much as he wants but he has had 10 years and this has been a Wild Card calibre team the whole team with a big payroll.

He must have naked pictures of Ed Rogers cause don’t know how you survive that long outside of Corporate Politicians and Brown nosers

Oh, I agree. I am by no means defending Shapiro’s reign running the Jays. I just believe (understandably given the championship) that too many are hanging on to Masai as if he was some miracle worker, when the reality is that the Raptors’ management/direction has been average since ‘21.
So has the Jays’, but the perception is that the Jays are hopeless bottom-dwellers, when as Tacoma brought up, the Jays have been the better team these last few seasons.

The Raos have been rebuilding the last 2 years...of course the Jays have been better.

Masai is a victim of his own success. Top 8 best Rap winning % are all owned by Masai.

That leaves 4...one was the covid year.

That leaves 3...1.5 we were rebuilding.

That leaves 1.5 seasons what were "bad".

Not bad results for 12 years worth of work.

[Raps Next GM]

Shapiro has given out some pretty bad contracts. The Springer contract until this year has been a total failure. Trading away Teoscar was dumb and subsequently signed Santander who has barely played. Could have signed Vladdy at 10 years for 300 million like 2 seasons ago. Waited and paid him 500 instead.

Haven’t really drafted any tier one prospects over the past decade. He can play AA as much as he wants but he has had 10 years and this has been a Wild Card calibre team the whole team with a big payroll.

He must have naked pictures of Ed Rogers cause don’t know how you survive that long outside of Corporate Politicians and Brown nosers

Oh, I agree. I am by no means defending Shapiro’s reign running the Jays. I just believe (understandably given the championship) that too many are hanging on to Masai as if he was some miracle worker, when the reality is that the Raptors’ management/direction has been average since ‘21.
So has the Jays’, but the perception is that the Jays are hopeless bottom-dwellers, when as Tacoma brought up, the Jays have been the better team these last few seasons.

The Raos have been rebuilding the last 2 years...of course the Jays have been better.

Masai is a victim of his own success. Top 8 best Rap winning % are all owned by Masai.

That leaves 4...one was the covid year.

That leaves 3...1.5 we were rebuilding.

That leaves 1.5 seasons what were "bad".

Not bad results for 12 years worth of work.

Agreed… and part of him being a victim of his own success is the likelihood that he wanted a new contract to be based on the glory days, which is what Rogers likely balked at.

But again, my point is that the Jays — as a reflection of Rogers’ ownership — has been better than people seem to believe.
Since taking over, Shapiro endured a three year rebuild (‘17-‘19) and has been over .500 for four of the next five seasons. Barring a collapse this season, that should be five of six.

So these frequent posts asking how Shapiro can keep his job but Masai can’t, aren’t looking at the numbers.
The Blue Jays have the 8th best record in all of baseball since 2020. In the top seven are two division rivals, making their regular season success more impressive and their lack of postseason appearances more explainable.

I don’t think Masai should have been let go, but to suggest Shapiro should be, is overlooking the results.

[OAKLEY_2]

Shapiro has given out some pretty bad contracts. The Springer contract until this year has been a total failure. Trading away Teoscar was dumb and subsequently signed Santander who has barely played. Could have signed Vladdy at 10 years for 300 million like 2 seasons ago. Waited and paid him 500 instead.

Haven’t really drafted any tier one prospects over the past decade. He can play AA as much as he wants but he has had 10 years and this has been a Wild Card calibre team the whole team with a big payroll.

He must have naked pictures of Ed Rogers cause don’t know how you survive that long outside of Corporate Politicians and Brown nosers

Oh, I agree. I am by no means defending Shapiro’s reign running the Jays. I just believe (understandably given the championship) that too many are hanging on to Masai as if he was some miracle worker, when the reality is that the Raptors’ management/direction has been average since ‘21.
So has the Jays’, but the perception is that the Jays are hopeless bottom-dwellers, when as Tacoma brought up, the Jays have been the better team these last few seasons.

The Raos have been rebuilding the last 2 years...of course the Jays have been better.

Masai is a victim of his own success. Top 8 best Rap winning % are all owned by Masai.

That leaves 4...one was the covid year.

That leaves 3...1.5 we were rebuilding.

That leaves 1.5 seasons what were "bad".

Not bad results for 12 years worth of work.

And don't ever forget people that one of the reasons we paid him top dollars as in 15 million was because whenever his contract was coming up some big market team was rumoured to fly in and take him away. That is how we know he was valueable to mlse. They wrote a near blank cheque to retain his moxy. And to own his legacy.

Another thing in the what has our President done for us lately. Well after we had to do the gameshow bubble and Vegas basement hotel Tampa we then limped home to gain a footing back on our foreign outlier soil. The love for Toronto by our developed players went missing pushing 3 years out of the city and facilities. We had to rebuild just to recalibrate post pandemic. Recalibrate three years past the pandemic and it seemed like none of Fred, Paskal or OG had any affinity for the team they took to the highest level.

Masai had a standout 12+ years.

[TGM]

I think people criticise Masai for not tearing down and crystallising asset value earlier. The fact is our players were never that valuable. Yes we won a championship, but Kawhi had one of the craziest playoff runs in history. Having Gasol and Ibaka doesn’t hurt either.

Siakam might have made it to the finals, but watch that Indy team fall into pieces next season. The Pacers this year was statistically one of the most balanced performing teams. Which was more an anomaly as to something repeatable.

The other challenge Masai has is the ability to attract free agents to Toronto. Toronto has yet signed a major external FA.

So he did what he could do while not hard capping the team.

Even trading Norm for Trent I can see the logic. You get a cheaper player that is younger with upside. I don’t think anyone expected Norm to become the Norm last year.

Over the years he messed up maybe the Bruno and Malachi picks. The rest of his first rounders were pretty good:

Bruno, Wright, Jakob, Pascal, OG, Malachi, Scottie, Gradey, Ja’Kobe, CMB.

I think that’s a pretty good track record.

[WaltFrazier]

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

Great way to provide some perspective, even though it’s clearly falling on deaf ears.
The Blue Jays have not been as bad as Toronto fans seem to believe. The problem has been that the Jays have underachieved to expectations. That’s the difference.

And Shapiro inherited an older franchise with key players past their prime, so he did have to go through a rebuild of sorts. Reportedly a large part of Shapiro’s frustration was that AA was dealing away prospects for win-now guys. So Shapiro did not inherit a contender.

Shapiro’s biggest failure in my opinion is that his management hasn’t developed any stars. Vlad and Bichette were already in the pipeline when he arrived. Baseball players take longer to develop, but where is the next wave? Manoah appeared to be one but he has completely flamed out. They have promising prospects coming, but none have helped the Vlad/Bo timeline yet.

Shapiro has given out some pretty bad contracts. The Springer contract until this year has been a total failure. Trading away Teoscar was dumb and subsequently signed Santander who has barely played. Could have signed Vladdy at 10 years for 300 million like 2 seasons ago. Waited and paid him 500 instead.

Haven’t really drafted any tier one prospects over the past decade. He can play AA as much as he wants but he has had 10 years and this has been a Wild Card calibre team the whole team with a big payroll.

He must have naked pictures of Ed Rogers cause don’t know how you survive that long outside of Corporate Politicians and Brown nosers

Funny, with the Jays recent good stretch that has them in first place, I totally forgot about Santander. But I don't pay attention as closely as I did a few years ago. I assume he's hurt? Varsho should be back soon too I expect?

As I say, my interest is down since Shapiro took over. In 2015 and 16 I watched almost every game or listened on radio if driving. This may be a crazy statement but I feel like AA had the greatest deadline in the history of baseball in 2015. The excitement of the arrival of David Price, Tulo and others, the run the team went on. The bat flip game and rivalry with Rangers. It was reminiscent of the two WS champs or the late 80s Jays for excitement. Sadly they came up short, but those were real contenders. I've never felt that excitement ever since 2016. I wish AA had had the chance to rebuild here, still hope he returns some day. All the numbers about won loss percentage and such under Shapiro doesn't move me. The excitement is gone.

What thread is this again? Oh yeah, Bobby Webster. Maybe he'll do ok. Probably a safe choice for Rogers and Pelley.

[WuTang_CMB]

Masai hoping Bobby gets the gig

Read on Twitter

[bluerap23]

Rogers has kept the same Jays GM for a decade with close to zero on field success. Explain that especially in the context of firing masai 6 years removed from an actual championship

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

I personally think the FVV/OG/Siakam fiasco did have a lot to do with it. Especially Siakam, they’re watching him kill it in the playoffs and winning ECF MVP. We didn’t want to extend him and gave him up for peanuts..why? As opposed to Bobby, who secures his players early (see Poeltl).

Wait - so we don't get to include Masai's full resume in this cross evaluation? We're including a tank year, a year in Tampa, but not the decade where we averaged over 50 wins and a chip. Meanwhile Shapiro has not won a thing. Ok

[Quattro]

Rogers has kept the same Jays GM for a decade with close to zero on field success. Explain that especially in the context of firing masai 6 years removed from an actual championship

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

Dig a little deeper:

2020 - tank season in florida. Got scottie barnes.
2021 - team wins 48 games which is why i dont blame him for bretting on the OG, PS, FVV core
2022 - 500. If theres justified criticism, then itd probably that he didnt immediately move off this core here.
2023 - he moves off the core and signals a rebuild
2024 - tank year playing rookies

So 2.5 out of 5 were tank years which hilariously, all of his detractors WANTED him to do but in their next breath, criticize his "record" the last 5 years. And the rest was a failed bet on his former players

He had an incredible draft in 2023 to restock the bare cupboard with young rotation players too.

I find it convenient in your comparison to shatkins that you cut it off at 5 years. How about going back a couple more? How does it look then?

Finally, he wasnt fired for his record thr last 5 years. His new boss wanted him gone a year after winning the nba title. Even the donkeys on this forum calling for his head would have revolted at that time so the timing today was much more convenient for nepo baby.

[RoteSchroder]

Of the 6 years removed, Masai's performance over the past 5 have been the reason for his firing, so at your request here's a provision of on-field success context vis-a-vis Jays Mark Shapiro (whom I'm not a fan of BTW).

Regular Season
Mark: 378W 330L (0.534 winning %)
Masai: 171W 229 L (0.427 winning %)

Post-Season
Mark: 3 made of last 5 completed seasons
Masai: 2 made of last 5 completed seasons

So if your claim that Shapiro has "had close to zero on field success" is true, then Masai's on-field success has been less than that over this period.

I personally think the FVV/OG/Siakam fiasco did have a lot to do with it. Especially Siakam, they’re watching him kill it in the playoffs and winning ECF MVP. We didn’t want to extend him and gave him up for peanuts..why? As opposed to Bobby, who secures his players early (see Poeltl).

Wait - so we don't get to include Masai's full resume in this cross evaluation? We're including a tank year, a year in Tampa, but not the decade where we averaged over 50 wins and a chip. Meanwhile Shapiro has not won a thing. Ok

I’m speculating on what I think may be going through the head of Ed Rogers (and why he dislikes Masai) and/or other execs/owners. Maybe they credit Bobby more and 1) disagree with Masai’s opinions or decision making, 2) don’t like he’s not 100% committed to the team (BWB), 3) don’t want to pay him big bucks.

That is the general sentiment given by the media at least, not sure if this info was relayed to them or if they’re just making things up.

[WuTang_CMB]

This is my read on this situation as of july 7:


I think it's obvious Rogers and Pelley have no idea how a basketball team runs which is why they are hiring a president for Raps and not the other clubs.

But I also think this could be a PR stunt with Pelley announcing they are in the search for one meanwhile Bobby could be their guy from the get go. If they just let Masai walk and kept Bobby as GM they will just be labeled cheap. But now that they put it out there they are doing a President search, they can save face and say Bobby is the right guy from all the candidates to lead us and he's been promoted to President of Basketball Ops. Plus I'm pretty sure Masai gave his recommendation for Bobby to lead us which if they were smart, should count for something since Rogers/Pelley don't know anything about the NBA.

I also think the NBA is a whole different animal and you need that cache of a president for optics for agents, players etc.

Let's hope Bobby gets it

[ATLTimekeeper]

Someone said they already have someone in mind. Someone else said it will be a former player agent. I wouldn't read too much into the CAA search as I think we're one of the franchises that has to open up opportunities to compete or agents hold it against us. It could very well be Bobby was always the guy. I did think it was a vote of confidence that ownership signed off on that Poeltl extension. It wasn't necessary at this time.

[ill-Will03]

I’ve been on the In Masai We Trust train since the beginning but even I admit that he led a little too much with emotion (especially after Derozan trade + GSW game 6 lawsuit), that ultimately cost us Pascal Siakam who I always felt was done wrong by this franchise. He could have bounced back here, we could have renewed his contract and then traded him, the relationship soured with Masai and Masai seemingly made a personal decision to not sign him even at the detriment of the team. Bobby in many ways brings the best of Masai while doing away with the worst, so I’m all for Bobby taking the reins.

You seriously blaming him for being too emotional for the game 6 lawsuit? Give me a damn break. That cop was a racist prick.

[Purple+Black]

I’ve been on the In Masai We Trust train since the beginning but even I admit that he led a little too much with emotion (especially after Derozan trade + GSW game 6 lawsuit), that ultimately cost us Pascal Siakam who I always felt was done wrong by this franchise. He could have bounced back here, we could have renewed his contract and then traded him, the relationship soured with Masai and Masai seemingly made a personal decision to not sign him even at the detriment of the team. Bobby in many ways brings the best of Masai while doing away with the worst, so I’m all for Bobby taking the reins.

You seriously blaming him for being too emotional for the game 6 lawsuit? Give me a damn break. That cop was a racist prick.

I think you misunderstood my post, the lawsuit was absolutely warranted. I’m just saying that the trauma from everything that transpired that year could have led to what came afterwards, some emotionally-led decisions, the most costly of which was the reluctance to sign Pascal and then the eventual trade.

[Jerry Lucas]

Someone said they already have someone in mind. Someone else said it will be a former player agent. I wouldn't read too much into the CAA search as I think we're one of the franchises that has to open up opportunities to compete or agents hold it against us. It could very well be Bobby was always the guy. I did think it was a vote of confidence that ownership signed off on that Poeltl extension. It wasn't necessary at this time.

I'm pretty sure it was Wolstat who said both of those things, but yeah it wouldn't surprise me at all if they went with Alex Saratsis.