RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[Kawaii Leonard]

and championships, finals mvps, mvps, and defensive player of the year award.

Leading the league in scoring ten times isn’t trivial. It’s a statement in dominance. Who else did this, Wilt maybe?

Listen, Jordan is my goat too. I’ll argue, however, that it’s far closer than either of you fanatical fanboys/haters—on your 4 limbs—continue to bicker about. Tiring is an overstatement in these type of threads. You are using scoring titles for a shoot-first SG vs. a pass-first Point Forward and it is archaic at best. You’re embarrassing yourself for even trying to use that as an angle.



The blue trend line tells us on avg, how many shots an NBA player should take to score a certain number of pts in their career. But the real story is about the residuals, and those are the gaps between what the model expected a player to shoot vs what they actually shot and if we’re taking a closer look:



We see Lebron sits well below the regression line, that means he took over 1300 fewer shots than what the model expected of him, so he didn’t just break the all-time scoring record by showing up. He broke it by outperforming expectations for 2 decades. Kareem sits right at the regression line so he performed basically as he was expected. Now we go to Michael Jordan, who took over 1500 more shots than what was expected from him. Lebron showing that below the regression tells you that he broke the system and it’s not just about longevity but greatness that lasted.

So yes, LOL at that image with those scoring titles. How about we start talking about the other 2 boxscore counters in Assists and Rebounds? Or have an objective discussion about individual vs. team success in that pic or the fact that he was robbed of his DPOY to Marc who wasn’t even an all-def player that year? Jordan forced statkeepers hands in home games to inflate his defensive stats and also had the best whistle of all-time from refs. His influence and story-line is unmatched, however.

Those graphs mean nothing and if as a scorer you consider it close, then you are definitely a fan of lebron, period.

If we judge scoring alone, it’s not remotely close. Jordan had a high clip from everywhere on the court other than the three point line. It was automatic. Ten scoring titles says it all.

Lebron is no KD, let alone Jordan.

You homers who think it’s distant between him and kobe are hilarious. That’s the close comparison. You’ll see after lebron retires and the fans (aside from mods) eventually leave. Thats how it works.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

God you’re hilarious and beyond shameless at the same time. Continue on. I’m out of here with this type of drivel and ignorance. Now, he’s bringing Kobe, a top 5-7 player all time (at best) in goat talks. Followed by: “Lebron is no KD, let alone Jordan”. You can’t make this up. How do you get dressed in the morning?

[ScrantonBulls]

Listen, Jordan is my goat too. I’ll argue, however, that it’s far closer than either of you fanatical fanboys/haters—on your 4 limbs—continue to bicker about. Tiring is an overstatement in these type of threads. You are using scoring titles for a shoot-first SG vs. a pass-first Point Forward and it is archaic at best. You’re embarrassing yourself for even trying to use that as an angle.



The blue trend line tells us on avg, how many shots an NBA player should take to score a certain number of pts in their career. But the real story is about the residuals, and those are the gaps between what the model expected a player to shoot vs what they actually shot and if we’re taking a closer look:



We see Lebron sits well below the regression line, that means he took over 1300 fewer shots than what the model expected of him, so he didn’t just break the all-time scoring record by showing up. He broke it by outperforming expectations for 2 decades. Kareem sits right at the regression line so he performed basically as he was expected. Now we go to Michael Jordan, who took over 1500 more shots than what was expected from him. Lebron showing that below the regression tells you that he broke the system and it’s not just about longevity but greatness that lasted.

So yes, LOL at that image with those scoring titles. How about we start talking about the other 2 boxscore counters in Assists and Rebounds? Or have an objective discussion about individual vs. team success in that pic or the fact that he was robbed of his DPOY to Marc who wasn’t even an all-def player that year? Jordan forced statkeepers hands in home games to inflate his defensive stats and also had the best whistle of all-time from refs. His influence and story-line is unmatched, however.

Those graphs mean nothing and if as a scorer you consider it close, then you are definitely a fan of lebron, period.

If we judge scoring alone, it’s not remotely close. Jordan had a high clip from everywhere on the court other than the three point line. It was automatic. Ten scoring titles says it all.

Lebron is no KD, let alone Jordan.

You homers who think it’s distant between him and kobe are hilarious. That’s the close comparison. You’ll see after lebron retires and the fans (aside from mods) eventually leave. Thats how it works.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

God you’re hilarious and beyond shameless at the same time. Continue on. I’m out of here with this type of drivel and ignorance. Now, he’s bringing Kobe, a top 5-7 player all time (at best) in goat talks. Followed by: “Lebron is no KD, let alone Jordan”. You can’t make this up. How do you get dressed in the morning?

Look at my signature. I kid you not - that is a real post. That's what you're arguing with right there. And it is from a so called MJ superfan.

[Kawaii Leonard]

Those graphs mean nothing and if as a scorer you consider it close, then you are definitely a fan of lebron, period.

If we judge scoring alone, it’s not remotely close. Jordan had a high clip from everywhere on the court other than the three point line. It was automatic. Ten scoring titles says it all.

Lebron is no KD, let alone Jordan.

You homers who think it’s distant between him and kobe are hilarious. That’s the close comparison. You’ll see after lebron retires and the fans (aside from mods) eventually leave. Thats how it works.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

God you’re hilarious and beyond shameless at the same time. Continue on. I’m out of here with this type of drivel and ignorance. Now, he’s bringing Kobe, a top 5-7 player all time (at best) in goat talks. Followed by: “Lebron is no KD, let alone Jordan”. You can’t make this up. How do you get dressed in the morning?

Look at my signature. I kid you not - that is a real post. That's what you're arguing with right there. And it is from a so called MJ superfan.

I’m familiar with these types after my keyboard wars with WarriorGM. I’ve learned that ignoring is the best course after one or two full takes. If they can’t be reasoned with, it’s only your time & energy you are wasting.
I get that we’re on the internet and we can hide behind our online characters, but how do you even sleep at night—while knowing you’re this much of a troll or fraud? Holding this much of a grudge on a person you’ve never met, who doesn’t even know of your existence is an extension of their irl stress or troubles perhaps. Sports does bring out the best and worst of us emotionally sometimes.

Is it escapism? Did Lebron pass his kid for an autograph after waiting for hrs? Is he on the Jordan Legacy PR team’s payroll? What is it, to push someone to these type of lengths? It makes me question so many things beyond just basketball.

[Statlanta]

The reason why LeBron isn't seen as a scorer despite not relying on FTs like Jordan and shooting more 3's than him and Kareem is because a lot of his points are at the basket. Which is a point in his favor in certain arguments that he is able to get where he wants on the basketball floor but for the aestheticians it looks like he has a limited kit compared to a Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony or Michael Jordan.

[bledredwine]

God you’re hilarious and beyond shameless at the same time. Continue on. I’m out of here with this type of drivel and ignorance. Now, he’s bringing Kobe, a top 5-7 player all time (at best) in goat talks. Followed by: “Lebron is no KD, let alone Jordan”. You can’t make this up. How do you get dressed in the morning?

Look at my signature. I kid you not - that is a real post. That's what you're arguing with right there. And it is from a so called MJ superfan.

I’m familiar with these types after my keyboard wars with WarriorGM. I’ve learned that ignoring is the best course after one or two full takes. If they can’t be reasoned with, it’s only your time & energy you are wasting.
I get that we’re on the internet and we can hide behind our online characters, but how do you even sleep at night—while knowing you’re this much of a troll or fraud? Holding this much of a grudge on a person you’ve never met, who doesn’t even know of your existence is an extension of their irl stress or troubles perhaps. Sports does bring out the best and worst of us emotionally sometimes.

Is it escapism? Did Lebron pass his kid for an autograph after waiting for hrs? Is he on the Jordan Legacy PR team’s payroll? What is it, to push someone to these type of lengths? It makes me question so many things beyond just basketball.

It works both ways. We think the same of you guys until you can discuss these matters with a sense of integrity and respect.

[Kawaii Leonard]

Look at my signature. I kid you not - that is a real post. That's what you're arguing with right there. And it is from a so called MJ superfan.

I’m familiar with these types after my keyboard wars with WarriorGM. I’ve learned that ignoring is the best course after one or two full takes. If they can’t be reasoned with, it’s only your time & energy you are wasting.
I get that we’re on the internet and we can hide behind our online characters, but how do you even sleep at night—while knowing you’re this much of a troll or fraud? Holding this much of a grudge on a person you’ve never met, who doesn’t even know of your existence is an extension of their irl stress or troubles perhaps. Sports does bring out the best and worst of us emotionally sometimes.

Is it escapism? Did Lebron pass his kid for an autograph after waiting for hrs? Is he on the Jordan Legacy PR team’s payroll? What is it, to push someone to these type of lengths? It makes me question so many things beyond just basketball.

It works both ways. We think the same of you guys until you can discuss these matters with a sense of integrity and respect.

Who is ‘we’ and ‘you guys’? I’m a massive fan of both players. I consider MJ the goat and LBJ the boat, as Riley coined it. You’re a flaming red, glazing homer of your Airness and a dismissive hypocritical cynic of Lebron. Even Skip Bayless would be in awe.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

You say stuff like this about a 6x all-def player, who was runner-up dpoy from 2011 - 2013, and we’re supposed to level with you while showing respect and integrity?

[ScrantonBulls]

I’m familiar with these types after my keyboard wars with WarriorGM. I’ve learned that ignoring is the best course after one or two full takes. If they can’t be reasoned with, it’s only your time & energy you are wasting.
I get that we’re on the internet and we can hide behind our online characters, but how do you even sleep at night—while knowing you’re this much of a troll or fraud? Holding this much of a grudge on a person you’ve never met, who doesn’t even know of your existence is an extension of their irl stress or troubles perhaps. Sports does bring out the best and worst of us emotionally sometimes.

Is it escapism? Did Lebron pass his kid for an autograph after waiting for hrs? Is he on the Jordan Legacy PR team’s payroll? What is it, to push someone to these type of lengths? It makes me question so many things beyond just basketball.

It works both ways. We think the same of you guys until you can discuss these matters with a sense of integrity and respect.

Who is ‘we’ and ‘you guys’? I’m a massive fan of both players. I consider MJ the goat and LBJ the boat, as Riley coined it. You’re a flaming red, glazing homer of your Airness and a dismissive hypocritical cynic of Lebron. Even Skip Bayless would be in awe.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

You say stuff like this about a 6x all-def player, who was runner-up dpoy from 2011 - 2013, and we’re supposed to level with you while showing respect and integrity?

Figured I'd ask since you seem very unbiased in this discussion. Who do you think is the better/more effective defender? LeBron or MJ? Obviously there is some nuance because you have man defense and help defense, and they played in eras where the defensive rules were wildly different.

[Kawaii Leonard]

It works both ways. We think the same of you guys until you can discuss these matters with a sense of integrity and respect.

Who is ‘we’ and ‘you guys’? I’m a massive fan of both players. I consider MJ the goat and LBJ the boat, as Riley coined it. You’re a flaming red, glazing homer of your Airness and a dismissive hypocritical cynic of Lebron. Even Skip Bayless would be in awe.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

You say stuff like this about a 6x all-def player, who was runner-up dpoy from 2011 - 2013, and we’re supposed to level with you while showing respect and integrity?

Figured I'd ask since you seem very unbiased in this discussion. Who do you think is the better/more effective defender? LeBron or MJ? Obviously there is some nuance because you have man defense and help defense, and they played in eras where the defensive rules were wildly different.

Jordan for me. Much more of a lockdown defender and Lebron does go on lapses, makes sense with all his driving—even more so with the modern game’s pace and as he aged. Lebron obviously does have the size and versatility to switch more, which is invaluable too. I also think he has a higher defensive IQ with the ability to read plays before they even unfold. But I’ll still take MJ when I need a stop in crunch time. Can’t go wrong with either and depends on your team’s needs tbh. Do you need a Tony Allen or a Draymond type? I think it comes down to whether if you have legitimate rim protection and if your PG is an undersized cone like Trae.

[ScrantonBulls]

Who is ‘we’ and ‘you guys’? I’m a massive fan of both players. I consider MJ the goat and LBJ the boat, as Riley coined it. You’re a flaming red, glazing homer of your Airness and a dismissive hypocritical cynic of Lebron. Even Skip Bayless would be in awe.




You say stuff like this about a 6x all-def player, who was runner-up dpoy from 2011 - 2013, and we’re supposed to level with you while showing respect and integrity?

Figured I'd ask since you seem very unbiased in this discussion. Who do you think is the better/more effective defender? LeBron or MJ? Obviously there is some nuance because you have man defense and help defense, and they played in eras where the defensive rules were wildly different.

Jordan for me. Much more of a lockdown defender and Lebron does go on lapses, makes sense with all his driving—even more so with the modern game’s pace and as he aged. Lebron obviously does have the size and versatility to switch more, which is invaluable too. I also think he has a higher defensive IQ with the ability to read plays before they even unfold. But I’ll still take MJ when I need a stop in crunch time. Can’t go wrong with either and depends on your team’s needs tbh. Do you need a Tony Allen or a Draymond type? I think it comes down to whether if you have legitimate rim protection and if your PG is an undersized cone like Trae.

I gotcha, respect that. I'd go with LeBron personally. He just has more versatility to me. We saw him shut down DRose in the playoffs. That's him shutting down one of the most explosive PGs in history while being a SF/PF. Plus LeBron's help defense, things like his notorious chase down blocks (the block) are things that MJ couldn't do.

While LeBron has been prone to lapses, he also plays in an era where A LOT more energy is extended on defense. You simply have to move much more than you did back when zone defense was illegal. Couple that with the insane mileage on his body. We also have way more tape and highlights of LeBron given the day and age he plays in. I also think MJ typically has multiple better defenders than him on his team. Pippen and Rodman, arguably Horace Grant. It makes life easier when you have those guys helping you and taking harder assignments.

I also don't think the competition MJ had to lockdown was particularly great. SG was a weak position back then, and like I said he has Pippen there to take the more difficult assignments.

Just my opinion though. I think LeBron's size and versatility puts him a notch above MJ. But it is really difficult to compare defense across these eras with how much the game changed.

[NZB2323]

Figured I'd ask since you seem very unbiased in this discussion. Who do you think is the better/more effective defender? LeBron or MJ? Obviously there is some nuance because you have man defense and help defense, and they played in eras where the defensive rules were wildly different.

Jordan for me. Much more of a lockdown defender and Lebron does go on lapses, makes sense with all his driving—even more so with the modern game’s pace and as he aged. Lebron obviously does have the size and versatility to switch more, which is invaluable too. I also think he has a higher defensive IQ with the ability to read plays before they even unfold. But I’ll still take MJ when I need a stop in crunch time. Can’t go wrong with either and depends on your team’s needs tbh. Do you need a Tony Allen or a Draymond type? I think it comes down to whether if you have legitimate rim protection and if your PG is an undersized cone like Trae.

I gotcha, respect that. I'd go with LeBron personally. He just has more versatility to me. We saw him shut down DRose in the playoffs. That's him shutting down one of the most explosive PGs in history while being a SF/PF. Plus LeBron's help defense, things like his notorious chase down blocks (the block) are things that MJ couldn't do.

While LeBron has been prone to lapses, he also plays in an era where A LOT more energy is extended on defense. You simply have to move much more than you did back when zone defense was illegal. Couple that with the insane mileage on his body. We also have way more tape and highlights of LeBron given the day and age he plays in. I also think MJ typically has multiple better defenders than him on his team. Pippen and Rodman, arguably Horace Grant. It makes life easier when you have those guys helping you and taking harder assignments.

I also don't think the competition MJ had to lockdown was particularly great. SG was a weak position back then, and like I said he has Pippen there to take the more difficult assignments.

Just my opinion though. I think LeBron's size and versatility puts him a notch above MJ. But it is really difficult to compare defense across these eras with how much the game changed.

Even when he was in his 40s Jordan could do the chasedown block:

Watch on YouTube

He was doing it in college while hitting his head on the backboard:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/cxntNu6847I[/youtube]

There’s lots of help defense and chase down blocks here:

Watch on YouTube

Not sure why the highlight of him hitting his head on the backboard during a chase down block in college isn’t working, but you can either copy and paste the link or see it in the bottom video.

[bledredwine]

I’m familiar with these types after my keyboard wars with WarriorGM. I’ve learned that ignoring is the best course after one or two full takes. If they can’t be reasoned with, it’s only your time & energy you are wasting.
I get that we’re on the internet and we can hide behind our online characters, but how do you even sleep at night—while knowing you’re this much of a troll or fraud? Holding this much of a grudge on a person you’ve never met, who doesn’t even know of your existence is an extension of their irl stress or troubles perhaps. Sports does bring out the best and worst of us emotionally sometimes.

Is it escapism? Did Lebron pass his kid for an autograph after waiting for hrs? Is he on the Jordan Legacy PR team’s payroll? What is it, to push someone to these type of lengths? It makes me question so many things beyond just basketball.

It works both ways. We think the same of you guys until you can discuss these matters with a sense of integrity and respect.

Who is ‘we’ and ‘you guys’? I’m a massive fan of both players. I consider MJ the goat and LBJ the boat, as Riley coined it. You’re a flaming red, glazing homer of your Airness and a dismissive hypocritical cynic of Lebron. Even Skip Bayless would be in awe.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

You say stuff like this about a 6x all-def player, who was runner-up dpoy from 2011 - 2013, and we’re supposed to level with you while showing respect and integrity?

You know damned well that Lebron has taken plenty of defensive possessions off for at least a third of his career, if you are truly unbiased. It’s a stupid comparison. disagree? Fine, but it’s a difference in opinion. If you can’t deal with that, then you may want to analyze how much of a fan you really are of either player because it’s pretty obvious why one could consider it not a close comparison by now.

If not, read through our last thread and you’ll see why one can objectively come to that conclusion. And if you even after all of that, then yes, you’re likely a lebron fan, not much of a jordan fan.

[One Last Shot]

Jordan for me. Much more of a lockdown defender and Lebron does go on lapses, makes sense with all his driving—even more so with the modern game’s pace and as he aged. Lebron obviously does have the size and versatility to switch more, which is invaluable too. I also think he has a higher defensive IQ with the ability to read plays before they even unfold. But I’ll still take MJ when I need a stop in crunch time. Can’t go wrong with either and depends on your team’s needs tbh. Do you need a Tony Allen or a Draymond type? I think it comes down to whether if you have legitimate rim protection and if your PG is an undersized cone like Trae.

I gotcha, respect that. I'd go with LeBron personally. He just has more versatility to me. We saw him shut down DRose in the playoffs. That's him shutting down one of the most explosive PGs in history while being a SF/PF. Plus LeBron's help defense, things like his notorious chase down blocks (the block) are things that MJ couldn't do.

While LeBron has been prone to lapses, he also plays in an era where A LOT more energy is extended on defense. You simply have to move much more than you did back when zone defense was illegal. Couple that with the insane mileage on his body. We also have way more tape and highlights of LeBron given the day and age he plays in. I also think MJ typically has multiple better defenders than him on his team. Pippen and Rodman, arguably Horace Grant. It makes life easier when you have those guys helping you and taking harder assignments.

I also don't think the competition MJ had to lockdown was particularly great. SG was a weak position back then, and like I said he has Pippen there to take the more difficult assignments.

Just my opinion though. I think LeBron's size and versatility puts him a notch above MJ. But it is really difficult to compare defense across these eras with how much the game changed.

Even when he was in his 40s Jordan could do the chasedown block:

Watch on YouTube

He was doing it in college while hitting his head on the backboard:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/cxntNu6847I[/youtube]

There’s lots of help defense and chase down blocks here:

Watch on YouTube

Not sure why the highlight of him hitting his head on the backboard during a chase down block in college isn’t working, but you can either copy and paste the link or see it in the bottom video.

Are you one of those Jordan fans who believe he got a 48" vertical leap?

[ScrantonBulls]

Jordan for me. Much more of a lockdown defender and Lebron does go on lapses, makes sense with all his driving—even more so with the modern game’s pace and as he aged. Lebron obviously does have the size and versatility to switch more, which is invaluable too. I also think he has a higher defensive IQ with the ability to read plays before they even unfold. But I’ll still take MJ when I need a stop in crunch time. Can’t go wrong with either and depends on your team’s needs tbh. Do you need a Tony Allen or a Draymond type? I think it comes down to whether if you have legitimate rim protection and if your PG is an undersized cone like Trae.

I gotcha, respect that. I'd go with LeBron personally. He just has more versatility to me. We saw him shut down DRose in the playoffs. That's him shutting down one of the most explosive PGs in history while being a SF/PF. Plus LeBron's help defense, things like his notorious chase down blocks (the block) are things that MJ couldn't do.

While LeBron has been prone to lapses, he also plays in an era where A LOT more energy is extended on defense. You simply have to move much more than you did back when zone defense was illegal. Couple that with the insane mileage on his body. We also have way more tape and highlights of LeBron given the day and age he plays in. I also think MJ typically has multiple better defenders than him on his team. Pippen and Rodman, arguably Horace Grant. It makes life easier when you have those guys helping you and taking harder assignments.

I also don't think the competition MJ had to lockdown was particularly great. SG was a weak position back then, and like I said he has Pippen there to take the more difficult assignments.

Just my opinion though. I think LeBron's size and versatility puts him a notch above MJ. But it is really difficult to compare defense across these eras with how much the game changed.

Even when he was in his 40s Jordan could do the chasedown block:

Watch on YouTube

He was doing it in college while hitting his head on the backboard:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/cxntNu6847I[/youtube]

There’s lots of help defense and chase down blocks here:

Watch on YouTube

Not sure why the highlight of him hitting his head on the backboard during a chase down block in college isn’t working, but you can either copy and paste the link or see it in the bottom video.

I guess I should have worded it better. He certainly COULD get chasedown blocks given how athletic he was. But it wasn't a common thing in his defensive repertoire like it was or LeBron.

LeBron was the defensive anchor on his early Cavs teams and on Miami. He anchored some great defensive teams. MJ was never the best defender on his championship teams. We can see that after the first time he quit. The 92-93 team was 7th in defensive rating. The 93-84 team was 6th in drtg. They didn't miss beat without him. They were actually better. Pippen and Horace were the true defensive anchors.

The 2009-2010 Cavs were 7th in drtg, then a whopping 29th the next season without LeBron. It just seems really clear to me that LeBron was more important to his trans defensively. The Bulls didn't miss a beat with MJ gone. It makes sense when you have Pippen and Horace/Rodman as your #1 and #2 best defenders though.

[ScrantonBulls]

It works both ways. We think the same of you guys until you can discuss these matters with a sense of integrity and respect.

Who is ‘we’ and ‘you guys’? I’m a massive fan of both players. I consider MJ the goat and LBJ the boat, as Riley coined it. You’re a flaming red, glazing homer of your Airness and a dismissive hypocritical cynic of Lebron. Even Skip Bayless would be in awe.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

You say stuff like this about a 6x all-def player, who was runner-up dpoy from 2011 - 2013, and we’re supposed to level with you while showing respect and integrity?

You know damned well that Lebron has taken plenty of defensive possessions off for at least a third of his career, if you are truly unbiased. It’s a stupid comparison. disagree? Fine, but it’s a difference in opinion. If you can’t deal with that, then you may want to analyze how much of a fan you really are of either player because it’s pretty obvious why one could consider it not a close comparison by now.

If not, read through our last thread and you’ll see why one can objectively come to that conclusion. And if you even after all of that, then yes, you’re likely a lebron fan, not much of a jordan fan.

This is absolute gold basically saying "If you don't have Jordan way above LeBron then that means you're a biased Jordan hater and LeBron fan". LOL

[NZB2323]

I gotcha, respect that. I'd go with LeBron personally. He just has more versatility to me. We saw him shut down DRose in the playoffs. That's him shutting down one of the most explosive PGs in history while being a SF/PF. Plus LeBron's help defense, things like his notorious chase down blocks (the block) are things that MJ couldn't do.

While LeBron has been prone to lapses, he also plays in an era where A LOT more energy is extended on defense. You simply have to move much more than you did back when zone defense was illegal. Couple that with the insane mileage on his body. We also have way more tape and highlights of LeBron given the day and age he plays in. I also think MJ typically has multiple better defenders than him on his team. Pippen and Rodman, arguably Horace Grant. It makes life easier when you have those guys helping you and taking harder assignments.

I also don't think the competition MJ had to lockdown was particularly great. SG was a weak position back then, and like I said he has Pippen there to take the more difficult assignments.

Just my opinion though. I think LeBron's size and versatility puts him a notch above MJ. But it is really difficult to compare defense across these eras with how much the game changed.

Even when he was in his 40s Jordan could do the chasedown block:

Watch on YouTube

He was doing it in college while hitting his head on the backboard:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/cxntNu6847I[/youtube]

There’s lots of help defense and chase down blocks here:

Watch on YouTube

Not sure why the highlight of him hitting his head on the backboard during a chase down block in college isn’t working, but you can either copy and paste the link or see it in the bottom video.

Are you one of those Jordan fans who believe he got a 48" vertical leap?

Did I say that? What does that have to do with my post?

[michaelm]

Who is ‘we’ and ‘you guys’? I’m a massive fan of both players. I consider MJ the goat and LBJ the boat, as Riley coined it. You’re a flaming red, glazing homer of your Airness and a dismissive hypocritical cynic of Lebron. Even Skip Bayless would be in awe.




You say stuff like this about a 6x all-def player, who was runner-up dpoy from 2011 - 2013, and we’re supposed to level with you while showing respect and integrity?

You know damned well that Lebron has taken plenty of defensive possessions off for at least a third of his career, if you are truly unbiased. It’s a stupid comparison. disagree? Fine, but it’s a difference in opinion. If you can’t deal with that, then you may want to analyze how much of a fan you really are of either player because it’s pretty obvious why one could consider it not a close comparison by now.

If not, read through our last thread and you’ll see why one can objectively come to that conclusion. And if you even after all of that, then yes, you’re likely a lebron fan, not much of a jordan fan.

This is absolute gold basically saying "If you don't have Jordan way above LeBron then that means you're a biased Jordan hater and LeBron fan". LOL

And your schtick is pretty much that anyone who doesn’t have LeBron above Jordan is a biased Jordan fan. Thus nature balances.

[michaelm]

It works both ways. We think the same of you guys until you can discuss these matters with a sense of integrity and respect.

Who is ‘we’ and ‘you guys’? I’m a massive fan of both players. I consider MJ the goat and LBJ the boat, as Riley coined it. You’re a flaming red, glazing homer of your Airness and a dismissive hypocritical cynic of Lebron. Even Skip Bayless would be in awe.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

You say stuff like this about a 6x all-def player, who was runner-up dpoy from 2011 - 2013, and we’re supposed to level with you while showing respect and integrity?

You know damned well that Lebron has taken plenty of defensive possessions off for at least a third of his career, if you are truly unbiased. It’s a stupid comparison. disagree? Fine, but it’s a difference in opinion. If you can’t deal with that, then you may want to analyze how much of a fan you really are of either player because it’s pretty obvious why one could consider it not a close comparison by now.

If not, read through our last thread and you’ll see why one can objectively come to that conclusion. And if you even after all of that, then yes, you’re likely a lebron fan, not much of a jordan fan.

To be fair LeBron was a highly elite defender in his prime, and still mostly brought it in the play-offs later in his career, and certainly did for the 4 title wins.

He hasn’t much since the 2020 title, which is why I don’t place much stock in his regular season numbers since the last title, which don’t put him ahead of Jordan if longevity past the age of 35 is a major component of the argument for same imo.

[michaelm]

Jordan is at least not alone in having fanboys, LeBron has plenty obviously as well. If you are neither congratulations.

LeBron was obviously a great 2-way player in his prime, and has been capable of being so more selectively later in his career. His success and the effectiveness of his playing style absolutely can’t be denied, and even as a major KD fan I can’t put him anywhere near LeBron, KD is neither a leader of men nor a complete player, he needs a playmaker, and left to his own devices plays iso ball too much.

I don’t see it as illegitimate to prefer the more ensemble play of the Duncan Spurs or the Curry Warriors, while not rating those players with LeBron as individual players, or the Jordan Bulls once he acceded to a more team approach with Phil Jackson, and he very much does rate with LeBron imo.

[bledredwine]

Who is ‘we’ and ‘you guys’? I’m a massive fan of both players. I consider MJ the goat and LBJ the boat, as Riley coined it. You’re a flaming red, glazing homer of your Airness and a dismissive hypocritical cynic of Lebron. Even Skip Bayless would be in awe.




You say stuff like this about a 6x all-def player, who was runner-up dpoy from 2011 - 2013, and we’re supposed to level with you while showing respect and integrity?

You know damned well that Lebron has taken plenty of defensive possessions off for at least a third of his career, if you are truly unbiased. It’s a stupid comparison. disagree? Fine, but it’s a difference in opinion. If you can’t deal with that, then you may want to analyze how much of a fan you really are of either player because it’s pretty obvious why one could consider it not a close comparison by now.

If not, read through our last thread and you’ll see why one can objectively come to that conclusion. And if you even after all of that, then yes, you’re likely a lebron fan, not much of a jordan fan.

To be fair LeBron was a highly elite defender, and still mostly brought it in the play-offs later in his career, and certainly did for the 4 title wins.

He hasn’t much since the 2000 title, which is why I don’t place much stock in his regular season numbers since the last title, which don’t put him ahead of Jordan if longevity past the age of 35 is a major component of the argument for same imo.

He certainly was, but I’ve seen so many subpar players put thirty on him that I consider his defense overrated. He’s just not an all time great defender.

Ingram has averaged 22, 5 and 6 on him and I just did that one random search just now, for example. Lebron’s effective against PGs and players he can use his strength effectively against. Otherwise, I think it’s not much of a comparison on that end as Jordan was much more skilled and tenacious.

[Jamaaliver]