LeBron seen practicing at Cavs practice facility (7/4)

[Cavsfansince84]

I'm sure it affects explosiveness, stamina and general athletic performance, but at 40 it shouldn't really affect his body composition, no? Especially since he's maintained his diet and training routine (presumably) that whole time. I mean he's still 'ripped' compared to the general population, and maybe even most NBA players, but he used to be absolutely jacked before.

I doubt he has the same level of commitment to diet and working out now that he did when he was 25-28. He's known for drinking wine and I don't think he does as much weight work. He's not trying to set the world on fire at age 40 like when he was in his 20's. He just wants to stay healthy through 70+ games and be able to put up decent numbers(by his standards).

[VanWest82]

Guys like Jordan, Duncan, Russell and Magic built dynasties with their organization. Why would they switch teams? As far as Jordan goes, he was so worried about his legacy he played for the superteam Washington Wizards lol

You didn't address what I said at all here. Duncan played until he was like 40 without any retirements. Russell played to 35 when 35 was really old and was in decline. So those are not apt comparisons. When MJ came back at 38/39 there were no real expectations for him to do anything on the Wizards other than maybe get them into the playoffs. That's very different from if the 35 yr old version who was reigning mvp/fmvp had switched teams. MJ knew that playing without Phil and Scottie would be too hard and so just quit. Which is his right but you can't sit there act like its some kind of given he could have switched teams like LeBron did and just kept winning year after year.

In 97/98, MJ made 33M. He could have made that on the 99 Bulls with Kukoc and...

I believe Ewing was the 2nd highest paid player at like 18M. There were no cap space teams remotely close to that. You have to be realistic about the money involved. Few people just choose to work significantly below their market value near the end of their career. Imagine if Lebron's only option was to play with rookies or sign for 10M. At what point would he just retire, especially if there was no Jordan myth to chase?

[Cavsfansince84]

In 97/98, MJ made 33M. He could have made that on the 99 Bulls with Kukoc and...

I believe Ewing was the 2nd highest paid player at like 18M. There were no cap space teams remotely close to that. You have to be realistic about the money involved. Few people just chose to work significantly below their market value near the end of their career. Imagine if Lebron's only option was to play with rookies or sign for 10M. At what point would he just retire, especially if there was no Jordan myth to chase?

I'm not interested in excuses for why he couldn't have done it. He could have. He knew it would put him in an uncomfortable situation after having Phil and Scottie at his side for the previous 9+ years and didn't want to do it. Nothing more really needs to be said on this imo because its just people wanting to romanticize his reasons for retiring again. It's not that easy to just switch teams and immediately start winning with all new rosters and coaches.

[VanWest82]

In 97/98, MJ made 33M. He could have made that on the 99 Bulls with Kukoc and...

I believe Ewing was the 2nd highest paid player at like 18M. There were no cap space teams remotely close to that. You have to be realistic about the money involved. Few people just chose to work significantly below their market value near the end of their career. Imagine if Lebron's only option was to play with rookies or sign for 10M. At what point would he just retire, especially if there was no Jordan myth to chase?

I'm not interested in excuses for why he couldn't have done it. He could have. He knew it would put him in an uncomfortable situation after having Phil and Scottie at his side for the previous 9+ years and didn't want to do it. Nothing more really needs to be said on this imo because its just people wanting to romanticize his reasons for retiring again. It's not that easy to just switch teams and immediately start winning with all new rosters and coaches.

I'm not romanticizing anything. I'm giving you the logical, actual reason why this happened. It was over money. His only option to get paid was to tank, and he didn't want to do that. What other ATG still the best player in the league was put in this position in the last 30 years?

[Cavsfansince84]

I'm not romanticizing anything. I'm giving you the logical, actual reason why this happened. It was over money. His only option to get paid was to tank, and he didn't want to do that. What other ATG still the best player in the league was put in this position in the last 30 years?

There were teams that could have given him decent money by the standards of the day. He wasn't going to get the $30+m he'd gotten from the Bulls the previous two years so if that's your reason that's fine but to me its not a very good one and calling it logical doesn't really change that. He simply chose retirement and to some degree we're guessing what the primary reasons because its not like he'd going to come out and say 'I felt like it was better for my legacy to retire in 98 rather than risk going somewhere new and losing.' There were options out there if he wanted to keep playing. Not saying he had to either, all I'm saying is that he chose not to go that route for his own reasons and part of that is likely knowing that starting over without Phil & Scottie would not be easy.

[M2J]

OMG he's so intentionally performative

[VanWest82]

I'm not romanticizing anything. I'm giving you the logical, actual reason why this happened. It was over money. His only option to get paid was to tank, and he didn't want to do that. What other ATG still the best player in the league was put in this position in the last 30 years?

There were teams that could have given him decent money by the standards of the day. He wasn't going to get the $30+m he'd gotten from the Bulls the previous two years so if that's your reason that's fine but to me its not a very good one and calling it logical doesn't really change that. He simply chose retirement and to some degree we're guessing what the primary reasons because its not like he'd going to come out and say 'I felt like it was better for my legacy to retire in 98 rather than risk going somewhere new and losing.' There were options out there if he wanted to keep playing. Not saying he had to either, all I'm saying is that he chose not to go that route for his own reasons and part of that is likely knowing that starting over without Phil & Scottie would not be easy.

No. His only realistic options were Charlotte to play with BJ or the Knicks who would've had to trade half their team so two guys could take up the entire salary cap. Go through the options. Raptors? Please. Heat? Same issue as Knicks. You can claim it's just excuses but this kind of star doesn't just go anywhere. I repeat, no one else has been put in this position of having to take such a massive pay cut just to keep playing despite being the most marketable superstar in the world.

[Cavsfansince84]

No. His only realistic options were Charlotte to play with BJ or the Knicks who would've had to trade half their team so two guys could take up the entire salary cap. Go through the options. Raptors? Please. Heat? Same issue as Knicks. You can claim it's just excuses but this kind of star doesn't just go anywhere. I repeat, no one else has been put in this position of having to take such a massive pay cut just to keep playing despite being the most marketable superstar in the world.

I think Houston was possible. At the end of the day if he'd really wanted to go in 99 or 00 he could have found something. It is an excuse. Maybe not to you or any other MJ fan but its silly to think that money would be the hold up for the richest athlete in the world. He just felt like it was easier to retire and leave his legacy secure which again, I'm not saying its like a black mark for him. What I'm saying is that going to new teams is not the cakewalk so many people on here act like it is. Which has been inferred countless times on here and in this very thread.

[VanWest82]

No. His only realistic options were Charlotte to play with BJ or the Knicks who would've had to trade half their team so two guys could take up the entire salary cap. Go through the options. Raptors? Please. Heat? Same issue as Knicks. You can claim it's just excuses but this kind of star doesn't just go anywhere. I repeat, no one else has been put in this position of having to take such a massive pay cut just to keep playing despite being the most marketable superstar in the world.

I think Houston was possible. At the end of the day if he'd really wanted to go in 99 or 00 he could have found something. It is an excuse. Maybe not to you or any other MJ fan but its silly to think that money would be the hold up for the richest athlete in the world. He just felt like it was easier to retire and leave his legacy secure which again, I'm not saying its like a black mark for him. What I'm saying is that going to new teams is not the cakewalk so many people on here act like it is. Which has been inferred countless times on here and in this very thread.

And screw Scottie out of his only real payday?? C'mon. Even Jordan wasn't that ruthless.

Imagine in 2009 the PGA was like, hey Tiger, I know you've been killing it for us and everyone is watching because of you, but we need you to take a 50% paycut and maybe more, and not only that but if you want that money you can't play at your favourite venues, and if you do you have to start +5 to the field. So no Bay Hill, no Augusta, no Firestone. Play for way less where we say or play where you want for much, much less or don't play. The whole thing is as ludicrous now as it was back then.

[NO-KG-AI]

Guys like Jordan, Duncan, Russell and Magic built dynasties with their organization. Why would they switch teams? As far as Jordan goes, he was so worried about his legacy he played for the superteam Washington Wizards lol

You didn't address what I said at all here. Duncan played until he was like 40 without any retirements. Russell played to 35 when 35 was really old and was in decline. So those are not apt comparisons. When MJ came back at 38/39 there were no real expectations for him to do anything on the Wizards other than maybe get them into the playoffs. That's very different from if the 35 yr old version who was reigning mvp/fmvp had switched teams. MJ knew that playing without Phil and Scottie would be too hard and so just quit. Which is his right but you can't sit there act like its some kind of given he could have switched teams like LeBron did and just kept winning year after year.

You gotta understand, Jordan had already accomplished more than Magic and Bird, the guys who he considered the gold standard, after 13 years. There was nothing to chase. He left the first time and came back to finish the job. And did emphatically, in ways LeBron and those guys never could.

LeBron has played almost double the amount of seasons at this point and is still pretty far behind in hardware. It’s all about who you are chasing. If LeBron was first in finals MVPs and regular season MVPs, he would have wrapped it up already.

[ScrantonBulls]

This thread is an absolute master class from the LeBron Derangement Syndrome crew

[ScrantonBulls]

Guys like Jordan, Duncan, Russell and Magic built dynasties with their organization. Why would they switch teams? As far as Jordan goes, he was so worried about his legacy he played for the superteam Washington Wizards lol

You didn't address what I said at all here. Duncan played until he was like 40 without any retirements. Russell played to 35 when 35 was really old and was in decline. So those are not apt comparisons. When MJ came back at 38/39 there were no real expectations for him to do anything on the Wizards other than maybe get them into the playoffs. That's very different from if the 35 yr old version who was reigning mvp/fmvp had switched teams. MJ knew that playing without Phil and Scottie would be too hard and so just quit. Which is his right but you can't sit there act like its some kind of given he could have switched teams like LeBron did and just kept winning year after year.

You gotta understand, Jordan had already accomplished more than Magic and Bird, the guys who he considered the gold standard, after 13 years. There was nothing to chase. He left the first time and came back to finish the job. And did emphatically, in ways LeBron and those guys never could.

LeBron has played almost double the amount of seasons at this point and is still pretty far behind in hardware. It’s all about who you are chasing. If LeBron was first in finals MVPs and regular season MVPs, he would have wrapped it up already.

There's a guy named Bill Russell who has many more titles than MJ. There was obviously more to chase. MJ just didn't have the same fire the LeBron or Kobe did. Kobe played until his body completely fell apart. He lived and breathed basketball. LeBron dedicates his life to keeping his body in shape and mastering his craft that is basketball.

MJ quit twice during his prime. "Ultimate Competitor" my ass. If MJ didn't quit during his prime, he'd be the GOAT most likely. Who knows though. Those years off while all the other players his age were accumulating wear and tear may very well have saved him for that last 3-peat.

[Cavsfansince84]

And screw Scottie out of his only real payday?? C'mon. Even Jordan wasn't that ruthless.

Imagine in 2009 the PGA was like, hey Tiger, I know you've been killing it for us and everyone is watching because of you, but we need you to take a 50% paycut and maybe more, and not only that but if you want that money you can't play at your favourite venues, and if you do you have to start +5 to the field. So no Bay Hill, no Augusta, no Firestone. Play for way less where we say or play where you want for much, much less or don't play. The whole thing is as ludicrous now as it was back then.

No, I think it seems ludicrous to you now because many fans have spent the last 25 years rationalizing the choice he made as the only possible one and truth be told, it absolutely was the best decision for him and his legacy. Because chances are that if he went somewhere else and that for the sake of argument had little issue with playing for only $3-5m that he probably doesn't win it all that first year and then maybe not in the second and then that's how he gets remembered. So it worked out great for him but my point is that I think he knew that it wouldn't nearly as easy for him personally as it had the previous 3 years. That's my point here. So many people on here act like LeBron going to a new team/city with all new teammates and its always this big cake walk for him to win rings. That's not the way it is and the proof of it is how many times over the last 20 years we've seen teams get anointed as superteams that don't even make it to a conf final. Even when a team has talent its not easy to just throw it together and win. I think MJ at the very least understood that it would be very hard to go anywhere else and meet those kind of expectations and that's part of why he waited until 2002 to come back.

[Cavsfansince84]

You gotta understand, Jordan had already accomplished more than Magic and Bird, the guys who he considered the gold standard, after 13 years. There was nothing to chase. He left the first time and came back to finish the job. And did emphatically, in ways LeBron and those guys never could.

LeBron has played almost double the amount of seasons at this point and is still pretty far behind in hardware. It’s all about who you are chasing. If LeBron was first in finals MVPs and regular season MVPs, he would have wrapped it up already.

No, I already understand all of that. I can remember when MJ was a rookie and kids were showing up to class in Air Jordans. I think its a somewhat valid point to say that he had won more than all of his contemporaries and so that made it easier for him to ride off after 98 but my point is simply that I think he knew how difficult it would be to win that first year or even second if he left Chicago without that same system around him that Phil, Tex and Scottie had been going back to 1990. Chances are it would have been way harder to win it all in 99 than it was in 98 and he'd be a year older and not have the same level of coaching for his teammates. That's all I'm saying. MJ knew he was better off retiring than even trying to win somewhere else with all the media and expectations that would follow him. It wasn't just because he'd have to take a pay cut. Also, it had been done in other sports such as with Montana who was the goat qb by 1990, got injured and replaced by Young then went to KC and almost led them to a SB.

[NO-KG-AI]

You didn't address what I said at all here. Duncan played until he was like 40 without any retirements. Russell played to 35 when 35 was really old and was in decline. So those are not apt comparisons. When MJ came back at 38/39 there were no real expectations for him to do anything on the Wizards other than maybe get them into the playoffs. That's very different from if the 35 yr old version who was reigning mvp/fmvp had switched teams. MJ knew that playing without Phil and Scottie would be too hard and so just quit. Which is his right but you can't sit there act like its some kind of given he could have switched teams like LeBron did and just kept winning year after year.

You gotta understand, Jordan had already accomplished more than Magic and Bird, the guys who he considered the gold standard, after 13 years. There was nothing to chase. He left the first time and came back to finish the job. And did emphatically, in ways LeBron and those guys never could.

LeBron has played almost double the amount of seasons at this point and is still pretty far behind in hardware. It’s all about who you are chasing. If LeBron was first in finals MVPs and regular season MVPs, he would have wrapped it up already.

There's a guy named Bill Russell who has many more titles than MJ. There was obviously more to chase. MJ just didn't have the same fire the LeBron or Kobe did. Kobe played until his body completely fell apart. He lived and breathed basketball. LeBron dedicates his life to keeping his body in shape and mastering his craft that is basketball.

MJ quit twice during his prime. "Ultimate Competitor" my ass. If MJ didn't quit during his prime, he'd be the GOAT most likely. Who knows though. Those years off while all the other players his age were accumulating wear and tear may very well have saved him for that last 3-peat.

Jordan didn’t view Russell that way. The same way LeBron is only obsessed with comparing himself to Jordan, and continually chasing the 23 he can’t catch. Russell might be the GOAT, but they don’t see it that way.

Everyone has to quit sometime. It’s hard to keep feeding your competitive fire when you’re so good no one can beat you. Winning 6 championships in 8 years is probably a lot more boring than having to go almost an entire decade without winning 1, which LeBron might accomplish twice. It’s great to still have goals to chase to keep the juices flowing. LeBron is blessed to always have a more accomplished and revered player to chase after. Jordan didn’t have that, it’s kinda sad. Jordan is the runaway GOAT, and could have done even more. The greatest what if!

[Cavsfansince84]

Jordan didn’t view Russell that way. The same way LeBron is only obsessed with comparing himself to Jordan, and continually chasing the 23 he can’t catch. Russell might be the GOAT, but they don’t see it that way.

Everyone has to quit sometime. It’s hard to keep feeding your competitive fire when you’re so good no one can beat you. Winning 6 championships in 8 years is probably a lot more boring than having to go almost an entire decade without winning 1, which LeBron might accomplish twice. It’s great to still have goals to chase to keep the juices flowing. LeBron is blessed to always have a more accomplished and revered player to chase after. Jordan didn’t have that, it’s kinda sad. Jordan is the runaway GOAT, and could have done even more. The greatest what if!

No, I don't agree with this at all. It's simply that Russell had set the bar too high and the media by the 90's wasn't going to let that get in the way of crowning MJ as the goat. MJ was part of the first nba generation of players that really had the full weight of tv and the media behind them and they were determined that MJ become the biggest sports star in the world which is exactly what happened. To some degree he deserved it but what I'm saying is that a. Russell was not popular with the media to begin with b. lots of new nba fans barely remembered him or knew he'd won 11 rings and c. MJ's combo of scoring and athleticism was extremely marketable. It was easy to build the narrative around him once he'd won a couple rings that he might be the goat player. So by extension it was easy for MJ to feel content once he'd won 6 or even 2-3 rings because the story he tells is that he almost retired after the 92 season and then retired in 93 because he was burnt out and had nothing left to accomplish. Which is because nobody is going to enter the nba with the goal of beating 11 titles. It's just an impossible task for any player to even attempt and the media was not going to just let Russell be the goat until someone came close to matching that number because their job is always to hype up the current generation of players.

[NO-KG-AI]

Jordan didn’t view Russell that way. The same way LeBron is only obsessed with comparing himself to Jordan, and continually chasing the 23 he can’t catch. Russell might be the GOAT, but they don’t see it that way.

Everyone has to quit sometime. It’s hard to keep feeding your competitive fire when you’re so good no one can beat you. Winning 6 championships in 8 years is probably a lot more boring than having to go almost an entire decade without winning 1, which LeBron might accomplish twice. It’s great to still have goals to chase to keep the juices flowing. LeBron is blessed to always have a more accomplished and revered player to chase after. Jordan didn’t have that, it’s kinda sad. Jordan is the runaway GOAT, and could have done even more. The greatest what if!

No, I don't agree with this at all. It's simply that Russell had set the bar too high and the media by the 90's wasn't going to let that get in the way of crowning MJ as the goat. MJ was part of the first nba generation of players that really had the full weight of tv and the media behind them and they were determined that MJ become the biggest sports star in the world which is exactly what happened. To some degree he deserved it but what I'm saying is that a. Russell was not popular with the media to begin with b. lots of new nba fans barely remembered him or knew he'd won 11 rings and c. MJ's combo of scoring and athleticism was extremely marketable. It was easy to build the narrative around him once he'd won a couple rings that he might be the goat player. So by extension it was easy for MJ to feel content once he'd won 6 or even 2-3 rings because the story he tells is that he almost retired after the 92 season and then retired in 92 because he was burnt out and had nothing left to accomplish. Which is because nobody is going to enter the nba with the goal of beating 11 titles. It's just an impossible task for any player to even attempt and the media was not going to just let Russell be the goat until someone came close to matching that number because their job is always to hype up the current generation of players.

I’m actually convinced. Russell is the GOAT. Jordan 2, and the rest are fighting for a pretty distant number 3 spot I guess.

[ScrantonBulls]

You gotta understand, Jordan had already accomplished more than Magic and Bird, the guys who he considered the gold standard, after 13 years. There was nothing to chase. He left the first time and came back to finish the job. And did emphatically, in ways LeBron and those guys never could.

LeBron has played almost double the amount of seasons at this point and is still pretty far behind in hardware. It’s all about who you are chasing. If LeBron was first in finals MVPs and regular season MVPs, he would have wrapped it up already.

There's a guy named Bill Russell who has many more titles than MJ. There was obviously more to chase. MJ just didn't have the same fire the LeBron or Kobe did. Kobe played until his body completely fell apart. He lived and breathed basketball. LeBron dedicates his life to keeping his body in shape and mastering his craft that is basketball.

MJ quit twice during his prime. "Ultimate Competitor" my ass. If MJ didn't quit during his prime, he'd be the GOAT most likely. Who knows though. Those years off while all the other players his age were accumulating wear and tear may very well have saved him for that last 3-peat.

Jordan didn’t view Russell that way. The same way LeBron is only obsessed with comparing himself to Jordan, and continually chasing the 23 he can’t catch. Russell might be the GOAT, but they don’t see it that way.

Everyone has to quit sometime. It’s hard to keep feeding your competitive fire when you’re so good no one can beat you. Winning 6 championships in 8 years is probably a lot more boring than having to go almost an entire decade without winning 1, which LeBron might accomplish twice. It’s great to still have goals to chase to keep the juices flowing. LeBron is blessed to always have a more accomplished and revered player to chase after. Jordan didn’t have that, it’s kinda sad. Jordan is the runaway GOAT, and could have done even more. The greatest what if!

You'll have to expand on this conversation you had with MJ where he told you he didn't view Russell that way. Very interesting.

" It’s hard to keep feeding your competitive fire when you’re so good no one can beat you." He won 3 titles before quitting the first. You're acting like he won for a decade straight. I don't recall. Bill Russell hanging it up after 3 straight championships. I don't believe Kobe or Shaq did after they won 3 either. That's just lame, homeristic MJ mythology.

MJ just didn't love the game to the extent that LeBron and Kobe did. He didn't have the same competitive fire. Otherwise he wouldn't quit twice during his prime. The whole "he had nothing left to prove" is just a dumb excuse that MJ mythologists try to convince themselves of because they can't admit that Jordan had any flaws.

[NO-KG-AI]

There's a guy named Bill Russell who has many more titles than MJ. There was obviously more to chase. MJ just didn't have the same fire the LeBron or Kobe did. Kobe played until his body completely fell apart. He lived and breathed basketball. LeBron dedicates his life to keeping his body in shape and mastering his craft that is basketball.

MJ quit twice during his prime. "Ultimate Competitor" my ass. If MJ didn't quit during his prime, he'd be the GOAT most likely. Who knows though. Those years off while all the other players his age were accumulating wear and tear may very well have saved him for that last 3-peat.

Jordan didn’t view Russell that way. The same way LeBron is only obsessed with comparing himself to Jordan, and continually chasing the 23 he can’t catch. Russell might be the GOAT, but they don’t see it that way.

Everyone has to quit sometime. It’s hard to keep feeding your competitive fire when you’re so good no one can beat you. Winning 6 championships in 8 years is probably a lot more boring than having to go almost an entire decade without winning 1, which LeBron might accomplish twice. It’s great to still have goals to chase to keep the juices flowing. LeBron is blessed to always have a more accomplished and revered player to chase after. Jordan didn’t have that, it’s kinda sad. Jordan is the runaway GOAT, and could have done even more. The greatest what if!

You'll have to expand on this conversation you had with MJ where he told you he didn't view Russell that way. Very interesting.

" It’s hard to keep feeding your competitive fire when you’re so good no one can beat you." He won 3 titles before quitting the first. You're acting like he won for a decade straight. I don't recall. Bill Russell hanging it up after 3 straight championships. I don't believe Kobe or Shaq did after they won 3 either. That's just lame, homeristic MJ mythology.

MJ just didn't love the game to the extent that LeBron and Kobe did. He didn't have the same competitive fire. Otherwise he wouldn't quit twice during his prime. The whole "he had nothing left to prove" is just a dumb excuse that MJ mythologists try to convince themselves of because they can't admit that Jordan had any flaws.

Just lol at claiming somebody was the ultimate competitor or had the greatest will to win when he quit twice during his prime. The mental gymnastics MJ fans perform to convince themselves that is he god is hilarious.

You might be right. It’s crazy that he was both less competitive, and played 15 seasons and accomplished as many MVPs and finals MVPs as both Kobe and LeBron in their combined like 40 seasons.

Imagine the level of basketball skill and talent it takes to be that much better than them without the competitiveness. We might be talking 12 MVPs if he cared like they do about it.

Maybe not the most competitive, but that just underscores how much superior he was at actually playing basketball. Scary

[Domejandro]

I'm sure it affects explosiveness, stamina and general athletic performance, but at 40 it shouldn't really affect his body composition, no? Especially since he's maintained his diet and training routine (presumably) that whole time. I mean he's still 'ripped' compared to the general population, and maybe even most NBA players, but he used to be absolutely jacked before.

I doubt he has the same level of commitment to diet and working out now that he did when he was 25-28. He's known for drinking wine and I don't think he does as much weight work. He's not trying to set the world on fire at age 40 like when he was in his 20's. He just wants to stay healthy through 70+ games and be able to put up decent numbers(by his standards).

The big thing is that his body would not be able to hold up to the same level of physical exertion. It isn't an issue of commitment level, but rather that he HAS to train more responsibly, or his body would be at risk of breaking down.