The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens!

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[PhxLax]

Beal not going anywhere. "Buyout discussions" recently in news is nothing new and won't happen. He will be asked to stay home. This is the Jae Crowder 2.0 route.

If your not trading or buying him out make him play and come off the bench. Why make him sit at home? that's dumb.

4 reasons why: Green, Gillespie, Brea, Allen

[Sunsdeuce]

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This might not be such a bad idea as this iid does seem to have a lot of Jalen Suggs/ De'Anthony Melton to his game. Might be a vet minimum or two way steal as a 3rd guard option with the skillset to compliment Booker and J Green.

Suns already showed interest in him but the kid has been in the league for four years now and hasn’t been able to crack a rotation. Expecting a savior is a stretch.

Rollins drawing interest from Bucks, Suns, Spurs, Blazers, Lakers

Coming off the best season of his career, 23-year-old free agent guard Ryan Rollins has drawn interest from the Milwaukee Bucks, Phoenix Suns, San Antonio Spurs, Portland Trail Blazers, and Los Angeles Lakers, league sources told HoopsHype. – via HoopsHype

Career stats show 5 points, 1 assist, 1 rebound a game. Thus would be more of a flyer and hope he can stick than an actual contributor.

[BobbieL]

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Sidery is not the best source

He usually just copies other sources

[dremill24]

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This might not be such a bad idea as this iid does seem to have a lot of Jalen Suggs/ De'Anthony Melton to his game. Might be a vet minimum or two way steal as a 3rd guard option with the skillset to compliment Booker and J Green.

Suns already showed interest in him but the kid has been in the league for four years now and hasn’t been able to crack a rotation. Expecting a savior is a stretch.

Rollins drawing interest from Bucks, Suns, Spurs, Blazers, Lakers

Coming off the best season of his career, 23-year-old free agent guard Ryan Rollins has drawn interest from the Milwaukee Bucks, Phoenix Suns, San Antonio Spurs, Portland Trail Blazers, and Los Angeles Lakers, league sources told HoopsHype. – via HoopsHype

Career stats show 5 points, 1 assist, 1 rebound a game. Thus would be more of a flyer and hope he can stick than an actual contributor.

I really like Rollins as a flier, brought him up a few days ago when he became unrestricted (though the most likely scenario is he goes back to Milwaukee).

Not sure what the aversion is to a flier at low cost? If you'll only wake up and move for "saviors" then you'll be sitting on your hands for a while.

Rollins has 3 seasons of NBA experience, not 5, two of which were spent either being injured or coming back from injury. He came into his rookie year with a stress fracture in his foot, limiting his playing time until eventually having surgery that ended his rookie season. He spent the next year struggling to find a place. This year he played over twice the amount of games he had played his first two years combined.

After a full year back from the injury, this season he did actually crack the Bucks rotation, even starting in place of Lillard when he went out. He was a very impactful defensive player (+0.3 defensive EPM) and a +3.7 on/off differential overall. Granted a lot of it was during silly season, but he was objectively an elite defensive playmaker (89th percentile stl%, 61st percentile blk%). Hes 23 with a 6'10" wingspan and getting his athleticism back after the foot thing.

You could do much worse than taking a gamble on a guy like him. With precious few tradeable assets or draft picks, those are the types of swings that can expedite your "retool" if they work out (assuming you're not breaking the bank, obviously). And hes from Michigan!

[Puff]

Waiving and stretching Beal would be the death knell on any hopes of a playoff team over the next 5 years. Can't build a roster with 15% of your cap held by dead money over 5 years.

If it had to come to this, we should have used the 1st we used on Mark Williams to dump the Beal contract.

Might as well trade Booker right now if we're doing the waive and stretch.

I don't see how there is any chance we are a playoff team in that timeframe unless we really hit big on a couple of our picks and they develop quickly, trade Booker (hopefully to Houston for our picks) and get a top 4 pick in the 2027 draft, and sign a nice free agent or two in 2027 when Beal expires and Book is gone.

So nail a couple of late picks, get a top pick in 2027 (our own if Houston trades FVV, Smith, Eason for Book in the next year), and get a couple of free agents in 2027 that move the needle.

If I was the RealGM, that would be my goal. I think looking at it the other day, Amen Thompson max and KD would only overlap one year, so after that the big contracts would just be Book, Thompson and Sengun if he went to Houston.

I really do not understand your logic.

1. You were a giant Ayton fan and insisted he was our answer. I really got tired of your book long posts everyday protecting him. Maybe he proves worthy in LA but in Portland he was not wanted. When he was due for his 2nd contract which he signed with us he was demanding a max contract. We matched Indiana's offer to keep him, which was not a max contract and the only offer he received. He did not play up to the expectations we had for him, so he was traded to Portland. It was a bad trade because apparently, we just wanted him off the team.
2. Somehow you want to continue to keep Bradley Beal and trade Book. We had to trade a still very productive player in Durant because we could not move Beal. How does moving Book solve the Bradley Beal problem? I know you will say that it will free up money and we will get a boatload of draft picks. Well, I heard that story in regards to KD. We got players that Houston really doesn't need and ONE decent draft pick and did not free up any money. I actually liked the trade and am hopeful that Maluach turns out to be really good, but that is not a given.
3. Now you guys want to move on from Booker just because of the problems the acquisitions of KD and Beal caused. Book certainly is not perfect, but he is the best we have. The owner needs to sell tickets and at this point he is the face of the franchise, and he wants to be here.
4. We are not trading Booker. Stop the nonsense it is not happening. Just like the nonsense that went on protecting Ayton prior to the horrible trade we made with Portland. Trading Ayton was not a problem but what we included with him and received in return was horrible.
5. Wait, if we do trade Booker we free up money to keep Bradley Beal. That makes no sense.
6. When does it make sense to move your best two players so you can retain your biggest problem?
7. I would prefer that we just move Richards and O'Neale for draft picks to get under the 2nd apron. Apparently, they are not in demand, just like Beal.

All of our problem go back to the first days of the Ishbia ownership. We would be far better off if we did not make the trades for KD and Beal along with the trade of Ayton for what we received. We appear to be in the process of fixing things. The one suggested fix, trading Book, is not happening.

[schnakenpopanz]

Beal has all the power and i respect him a lot. Because in the first place it wa snot his fault that he got dealt to this situation.
The Suns and Ishbia knew what they were trading for.
Ishbia gave KD the keys. And in the end he rewarded him.
It is a mystery how he made his money in the biz he is working in in the first place.
Dumb owner will be doing dumb moves all over again. No one forced him to trade for KD.
If the suns were owned by the nba the situation would be a lot better.

[TeamTragic]

Beal has all the power and i respect him a lot. Because in the first place it wa snot his fault that he got dealt to this situation.
The Suns and Ishbia knew what they were trading for.
Ishbia gave KD the keys. And in the end he rewarded him.
It is a mystery how he made his money in the biz he is working in in the first place.
Dumb owner will be doing dumb moves all over again. No one forced him to trade for KD.
If the suns were owned by the nba the situation would be a lot better.

Imagine respecting someone that put up negative numbers on your team.

At no point in your post does it sound like you are an actual Suns fan.

[Saberestar]

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Who is the source here? Sidery himself?

[TeamTragic]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/nfXgEHQVTh

[Charania] The Houston Rockets are trading Cam Whitmore to the Washington Wizards for two second-round picks, sources tell ESPN. The deal gives Whitmore a tremendous opportunity for an increased role as he turns 21 on Tuesday and returns to the DMV area.

[Saberestar]

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This might not be such a bad idea as this iid does seem to have a lot of Jalen Suggs/ De'Anthony Melton to his game. Might be a vet minimum or two way steal as a 3rd guard option with the skillset to compliment Booker and J Green.

Suns already showed interest in him but the kid has been in the league for four years now and hasn’t been able to crack a rotation. Expecting a savior is a stretch.

Rollins drawing interest from Bucks, Suns, Spurs, Blazers, Lakers

Coming off the best season of his career, 23-year-old free agent guard Ryan Rollins has drawn interest from the Milwaukee Bucks, Phoenix Suns, San Antonio Spurs, Portland Trail Blazers, and Los Angeles Lakers, league sources told HoopsHype. – via HoopsHype

Career stats show 5 points, 1 assist, 1 rebound a game. Thus would be more of a flyer and hope he can stick than an actual contributor.

I really like Rollins as a flier, brought him up a few days ago when he became unrestricted (though the most likely scenario is he goes back to Milwaukee).

Not sure what the aversion is to a flier at low cost? If you'll only wake up and move for "saviors" then you'll be sitting on your hands for a while.

Rollins has 3 seasons of NBA experience, not 5, two of which were spent either being injured or coming back from injury. He came into his rookie year with a stress fracture in his foot, limiting his playing time until eventually having surgery that ended his rookie season. He spent the next year struggling to find a place. This year he played over twice the amount of games he had played his first two years combined.

After a full year back from the injury, this season he did actually crack the Bucks rotation, even starting in place of Lillard when he went out. He was a very impactful defensive player (+0.3 defensive EPM) and a +3.7 on/off differential overall. Granted a lot of it was during silly season, but he was objectively an elite defensive playmaker (89th percentile stl%, 61st percentile blk%). Hes 23 with a 6'10" wingspan and getting his athleticism back after the foot thing.

You could do much worse than taking a gamble on a guy like him. With precious few tradeable assets or draft picks, those are the types of swings that can expedite your "retool" if they work out (assuming you're not breaking the bank, obviously). And hes from Michigan!

IDK...the couple games I saw from him he looked superlimited on offense. It was like the Buck was playing 4 against 5 on offense.

Defensively he is OK but he isn't a factor at all as a 6'3 PG. I wouldn't sign him.

[bwgood77]

Waiving and stretching Beal would be the death knell on any hopes of a playoff team over the next 5 years. Can't build a roster with 15% of your cap held by dead money over 5 years.

If it had to come to this, we should have used the 1st we used on Mark Williams to dump the Beal contract.

Might as well trade Booker right now if we're doing the waive and stretch.

I don't see how there is any chance we are a playoff team in that timeframe unless we really hit big on a couple of our picks and they develop quickly, trade Booker (hopefully to Houston for our picks) and get a top 4 pick in the 2027 draft, and sign a nice free agent or two in 2027 when Beal expires and Book is gone.

So nail a couple of late picks, get a top pick in 2027 (our own if Houston trades FVV, Smith, Eason for Book in the next year), and get a couple of free agents in 2027 that move the needle.

If I was the RealGM, that would be my goal. I think looking at it the other day, Amen Thompson max and KD would only overlap one year, so after that the big contracts would just be Book, Thompson and Sengun if he went to Houston.

I really do not understand your logic.

1. You were a giant Ayton fan and insisted he was our answer. I really got tired of your book long posts everyday protecting him. Maybe he proves worthy in LA but in Portland he was not wanted. When he was due for his 2nd contract which he signed with us he was demanding a max contract. We matched Indiana's offer to keep him, which was not a max contract and the only offer he received. He did not play up to the expectations we had for him, so he was traded to Portland. It was a bad trade because apparently, we just wanted him off the team.
2. Somehow you want to continue to keep Bradley Beal and trade Book. We had to trade a still very productive player in Durant because we could not move Beal. How does moving Book solve the Bradley Beal problem? I know you will say that it will free up money and we will get a boatload of draft picks. Well, I heard that story in regards to KD. We got players that Houston really doesn't need and ONE decent draft pick and did not free up any money. I actually liked the trade and am hopeful that Maluach turns out to be really good, but that is not a given.
3. Now you guys want to move on from Booker just because of the problems the acquisitions of KD and Beal caused. Book certainly is not perfect, but he is the best we have. The owner needs to sell tickets and at this point he is the face of the franchise, and he wants to be here.
4. We are not trading Booker. Stop the nonsense it is not happening. Just like the nonsense that went on protecting Ayton prior to the horrible trade we made with Portland. Trading Ayton was not a problem but what we included with him and received in return was horrible.
5. Wait, if we do trade Booker we free up money to keep Bradley Beal. That makes no sense.
6. When does it make sense to move your best two players so you can retain your biggest problem?
7. I would prefer that we just move Richards and O'Neale for draft picks to get under the 2nd apron. Apparently, they are not in demand, just like Beal.

All of our problem go back to the first days of the Ishbia ownership. We would be far better off if we did not make the trades for KD and Beal along with the trade of Ayton for what we received. We appear to be in the process of fixing things. The one suggested fix, trading Book, is not happening.

You are misrepresenting my thoughts and posts, though I know many probably agree with #1.

Spoiler:

1. I was actually a huge Ayton critic early because I did not like him at AZ and he was terrible on defense. So much so that some people got so angry with me that they personally attacked me multiple times.

He did start to improve some in year 2 he defensively, and averaged more rebounds, and while still critical, I was fairly happy with the imrpovement, though for some reason he regressed efficiency wise on offense.

In year 3 he really started to improve defensively a ton, and also offensively finishing at the rim and shooting the midrange. His TS% skyrocketed from like 54% to 63% as he developed the hook shot, etc. He was a huge reason we went to the finals. I was shocked at the improvement from years 2-3.

He was in the top 10 in contested shots for 2 years, once for 2s and 3s.

Remember, this is when Chris Paul was saying he would get the bad, assuming he'd get a max extension, but he didn't.

Year 4...now he started to regress on defense, though his offense even improved more, as he shot like 80% at the rim, 59% from 3-10 ft and 55% from 10-15 ft. His TS% was 63.4%

However, in year 4 he took MASSIVE criticism from fans, so I felt it was in excess and defended him, because he had ended up a lot better player than I expected when we drafted him, and much of the criticism was dumb, like not dunking enough, or all his rebounds went right to him (now sure, some do, but that is the case with every player. Yes, some are better at contested rebound but he was always in double digits).

Anyway, he took massive blame for everything, kind of like Beal does now, even though he was still great offensively, had a lot of gravity where defenders would double and triple him opening up shooters, etc.

Then in year 5 he definitely regressed, but that was also when the whole team except him and Bridges were injured and we traded everyone mid season, so there was really no continuity.

Anyway, he had his faults, but the criticism was WAY overboard. Booker was pretty much one of the worst defenders in the NBA his first 5 years but never took any flack for not even putting in an effort there.

2. I don't care if we keep Beal or not, but I don't want to give up another one of our few assets to get rid of him OR stretch him and turn his problem into 5 years of $20 million cap hits. I'd rather just buy him out or let him come off the bench. He's still a good player. Not what he was, but good.

3. If we were competitive, I wouldn't want to trade Book, but we won't be (I don't understand how this can really be debated), so I don't want to watch Book spend another 5 or 6 years leading a crappy team. He won't; want it either, eventually. I don't care if we trade him now. But I think it makes sense within a year, before the 2027 season, and preferably to Houston.

Yes, I think we can get a massive package for him. I think he is better than Bane he got 4 1sts. KD was never going to get a lot given he will be 37 next season and is injury prone. I never understood why people thought he would fetch a lot. With KD AND Book we won 36 games. Neither were injured a ton...I know you think it was entirely Bud's fault, but that's not the case. Maybe some of it, but certainly not all of it. He took Atlanta to the ECF, winning 60 games, and the Bucks to the finals.

4. I agree. We are not trading Book now. I anticipate we will trade him within the next 2 years. Preferably by next summer. Just my opinion. You don't have to like it. Doesn't matter to me. But I watched him lead a lot of bad teams and I don't want that any more and would rather get a big package for him, particularly since we don't control any of our picks until 2032.

He won't sell a lot of tickets. Did people enjoy watching this year? Maybe some, and I will enjoy next year more but not because I want to see more of Booker, but I am excited to have some youth. I don't really know why even the biggest Booker fans want him to stay and not get a chance to be a playoff guy for a good while if he stays long term, if ever. Even in the best case scenario, with massive injuries to other teams stars, and we squeeze in, we are not going to win a playoff series.

But with the state of the west, we will be very hard pressed to win 30 games. Why want to watch Book go through that? I understand that many want to live in a world we have Book and somehow win playoff series, even next year, but that's far from reality. He deserves to go somewhere he can at least compete for a title or have deep playoff runs.

5. I don't want to trade Booker to free up money or keep Bradley Beal. Not sure where you got that.

6. When your best two players lead you to 36 wins.

7. I would also prefer we trade Richards and O'Neale and even Allen for picks. Though I don't think they'd get us picks. Maybe 2nds and an avg player. The only way we can get under the apron is to take back less money though, which requires a team to absorb extra salary, and only a couple teams have cap space I think. So probably not a lot of options.

We could also do something like waive and stretch O'Neale. He makes over $10 million a year, and about $32 million over the next 3 years, so we would stretch him for 7 years and it would only be like a $4.6 million a year hit per year. That saves us like 5.55 million this year.

Or Allen, who makes over $55 million the next 3 years, could be waived and stretched and it would be a $7.77 million cap hit for 7 years, but his cap hit would go down from $16, 87 million to $7.77 millon, or $9 million in cap savings this year...and would increase the next 2 years, to savings of $10.4 million and $11.6 million.

Of course these cap hits for so many years going forward are not ideal, but with a rising cap, they are fairly minimal, and may get us under the 2nd apron.

dremill, correct me if I'm wrong and you can't stretch someone over 7 years...but I know it's double their remaining years +1 year...I'm not aware of a max timeframe.

[dremill24]

Hot take? Is it crazy that I think maybe I would have rather made this Jay Huff trade than the Mark Williams one?

[dremill24]

Spoiler:

I don't see how there is any chance we are a playoff team in that timeframe unless we really hit big on a couple of our picks and they develop quickly, trade Booker (hopefully to Houston for our picks) and get a top 4 pick in the 2027 draft, and sign a nice free agent or two in 2027 when Beal expires and Book is gone.

So nail a couple of late picks, get a top pick in 2027 (our own if Houston trades FVV, Smith, Eason for Book in the next year), and get a couple of free agents in 2027 that move the needle.

If I was the RealGM, that would be my goal. I think looking at it the other day, Amen Thompson max and KD would only overlap one year, so after that the big contracts would just be Book, Thompson and Sengun if he went to Houston.

I really do not understand your logic.

1. You were a giant Ayton fan and insisted he was our answer. I really got tired of your book long posts everyday protecting him. Maybe he proves worthy in LA but in Portland he was not wanted. When he was due for his 2nd contract which he signed with us he was demanding a max contract. We matched Indiana's offer to keep him, which was not a max contract and the only offer he received. He did not play up to the expectations we had for him, so he was traded to Portland. It was a bad trade because apparently, we just wanted him off the team.
2. Somehow you want to continue to keep Bradley Beal and trade Book. We had to trade a still very productive player in Durant because we could not move Beal. How does moving Book solve the Bradley Beal problem? I know you will say that it will free up money and we will get a boatload of draft picks. Well, I heard that story in regards to KD. We got players that Houston really doesn't need and ONE decent draft pick and did not free up any money. I actually liked the trade and am hopeful that Maluach turns out to be really good, but that is not a given.
3. Now you guys want to move on from Booker just because of the problems the acquisitions of KD and Beal caused. Book certainly is not perfect, but he is the best we have. The owner needs to sell tickets and at this point he is the face of the franchise, and he wants to be here.
4. We are not trading Booker. Stop the nonsense it is not happening. Just like the nonsense that went on protecting Ayton prior to the horrible trade we made with Portland. Trading Ayton was not a problem but what we included with him and received in return was horrible.
5. Wait, if we do trade Booker we free up money to keep Bradley Beal. That makes no sense.
6. When does it make sense to move your best two players so you can retain your biggest problem?
7. I would prefer that we just move Richards and O'Neale for draft picks to get under the 2nd apron. Apparently, they are not in demand, just like Beal.

All of our problem go back to the first days of the Ishbia ownership. We would be far better off if we did not make the trades for KD and Beal along with the trade of Ayton for what we received. We appear to be in the process of fixing things. The one suggested fix, trading Book, is not happening.

You are misrepresenting my thoughts and posts, though I know many probably agree with #1.

1. I was actually a huge Ayton critic early because I did not like him at AZ and he was terrible on defense. So much so that some people got so angry with me that they personally attacked me multiple times.

He did start to improve some in year 2 he defensively, and averaged more rebounds, and while still critical, I was fairly happy with the imrpovement, though for some reason he regressed efficiency wise on offense.

In year 3 he really started to improve defensively a ton, and also offensively finishing at the rim and shooting the midrange. His TS% skyrocketed from like 54% to 63% as he developed the hook shot, etc. He was a huge reason we went to the finals. I was shocked at the improvement from years 2-3.

He was in the top 10 in contested shots for 2 years, once for 2s and 3s.

Remember, this is when Chris Paul was saying he would get the bad, assuming he'd get a max extension, but he didn't.

Year 4...now he started to regress on defense, though his offense even improved more, as he shot like 80% at the rim, 59% from 3-10 ft and 55% from 10-15 ft. His TS% was 63.4%

However, in year 4 he took MASSIVE criticism from fans, so I felt it was in excess and defended him, because he had ended up a lot better player than I expected when we drafted him, and much of the criticism was dumb, like not dunking enough, or all his rebounds went right to him (now sure, some do, but that is the case with every player. Yes, some are better at contested rebound but he was always in double digits).

Anyway, he took massive blame for everything, kind of like Beal does now, even though he was still great offensively, had a lot of gravity where defenders would double and triple him opening up shooters, etc.

Then in year 5 he definitely regressed, but that was also when the whole team except him and Bridges were injured and we traded everyone mid season, so there was really no continuity.

Anyway, he had his faults, but the criticism was WAY overboard. Booker was pretty much one of the worst defenders in the NBA his first 5 years but never took any flack for not even putting in an effort there.

2. I don't care if we keep Beal or not, but I don't want to give up another one of our few assets to get rid of him OR stretch him and turn his problem into 5 years of $20 million cap hits. I'd rather just buy him out or let him come off the bench. He's still a good player. Not what he was, but good.

3. If we were competitive, I wouldn't want to trade Book, but we won't be (I don't understand how this can really be debated), so I don't want to watch Book spend another 5 or 6 years leading a crappy team. He won't; want it either, eventually. I don't care if we trade him now. But I think it makes sense within a year, before the 2027 season, and preferably to Houston.

Yes, I think we can get a massive package for him. I think he is better than Bane he got 4 1sts. KD was never going to get a lot given he will be 37 next season and is injury prone. I never understood why people thought he would fetch a lot. With KD AND Book we won 36 games. Neither were injured a ton...I know you think it was entirely Bud's fault, but that's not the case. Maybe some of it, but certainly not all of it. He took Atlanta to the ECF, winning 60 games, and the Bucks to the finals.

4. I agree. We are not trading Book now. I anticipate we will trade him within the next 2 years. Preferably by next summer. Just my opinion. You don't have to like it. Doesn't matter to me. But I watched him lead a lot of bad teams and I don't want that any more and would rather get a big package for him, particularly since we don't control any of our picks until 2032.

He won't sell a lot of tickets. Did people enjoy watching this year? Maybe some, and I will enjoy next year more but not because I want to see more of Booker, but I am excited to have some youth. I don't really know why even the biggest Booker fans want him to stay and not get a chance to be a playoff guy for a good while if he stays long term, if ever. Even in the best case scenario, with massive injuries to other teams stars, and we squeeze in, we are not going to win a playoff series.

But with the state of the west, we will be very hard pressed to win 30 games. Why want to watch Book go through that? I understand that many want to live in a world we have Book and somehow win playoff series, even next year, but that's far from reality. He deserves to go somewhere he can at least compete for a title or have deep playoff runs.

5. I don't want to trade Booker to free up money or keep Bradley Beal. Not sure where you got that.

6. When your best two players lead you to 36 wins.

7. I would also prefer we trade Richards and O'Neale and even Allen for picks. Though I don't think they'd get us picks. Maybe 2nds and an avg player. The only way we can get under the apron is to take back less money though, which requires a team to absorb extra salary, and only a couple teams have cap space I think. So probably not a lot of options.

We could also do something like waive and stretch O'Neale. He makes over $10 million a year, and about $32 million over the next 3 years, so we would stretch him for 7 years and it would only be like a $4.6 million a year hit per year. That saves us like 5.55 million this year.

Or Allen, who makes over $55 million the next 3 years, could be waived and stretched and it would be a $7.77 million cap hit for 7 years, but his cap hit would go down from $16, 87 million to $7.77 millon, or $9 million in cap savings this year...and would increase the next 2 years, to savings of $10.4 million and $11.6 million.

Of course these cap hits for so many years going forward are not ideal, but with a rising cap, they are fairly minimal, and may get us under the 2nd apron.

dremill, correct me if I'm wrong and you can't stretch someone over 7 years...but I know it's double their remaining years +1 year...I'm not aware of a max timeframe.

Stretching a 3yr deal over 7yrs is fine. Hell, we're doing it with Little now

I do think those guys could be traded to avoid needing to stretch tho.

[BobbieL]

Hot take? Is it crazy that I think maybe I would have rather made this Jay Huff trade than the Mark Williams one?

I think what is crazy is they took on salary before doing what they could to remove salary for apron level possibilities and than assessing .

But Ishbia seems to do things the hard way. So they jumped at this offer, presumably, instead of assessing possibly cheaper offers

[Qwigglez]

3. If we were competitive, I wouldn't want to trade Book, but we won't be (I don't understand how this can really be debated), so I don't want to watch Book spend another 5 or 6 years leading a crappy team. He won't; want it either, eventually. I don't care if we trade him now. But I think it makes sense within a year, before the 2027 season, and preferably to Houston.

Yes, I think we can get a massive package for him. I think he is better than Bane he got 4 1sts. KD was never going to get a lot given he will be 37 next season and is injury prone. I never understood why people thought he would fetch a lot. With KD AND Book we won 36 games. Neither were injured a ton...I know you think it was entirely Bud's fault, but that's not the case. Maybe some of it, but certainly not all of it. He took Atlanta to the ECF, winning 60 games, and the Bucks to the finals.

4. I agree. We are not trading Book now. I anticipate we will trade him within the next 2 years. Preferably by next summer. Just my opinion. You don't have to like it. Doesn't matter to me. But I watched him lead a lot of bad teams and I don't want that any more and would rather get a big package for him, particularly since we don't control any of our picks until 2032.

He won't sell a lot of tickets. Did people enjoy watching this year? Maybe some, and I will enjoy next year more but not because I want to see more of Booker, but I am excited to have some youth. I don't really know why even the biggest Booker fans want him to stay and not get a chance to be a playoff guy for a good while if he stays long term, if ever. Even in the best case scenario, with massive injuries to other teams stars, and we squeeze in, we are not going to win a playoff series.

But with the state of the west, we will be very hard pressed to win 30 games. Why want to watch Book go through that? I understand that many want to live in a world we have Book and somehow win playoff series, even next year, but that's far from reality. He deserves to go somewhere he can at least compete for a title or have deep playoff runs.

I know I might be overly optimistic, but I wouldn't say the Suns are for sure not making the playoffs. Having some motivated and hungry young players makes anything possible.
How good are the Mavs going to be with D'Angelo Russell starting for most of the season before Kyrie returns? The Pelicans appear to be actively tanking and of course the Jazz are too. The Kings will probably try to be competitive, but I can't see the Suns being worse than them, but I suppose it is possible. The Wolves lost a bit of depth, the Grizzlies made some drastic changes to their starting lineup.
The only surefire teams that should be top of the Western Conference is the Thunder, Nuggets, and likely Rockets.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Hot take? Is it crazy that I think maybe I would have rather made this Jay Huff trade than the Mark Williams one?

He blocks a ton of shots, is far more durable and can hit the three. He's also on a much cheaper deal and has the Virginia connection defensively. Might have created a solid defensive duo with Dunn.

[bwgood77]

Beal has all the power and i respect him a lot. Because in the first place it wa snot his fault that he got dealt to this situation.
The Suns and Ishbia knew what they were trading for.
Ishbia gave KD the keys. And in the end he rewarded him.
It is a mystery how he made his money in the biz he is working in in the first place.
Dumb owner will be doing dumb moves all over again. No one forced him to trade for KD.
If the suns were owned by the nba the situation would be a lot better.

Imagine respecting someone that put up negative numbers on your team.

At no point in your post does it sound like you are an actual Suns fan.

Says the guy with the username TeamTragic and sports a Sonics logo.

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

I really do not understand your logic.

1. You were a giant Ayton fan and insisted he was our answer. I really got tired of your book long posts everyday protecting him. Maybe he proves worthy in LA but in Portland he was not wanted. When he was due for his 2nd contract which he signed with us he was demanding a max contract. We matched Indiana's offer to keep him, which was not a max contract and the only offer he received. He did not play up to the expectations we had for him, so he was traded to Portland. It was a bad trade because apparently, we just wanted him off the team.
2. Somehow you want to continue to keep Bradley Beal and trade Book. We had to trade a still very productive player in Durant because we could not move Beal. How does moving Book solve the Bradley Beal problem? I know you will say that it will free up money and we will get a boatload of draft picks. Well, I heard that story in regards to KD. We got players that Houston really doesn't need and ONE decent draft pick and did not free up any money. I actually liked the trade and am hopeful that Maluach turns out to be really good, but that is not a given.
3. Now you guys want to move on from Booker just because of the problems the acquisitions of KD and Beal caused. Book certainly is not perfect, but he is the best we have. The owner needs to sell tickets and at this point he is the face of the franchise, and he wants to be here.
4. We are not trading Booker. Stop the nonsense it is not happening. Just like the nonsense that went on protecting Ayton prior to the horrible trade we made with Portland. Trading Ayton was not a problem but what we included with him and received in return was horrible.
5. Wait, if we do trade Booker we free up money to keep Bradley Beal. That makes no sense.
6. When does it make sense to move your best two players so you can retain your biggest problem?
7. I would prefer that we just move Richards and O'Neale for draft picks to get under the 2nd apron. Apparently, they are not in demand, just like Beal.

All of our problem go back to the first days of the Ishbia ownership. We would be far better off if we did not make the trades for KD and Beal along with the trade of Ayton for what we received. We appear to be in the process of fixing things. The one suggested fix, trading Book, is not happening.

You are misrepresenting my thoughts and posts, though I know many probably agree with #1.

1. I was actually a huge Ayton critic early because I did not like him at AZ and he was terrible on defense. So much so that some people got so angry with me that they personally attacked me multiple times.

He did start to improve some in year 2 he defensively, and averaged more rebounds, and while still critical, I was fairly happy with the imrpovement, though for some reason he regressed efficiency wise on offense.

In year 3 he really started to improve defensively a ton, and also offensively finishing at the rim and shooting the midrange. His TS% skyrocketed from like 54% to 63% as he developed the hook shot, etc. He was a huge reason we went to the finals. I was shocked at the improvement from years 2-3.

He was in the top 10 in contested shots for 2 years, once for 2s and 3s.

Remember, this is when Chris Paul was saying he would get the bad, assuming he'd get a max extension, but he didn't.

Year 4...now he started to regress on defense, though his offense even improved more, as he shot like 80% at the rim, 59% from 3-10 ft and 55% from 10-15 ft. His TS% was 63.4%

However, in year 4 he took MASSIVE criticism from fans, so I felt it was in excess and defended him, because he had ended up a lot better player than I expected when we drafted him, and much of the criticism was dumb, like not dunking enough, or all his rebounds went right to him (now sure, some do, but that is the case with every player. Yes, some are better at contested rebound but he was always in double digits).

Anyway, he took massive blame for everything, kind of like Beal does now, even though he was still great offensively, had a lot of gravity where defenders would double and triple him opening up shooters, etc.

Then in year 5 he definitely regressed, but that was also when the whole team except him and Bridges were injured and we traded everyone mid season, so there was really no continuity.

Anyway, he had his faults, but the criticism was WAY overboard. Booker was pretty much one of the worst defenders in the NBA his first 5 years but never took any flack for not even putting in an effort there.

2. I don't care if we keep Beal or not, but I don't want to give up another one of our few assets to get rid of him OR stretch him and turn his problem into 5 years of $20 million cap hits. I'd rather just buy him out or let him come off the bench. He's still a good player. Not what he was, but good.

3. If we were competitive, I wouldn't want to trade Book, but we won't be (I don't understand how this can really be debated), so I don't want to watch Book spend another 5 or 6 years leading a crappy team. He won't; want it either, eventually. I don't care if we trade him now. But I think it makes sense within a year, before the 2027 season, and preferably to Houston.

Yes, I think we can get a massive package for him. I think he is better than Bane he got 4 1sts. KD was never going to get a lot given he will be 37 next season and is injury prone. I never understood why people thought he would fetch a lot. With KD AND Book we won 36 games. Neither were injured a ton...I know you think it was entirely Bud's fault, but that's not the case. Maybe some of it, but certainly not all of it. He took Atlanta to the ECF, winning 60 games, and the Bucks to the finals.

4. I agree. We are not trading Book now. I anticipate we will trade him within the next 2 years. Preferably by next summer. Just my opinion. You don't have to like it. Doesn't matter to me. But I watched him lead a lot of bad teams and I don't want that any more and would rather get a big package for him, particularly since we don't control any of our picks until 2032.

He won't sell a lot of tickets. Did people enjoy watching this year? Maybe some, and I will enjoy next year more but not because I want to see more of Booker, but I am excited to have some youth. I don't really know why even the biggest Booker fans want him to stay and not get a chance to be a playoff guy for a good while if he stays long term, if ever. Even in the best case scenario, with massive injuries to other teams stars, and we squeeze in, we are not going to win a playoff series.

But with the state of the west, we will be very hard pressed to win 30 games. Why want to watch Book go through that? I understand that many want to live in a world we have Book and somehow win playoff series, even next year, but that's far from reality. He deserves to go somewhere he can at least compete for a title or have deep playoff runs.

5. I don't want to trade Booker to free up money or keep Bradley Beal. Not sure where you got that.

6. When your best two players lead you to 36 wins.

7. I would also prefer we trade Richards and O'Neale and even Allen for picks. Though I don't think they'd get us picks. Maybe 2nds and an avg player. The only way we can get under the apron is to take back less money though, which requires a team to absorb extra salary, and only a couple teams have cap space I think. So probably not a lot of options.

We could also do something like waive and stretch O'Neale. He makes over $10 million a year, and about $32 million over the next 3 years, so we would stretch him for 7 years and it would only be like a $4.6 million a year hit per year. That saves us like 5.55 million this year.

Or Allen, who makes over $55 million the next 3 years, could be waived and stretched and it would be a $7.77 million cap hit for 7 years, but his cap hit would go down from $16, 87 million to $7.77 millon, or $9 million in cap savings this year...and would increase the next 2 years, to savings of $10.4 million and $11.6 million.

Of course these cap hits for so many years going forward are not ideal, but with a rising cap, they are fairly minimal, and may get us under the 2nd apron.

dremill, correct me if I'm wrong and you can't stretch someone over 7 years...but I know it's double their remaining years +1 year...I'm not aware of a max timeframe.

Stretching a 3yr deal over 7yrs is fine. Hell, we're doing it with Little now

I do think those guys could be traded to avoid needing to stretch tho.

They could be traded, but if the goal to get under the 2nd apron can another team absorb that much salary? If so, how much? I don't think that Allen contract is very good.Seems like a lot of money. I think I like O'Neale better and he's a little over half the price.

How much do we need to shed to get under the 2nd apron?

Can you stretch and waive a guy where you picked up his team option? I only ask in the case the extra $3.3 million in savings + a $9 million+ saving by waiving and stretching Allen would do it.

I don't think we really need either player, and if we trade Allen we will have to take someone else back who probably isn't any more useful, unless there is a PF that makes around the same as him and the team needs a shooter. But we need a 4 who can hit 3s since our Cs can't.

[bwgood77]

3. If we were competitive, I wouldn't want to trade Book, but we won't be (I don't understand how this can really be debated), so I don't want to watch Book spend another 5 or 6 years leading a crappy team. He won't; want it either, eventually. I don't care if we trade him now. But I think it makes sense within a year, before the 2027 season, and preferably to Houston.

Yes, I think we can get a massive package for him. I think he is better than Bane he got 4 1sts. KD was never going to get a lot given he will be 37 next season and is injury prone. I never understood why people thought he would fetch a lot. With KD AND Book we won 36 games. Neither were injured a ton...I know you think it was entirely Bud's fault, but that's not the case. Maybe some of it, but certainly not all of it. He took Atlanta to the ECF, winning 60 games, and the Bucks to the finals.

4. I agree. We are not trading Book now. I anticipate we will trade him within the next 2 years. Preferably by next summer. Just my opinion. You don't have to like it. Doesn't matter to me. But I watched him lead a lot of bad teams and I don't want that any more and would rather get a big package for him, particularly since we don't control any of our picks until 2032.

He won't sell a lot of tickets. Did people enjoy watching this year? Maybe some, and I will enjoy next year more but not because I want to see more of Booker, but I am excited to have some youth. I don't really know why even the biggest Booker fans want him to stay and not get a chance to be a playoff guy for a good while if he stays long term, if ever. Even in the best case scenario, with massive injuries to other teams stars, and we squeeze in, we are not going to win a playoff series.

But with the state of the west, we will be very hard pressed to win 30 games. Why want to watch Book go through that? I understand that many want to live in a world we have Book and somehow win playoff series, even next year, but that's far from reality. He deserves to go somewhere he can at least compete for a title or have deep playoff runs.

I know I might be overly optimistic, but I wouldn't say the Suns are for sure not making the playoffs. Having some motivated and hungry young players makes anything possible.
How good are the Mavs going to be with D'Angelo Russell starting for most of the season before Kyrie returns? The Pelicans appear to be actively tanking and of course the Jazz are too. The Kings will probably try to be competitive, but I can't see the Suns being worse than them, but I suppose it is possible. The Wolves lost a bit of depth, the Grizzlies made some drastic changes to their starting lineup.
The only surefire teams that should be top of the Western Conference is the Thunder, Nuggets, and likely Rockets.

I think the Mavs could easily be 3rd. Kyrie is projected to be back in January. DLo isn't great but a frontcourt rotation of AD/Lively/Gafford with and a 3/4 rotation of AD/PJ Washington/Flagg.

Then Klay has regressed but he can still get hot shooting. With Kyrie I think they could compete with anyone. With DLo it's their one weak spot, but other guys can handle, including Flagg and AD, as well as Max Christie and Naji Marshall.

They also have Caleb Martin. They have another rookie PG on a 2 way, Nembhard...the brother of the one in Indy, though he's small.

I mean, do you really think our roster is even close to their's?

What is our projected starting lineup? Most teams won't play rookies much. I hope we play ours quite a bit.

But Jalen Green, Book, Mark Williams...is Dunn starting at 4. Is Book starting at 3? Or are we going with one of Royce or Allen again? Our bench will likely be mostly rookies. I guess Nigel Hayes may start?

I liked our draft and I like adding Mark Williams, but I don't think they nearly make up the difference of losing KD.

We actually have a lot more talent if we do keep Beal. Other teams would LOVE to have him as a 6th man. Some would probably start him. His contrat is awful but that doesn't mean he doesn't have talent or play hard on both ends...and without KD he could maybe step up.

I think we'd have a better chance of being better than the LA teams than Dallas, but a team with LeBron and Luka and another with Harden and Kawhi are tough if healthy. Though they likely both will deal with injuries.

But that still leaves the Thunder, Rockets, Wolves, Nuggets, Warriors, Spurs, Grizzlies and Mavs. I suppose you maybe think aside from Dallas, we may be better than the Spurs and Grizzlies too?

Funny thing is I was/am going to put up a poll and thought we will have 1 or 2 votes for 60+ wins...Qwigglez and maybe Raising AZ, but now that I mention, probably more.