Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[Buff]

ROY is meaningless. It was a weak year, too. And he didn't win ROY because he was a good scorer, so it's also not salient to subject.

My point is for someone who sucks as bad as you remind us ad nauseum... he even ranked as the best of his peers!

Because people like counting stats, yes. And even then, he was a below-average-efficiency scorer. Great defender. Excellent rebounder. Pretty good playmaker, too. Lots to like about Scottie. Scoring, however, is very much not one of those things, that's all.

So he is a great player only that he will not "excel"... gotcha.

[Tacoma]

Read on Twitter

Scottie is a guy that refuses to stick to his strengths and has terrible shot selection.

If he attempted less threes and more mid range jumpers, he’d be a lot more effective (and efficient).

Just last year, Masai remarked about Barnes:

"I want our fans to know the most difficult [type of player to get] are the guys like Scottie... I think the most difficult thing to do when you do things like this is finding the Scottie Barneses of the world and we’re lucky to have a really good young player like this to build around.”

Thus I don't think it has to do with Barnes not sticking to his strengths as much as Masai had anointed Barnes to be our franchise cornerstone player to build around and so in order for him to be that guy, he must develop his weak areas as well, so Barnes is doing what Raptors wanted him to do.

Before Masai's firing, I had said I expected the Raptors to continue developing Barnes next season in the same way as before, but now that Masai is gone, it's going to be interesting if they change tactics towards Barnes' development and have him mainly stick to his strengths.

[S.W.A.N]

Read on Twitter

Scottie is a guy that refuses to stick to his strengths and has terrible shot selection.

If he attempted less threes and more mid range jumpers, he’d be a lot more effective (and efficient).

Just last year, Masai remarked about Barnes:

"I want our fans to know the most difficult [type of player to get] are the guys like Scottie... I think the most difficult thing to do when you do things like this is finding the Scottie Barneses of the world and we’re lucky to have a really good young player like this to build around.”

Thus I don't think it has to do with Barnes not sticking to his strengths as much as Masai had anointed Barnes to be our franchise cornerstone player to build around and so in order for him to be that guy, he must develop his weak areas as well, so Barnes is doing what Raptors wanted him to do.

Before Masai's firing, I had said I expected the Raptors to continue developing Barnes next season in the same way as before, but now that Masai is gone, it's going to be interesting if they change tactics towards Barnes' development and have him mainly stick to his strengths.

I think it worth nothing that in a tank year, no one is going to tell Scottie to not try the hard shots. You want him working on that stuff when the stakes are low.

This year he can refine his game around BI. Playing off the ball more should give him more of the types of shots we want to see. And with the clear push towards being a defense first team, Scottie should see a clear path to making a run at defensive player of the year. (not saying he'd get it, but a great goal for him to shoot for).

[tsherkin]

My point is for someone who sucks as bad as you remind us ad nauseum... he even ranked as the best of his peers!

That isn't a positive, that's a criticism of the draft class and its first year, honestly.

But again, with Scottie, it's all fairly specific. He does a LOT very well. He is a good player. He just isn't a good scorer. As long as we deploy him well, then we can extract strong value from him, but if we keep ramming our head into a wall trying to make him into a scorer, we will continue undercutting his utility, that's all.

[MEDIC]

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This is why I have made KG comparisons stylistically. Mid range post ups/ fade aways & defense are his bread and butter.

[tsherkin]

This is why I have made KG comparisons stylistically. Mid range post ups/ fade aways & defense are his bread and butter.

KG comparison for who?

[Nature]

He is Andre Iguodala/Shawn Marion.

Great player. Every winning team needs one. But that's what he is. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[tsherkin]

He is Andre Iguodala/Shawn Marion.

Great player. Every winning team needs one. But that's what he is. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Not sure where you see Marion. Shawn didn't have the same power, was CONSIDERABLY more athletic and was also a better shooter. He also didn't play anything like Scottie, and was a phenomenal off-ball guy with his cuts and routes in transition. AAAND a better offensive rebounder.

Iggy was also more athletic, but they come a little closer in terms of mixing defense and playmaking, although Iggy also forgot how to hit free throws after like his third season in the league.

[bluerap23]

Scottie is a guy that refuses to stick to his strengths and has terrible shot selection.

If he attempted less threes and more mid range jumpers, he’d be a lot more effective (and efficient).

Just last year, Masai remarked about Barnes:

"I want our fans to know the most difficult [type of player to get] are the guys like Scottie... I think the most difficult thing to do when you do things like this is finding the Scottie Barneses of the world and we’re lucky to have a really good young player like this to build around.”

Thus I don't think it has to do with Barnes not sticking to his strengths as much as Masai had anointed Barnes to be our franchise cornerstone player to build around and so in order for him to be that guy, he must develop his weak areas as well, so Barnes is doing what Raptors wanted him to do.

Before Masai's firing, I had said I expected the Raptors to continue developing Barnes next season in the same way as before, but now that Masai is gone, it's going to be interesting if they change tactics towards Barnes' development and have him mainly stick to his strengths.

I think it worth nothing that in a tank year, no one is going to tell Scottie to not try the hard shots. You want him working on that stuff when the stakes are low.

This year he can refine his game around BI. Playing off the ball more should give him more of the types of shots we want to see. And with the clear push towards being a defense first team, Scottie should see a clear path to making a run at defensive player of the year. (not saying he'd get it, but a great goal for him to shoot for).

Exactly. Last year was his opportunity to get reps in a season where they were trying to lose. This is the year I expect to see the leap.

[alpngso]

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[Los_29]

Hope Scottie’s usage goes way down next season. With IQ and BI healthy, Scottie will be our 3rd best scorer. Less responsibility on offense will hopefully help him shine in what he does best.

[anotherhomer]

He is Andre Iguodala/Shawn Marion.

Great player. Every winning team needs one. But that's what he is. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Not sure where you see Marion. Shawn didn't have the same power, was CONSIDERABLY more athletic and was also a better shooter. He also didn't play anything like Scottie, and was a phenomenal off-ball guy with his cuts and routes in transition. AAAND a better offensive rebounder.

Iggy was also more athletic, but they come a little closer in terms of mixing defense and playmaking, although Iggy also forgot how to hit free throws after like his third season in the league.

draymond green/boris diaw/iguodala, pippen type guy....not bad, but not a max player in this cap era

[HangTime]

I think Scottie's skillset is so diverse, that it's scares people, different people see different things, sort like a
Rorschach test.

Scottie is a point guard at heart.

Some see a power forward, some see point forward. Rookie season people were saying to stick at centre.


I think he's a "Power-Point"

Give him time to work on his scoring. All those others guys have natural scoring tendencies, and are able to "slack off" on defence.

[tsherkin]

draymond green/boris diaw/iguodala, pippen type guy....not bad, but not a max player in this cap era

Not sure how that relates to Marion with those comparisons, but yeah, definitely not a max player. And yes, not bad. If Scottie can find a situation where his lack of range isn't an issue and he can dial down his shooting volume, that'd be ideal. If he can learn how to screen and be a proper roll man, so much the better.

I think Scottie's skillset is so diverse, that it's scares people, different people see different things, sort like a
Rorschach test.

Scottie is a point guard at heart.

Some see a power forward, some see point forward. Rookie season people were saying to stick at centre.


I think he's a "Power-Point"

Give him time to work on his scoring. All those others guys have natural scoring tendencies, and are able to "slack off" on defence.

Giving him MORE time to work on his scoring doesn't make any sense. Dude needs to learn how to screen and be the roll man. He needs to watch Denver Aaron Gordon, a LOT, and pray that he can develop from the corner. That's the type of player he is, but with a higher defensive ceiling and less athleticism.

Even AG handles across the timeline sometimes, and of course Scottie's pretty good at grabbing a DRB and keying the break. We should obviously keep letting him do that.

But there's no real reason to keep forcing scoring possessions to him in volume. We should be looking to curb that now that IQ is back and BI is incoming. It doesn't make sense to give Barnes 15+ FGA/g when he wastes them. We should likewise see at least some level of reduction from Barrett as well, for the same reason. They both have obvious limitations. We need to play towards their strengths and limit the impact of their deficiencies.

[LoveMyRaps]

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That 3pt stroke does look good though..

[tsherkin]

[

That 3pt stroke does look good though..

Hope it translates. Hope he's learned how to set a screen, too. Him being better is obviously a benefit for us, but offseason workout videos are cheap, and even I can show you a clip of me hitting a three with no defender on me. I just, you know, need more takes. xD

[HangTime]

draymond green/boris diaw/iguodala, pippen type guy....not bad, but not a max player in this cap era

Not sure how that relates to Marion with those comparisons, but yeah, definitely not a max player. And yes, not bad. If Scottie can find a situation where his lack of range isn't an issue and he can dial down his shooting volume, that'd be ideal. If he can learn how to screen and be a proper roll man, so much the better.

I think Scottie's skillset is so diverse, that it's scares people, different people see different things, sort like a
Rorschach test.

Scottie is a point guard at heart.

Some see a power forward, some see point forward. Rookie season people were saying to stick at centre.


I think he's a "Power-Point"

Give him time to work on his scoring. All those others guys have natural scoring tendencies, and are able to "slack off" on defence.

Giving him MORE time to work on his scoring doesn't make any sense. Dude needs to learn how to screen and be the roll man. He needs to watch Denver Aaron Gordon, a LOT, and pray that he can develop from the corner. That's the type of player he is, but with a higher defensive ceiling and less athleticism.

Even AG handles across the timeline sometimes, and of course Scottie's pretty good at grabbing a DRB and keying the break. We should obviously keep letting him do that.

But there's no real reason to keep forcing scoring possessions to him in volume. We should be looking to curb that now that IQ is back and BI is incoming. It doesn't make sense to give Barnes 15+ FGA/g when he wastes them. We should likewise see at least some level of reduction from Barrett as well, for the same reason. They both have obvious limitations. We need to play towards their strengths and limit the impact of their deficiencies.

No, not a lot of Aaron Gordon, a little bit sure.

You do realize why it looked "bad" last year.

I want would him to work on the scoring.

We are adding more "experienced" players this season, BI, CMB, Mamu. You might not think they provide a lot, but it's much, much, better than what we had last year (and those guys are getting better too).

Again, this why I think people are to quick to box Scottie into a specific role.

Last season the team had him play with a "weighted vest", try and turn a facilitator into a scorer. Sure there were tough moments, but you can see the intentions, you can see the process.
There was no pressure to win.

This up coming season, the weighted vest is off, and I think you'll see, what I am envisioning.
We're trying to win, remember in rookie season when we were trying to win.

That first playoff game vs Philly, that level play, being fearless. I believe that "zoned-in level' is still there, we still see it against the best.

[Boogie!]

Every year I see this ****. Last year he was a historically bad 3 point shooter.

[tsherkin]

No, not a lot of Aaron Gordon, a little bit sure.

A ton. How to move off-ball, how to screen, how to move in transition, etc. Certainly not the stuff Scottie can't do athletically, but how to fit into the offensive flow, for sure.

You do realize why it looked "bad" last year.

Yeah, because he's been bad at scoring the entire time and then he was asked to carry a load beyond his capacity, for sure.

I want would him to work on the scoring.

Yeah. Corner 3s, screens, roll action, cutting around on-ball action, that sort of thing. Attacking in transition and in the secondary break with a live dribble, sure. But he should move away from face-up action and dribble attack and worry more about PnR and post offense, because he doesn't really belong on the perimeter.

We are adding more "experienced" players this season, BI, CMB, Mamu. You might not think they provide a lot, but it's much, much, better than what we had last year (and those guys are getting better too).

I have spent months talking about the potential value over having Quick back and BI incoming, and have already had positive remarks about Mamu, so I'm not sure where you think I don't believe they'll be beneficial.

Again, this why I think people are to quick to box Scottie into a specific role.

It's the 4 years of limited progress, coupled to the traits he does and doesn't have, more so.

This up coming season, the weighted vest is off, and I think you'll see, what I am envisioning.

We almost assuredly will not, no.

Scottie isn't That Guy. It's fine. Those types of players are very rare. And endlessly forcing the issue isn't sensible.

We have no good reason to run him the ball as a top-2 shooting option in this offensive environment while trying to win in the upcoming season. 12, 13 FGA/g? That's pretty reasonable, given that he's going to need to touch the ball to take advantage of his passing, and there's a reasonable chance he might score around league-average efficiency with better spacing...

But keep in mind, we had OG, Fred, Trent and OPJ in his second season (though team-wide, the overall shooting wasn't good), and he was as inefficient on 13 FGA/g as he was this past season. There isn't really any objective reason to be excited about his scoring potential. There isn't a good reason for Darko to feed him the ball at a level comparable to the 2025 season, either.

We know a lot about what Scottie is and isn't good at by this point in his career. We have a pretty good bead on what role we do not need him to try and fill. And that's volume scoring. There's no reason to push the issue. Play him at the 4, let him handle in transition and give it up if we get into our halfcourt set, and otherwise focus on defense and rebounding. He's good at those things. We don't need to develop him as a scorer, we have better options on the team, and we are into competitive mode now. He'll be very useful to us, and the more so if we don't try this square peg-round hole everyone seems to love so much with him.

[DreamTeam09]

Watch on YouTube

This guy touches on Scottie shooting the 3 this summer and pulled up some shooting splits for some of our players.

Ingram took a lot/made alot of his 3s on the left side of the court
RJ was effective on the right side of the court from 3 and around the basket
Scottie did a lot of above the break stuff from 3 and was effective around the basket
Ingram doesn't operate much in the corners
Scottie was effective from the left corner 3
RJ right corner 3