Was Hakeem Olajuwon's post-up game a little overrated?

[Cavsfansince84]

If you just look at the rs then maybe yes but the thing about Hakeem is how he could raise his game in the post season. That's what makes him the legend he is. 33.4ppg over the course of an entire title run in 95.

Right here, though, stop. Because he didn't score 33 ppg in just the post. He had breadth to his scoring game which extended beyond the post, so the notion of his broader scoring average isn't material to this thread.

He did all of that as an undersized center for his era.

He wasn't at all undersized.

I wasn't really trying to insinuate that he scored all those points in just the post. That was just a big part of his overall game. Anyone who saw Hakeem much at all knows he also had a strong midrange game and could get things like put backs.

[tsherkin]

I wasn't really trying to insinuate that he scored all those points in just the post. That was just a big part of his overall game. Anyone who saw Hakeem much at all knows he also had a strong midrange game and could get things like put backs.

But that's sort of the point. MANY people are discussing his broader volume and PS success far too much, with basically no attention paid to HOW he did that. Implying/assuming he played exclusively in the post, which is wrong. Olajuwon was devastating because he would get the ball and initiate his own offense from a fairly wide variety of positions and ranges, and could create off the bounce. In fact, the whole Dream Shake everyone loves so much is a baseline face-up action initiated with a dribble drive.

It's just frustrating reading a lot of the nonsense ITT, so it was probably less to do with you, I suspect xD

[Cavsfansince84]

But that's sort of the point. MANY people are discussing his broader volume and PS success far too much, with basically no attention paid to HOW he did that. Implying/assuming he played exclusively in the post, which is wrong. Olajuwon was devastating because he would get the ball and initiate his own offense from a fairly wide variety of positions and ranges, and could create off the bounce. In fact, the whole Dream Shake everyone loves so much is a baseline face-up action initiated with a dribble drive.

It's just frustrating reading a lot of the nonsense ITT, so it was probably less to do with you, I suspect xD

Well part of that is if you count him getting the ball on the baseline like 12 from the basket as a post up game. I sort of would if we're limiting to just back to the basket in the low post then that's different. It did seem like the op was referencing his overall offensive game to some degree.

[tsherkin]

Well part of that is if you count him getting the ball on the baseline like 12 from the basket as a post up game. I sort of would if we're limiting to just back to the basket in the low post then that's different. It did seem like the op was referencing his overall offensive game to some degree.

Title of the post is "post-up game" very specifically, and then specifically referenced "back to the basket game" in the post content, so no, we are definitely talking about post-ups, not "overall offensive game."

[Cavsfansince84]

Well part of that is if you count him getting the ball on the baseline like 12 from the basket as a post up game. I sort of would if we're limiting to just back to the basket in the low post then that's different. It did seem like the op was referencing his overall offensive game to some degree.

Title of the post is "post-up game" very specifically, and then specifically referenced "back to the basket game" in the post content, so no, we are definitely talking about post-ups, not "overall offensive game."

Well tbh, when people do talk about Hakeem's overall moves and skill its usually with regard to all the moves like the Dream shake that he could utilize anywhere from about 10-12 ft in which could lead to either a dunk, 3 ft shot or a 10 foot fadeaway. He blended all of those together. So I think its an inaccurate portrayal of his skill set to say he's known for his low post moves. He's known for having a great repertoire from different spots near the basket and when guys go to him to learn he isn't just showing them back to the basket moves near the basket.

[tsherkin]

Well tbh, when people do talk about Hakeem's overall moves and skill its usually with regard to all the moves like the Dream shake that he could utilize anywhere from about 10-12 ft in which could lead to either a dunk, 3 ft shot or a 10 foot fadeaway. He blended all of those together. So I think its an inaccurate portrayal of his skill set to say he's known for his low post moves. He's known for having a great repertoire from different spots near the basket and when guys go to him to learn he isn't just showing them back to the basket moves near the basket.

He did a great job of transitioning phase on offense, that's very true. And part of why he's an ATG, no doubt. The thing has never been to diminish Olajuwon; it's to attack the inane position that he's unassailable and that it is impossible that his post game (specifically) is a little overrated relative to some of the other guys out there when people start calling him the best ever at post play.

[Cavsfansince84]

He did a great job of transitioning phase on offense, that's very true. And part of why he's an ATG, no doubt. The thing has never been to diminish Olajuwon; it's to attack the inane position that he's unassailable and that it is impossible that his post game (specifically) is a little overrated relative to some of the other guys out there when people start calling him the best ever at post play.

I think anyone talking him up as a low post guy would be starting from a flawed premise. Which the op honestly alludes to and then brings up fg% which is not limited to low post shots. So to me that in itself references his all around game.

[tsherkin]

I think anyone talking him up as a low post guy would be starting from a flawed premise. Which the op honestly alludes to and then brings up fg% which is not limited to low post shots. So to me that in itself references his all around game.

Sure, it's a component, but...

Title: "Was Hakeem Olajuwon's post-up game a little overrated?"

Revisiting the OP:

"And yet, he's often considered the best in the post. My personal opinion is that, while still one of the pivot greats, his post-up game was overrated due to its aesthetic appeal. No one has a prettier low-post highlight reel than The Dream."

"IMO, what hurt his back-to-the-basket game was shot selection and, to a lesser degree, passing. He wasn't as good at getting the high-percentage looks, often settling for that tough baseline fadeaway jump shot. His touch in the paint was very good, but a level below Jokic, McHale, Dantley, and Kareem—the gold standards. He wasn't a huge foul drawer, and his FT% was below league average."


This is all post talk. It's about quality of look in the paint, relying on the fade, not drawing fouls as well as others because he settled for the J, weakness as a passer from the pivot. "Post-up, pivot, back-to-the-basket."

We are inescapably discussing his post play.

[Cavsfansince84]

Sure, it's a component, but...

Title: "Was Hakeem Olajuwon's post-up game a little overrated?"

Revisiting the OP:

"And yet, he's often considered the best in the post. My personal opinion is that, while still one of the pivot greats, his post-up game was overrated due to its aesthetic appeal. No one has a prettier low-post highlight reel than The Dream."

"IMO, what hurt his back-to-the-basket game was shot selection and, to a lesser degree, passing. He wasn't as good at getting the high-percentage looks, often settling for that tough baseline fadeaway jump shot. His touch in the paint was very good, but a level below Jokic, McHale, Dantley, and Kareem—the gold standards. He wasn't a huge foul drawer, and his FT% was below league average."


This is all post talk. It's about quality of look in the paint, relying on the fade, not drawing fouls as well as others because he settled for the J, weakness as a passer from the pivot. "Post-up, pivot, back-to-the-basket."

We are inescapably discussing his post play.

Ok and if we are talking about things like fadeaways then its totally relevant to what I have said here. I mean I'm just commenting and further stating that his ability to take on larger volumes from all these areas in higher %'s in the playoffs is part of why he's seen as so legendary. The op brought up fg% as a measuring stick and so it's very relevant to the point I made. If you disagree that's fine but it's like you are hung up on the idea of low post play and that's your own thing imo. Life goes on.

[tsherkin]

Ok and if we are talking about things like fadeaways then its totally relevant to what I have said here

Depending on how he got into the fadeaway and at what distance he took it, but yes, post fadeaways are very much a thing, I am compelled to agree.

. I mean I'm just commenting and further stating that his ability to take on larger volumes from all these areas in higher %'s in the playoffs is part of why he's seen as so legendary. The op brought up fg% as a measuring stick and so it's very relevant to the point I made. If you disagree that's fine but it's like you are hung up on the idea of low post play and that's your own thing imo. Life goes on.

I never said "low post" at any point. The OP spoke of back-to-the-basket play. I just said "post play." And Olajuwon started possessions well away from the post quite often.

[jfs1000d]

His shooting percentages (FG%, 2PT%, TS%) were never as high as Shaq's, Kareem's, Barkley's, Dantley's, Wilt's, Jokic's, and McHale's. And yet, he's often considered the best in the post. My personal opinion is that, while still one of the pivot greats, his post-up game was overrated due to its aesthetic appeal. No one has a prettier low-post highlight reel than The Dream.

IMO, what hurt his back-to-the-basket game was shot selection and, to a lesser degree, passing. He wasn't as good at getting the high-percentage looks, often settling for that tough baseline fadeaway jump shot. His touch in the paint was very good, but a level below Jokic, McHale, Dantley, and Kareem—the gold standards. He wasn't a huge foul drawer, and his FT% was below league average.

Dream was incredible. Ya gotta watch games. This is how people sometimes make wrong decisions on players by taking stats out of context.


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[Johnny Bball]

Stop comparing numbers from era to era and think they apply the same way. They don't.

[og15]

Stop comparing numbers from era to era and think they apply the same way. They don't.

To be fair to OP, he listed: Shaq's, Kareem's, Barkley's, Dantley's, Wilt's, Jokic's, and McHale's

4 of those guys are at least half of their career 80's / 90's guys (Dantley, Shaq, McHale, Barkley), Kareem spanned 70's and 80's, Wilt was 60's, and then Jokic is the modern guy. So adding Hakeem who is the comparison, that still leaves 5 of the 8 players being talked about being mainly 80's/90's guys, and Kareem being 70's / 80's where the eras aren't too far off. Wilt as a 60's guy is arguably disadvantaged from a pure FG% pov as basketball had not learned efficient shots as well yet, and there was still a lot of development in terms of types of shots being taken.

I don't know if the numbers are really a problem for this one for most of the players being cited

[Onlytimewilltel]

If you just look at the rs then maybe yes but the thing about Hakeem is how he could raise his game in the post season. That's what makes him the legend he is. 33.4ppg over the course of an entire title run in 95.

Right here, though, stop. Because he didn't score 33 ppg in just the post. He had breadth to his scoring game which extended beyond the post, so the notion of his broader scoring average isn't material to this thread.

He did all of that as an undersized center for his era.

He wasn't at all undersized.

you’re posting like paragraphs and books all over the damn forum, where do you find the time? Retired I’m guessing? Kudos.

Anyway, he said Hakeem averaged 33 in those playoffs not that he scored them all in the post. You’re nitpicking every single thing and twisting it negatively lol. Hakeem is one of the best playoff risers of all time and in a lot of people’s opinions he was the best post up moves player/face up game around the basket and out further as well that they’ve seen as expressed here.

You don’t have to agree with them. And people don’t have to agree with you either. A lot of people think he’s the best with those moves or at least top 3 or 4 or so. You don’t. Cool.

None of those other centers and low post moves guys carried teams that Hakeem did to titles against top opposition especially at his own position. Everyone else had more talented teams around them IN MY OPINION.

MVPs pay Hakeem good money to learn moves from him lol. I can’t really agree that his post game is overrated.

[Masigond]

MVPs pay Hakeem good money to learn moves from him lol. I can’t really agree that his post game is overrated.

Of course they do. That's the way to improve their own game in the post. Still if there were a way to emulate Shaq, they would pay him, but Shaq's natural athleticism and size can't be learned.

It has been said again and again: Hakeem was the most skilled. But as there were other players who were bigger (Shaq most of all) or who had even more efficient moves (Kareem with the Sky Hook) one can debate that Hakeem was not the best post up scorer of all time as others needed fewer shots to score as many points as Hakeem.
Olajuwon made up for this by being able to add other aspects of his own scoring, but scoring in other ways than post up scoring doesn't make him the better post up scorer, right?

Again: That doesn't take anything away from Hakeem as an overall player. The combination of being unstoppable from creating scoring opportunities for himself (due to his versatility and of course his almost unparalleled footwork (plus speed) and bag of moves especially with his defense makes him one of the best centers ever without any doubt.
But you are ignoring that there are several ways to rate a post game: Is Hakeem's the most stylistic pleasing? Very likely. Is he the most versatile post up player of all time? Not that sure as there are some others (who then might not have had the same physical gifts as Hakeem), but quite arguable (at least concerning the combination of skills and athleticism he is almost unparalleled). Is he the best in terms of putting the ball into the basket by post up play? Quite arguably no! Because there have been others who were even more effective and efficient than him in that area due to more strength and size (Shaq) or a move that was even more perfected (Kareem).
The latter view is what's debated here again and again. Some users' (like you) fallback to the other view how to rate and compare the post up game leaves the impression that they don't understand the difference between versatility and efficacy. Some definitely have not read anything of the arguments so that the debate is going around in circles. Which is quite annoying.
Or they have an agenda and complete unwillingness to accept that some narratives (like Hakeem being the best post up scorer ever) can be argued. Again: There are multiple ways to rate a player or parts of his game.
Take Jason Williams as an example who has the legitimation to being the most entertaining passer ever. Is he then the best playmaker in NBA's history as well? Quite likely no: He was too erratic, and there is quite a bunch of other PGs (and even players playing other positions) who had a better efficacy. So is J-Will the best passer ever? Not from every angle that this topic can be addressed. And that was the OP's take from the get-go as well concerning Hakeem as being rated the best post up scorer ever.

[RSP83]

Hakeem's offensive game/style was distinct compared to his peers during his time. He has the deepest bag among Cs I've seen play. Embiid is really the closest.

Hakeem's game was very distinct because all Cs at the time relied on power moves, while Hakeem combined that with more finesse moves. Hakeem didn't have Shaq's girth, DRob's athleticism, or Kareem's length. Hakeem was actually a bit smaller compared to his peers, he's closer to 6'10" than 7'0". Guys like Ewing, DRob, Shaq was a solid 7 footer. So he uses his agility and footwork to match up with those guys. I like to see his head-to-head stats against top centers when they match-up.

Hakeem's post-up game is not overrated, especially if you consider Embiid's post up game elite (which I believe so). Hakeem was as good as Embiid if not better. If Hakeem still play today he would've been able to shoot more 3s like Embiid. He's the only player from all centers in history who I can see do that and would transition easily to today's game.

[Sane]

People don't understand: once you have the low post figured out then there's no shot you can add to your game that won't reduce your FG% but you need those shots to climb the ranks of all time great post players. C's are always trying to add these lower FG% shots to their games as counter moves. To judge Hakeem on those things because his game was at an advanced level early in his career is ridiculous.

You can cut those moves out of his game and raise his FG% but then you would not have the two titles. You would know that if you watched the games. You're not outplaying Shaq and Robinson without the counter moves. Robinson and Shaq would have loved to take those lower FG% moves out of Hakeem's game - making him one dimensional.

[tsherkin]

you’re posting like paragraphs and books all over the damn forum, where do you find the time? Retired I’m guessing? Kudos.

No, I just type fast and have a weird schedule.

Anyway, he said Hakeem averaged 33 in those playoffs not that he scored them all in the post. You’re nitpicking every single thing and twisting it negatively lol.

No I'm not. I'm an IMMENSE Hakeem fan, but people are reacting with insufferable hyperbole and disbelief to the very IDEA that he might not be the best post player ever, and I'm combatting that reaction, because it's non-sensical garbage. That doesn't mean I'm trying to say he was a BAD, or mediocre, post player. His ARRAY of moves was clearly among the most advanced, and by his prime, he had a beautifully complete scoring game which could flow smoothly from perimeter offense into post offense. About all he lacked was a 3-ball, or for the time, a really DEEP two. He was exceptional.

You don’t have to agree with them. And people don’t have to agree with you either. A lot of people think he’s the best with those moves or at least top 3 or 4 or so. You don’t. Cool.

I can see AN argument for it. What I dislike is people categorically denying the POSSIBILITY that he is not the first above all others.

None of those other centers and low post moves guys carried teams that Hakeem did to titles against top opposition especially at his own position. Everyone else had more talented teams around them IN MY OPINION.

This is a disingenuous opinion, though, because it was much more than his post offense which carried his team to the title. Aside from the roleplayer contribution, it was a mix of his defense and his game AWAY from the post, which is my point. This is an irrelevant remark.

MVPs pay Hakeem good money to learn moves from him lol. I can’t really agree that his post game is overrated.

I mean, you have to understand that in context, "overrated" doesn't mean "not actually very good," it means people are rating his game too highly and turning it into something sacrosanct and untouchable, which it wasn't.

[chuck_wagon44]

If you just look at the rs then maybe yes but the thing about Hakeem is how he could raise his game in the post season. That's what makes him the legend he is. 33.4ppg over the course of an entire title run in 95.

Right here, though, stop. Because he didn't score 33 ppg in just the post. He had breadth to his scoring game which extended beyond the post, so the notion of his broader scoring average isn't material to this thread.

He did all of that as an undersized center for his era.

He wasn't at all undersized.

He was 6'10'' max.

Jordan used to joke around and call him 6'8'' or 6'9''

[Mr B]

His shooting percentages (FG%, 2PT%, TS%) were never as high as Shaq's, Kareem's, Barkley's, Dantley's, Wilt's, Jokic's, and McHale's. And yet, he's often considered the best in the post. My personal opinion is that, while still one of the pivot greats, his post-up game was overrated due to its aesthetic appeal. No one has a prettier low-post highlight reel than The Dream.

IMO, what hurt his back-to-the-basket game was shot selection and, to a lesser degree, passing. He wasn't as good at getting the high-percentage looks, often settling for that tough baseline fadeaway jump shot. His touch in the paint was very good, but a level below Jokic, McHale, Dantley, and Kareem—the gold standards. He wasn't a huge foul drawer, and his FT% was below league average.

Actually watch him play and you will have your answer.