Is it possible Stockton's steals and assist numbers were juiced just like MJs steals/blocks were?

[Hair Jordan]

I always found it weird that Stockton gets crap about fake assists, when nearly every player on the Top 10 list has more assists at home than they do on the road. The only one who doesn't? Steve Nash. And maybe Oscar Robertson, since they don't have splits for him, but I kinda doubt it. And it's not like Stockton's 0.8 more at home is all that out of the norm. Kidd, Magic and Zeke both averaged 1 more assist at home than on the road...which btw isn't all that shocking either.

The main thingh with jordan was specifically the 88 season which was a really really wild spike compared to previous and later seasons and in the games that now infamous article tracked, was completely driven by a fairly absurd difference in home vs away games and iirc some games the sampling found less steals by jordan than the rival team had turnovers in the official statsheer

There will always be sampling issues (as it would be impossible for time or sheer game availability) that prevent getting the actual 82 game tracking so there is a fair deal of margin for error and maybe the author happened to track a outlier sample of jordan home games where he went bananas with steals and blocks, but the data is fairly odd to look at

There is other stuff there, jordan increasing his steals and blocks (related to defense effort and energy spent on defense) in a year he had such a big offensive load (why didnt he ever come to replicate it again in seasons with a smaller offense load?)

Pippen commenting back in the day that lots of his steals got credited to jordan for picking the ball up after pippen poked it

The fact said spike coincided with the year where jordan complained to the media after 87 that michael cooper got dpoy instead of him despite less steals and blocks

It is a rather suspicious total

It also doesnt mean all thst much, jordan was a high steals/blocks guard regardless, he was a great defender regardless, he probably shouldnt have been dpoy regardless as honestly doesnt any guard (let alone nba giving almost all its dpoy's to guards in a decade where defense was so much more driven by bigs that today)

How is Jordan’s 1987-88 steals and block totals suspicious? He had 259 steals and 131 blocks. The previous season (1986-87) when Jordan didn’t even make 1st OR 2nd Team All Defense - he recorded 236 steals and 125 blocks. So in his DPOTY campaign - he improved by 23 steals and 6 blocks. That’s suspicious? If the Bulls statistician was trying to cook Jordan’s totals to help him win DPOTY - he did a really shi-ty job. It seems more plausible that Jordan just maxed out that year since his totals were marginally (steals) and fractionally (blocks) better than the previous year. Jordan also recorded 227 steals in 1989-90 (led league) and 221 steals in 1992-93 (led league). 259 was his career high year (1987-88) which seems obvious if you remember how active he was as a 25 year old. He was all over the court - all the time. The motor Jordan had in 1986-87 and 1987-88 was arguably the best in history. It’s not like his career high in steals and blocks were 150/75 and then he got 259/131 the following season. That would be suspicious. Again, he increased his steals and blocks totals by just +23/+6 from the previous season. That’s hardly noteworthy. The Haberstroh article was an obvious hit piece with the sole intention of devaluing Jordan’s DPOTY trophy because Lebron never got one. So effin lame

[falcolombardi]

I always found it weird that Stockton gets crap about fake assists, when nearly every player on the Top 10 list has more assists at home than they do on the road. The only one who doesn't? Steve Nash. And maybe Oscar Robertson, since they don't have splits for him, but I kinda doubt it. And it's not like Stockton's 0.8 more at home is all that out of the norm. Kidd, Magic and Zeke both averaged 1 more assist at home than on the road...which btw isn't all that shocking either.

The main thingh with jordan was specifically the 88 season which was a really really wild spike compared to previous and later seasons and in the games that now infamous article tracked, was completely driven by a fairly absurd difference in home vs away games and iirc some games the sampling found less steals by jordan than the rival team had turnovers in the official statsheer

There will always be sampling issues (as it would be impossible for time or sheer game availability) that prevent getting the actual 82 game tracking so there is a fair deal of margin for error and maybe the author happened to track a outlier sample of jordan home games where he went bananas with steals and blocks, but the data is fairly odd to look at

There is other stuff there, jordan increasing his steals and blocks (related to defense effort and energy spent on defense) in a year he had such a big offensive load (why didnt he ever come to replicate it again in seasons with a smaller offense load?)

Pippen commenting back in the day that lots of his steals got credited to jordan for picking the ball up after pippen poked it

The fact said spike coincided with the year where jordan complained to the media after 87 that michael cooper got dpoy instead of him despite less steals and blocks

It is a rather suspicious total

It also doesnt mean all thst much, jordan was a high steals/blocks guard regardless, he was a great defender regardless, he probably shouldnt have been dpoy regardless as honestly doesnt any guard (let alone nba giving almost all its dpoy's to guards in a decade where defense was so much more driven by bigs that today)

How is Jordan’s 1987-88 steals and block totals suspicious? He had 259 steals and 131 blocks. The previous season (1986-87) when Jordan didn’t even make 1st OR 2nd Team All Defense - he recorded 236 steals and 125 blocks. So in his DPOTY campaign - he improved by 23 steals and 6 blocks. That’s suspicious? If the Bulls statistician was trying to cook Jordan’s totals to help him win DPOTY - he did a really shi-ty job. It seems more plausible that Jordan just maxed out that year since his totals were marginally (steals) and fractionally (blocks) better than the previous year. Jordan also record 227 steals in 1989-90 (led league) and 221 steals in 1992-93 (led league). 259 was his career high year (1987-88) which seems obvious if you remember how active he was as a 25 year old. He was all over the court - all the time. The Haberstroh article was an obvious hit piece with the sole intention of devaluing Jordan’s DPOTY trophy because Lebron never got one. So effin lame

My man, space your paragraphs a bit pls lol

Is not the total but the sheer difference between home and away games that seems odd and there is the other elements i mentioned

we find that Jordan averaged a mind-boggling 4 steals and 2.1 blocks at home. But on the road, those numbers shrunk to a more normal rate of 2.1 steals and 1.2 blocks.

Now it may have been a case of random sampling but that kind of difference is way beyond normal home vs away differences, the home stats in particular are specially unrealistic over a full season on their own

After being disillusioned by Van Exel’s 23-assist game, he posted the assist reel to his YouTube channel. Lācis felt compelled to investigate other big stat-lines. Lācis watched Shaq’s 15-block game of 1993 (more like 10). He broke down the Toronto Raptors’ record-breaking 23-block night of 2001 (more like 17).

Now jordan may be the focus, but there is a trend of "mythbusting" famous outlier statlines in individual games that led to looking into reliabilty of statkeeping at a seasonal level

Haberstroh notes that in modern times, partially a rare good thing about the scourge of gambling in sports, statistics are far better maintained, and the home team advantage has reduced to the point of vanishing.

Notice that we have reasonable reason to believe scorekeeping is more exact than ever, what is or is not an assist remains subjective but the ability of a team to juice its players stats at home seems to be a bigger problem at the past when, frankly speaking data keeping and proffesionalism were lower before the play by play era

As show by this data point

in the 80s, the home team annually registered about 800 more blocks and about 450 more steals than the road team leaguewide, per Basketball Reference tracking. Over time, those home/road disparities began to even out, significantly so in the Adam Silver era. This past season, the homer effect on blocks and steals disparities has all but disappeared, just 135 more blocks at home than on the road and a measly 13 more steals leaguewide.

There is a lot of more in the article, like how the nba once showed the highlights of a jordan 10 steal game but the video only had 6 steals (one would assume nba having the full game would include all 10 steals)

And for that matter, this is not a jordan only thingh, but he was used as an example due to his own prominence and the stark contrast of his boxscore numbers, were we to be able to do thid for wilt or russel rebound records we would likely find similar discrepancies...


Regardless in my opinion neither 88 jordan nor 13/09 lebron were the best defenders in the league so is amoot point

Perimeter players and smaller players dont impact defense as much as centers or bigger forwards do which is why the 80's trend of giving almost all dpoys to guards in a era where center defense was even more foundational than is now is such a stark contrast

Jordan, robertson, cooper all won a majority of dpoy's for a time instead of players like hakeem or ewing which would be unthinkable today

[Hair Jordan]

The main thingh with jordan was specifically the 88 season which was a really really wild spike compared to previous and later seasons and in the games that now infamous article tracked, was completely driven by a fairly absurd difference in home vs away games and iirc some games the sampling found less steals by jordan than the rival team had turnovers in the official statsheer

There will always be sampling issues (as it would be impossible for time or sheer game availability) that prevent getting the actual 82 game tracking so there is a fair deal of margin for error and maybe the author happened to track a outlier sample of jordan home games where he went bananas with steals and blocks, but the data is fairly odd to look at

There is other stuff there, jordan increasing his steals and blocks (related to defense effort and energy spent on defense) in a year he had such a big offensive load (why didnt he ever come to replicate it again in seasons with a smaller offense load?)

Pippen commenting back in the day that lots of his steals got credited to jordan for picking the ball up after pippen poked it

The fact said spike coincided with the year where jordan complained to the media after 87 that michael cooper got dpoy instead of him despite less steals and blocks

It is a rather suspicious total

It also doesnt mean all thst much, jordan was a high steals/blocks guard regardless, he was a great defender regardless, he probably shouldnt have been dpoy regardless as honestly doesnt any guard (let alone nba giving almost all its dpoy's to guards in a decade where defense was so much more driven by bigs that today)

How is Jordan’s 1987-88 steals and block totals suspicious? He had 259 steals and 131 blocks. The previous season (1986-87) when Jordan didn’t even make 1st OR 2nd Team All Defense - he recorded 236 steals and 125 blocks. So in his DPOTY campaign - he improved by 23 steals and 6 blocks. That’s suspicious? If the Bulls statistician was trying to cook Jordan’s totals to help him win DPOTY - he did a really shi-ty job. It seems more plausible that Jordan just maxed out that year since his totals were marginally (steals) and fractionally (blocks) better than the previous year. Jordan also record 227 steals in 1989-90 (led league) and 221 steals in 1992-93 (led league). 259 was his career high year (1987-88) which seems obvious if you remember how active he was as a 25 year old. He was all over the court - all the time. The Haberstroh article was an obvious hit piece with the sole intention of devaluing Jordan’s DPOTY trophy because Lebron never got one. So effin lame

My man, space your paragraphs a bit pls lol

Is not the total but the sheer difference between home and away games that seems odd and there is the other elements i mentioned

we find that Jordan averaged a mind-boggling 4 steals and 2.1 blocks at home. But on the road, those numbers shrunk to a more normal rate of 2.1 steals and 1.2 blocks.

Now it may have been a case of random sampling but that kind of difference is way beyond normal home vs away differences, the home stats in particular are specially unrealistic over a full season on their own

After being disillusioned by Van Exel’s 23-assist game, he posted the assist reel to his YouTube channel. Lācis felt compelled to investigate other big stat-lines. Lācis watched Shaq’s 15-block game of 1993 (more like 10). He broke down the Toronto Raptors’ record-breaking 23-block night of 2001 (more like 17).

Now jordan may be the focus, but there is a trend of "mythbusting" famous outlier statlines in individual games that led to looking into reliabilty of statkeeping at a seasonal level

Haberstroh notes that in modern times, partially a rare good thing about the scourge of gambling in sports, statistics are far better maintained, and the home team advantage has reduced to the point of vanishing.

Notice that we have reasonable reason to believe scorekeeping is more exact than ever, what is or is not an assist remains subjective but the ability of a team to juice its players stats at home seems to be a bigger problem at the past when, frankly speaking data keeping and proffesionalism were lower before the play by play era

As show by this data point

in the 80s, the home team annually registered about 800 more blocks and about 450 more steals than the road team leaguewide, per Basketball Reference tracking. Over time, those home/road disparities began to even out, significantly so in the Adam Silver era. This past season, the homer effect on blocks and steals disparities has all but disappeared, just 135 more blocks at home than on the road and a measly 13 more steals leaguewide.

Regardless neither 88 jordan nor 13/09 lebron were the best defenders in the league so is amoot point

Perimeter players and smaller players dont impact defense as much as centers or bigger forwards do which is why the 80's trend of giving almost all dpoys to guards in a era where center defense was even more foundational than is now is such a stark contrast

Jordan, robertson, cooper all won a majority of dpoy's for a time instead of players like hakeem or ewing which would be unthinkable today

Unthinkable? Gary Payton won DPOTY in 1996 with Pippen coming in second. Kawhi won DPOTY twice. Jordan’s defensive stats in 1987-88 dwarf both Payton and Kawhi in their DPOTY seasons. Also, it’s unusual for a player to put up better stats at home vs away games? Seriously? That’s the worst take of all time. Teams win more games at home vs away as well. Is that an outlier or spike? Ridiculous.

[MavsDirk41]

Ah yes, another Scranton thread that's about hating on MJ but is disguised as something else.

Lol he did the same thing as Taj

[falcolombardi]

How is Jordan’s 1987-88 steals and block totals suspicious? He had 259 steals and 131 blocks. The previous season (1986-87) when Jordan didn’t even make 1st OR 2nd Team All Defense - he recorded 236 steals and 125 blocks. So in his DPOTY campaign - he improved by 23 steals and 6 blocks. That’s suspicious? If the Bulls statistician was trying to cook Jordan’s totals to help him win DPOTY - he did a really shi-ty job. It seems more plausible that Jordan just maxed out that year since his totals were marginally (steals) and fractionally (blocks) better than the previous year. Jordan also record 227 steals in 1989-90 (led league) and 221 steals in 1992-93 (led league). 259 was his career high year (1987-88) which seems obvious if you remember how active he was as a 25 year old. He was all over the court - all the time. The Haberstroh article was an obvious hit piece with the sole intention of devaluing Jordan’s DPOTY trophy because Lebron never got one. So effin lame

My man, space your paragraphs a bit pls lol

Is not the total but the sheer difference between home and away games that seems odd and there is the other elements i mentioned

we find that Jordan averaged a mind-boggling 4 steals and 2.1 blocks at home. But on the road, those numbers shrunk to a more normal rate of 2.1 steals and 1.2 blocks.

Now it may have been a case of random sampling but that kind of difference is way beyond normal home vs away differences, the home stats in particular are specially unrealistic over a full season on their own

After being disillusioned by Van Exel’s 23-assist game, he posted the assist reel to his YouTube channel. Lācis felt compelled to investigate other big stat-lines. Lācis watched Shaq’s 15-block game of 1993 (more like 10). He broke down the Toronto Raptors’ record-breaking 23-block night of 2001 (more like 17).

Now jordan may be the focus, but there is a trend of "mythbusting" famous outlier statlines in individual games that led to looking into reliabilty of statkeeping at a seasonal level

Haberstroh notes that in modern times, partially a rare good thing about the scourge of gambling in sports, statistics are far better maintained, and the home team advantage has reduced to the point of vanishing.

Notice that we have reasonable reason to believe scorekeeping is more exact than ever, what is or is not an assist remains subjective but the ability of a team to juice its players stats at home seems to be a bigger problem at the past when, frankly speaking data keeping and proffesionalism were lower before the play by play era

As show by this data point

in the 80s, the home team annually registered about 800 more blocks and about 450 more steals than the road team leaguewide, per Basketball Reference tracking. Over time, those home/road disparities began to even out, significantly so in the Adam Silver era. This past season, the homer effect on blocks and steals disparities has all but disappeared, just 135 more blocks at home than on the road and a measly 13 more steals leaguewide.

Regardless neither 88 jordan nor 13/09 lebron were the best defenders in the league so is amoot point

Perimeter players and smaller players dont impact defense as much as centers or bigger forwards do which is why the 80's trend of giving almost all dpoys to guards in a era where center defense was even more foundational than is now is such a stark contrast

Jordan, robertson, cooper all won a majority of dpoy's for a time instead of players like hakeem or ewing which would be unthinkable today

Unthinkable? Gary Payton won DPOTY in 1996 with Pippen coming in second. Kawhi won DPOTY twice. Jordan’s defensive stats in 1987-88 dwarf both Payton and Kawhi in their DPOTY seasons. Also, it’s unusual for a player to put up better stats at home vs away games? Seriously? That’s the worst take of all time. Teams win more games at home vs away as well. Is that an outlier or spike? Ridiculous.

Had you bothered to read and understand the points being made you may not find it so ridiculous

There is indeed a increase in steals and blockd by teams at home, just like there is a increase in wins st home

But the gaps in steals/blocks with home team scorekeeping have -shrinked- compared to how big they used to be scorekeeped before

[f4p]

. Also, it’s unusual for a player to put up better stats at home vs away games? Seriously? That’s the worst take of all time.

It's about as usual as someone reading a detailed post about stats on the internet and completely misunderstanding it.

[ScrantonBulls]

Not long until he makes a thread about the rings and finals MVPs not being real, and the videos being AI.

Just watch basketball bro, your life doesn’t lose meaning knowing LeBron won’t catch up to MJ.

Who said anything about LeBron? Sounds like you're the one with LeBron on his mind. Let's stay on topic here.

[ScrantonBulls]

The main thingh with jordan was specifically the 88 season which was a really really wild spike compared to previous and later seasons and in the games that now infamous article tracked, was completely driven by a fairly absurd difference in home vs away games and iirc some games the sampling found less steals by jordan than the rival team had turnovers in the official statsheer

There will always be sampling issues (as it would be impossible for time or sheer game availability) that prevent getting the actual 82 game tracking so there is a fair deal of margin for error and maybe the author happened to track a outlier sample of jordan home games where he went bananas with steals and blocks, but the data is fairly odd to look at

There is other stuff there, jordan increasing his steals and blocks (related to defense effort and energy spent on defense) in a year he had such a big offensive load (why didnt he ever come to replicate it again in seasons with a smaller offense load?)

Pippen commenting back in the day that lots of his steals got credited to jordan for picking the ball up after pippen poked it

The fact said spike coincided with the year where jordan complained to the media after 87 that michael cooper got dpoy instead of him despite less steals and blocks

It is a rather suspicious total

It also doesnt mean all thst much, jordan was a high steals/blocks guard regardless, he was a great defender regardless, he probably shouldnt have been dpoy regardless as honestly doesnt any guard (let alone nba giving almost all its dpoy's to guards in a decade where defense was so much more driven by bigs that today)

How is Jordan’s 1987-88 steals and block totals suspicious? He had 259 steals and 131 blocks. The previous season (1986-87) when Jordan didn’t even make 1st OR 2nd Team All Defense - he recorded 236 steals and 125 blocks. So in his DPOTY campaign - he improved by 23 steals and 6 blocks. That’s suspicious? If the Bulls statistician was trying to cook Jordan’s totals to help him win DPOTY - he did a really shi-ty job. It seems more plausible that Jordan just maxed out that year since his totals were marginally (steals) and fractionally (blocks) better than the previous year. Jordan also record 227 steals in 1989-90 (led league) and 221 steals in 1992-93 (led league). 259 was his career high year (1987-88) which seems obvious if you remember how active he was as a 25 year old. He was all over the court - all the time. The Haberstroh article was an obvious hit piece with the sole intention of devaluing Jordan’s DPOTY trophy because Lebron never got one. So effin lame

My man, space your paragraphs a bit pls lol

Is not the total but the sheer difference between home and away games that seems odd and there is the other elements i mentioned

we find that Jordan averaged a mind-boggling 4 steals and 2.1 blocks at home. But on the road, those numbers shrunk to a more normal rate of 2.1 steals and 1.2 blocks.

Now it may have been a case of random sampling but that kind of difference is way beyond normal home vs away differences, the home stats in particular are specially unrealistic over a full season on their own

After being disillusioned by Van Exel’s 23-assist game, he posted the assist reel to his YouTube channel. Lācis felt compelled to investigate other big stat-lines. Lācis watched Shaq’s 15-block game of 1993 (more like 10). He broke down the Toronto Raptors’ record-breaking 23-block night of 2001 (more like 17).

Now jordan may be the focus, but there is a trend of "mythbusting" famous outlier statlines in individual games that led to looking into reliabilty of statkeeping at a seasonal level

Haberstroh notes that in modern times, partially a rare good thing about the scourge of gambling in sports, statistics are far better maintained, and the home team advantage has reduced to the point of vanishing.

Notice that we have reasonable reason to believe scorekeeping is more exact than ever, what is or is not an assist remains subjective but the ability of a team to juice its players stats at home seems to be a bigger problem at the past when, frankly speaking data keeping and proffesionalism were lower before the play by play era

As show by this data point

in the 80s, the home team annually registered about 800 more blocks and about 450 more steals than the road team leaguewide, per Basketball Reference tracking. Over time, those home/road disparities began to even out, significantly so in the Adam Silver era. This past season, the homer effect on blocks and steals disparities has all but disappeared, just 135 more blocks at home than on the road and a measly 13 more steals leaguewide.

There is a lot of more in the article, like how the nba once showed the highlights of a jordan 10 steal game but the video only had 6 steals (one would assume nba having the full game would include all 10 steals)

And for that matter, this is not a jordan only thingh, but he was used as an example due to his own prominence and the stark contrast of his boxscore numbers, were we to be able to do thid for wilt or russel rebound records we would likely find similar discrepancies...


Regardless in my opinion neither 88 jordan nor 13/09 lebron were the best defenders in the league so is amoot point

Perimeter players and smaller players dont impact defense as much as centers or bigger forwards do which is why the 80's trend of giving almost all dpoys to guards in a era where center defense was even more foundational than is now is such a stark contrast

Jordan, robertson, cooper all won a majority of dpoy's for a time instead of players like hakeem or ewing which would be unthinkable today

Bingo. Very well put.

[Rust_Cohle]

How is Jordan’s 1987-88 steals and block totals suspicious? He had 259 steals and 131 blocks. The previous season (1986-87) when Jordan didn’t even make 1st OR 2nd Team All Defense - he recorded 236 steals and 125 blocks. So in his DPOTY campaign - he improved by 23 steals and 6 blocks. That’s suspicious? If the Bulls statistician was trying to cook Jordan’s totals to help him win DPOTY - he did a really shi-ty job. It seems more plausible that Jordan just maxed out that year since his totals were marginally (steals) and fractionally (blocks) better than the previous year. Jordan also record 227 steals in 1989-90 (led league) and 221 steals in 1992-93 (led league). 259 was his career high year (1987-88) which seems obvious if you remember how active he was as a 25 year old. He was all over the court - all the time. The Haberstroh article was an obvious hit piece with the sole intention of devaluing Jordan’s DPOTY trophy because Lebron never got one. So effin lame

My man, space your paragraphs a bit pls lol

Is not the total but the sheer difference between home and away games that seems odd and there is the other elements i mentioned

we find that Jordan averaged a mind-boggling 4 steals and 2.1 blocks at home. But on the road, those numbers shrunk to a more normal rate of 2.1 steals and 1.2 blocks.

Now it may have been a case of random sampling but that kind of difference is way beyond normal home vs away differences, the home stats in particular are specially unrealistic over a full season on their own

After being disillusioned by Van Exel’s 23-assist game, he posted the assist reel to his YouTube channel. Lācis felt compelled to investigate other big stat-lines. Lācis watched Shaq’s 15-block game of 1993 (more like 10). He broke down the Toronto Raptors’ record-breaking 23-block night of 2001 (more like 17).

Now jordan may be the focus, but there is a trend of "mythbusting" famous outlier statlines in individual games that led to looking into reliabilty of statkeeping at a seasonal level

Haberstroh notes that in modern times, partially a rare good thing about the scourge of gambling in sports, statistics are far better maintained, and the home team advantage has reduced to the point of vanishing.

Notice that we have reasonable reason to believe scorekeeping is more exact than ever, what is or is not an assist remains subjective but the ability of a team to juice its players stats at home seems to be a bigger problem at the past when, frankly speaking data keeping and proffesionalism were lower before the play by play era

As show by this data point

in the 80s, the home team annually registered about 800 more blocks and about 450 more steals than the road team leaguewide, per Basketball Reference tracking. Over time, those home/road disparities began to even out, significantly so in the Adam Silver era. This past season, the homer effect on blocks and steals disparities has all but disappeared, just 135 more blocks at home than on the road and a measly 13 more steals leaguewide.

There is a lot of more in the article, like how the nba once showed the highlights of a jordan 10 steal game but the video only had 6 steals (one would assume nba having the full game would include all 10 steals)

And for that matter, this is not a jordan only thingh, but he was used as an example due to his own prominence and the stark contrast of his boxscore numbers, were we to be able to do thid for wilt or russel rebound records we would likely find similar discrepancies...


Regardless in my opinion neither 88 jordan nor 13/09 lebron were the best defenders in the league so is amoot point

Perimeter players and smaller players dont impact defense as much as centers or bigger forwards do which is why the 80's trend of giving almost all dpoys to guards in a era where center defense was even more foundational than is now is such a stark contrast

Jordan, robertson, cooper all won a majority of dpoy's for a time instead of players like hakeem or ewing which would be unthinkable today

Bingo. Very well put.

No way do you agree LeBron should not have been DPOY in 2013

[ScrantonBulls]

My man, space your paragraphs a bit pls lol

Is not the total but the sheer difference between home and away games that seems odd and there is the other elements i mentioned



Now it may have been a case of random sampling but that kind of difference is way beyond normal home vs away differences, the home stats in particular are specially unrealistic over a full season on their own



Now jordan may be the focus, but there is a trend of "mythbusting" famous outlier statlines in individual games that led to looking into reliabilty of statkeeping at a seasonal level



Notice that we have reasonable reason to believe scorekeeping is more exact than ever, what is or is not an assist remains subjective but the ability of a team to juice its players stats at home seems to be a bigger problem at the past when, frankly speaking data keeping and proffesionalism were lower before the play by play era

As show by this data point




There is a lot of more in the article, like how the nba once showed the highlights of a jordan 10 steal game but the video only had 6 steals (one would assume nba having the full game would include all 10 steals)

And for that matter, this is not a jordan only thingh, but he was used as an example due to his own prominence and the stark contrast of his boxscore numbers, were we to be able to do thid for wilt or russel rebound records we would likely find similar discrepancies...


Regardless in my opinion neither 88 jordan nor 13/09 lebron were the best defenders in the league so is amoot point

Perimeter players and smaller players dont impact defense as much as centers or bigger forwards do which is why the 80's trend of giving almost all dpoys to guards in a era where center defense was even more foundational than is now is such a stark contrast

Jordan, robertson, cooper all won a majority of dpoy's for a time instead of players like hakeem or ewing which would be unthinkable today

Bingo. Very well put.

No way do you agree LeBron should not have been DPOY in 2013

That's called objectivity my friend. You should give it a shot. I've long help the belief that its a complete joke when PGs and SGs win DPOY. To an extent I believe that with SFs as well, but a great defensive SF can be more versatile than a PG/SG.

The early DPOY winners were complete jokes. There's no way in hell these guards who kept winning were more impactful than guys like Hakeem and Eaton. It's just laughable to say that.

LeBron in 09/13 was more versatile than Jordan ever was defensively. that's when he was playing SF and PF. He could guard 1-4 at an elite level. We saw him lock down prime DRose in the playoffs around them. He was that good, not to mention his elite help defense.

So no I probably don't think he should have gotten DPOY those seasons, but he had a better case than any guard that ever won the award. That's for damn sure.

[NO-KG-AI]

Bingo. Very well put.

No way do you agree LeBron should not have been DPOY in 2013

That's called objectivity my friend. You should give it a shot. I've long help the belief that its a complete joke when PGs and SGs win DPOY. To an extent I believe that with SFs as well, but a great defensive SF can be more versatile than a PG/SG.

The early DPOY winners were complete jokes. There's no way in hell these guards who kept winning were more impactful than guys like Hakeem and Eaton. It's just laughable to say that.

LeBron in 09/13 was more versatile than Jordan ever was defensively. that's when he was playing SF and PF. He could guard 1-4 at an elite level. We saw him lock down prime DRose in the playoffs around them. He was that good, not to mention his elite help defense.

So no I probably don't think he should have gotten DPOY those seasons, but he had a better case than any guard that ever won the award. That's for damn sure.

Damn, it hurts huh

[ScrantonBulls]

No way do you agree LeBron should not have been DPOY in 2013

That's called objectivity my friend. You should give it a shot. I've long help the belief that its a complete joke when PGs and SGs win DPOY. To an extent I believe that with SFs as well, but a great defensive SF can be more versatile than a PG/SG.

The early DPOY winners were complete jokes. There's no way in hell these guards who kept winning were more impactful than guys like Hakeem and Eaton. It's just laughable to say that.

LeBron in 09/13 was more versatile than Jordan ever was defensively. that's when he was playing SF and PF. He could guard 1-4 at an elite level. We saw him lock down prime DRose in the playoffs around them. He was that good, not to mention his elite help defense.

So no I probably don't think he should have gotten DPOY those seasons, but he had a better case than any guard that ever won the award. That's for damn sure.

Damn, it hurts huh

Nah brah, i don't pathologically harbor negative emotions over the NBA or any of its players. I know there's a large subsect of fans that do (especially regarding a certain player), but that isn't my style. I love the game.

[NO-KG-AI]

That's called objectivity my friend. You should give it a shot. I've long help the belief that its a complete joke when PGs and SGs win DPOY. To an extent I believe that with SFs as well, but a great defensive SF can be more versatile than a PG/SG.

The early DPOY winners were complete jokes. There's no way in hell these guards who kept winning were more impactful than guys like Hakeem and Eaton. It's just laughable to say that.

LeBron in 09/13 was more versatile than Jordan ever was defensively. that's when he was playing SF and PF. He could guard 1-4 at an elite level. We saw him lock down prime DRose in the playoffs around them. He was that good, not to mention his elite help defense.

So no I probably don't think he should have gotten DPOY those seasons, but he had a better case than any guard that ever won the award. That's for damn sure.

Damn, it hurts huh

Nah brah, i don't pathologically harbor negative emotions over the NBA or any of its players. I know there's a large subsect of fans that do (especially regarding a certain player), but that isn't my style. I love the game.

Does the DPOY keep you up later, or the 9 all defensive first teams in like a decade less time? Was it an argument about their legitimacy that got your first account banned?

[1993Playoffs]

Yes. Both have inflated statistics

[ScrantonBulls]

Damn, it hurts huh

Nah brah, i don't pathologically harbor negative emotions over the NBA or any of its players. I know there's a large subsect of fans that do (especially regarding a certain player), but that isn't my style. I love the game.

Does the DPOY keep you up later, or the 9 all defensive first teams in like a decade less time? Was it an argument about their legitimacy that got your first account banned?

First and foremost, I'd like to apologize for triggering you with this topic. I think it would probably be best for you if you put me on ignore. No use getting upset over a run-of-the-mill basketball discussion like this

[NO-KG-AI]

Nah brah, i don't pathologically harbor negative emotions over the NBA or any of its players. I know there's a large subsect of fans that do (especially regarding a certain player), but that isn't my style. I love the game.

Does the DPOY keep you up later, or the 9 all defensive first teams in like a decade less time? Was it an argument about their legitimacy that got your first account banned?

First and foremost, I'd like to apologize for triggering you with this topic. I think it would probably be best for you if you put me on ignore. No use getting upset over a run-of-the-mill basketball discussion like this

I just read your post about the decision, and you jumped the shark. The trolling was more effective whwn it was more subtle, like this thread’s title etc. I always hate when kayfabe gets broken

[Lalouie]

if you're going to pick out one player, pick them all out while you're at it

[nomansland]

Of course his numbers were exaggerated. Dude was still a maestro.

[Daddy 801]

I think the altitude of Utah and players getting tired playing in Utah easily explains the discrepancy in his home vs. away assist numbers. Altitude should result in Utah players playing better at home and getting a couple plays a night where the other team is just a tad bit more tired than they usually would be.

That’s just my opinion though.

[KrAzY3]

Not too long ago we got the article

Not too long ago? It's from last year and I saw this exact same topic "not too long ago". We just periodically making the same exact posts now?