Poll: Odd man out: Gradey, Ja'Kobe or Ochai?

[djsunyc]

For a contender Ochai would be the #1 pick out of the 3......Dick is a giant defensive liability.

I hope they can figure out how to keep Ochai, and not lose him because of salary.

People keep talking about gradey defense I’m still waiting for him to shoot 40% from 3. Terrence Ross showed more in his first 2 years as a raptor.

just an fyi but ross was 21 when drafted, dick was 19.

[YogurtProducer]

Ochai having so many votes when he’s currently the best of the bunch is hilarious

I mean he's also the oldest & most experience & he just showed some flashes

Sure, but he’s still young and there’s no guarantee anyone else ever becomes a 3+D guy like he is.

IMO - he is underrated around here

[ChillRelaxDude]

For a contender Ochai would be the #1 pick out of the 3......Dick is a giant defensive liability.

I hope they can figure out how to keep Ochai, and not lose him because of salary.

People keep talking about gradey defense I’m still waiting for him to shoot 40% from 3. Terrence Ross showed more in his first 2 years as a raptor.

Absolutely! In the first two years, Ross was able to show that he couldn't dribble, he was afraid of the paint, and that he couldn't live up to his supposed defensive potential.

[Boogie!]

For a contender Ochai would be the #1 pick out of the 3......Dick is a giant defensive liability.

I hope they can figure out how to keep Ochai, and not lose him because of salary.

People keep talking about gradey defense I’m still waiting for him to shoot 40% from 3. Terrence Ross showed more in his first 2 years as a raptor.

just an fyi but ross was 21 when drafted, dick was 19.

I’ve said this before but I don’t put as much stock on age… plenty of young prospects that don’t pan out, age is only a factor if raw talent and skills are already there. I’ve used the Gary Trent comparison when people kept saying that we traded Norman for a younger prospect with potential to be better than him and I said right away that Trent would never be better than him regardless of age simply because of his skill set limitations.

If I had to put money on dick becoming a star vs fizzling out of the league, I’d put money of the latter.

[Boogie!]

For a contender Ochai would be the #1 pick out of the 3......Dick is a giant defensive liability.

I hope they can figure out how to keep Ochai, and not lose him because of salary.

People keep talking about gradey defense I’m still waiting for him to shoot 40% from 3. Terrence Ross showed more in his first 2 years as a raptor.

Absolutely! In the first two years, Ross was able to show that he couldn't dribble, he was afraid of the paint, and that he couldn't live up to his supposed defensive potential.

In his second season he shot almost 40% from 3, already had a 51 point game and his breakout helped lead the raptors to the playoffs… some pundits were even comparing him to Paul George…

[djsunyc]

People keep talking about gradey defense I’m still waiting for him to shoot 40% from 3. Terrence Ross showed more in his first 2 years as a raptor.

just an fyi but ross was 21 when drafted, dick was 19.

I’ve said this before but I don’t put as much stock on age… plenty of young prospects that don’t pan out, age is only a factor if raw talent and skills are already there. I’ve used the Gary Trent comparison when people kept saying that we traded Norman for a younger prospect with potential to be better than him and I said right away that Trent would never be better than him regardless of age simply because of his skill set limitations.

If I had to put money on dick becoming a star vs fizzling out of the league, I’d put money of the latter.

using norm as an example, he was worse than ross his first 2 years and he was 22 when drafted. sometimes it takes some time to physically and mentally mature and catch up to the pace of the nba. even worse his 3rd season. in fact norm's first 3 seasons was worse than gradey's last year.

star and fizzle out are 2 extremes.

[ChillRelaxDude]

People keep talking about gradey defense I’m still waiting for him to shoot 40% from 3. Terrence Ross showed more in his first 2 years as a raptor.

Absolutely! In the first two years, Ross was able to show that he couldn't dribble, he was afraid of the paint, and that he couldn't live up to his supposed defensive potential.

In his second season he shot almost 40% from 3, already had a 51 point game and his breakout helped lead the raptors to the playoffs… some pundits were even comparing him to Paul George…

Ross never had a breakout season with the Raptors. He was pretty underwhelming.

I think he's a bad example for the point you're trying to make. Gradey is a better shot maker, isn't afraid to drive, and has playmaking chops. Still a work in progress with the role he's been given, but the idea of him fizzing out of the league makes me think 'wtf is this guy thinking' and 'he's probably too young to have even watched Ross play as a Raptor'.

[Grew]

I think people over value Ochai because he's the "OG replacement" idea. OG is able to guard 1-5 most nights and he's one of the toughest defenders any player 1-4 could match up against. Ochai isn't big enough or skilled enough to even guard traditional 3 men.

So Ochai is a 2 man who guards 1-2 and smallball 3s. He doesn't do even that, half as well as OG does. Rookie Jakobe could bring 90 percent of what Ochai brings on D as a 4th year guy.

Ochai is a fulltime 2, but he doesn't bring any secondary ball handling or playmaking. He can't create anything or even shoot consistently above the break or without his feet set. He's a 3/4 type wing player in the body of a 2 man.

Ochai would have to learn some east-west dribble setups and obtain the ability to pull up from 3 off the bounce to even start to sniff becoming a Norm Powell type. I don't see him ever developing this skillset.

I believe Ochai is at his ceiling. He's figured out who he is and carved out an NBA role. That role is something like 8th man on a team with aspirations to get past the first round. He could start at the 2 on teams with ball dominant playmaking superstars like Luka.

Ochai is a luxury finishing piece, like the rockets getting DFS to be their 3rd or 4th wing. Or he's a cheap starter option for a team paying multiple superstars, who can't afford higher end role players.

He doesn't increase the celing of our team, but he does help the floor. I would rather develop Jakobe and Gradey, they both have a chance to increase this teams ceiling.

[RoteSchroder]

People keep talking about gradey defense I’m still waiting for him to shoot 40% from 3. Terrence Ross showed more in his first 2 years as a raptor.

Absolutely! In the first two years, Ross was able to show that he couldn't dribble, he was afraid of the paint, and that he couldn't live up to his supposed defensive potential.

In his second season he shot almost 40% from 3, already had a 51 point game and his breakout helped lead the raptors to the playoffs… some pundits were even comparing him to Paul George…

homers will be homers, can't take their opinions seriously

I think Dick's defense is still the make or break factor. He needs to work on core strength + positional defense. If he can't defend and teams are picking on him every time down the stretch, he's virtually unplayable even if he hits 40%. Passable defense (i.e. slightly under average) with ~37% 3 point shooting and ~58+ TS% off the bench is fine to me.

I'd give him at least until the end of his rookie contract to show progression and that he can stay on the court, but if a team wants to give up any valuable assets for him, I'm down for that too depending on what we're getting.

[ChillRelaxDude]

Absolutely! In the first two years, Ross was able to show that he couldn't dribble, he was afraid of the paint, and that he couldn't live up to his supposed defensive potential.

In his second season he shot almost 40% from 3, already had a 51 point game and his breakout helped lead the raptors to the playoffs… some pundits were even comparing him to Paul George…

homers will be homers, can't take their opinions seriously

I think Dick's defense is still the make or break factor. He needs to work on core strength + positional defense. If he can't defend and teams are picking on him every time down the stretch, he's virtually unplayable even if he hits 40%. Passable defense (i.e. slightly under average) with ~37% 3 point shooting and ~58+ TS% off the bench is fine to me.

I'd give him at least until the end of his rookie contract to show progression and that he can stay on the court, but if a team wants to give up any valuable assets for him, I'm down for that too depending on what we're getting.

Homer?

The guy fizzing out of the league gonna get you some tasty assets?

Two peas in a pod.

[RoteSchroder]

In his second season he shot almost 40% from 3, already had a 51 point game and his breakout helped lead the raptors to the playoffs… some pundits were even comparing him to Paul George…

homers will be homers, can't take their opinions seriously

I think Dick's defense is still the make or break factor. He needs to work on core strength + positional defense. If he can't defend and teams are picking on him every time down the stretch, he's virtually unplayable even if he hits 40%. Passable defense (i.e. slightly under average) with ~37% 3 point shooting and ~58+ TS% off the bench is fine to me.

I'd give him at least until the end of his rookie contract to show progression and that he can stay on the court, but if a team wants to give up any valuable assets for him, I'm down for that too depending on what we're getting.

Homer?

The guy fizzing out of the league gonna get you some tasty assets?

Two peas in a pod.

That's why I said "if". It's a hypothetical. I literally said I would wait until the end of his rookie contract (i.e. at least 2 more years). That's not fizzling out of the league. You need reading comprehension lessons.

Homer as in the guys who were comparing Ross to Paul George. Was that you way back when? Embarrassing..still trying to defend Ross to this day

[tsherkin]

People keep talking about gradey defense I’m still waiting for him to shoot 40% from 3. Terrence Ross showed more in his first 2 years as a raptor.

TBF, he did shoot 40%... on open 3s.

What he needs to work on is making shots against light contest. And after a mere season and a half or so worth of games, there's still some hope that he might get there.

[Boogie!]

People keep talking about gradey defense I’m still waiting for him to shoot 40% from 3. Terrence Ross showed more in his first 2 years as a raptor.

TBF, he did shoot 40%... on open 3s.

What he needs to work on is making shots against light contest. And after a mere season and a half or so worth of games, there's still some hope that he might get there.

His defense sucks and it’s funny how people keep acting like he’s gonna improve in that regard… some players are just bad defenders. I initially liked the pick because it looked like we finally added that knockdown shooter we’ve been clamoring for all these years.

again I don’t have some super high standards for gradey. It’s quite obvious to me that his potential is limited. All I’m really hoping for is he becomes an elite shooter. Don’t care about his defense, don’t care about his shot creation ability, all I ask is he be some semblance of an automatic catch and shoot player. Gradeys value will always come from his offense and that is what we need to be paying attention to with regards to his potential. Even if he can somehow defend at an average level, it won’t mean anything if he still only shooting 36% from 3…

[tsherkin]

His defense sucks and it’s funny how people keep acting like he’s gonna improve in that regard… some players are just bad defenders. I initially liked the pick because it looked like we finally added that knockdown shooter we’ve been clamoring for all these years.

All of that is quite possible, I agree. I'm just in favor of seeing where he goes offensively for at least this season because he showed some interesting stuff early on where he was having success attacking close-outs, hitting shots and being somewhat problematic with a live dribble. Maybe he doesn't carry through with that. Maybe he never pulls an RJ and becomes neutral-ish defensively. Both would be reasons to move on. Getting a good offer for him right now would also be a decent reason. Discount Tyler Herro would be a real nice outcome for him.

But I do want to give him a chance to show us what he can do for more than a season and a half, that's all.

[Randle McMurphy]

Way too many are down on Dick considering he’s still only 21.

RJ should clearly be moved if possible but that isn’t entirely up to them given his negative value contract.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

People who voted Grady or Ja'Kobe over Ochai...

[tsherkin]

Way too many are down on Dick considering he’s still only 21.

RJ should clearly be moved if possible but that isn’t entirely up to them given his negative value contract.

As was mentioned to me earlier, RJ isn't part of this conversation, so there's a limitation parameter in play.

[Jerry Lucas]

Way too many are down on Dick considering he’s still only 21.

RJ should clearly be moved if possible but that isn’t entirely up to them given his negative value contract.

As was mentioned to me earlier, RJ isn't part of this conversation, so there's a limitation parameter in play.

If RJ can't be part of this discussion, then Ochai should be the clear pick.

The other poll options are both too young, and still have too much surplus value potential remaining on their rookie scale deals to move as soon as now (which they would do with Ochai if the return made sense for them), given Gradey has 2 seasons left and Ja'Kobe has 3.

[tsherkin]

If RJ can't be part of this discussion, then Ochai should be the clear pick.

The other poll options are both too young, and still have too much surplus value potential remaining on their rookie scale deals to move as soon as now (which they would do with Ochai if the return made sense for them), given Gradey has 2 seasons left and Ja'Kobe has 3.

It's certainly a thought. But then we're getting into the guy who has the demonstrable skillset we're looking for compared to two guys who ostensibly possess the potential to match him (and maybe exceed him) one day, but with no real guarantee, you know? It's an interesting debate to have, with valid positions on both sides.

[bballsparkin]

His defense sucks and it’s funny how people keep acting like he’s gonna improve in that regard… some players are just bad defenders. I initially liked the pick because it looked like we finally added that knockdown shooter we’ve been clamoring for all these years.

All of that is quite possible, I agree. I'm just in favor of seeing where he goes offensively for at least this season because he showed some interesting stuff early on where he was having success attacking close-outs, hitting shots and being somewhat problematic with a live dribble. Maybe he doesn't carry through with that. Maybe he never pulls an RJ and becomes neutral-ish defensively. Both would be reasons to move on. Getting a good offer for him right now would also be a decent reason. Discount Tyler Herro would be a real nice outcome for him.

But I do want to give him a chance to show us what he can do for more than a season and a half, that's all.

Do you mean if Gradey turns out like a discount Tyler Herro that would be a good outcome for him or that if you could trade him for Herro on a discount that would be a good outcome?

To me age matters a lot because he's a beanpole. If he comes into the season again getting pushed around so easily I will lose confidence in his ability to gain strength but I still have hope for Gradey. He moves very well without the ball and makes nice passes. Just needs to make mo shats and not be a twig.