The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens!

[zimpy27]

I completely understand the rationale from a financial standpoint

Right so if I as an owner of a team said to my GM, I'm happy to pay an extra $40m in luxury tax per season. Now that's an average, which means that over the next 5 years of your employment as GM you can run up a luxury tax bill of $200m total.

Knowing this, would you prefer to run up the $200m in the next 2 seasons with Beal on your team in this current format of the Suns? Or would you prefer to waive and stretch Beal to pay no tax in year 1 while you restructure the team and instead aim to use up the $200m lux tax during seasons when you are more likely to contend?

Zimpy don't you dare be logical and have a realistic approach.

The usual suspects on this board would pay 500M in tax just to keep Beal.

I think people are angry at the failed moves the Suns made since making the finals. It is frustrating, I've been following the Lakers with LeBron and they won a ring before moving Green, KCP, Caruso, Kuzma, 2 FRPs in search of a point guard to replace old man Rondo and ended up with Schroeder, THT and Westbrook. There is some dumb dumb dummies running teams in the NBA when it comes to decisions on talent. It's annoying.

But yeah, moving on from that. This was the right move for the Suns. They actually had a very good offseason overall IMO.

Maluach and Fleming were great pick ups.

[Rebound Mound]

Allen+O’neal make the same salary as John Collins
Allen+O’neal could be traded for Kuminga
Are we interested in either?

Kuminga and Collins are two type of players we currently do not have.
The uber athletic Kuminga with playing time and confidence would do wonders here, although we have similar players in Fleming and Dunn.
Collins is a 4/5 player who plays well above the rim and could offer us the option to create big lineups and a true PF.
With Green and Booker, Dunn and Brooks, the presence of Allen and Oneale is not required.

[Rebound Mound]

Analyzing the past does any good to solve the present, but Ishbia got into a huge mistake that turns out to cost the franchise 100 million and limits our sporting options for 5 years. How different our situation would be if Beal did not have that NTC and he could be sent to any team in the league...

As per Booker, I always thought he was willing to give up some money so we could be a stronger franchise. My wishes... 70 million a year does not allow to do much with the rest of the roster...

[Djedefre]

I think it is clear for quite some time that winning a chip is not among Booker's top priorities. Getting paid while being famous, dating other celebrities and being talked about is 'bout enough for him. I mean you can not blame him and be particularly mad about it - 95% of today's players are like that. But there are also those things called ownership, management, executives, FO, GM and that kinda stuff and their job is to evaluate what is best for the franchise and act accordingly. Not just accommodate the wishes of player x or y. Booker is entitled to ask for a humongous contract, he has every right to do so, bit it's on the management to say 'hey, hey, you are just not worth it, it's going to jeopardize our future chances of building a real contender and going for the rings, we can give you this amount; if you are not satisfied, thank you for your service, let's work on a trade and a new destination for you'. It is really straightforward and simple in this case. But no, we are doing the exact opposite. I bet Booker didn't even start the discussion, that it was Ishbia who first spat out the numbers to Booker.

[zimpy27]

I completely understand the rationale from a financial standpoint

Right so if I as an owner of a team said to my GM, I'm happy to pay an extra $40m in luxury tax per season. Now that's an average, which means that over the next 5 years of your employment as GM you can run up a luxury tax bill of $200m total.

Knowing this, would you prefer to run up the $200m in the next 2 seasons with Beal on your team in this current format of the Suns? Or would you prefer to waive and stretch Beal to pay no tax in year 1 while you restructure the team and instead aim to use up the $200m lux tax during seasons when you are more likely to contend?

The problem is, there's way of maneuvering this without having to put dead salary on our roster for the next 5 years.

- Grayson Allen makes about the same as Duncan Robinson and is a better player. The Suns could have done the trade for Fontechio and shave 11 mil.
- don't do the Mark Williams trade and instead waive Martin and Micic, savings 16 mil
- don't pick up Nick Richards, savings 5 mil.
- if you want to save more money, buyout and stretch Fontechio's 8 mil contract.

Now you can still buyout Beal if he's willing to take a cut (just don't stretch him afterwards) , if not, moving Allen opens up a spot for him at the backup SG.

People keep talking about stretching Beal like it's the only way to get below the apron, there's multiple ways the Suns could have approached this without leaving the team with less capspace than any other team in the league for half a decade.

Beal trade saves $34m which gets Suns under the tax.

Fontecchio for Grayson isn't legal. Duncan was $7.5m more than Font. That's why it was legal.

Martin and Micic were waived. You just added Mark for $6m and it was a good deal.

Richards good have saved another $5m.

At most you've saved is $12.5m from this even though it's not legal. $15m if you opted not to have Mark Williams and chose a vet min player instead.



Nothing was coming close to the $34m saved from Beal except for moving Jalen Green in to space. Ultimately the decision to keep Jalen Green and not pay to move him to Nets is what pushed the Beal stretch.

[Puff]

I think the Beal buy out is coming from GM Booker. There was no chemistry between the two and Beal has an untradeable contract. If that is the case, we must waive Beal.

Options:
1. Trade him for players we do not want with matching contracts and are bad fits.
2. Keep him and waste a roster spot for two years.
3. Waive him and use the money to acquire good fits for the roster. I expect that is what we are going to see.

I know this is a board so that everyone can give their opinion, but I will wait to give my off season grade after they have completed their moves. I like what they have done thus far. Most on this board think it has been a disaster and will only get worse if we waive and stretch Beal.

[lilfishi22]

Put it this way.

The tax the Suns would pay in 25-26 and 26-27 with Beal at $110m on the books would be more than the amount of tax the Suns would pay if they are just under the 2nd apron for the next 4 seasons after this one with Beal as stretched dead salary.

Suns would be paying $120m tax by being $24m over the tax line this season.
By being under tax in 25-26 and jumping back up to $24m over the tax line in 26-27 they would be paying only $60m tax.

I completely understand the rationale from a financial standpoint

Right so if I as an owner of a team said to my GM, I'm happy to pay an extra $40m in luxury tax per season. Now that's an average, which means that over the next 5 years of your employment as GM you can run up a luxury tax bill of $200m total.

Knowing this, would you prefer to run up the $200m in the next 2 seasons with Beal on your team in this current format of the Suns? Or would you prefer to waive and stretch Beal to pay no tax in year 1 while you restructure the team and instead aim to use up the $200m lux tax during seasons when you are more likely to contend?

This season, if we do nothing, we'll have a tax bill of around $102m because of the repeater tax. That multiplier is a tough pill to swallow for any owner, let alone one that will run a roster that isn't expected to be a for sure playoff team. I recognise that.

That multiplier also works the other way as well. Let's say we were able to find takers for both Grayson and Royce and saw a $3m net reduction in salary. Let's also not do the Mark Williams trade so we're not picking up Micic's team option of $8.1m. That's already an $11.1m reduction in our salary. That reduction puts us under the harsher tax brackets of 5x, 6x, 7x etc. And if the calcs are correct, the tax bill is now around $35.2m. Still a high tax bill but it's 60% reduction from the ridiculous original tax bill of $100m. What if we now took the savings from a Beal buy out (around $6.7m) for this year? That's now looking like a $17.8m reduction in salary from a $22.4m starting point. Now we have a $13.7m tax bill. It's more than manageable. Could we squeeze any more savings elsewhere? The Richards contract is there. Maybe we trade down from #10 to #12 to grab Sorber instead, that's around $500k in savings. Maybe extra savings is there, maybe there isn't.

If we made the right moves (even at the cost of some draft capital), perhaps we were able to get an expiring contract for one of Grayson or Royce and we could be at or near the luxury tax threshold next year.

But you know, all of this is just easier if we just stretched Beal.

[Saberestar]

Different topic... K. Ware has been pretty bad in his first two games at Summer League.

I swear that I think we dodged a bullet when the Heat didn’t make him available in the KD's trade.

[Saberestar]

Gerald Bourguet:

The Suns will hold their rookie introductory press conference tomorrow at 3 PM local time, with GM Brian Gregory, Khaman Maluach, Rasheer Fleming and Koby Brea all scheduled to be available

[Frank Lee]

Looks like yall can soon call me Frankstradamus.

Zimpy… where the hell you been the past 4-5 months??? I’ve been taking body blows then you waltz in with an I Told Ya So flak jacket on ? Ha.

It’s a tough sell to this crowd, even with numbers and perks. The teeter will totter tho, this is a resilient fan base… good thing weed is legal in AZ


So to recap
Wishbia finally painted himself into the corner… and with sticky feet he orders up a new rug. It was his only path w/o completely eating shttt for not hiring a competent contractor.

Let us proceed

[zimpy27]

I completely understand the rationale from a financial standpoint

Right so if I as an owner of a team said to my GM, I'm happy to pay an extra $40m in luxury tax per season. Now that's an average, which means that over the next 5 years of your employment as GM you can run up a luxury tax bill of $200m total.

Knowing this, would you prefer to run up the $200m in the next 2 seasons with Beal on your team in this current format of the Suns? Or would you prefer to waive and stretch Beal to pay no tax in year 1 while you restructure the team and instead aim to use up the $200m lux tax during seasons when you are more likely to contend?

This season, if we do nothing, we'll have a tax bill of around $102m because of the repeater tax. That multiplier is a tough pill to swallow for any owner, let alone one that will run a roster that isn't expected to be a for sure playoff team. I recognise that.

That multiplier also works the other way as well. Let's say we were able to find takers for both Grayson and Royce and saw a $3m net reduction in salary. Let's also not do the Mark Williams trade so we're not picking up Micic's team option of $8.1m. That's already an $11.1m reduction in our salary. That reduction puts us under the harsher tax brackets of 5x, 6x, 7x etc. And if the calcs are correct, the tax bill is now around $35.2m. Still a high tax bill but it's 60% reduction from the ridiculous original tax bill of $100m. What if we now took the savings from a Beal buy out (around $6.7m) for this year? That's now looking like a $17.8m reduction in salary from a $22.4m starting point. Now we have a $13.7m tax bill. It's more than manageable. Could we squeeze any more savings elsewhere? The Richards contract is there. Maybe we trade down from #10 to #12 to grab Sorber instead, that's around $500k in savings. Maybe extra savings is there, maybe there isn't.

If we made the right moves (even at the cost of some draft capital), perhaps we were able to get an expiring contract for one of Grayson or Royce and we could be at or near the luxury tax threshold next year.

But you know, all of this is just easier if we just stretched Beal.

If you did nothing you'd be $32m above the tax. Your tax bill would be $200m.
Where are you getting your numbers from? Are you including Maluach, Fleming salaries?

You didn't pay the Micic salary, you only pay Mark Williams salary, which is $6m.


It came down to sending a pick and Jalen Green to the Nets capspace or stretching Beal to save the $33-34m and get out of the tax to reset the repeater.

[Saberestar]

Bradley Beal... addition by subtraction.

[Calvin Klein]

Matty

[garrick]

Right so if I as an owner of a team said to my GM, I'm happy to pay an extra $40m in luxury tax per season. Now that's an average, which means that over the next 5 years of your employment as GM you can run up a luxury tax bill of $200m total.

Knowing this, would you prefer to run up the $200m in the next 2 seasons with Beal on your team in this current format of the Suns? Or would you prefer to waive and stretch Beal to pay no tax in year 1 while you restructure the team and instead aim to use up the $200m lux tax during seasons when you are more likely to contend?

This season, if we do nothing, we'll have a tax bill of around $102m because of the repeater tax. That multiplier is a tough pill to swallow for any owner, let alone one that will run a roster that isn't expected to be a for sure playoff team. I recognise that.

That multiplier also works the other way as well. Let's say we were able to find takers for both Grayson and Royce and saw a $3m net reduction in salary. Let's also not do the Mark Williams trade so we're not picking up Micic's team option of $8.1m. That's already an $11.1m reduction in our salary. That reduction puts us under the harsher tax brackets of 5x, 6x, 7x etc. And if the calcs are correct, the tax bill is now around $35.2m. Still a high tax bill but it's 60% reduction from the ridiculous original tax bill of $100m. What if we now took the savings from a Beal buy out (around $6.7m) for this year? That's now looking like a $17.8m reduction in salary from a $22.4m starting point. Now we have a $13.7m tax bill. It's more than manageable. Could we squeeze any more savings elsewhere? The Richards contract is there. Maybe we trade down from #10 to #12 to grab Sorber instead, that's around $500k in savings. Maybe extra savings is there, maybe there isn't.

If we made the right moves (even at the cost of some draft capital), perhaps we were able to get an expiring contract for one of Grayson or Royce and we could be at or near the luxury tax threshold next year.

But you know, all of this is just easier if we just stretched Beal.

If you did nothing you'd be $32m above the tax. Your tax bill would be $200m.
Where are you getting your numbers from? Are you including Maluach, Fleming salaries?

You didn't pay the Micic salary, you only pay Mark Williams salary, which is $6m.


It came down to sending a pick and Jalen Green to the Nets capspace or stretching Beal to save the $33-34m and get out of the tax to reset the repeater.

Being under the 2nd apron is important but that 54M coming off the books in 2027-2028 could be good if Ishbia's thinking of signing quality free agents two seasons from now.

We will likely still be a rebuilding team and the only large salary we will have by then would be Book's massive super max. We're screwed whichever way though it's just trying to find the least bad outcome...

[zimpy27]

This season, if we do nothing, we'll have a tax bill of around $102m because of the repeater tax. That multiplier is a tough pill to swallow for any owner, let alone one that will run a roster that isn't expected to be a for sure playoff team. I recognise that.

That multiplier also works the other way as well. Let's say we were able to find takers for both Grayson and Royce and saw a $3m net reduction in salary. Let's also not do the Mark Williams trade so we're not picking up Micic's team option of $8.1m. That's already an $11.1m reduction in our salary. That reduction puts us under the harsher tax brackets of 5x, 6x, 7x etc. And if the calcs are correct, the tax bill is now around $35.2m. Still a high tax bill but it's 60% reduction from the ridiculous original tax bill of $100m. What if we now took the savings from a Beal buy out (around $6.7m) for this year? That's now looking like a $17.8m reduction in salary from a $22.4m starting point. Now we have a $13.7m tax bill. It's more than manageable. Could we squeeze any more savings elsewhere? The Richards contract is there. Maybe we trade down from #10 to #12 to grab Sorber instead, that's around $500k in savings. Maybe extra savings is there, maybe there isn't.

If we made the right moves (even at the cost of some draft capital), perhaps we were able to get an expiring contract for one of Grayson or Royce and we could be at or near the luxury tax threshold next year.

But you know, all of this is just easier if we just stretched Beal.

If you did nothing you'd be $32m above the tax. Your tax bill would be $200m.
Where are you getting your numbers from? Are you including Maluach, Fleming salaries?

You didn't pay the Micic salary, you only pay Mark Williams salary, which is $6m.


It came down to sending a pick and Jalen Green to the Nets capspace or stretching Beal to save the $33-34m and get out of the tax to reset the repeater.

Being under the 2nd apron is important but that 54M coming off the books in 2027-2028 could be good if Ishbia's thinking of signing quality free agents two seasons from now.

We will likely still be a rebuilding team and the only large salary we will have by then would be Book's massive super max. We're screwed whichever way though it's just trying to find the least bad outcome...

You can still open a max slot for FA if you want. Beal will be 13% of cap dead in 27-28. Not really standing in your way. Main thing in the way is the 40% cap of Green, Grayson, O'Neale then.

Ducking the tax is important, not just the apron. Resetting the repeater.

[King4Day]

If we do make a deal that sends Royce and Grayson for Collins, we'd have a couple open spots and will need a back up SG who can actually play.
Looking at who we have, it does appear like we'll have solid defensive team who can (hopefully) protect Green and Booker.
I imagine our C's will get picked on by guards on switches.
Credit to Gregory though in that, if the plan was to get a relative clean slate, he did it. The only people returning would be Book, Dunn, oso, Gilespie, and Richards.

Book / Gilespie
Green / Brea?
Brooks / Dunn / Hayes
Collins / Fleming / Oso
Williams / Richards / Maluwach

[KdoubleDees23]

Allen+O’neal make the same salary as John Collins
Allen+O’neal could be traded for Kuminga
Are we interested in either?

Kuminga and Collins are two type of players we currently do not have.
The uber athletic Kuminga with playing time and confidence would do wonders here, although we have similar players in Fleming and Dunn.
Collins is a 4/5 player who plays well above the rim and could offer us the option to create big lineups and a true PF.
With Green and Booker, Dunn and Brooks, the presence of Allen and Oneale is not required.

I would take Kuminga over Dunn any day of the week!

[KdoubleDees23]

so did we buyout Beal? I just came back from a trip and was off the grid for 7 days! Felt good.

[KdoubleDees23]

Beal about to go to the lakers

AR
Beal
Doncic
Lebron
Ayton

[zimpy27]

Looks like yall can soon call me Frankstradamus.

Zimpy… where the hell you been the past 4-5 months??? I’ve been taking body blows then you waltz in with an I Told Ya So flak jacket on ? Ha.

It’s a tough sell to this crowd, even with numbers and perks. The teeter will totter tho, this is a resilient fan base… good thing weed is legal in AZ


So to recap
Wishbia finally painted himself into the corner… and with sticky feet he orders up a new rug. It was his only path w/o completely eating shttt for not hiring a competent contractor.

Let us proceed

I post mainly on trade board and even non-Suns fans didn't like the concept of a stretch of Beal. Posted a few times here since February but just argued the case for a couple pages and just felt everyone disliked the concept.
Prob similar to you but I'm not a Suns fan so just ducking out.

I think it is probably difficult to understand the benefit to fans of a team when it's more dealing in finances. If you don't already get it and understand why it's smart to do it then it probably isn't going to be well taken.

The main reason I expected this to happen is that that Ishbia has paid $250m in luxury tax the past 3 seasons by being $31m over the tax line on average per season. But Suns were not in the repeater for any of these seasons. 25-26 would be the first repeater season and by being $31m over tax for one season the suns were looking at over $200m in luxury tax. Almost as much as the last 3 seasons combined. Just no way Suns would pay that for a team without Durant.

I think pushing Nets to take Jalen Green on Durant trade could have resolved this and Suns were clearly trying to make that happen. Failing that in the 7-team trade they've just finalised, it's now the time to stretch Beal.