RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[michaelm]

You know damned well that Lebron has taken plenty of defensive possessions off for at least a third of his career, if you are truly unbiased. It’s a stupid comparison. disagree? Fine, but it’s a difference in opinion. If you can’t deal with that, then you may want to analyze how much of a fan you really are of either player because it’s pretty obvious why one could consider it not a close comparison by now.

If not, read through our last thread and you’ll see why one can objectively come to that conclusion. And if you even after all of that, then yes, you’re likely a lebron fan, not much of a jordan fan.

To be fair LeBron was a highly elite defender, and still mostly brought it in the play-offs later in his career, and certainly did for the 4 title wins.

He hasn’t much since the 2000 title, which is why I don’t place much stock in his regular season numbers since the last title, which don’t put him ahead of Jordan if longevity past the age of 35 is a major component of the argument for same imo.

He certainly was, but I’ve seen so many subpar players put thirty on him that I consider his defense overrated. He’s just not an all time great defender.

Ingram has averaged 22, 5 and 6 on him and I just did that one random search just now, for example. Lebron’s effective against PGs and players he can use his strength effectively against. Otherwise, I think it’s not much of a comparison on that end as Jordan was much more skilled and tenacious.

Sure, I obviously take Jordan as you know. You could build a team around him which included a center who was defensively competent to defend opposing centers, and leave stopping the opposition’s best perimeter scorer to him while he also did his thing offensively.

[bledredwine]

To be fair LeBron was a highly elite defender, and still mostly brought it in the play-offs later in his career, and certainly did for the 4 title wins.

He hasn’t much since the 2000 title, which is why I don’t place much stock in his regular season numbers since the last title, which don’t put him ahead of Jordan if longevity past the age of 35 is a major component of the argument for same imo.

He certainly was, but I’ve seen so many subpar players put thirty on him that I consider his defense overrated. He’s just not an all time great defender.

Ingram has averaged 22, 5 and 6 on him and I just did that one random search just now, for example. Lebron’s effective against PGs and players he can use his strength effectively against. Otherwise, I think it’s not much of a comparison on that end as Jordan was much more skilled and tenacious.

Sure, I obviously take Jordan as you know. You could build a team around him which included a center who was defensively competent to defend opposing centers, and leave stopping the opposition’s best perimeter scorer to him while he also did his thing offensively.

Oh yeah, no worries. I just genuinely find his defense in particular overrated. It’s funny though because though he was a great defender, kobe fans in his day overrated his defense as well. Lebron’s prime defensive season really was impressive but he’s never been consistent. I think part of his issue on defense is simply his (often poor) mentality. This forum is a product of the fans it attracts, so of course someone like kobe and lebron would attract plenty of fans with their longevity and talent. But they get temporarily overrated until the next generation comes through and they’ve been retired five+ years. I actually haven’t seen a player this overrated on the defensive end, and even the finals has exposed that. He did a great job on hobbled Steph and for other certain plays throughout his career, but has gotten lit up so many times in the finals as well.

His fans make up for it by praising his versatility. Okay, then if he’s that great and competitive, why couldn’t he guard dirk or dwight? Why only smaller strong players? Why was he lit up by terry instead?

versatile?
Is versatility choosing not to guard kevin durant at his own position? I’m convinced he was afraid of the degradation of his image. If he was competitive, he would have guarded him, even after the 35 ppg flaming from the prior year.

Jordan guarded 1-3 at an elite, shut down level. Quality, not quantity.

[ScrantonBulls]

He certainly was, but I’ve seen so many subpar players put thirty on him that I consider his defense overrated. He’s just not an all time great defender.

Ingram has averaged 22, 5 and 6 on him and I just did that one random search just now, for example. Lebron’s effective against PGs and players he can use his strength effectively against. Otherwise, I think it’s not much of a comparison on that end as Jordan was much more skilled and tenacious.

Sure, I obviously take Jordan as you know. You could build a team around him which included a center who was defensively competent to defend opposing centers, and leave stopping the opposition’s best perimeter scorer to him while he also did his thing offensively.

Oh yeah, no worries. I just genuinely find his defense in particular overrated. It’s funny though because though he was a great defender, kobe fans in his day overrated his defense as well. Lebron’s prime defensive season really was impressive but he’s never been consistent. I think part of his issue on defense is simply his (often poor) mentality. This forum is a product of the fans it attracts, so of course someone like kobe and lebron would attract plenty of fans with their longevity and talent. But they get temporarily overrated until the next generation comes through and they’ve been retired five+ years. I actually haven’t seen a player this overrated on the defensive end, and even the finals has exposed that. He did a great job on hobbled Steph and for other certain plays throughout his career, but has gotten lit up so many times in the finals as well.

His fans make up for it by praising his versatility. Okay, then if he’s that great and competitive, why couldn’t he guard dirk or dwight? Why only smaller strong players? Why was he lit up by terry instead?

versatile?
Is versatility choosing not to guard kevin durant at his own position? I’m convinced he was afraid of the degradation of his image. If he was competitive, he would have guarded him, even after the 35 ppg flaming from the prior year.

Jordan guarded 1-3 at an elite, shut down level. Quality, not quantity.

Jordan was the 3rd best defender on all his championship teams. The 93-94 team was better defensively (6th in defensive rating) than the 92-93 team (7th in drtg). Hell, i could even concede they were even defensively. That still shows that those Bulls teams didn't miss a beat when losing Jordan. Now compare that to the 09-10 and 10-11 Cavs teams. Went from the 7th ranked defensive team to 29th.

Ain't even close son. LeBron was able to anchor great defenses which fell apart without him. Jordan? Well, his teams seemed awfully capable defensively without him.

[NO-KG-AI]

Where do the GOAT candidates stack up in terms of leading #1 offenses and #1 defenses? Anyone stand out in terms of almost never doing it? Anyone surrounded by offensive stars failing to lead #1 offenses? I feel like all the best passers and facilitators did it multiple times. And the overwhelming scorers, and guys who keep turnovers low seemed to do it too.

How many #1 defenses have all the best defenders been on?

[ScrantonBulls]

Where do the GOAT candidates stack up in terms of leading #1 offenses and #1 defenses? Anyone stand out in terms of almost never doing it? Anyone surrounded by offensive stars failing to lead #1 offenses? I feel like all the best passers and facilitators did it multiple times. And the overwhelming scorers, and guys who keep turnovers low seemed to do it too.

How many #1 defenses have all the best defenders been on?

I've heard of this nifty site called https://www.basketball-reference.com/ that may be exactly what you're looking for to find your answers! Or maybe even https://www.statmuse.com/

[michaelm]

Sure, I obviously take Jordan as you know. You could build a team around him which included a center who was defensively competent to defend opposing centers, and leave stopping the opposition’s best perimeter scorer to him while he also did his thing offensively.

Oh yeah, no worries. I just genuinely find his defense in particular overrated. It’s funny though because though he was a great defender, kobe fans in his day overrated his defense as well. Lebron’s prime defensive season really was impressive but he’s never been consistent. I think part of his issue on defense is simply his (often poor) mentality. This forum is a product of the fans it attracts, so of course someone like kobe and lebron would attract plenty of fans with their longevity and talent. But they get temporarily overrated until the next generation comes through and they’ve been retired five+ years. I actually haven’t seen a player this overrated on the defensive end, and even the finals has exposed that. He did a great job on hobbled Steph and for other certain plays throughout his career, but has gotten lit up so many times in the finals as well.

His fans make up for it by praising his versatility. Okay, then if he’s that great and competitive, why couldn’t he guard dirk or dwight? Why only smaller strong players? Why was he lit up by terry instead?

versatile?
Is versatility choosing not to guard kevin durant at his own position? I’m convinced he was afraid of the degradation of his image. If he was competitive, he would have guarded him, even after the 35 ppg flaming from the prior year.

Jordan guarded 1-3 at an elite, shut down level. Quality, not quantity.

Jordan was the 3rd best defender on all his championship teams. The 93-94 team was better defensively (6th in defensive rating) than the 92-93 team (7th in drtg). Hell, i could even concede they were even defensively. That still shows that those Bulls teams didn't miss a beat when losing Jordan. Now compare that to the 09-10 and 10-11 Cavs teams. Went from the 7th ranked defensive team to 29th.

Ain't even close son. LeBron was able to anchor great defenses which fell apart without him. Jordan? Well, his teams seemed awfully capable defensively without him.

You are obviously once again commenting, no doubt sagely in your view, about events you didn’t actually observe.

You also have never explained to me how good teams being built around Jordan which didn’t totally founder without him, as is the wont of LeBron’s teams without LeBron, while still requiring Jordan to take them over the top in the play-offs/become all time great teams is evidence in favour of LeBron vs Jordan.

[bledredwine]

Oh yeah, no worries. I just genuinely find his defense in particular overrated. It’s funny though because though he was a great defender, kobe fans in his day overrated his defense as well. Lebron’s prime defensive season really was impressive but he’s never been consistent. I think part of his issue on defense is simply his (often poor) mentality. This forum is a product of the fans it attracts, so of course someone like kobe and lebron would attract plenty of fans with their longevity and talent. But they get temporarily overrated until the next generation comes through and they’ve been retired five+ years. I actually haven’t seen a player this overrated on the defensive end, and even the finals has exposed that. He did a great job on hobbled Steph and for other certain plays throughout his career, but has gotten lit up so many times in the finals as well.

His fans make up for it by praising his versatility. Okay, then if he’s that great and competitive, why couldn’t he guard dirk or dwight? Why only smaller strong players? Why was he lit up by terry instead?

versatile?
Is versatility choosing not to guard kevin durant at his own position? I’m convinced he was afraid of the degradation of his image. If he was competitive, he would have guarded him, even after the 35 ppg flaming from the prior year.

Jordan guarded 1-3 at an elite, shut down level. Quality, not quantity.

Jordan was the 3rd best defender on all his championship teams. The 93-94 team was better defensively (6th in defensive rating) than the 92-93 team (7th in drtg). Hell, i could even concede they were even defensively. That still shows that those Bulls teams didn't miss a beat when losing Jordan. Now compare that to the 09-10 and 10-11 Cavs teams. Went from the 7th ranked defensive team to 29th.

Ain't even close son. LeBron was able to anchor great defenses which fell apart without him. Jordan? Well, his teams seemed awfully capable defensively without him.

You are obviously once again commenting, no doubt sagely in your view, about events you didn’t actually observe.

You also have never explained to me how good teams being built around Jordan which didn’t totally founder without him, as is the wont of LeBron’s teams without LeBron, while still requiring Jordan to take them over the top in the play-offs/become all time great teams is evidence in favour of LeBron vs Jordan.

He actually doesn’t know a thing about the Bulls, and obviously Jordan. The screen name is a smokescreen. You can ignore him if you also don’t take him seriously- these posts say nothing so there’s nothing to reply to; he just makes himself look bad.

Actually, I enjoy it when he makes threads for this reason. I’m convinced that it sways polls like this even more in Jordan’s favor since each one of his threads causes the opposite/adverse response. If you post ridiculous things, it only strengths the opposing views and poster’s already established opinions.

The word “son” also shows you that he’s just a harmless highschool kid. Only kids say son.

[ScrantonBulls]

Jordan was the 3rd best defender on all his championship teams. The 93-94 team was better defensively (6th in defensive rating) than the 92-93 team (7th in drtg). Hell, i could even concede they were even defensively. That still shows that those Bulls teams didn't miss a beat when losing Jordan. Now compare that to the 09-10 and 10-11 Cavs teams. Went from the 7th ranked defensive team to 29th.

Ain't even close son. LeBron was able to anchor great defenses which fell apart without him. Jordan? Well, his teams seemed awfully capable defensively without him.

You are obviously once again commenting, no doubt sagely in your view, about events you didn’t actually observe.

You also have never explained to me how good teams being built around Jordan which didn’t totally founder without him, as is the wont of LeBron’s teams without LeBron, while still requiring Jordan to take them over the top in the play-offs/become all time great teams is evidence in favour of LeBron vs Jordan.

He actually doesn’t know a thing about the Bulls, and obviously Jordan. The screen name is a smokescreen. You can ignore him if you also don’t take him seriously- these posts say nothing so there’s nothing to reply to; he just makes himself look bad.

Actually, I enjoy it when he makes threads for this reason. I’m convinced that it sways polls like this even more in Jordan’s favor since each one of his threads causes the opposite/adverse response. If you post ridiculous things, it only strengths the opposing views and poster’s already established opinions.

The word “son” also shows you that he’s just a harmless highschool kid. Only kids say son.

Lol dude, you've proven constantly that you know nothing about Jordan despite being a Jordan superfan. You have never answered for your quote in my signature because it's so egregiously embarrassing for a Jordan superfan to know so little about MJ. In fact, there's no way you watched him play or that era if you thought all of that was true.

You thought the Bulls beat the bad boys Pistons in the 1989 WCF (they didn't). You thought Jordan was playing during the 1995 playoffs (he didn't), you thought they made it to the ECF (they didn't) and you thought they beat the Knicks (didn't happen). There is no way you watched the Bulls back then.

[Loneshot]

Lebron gets the GOAT title for winning a championship on multiple teams as the first option. He was never not the first option, so to lead three different teams (separate conferences as well) to a title is pretty good evidence of a uniquely great player.

[MavsDirk41]

Lebron gets the GOAT title for winning a championship on multiple teams as the first option. He was never not the first option, so to lead three different teams (separate conferences as well) to a title is pretty good evidence of a uniquely great player.

Would of had a 3 peat if he showed up in 2011

[bledredwine]

Lebron gets the GOAT title for winning a championship on multiple teams as the first option. He was never not the first option, so to lead three different teams (separate conferences as well) to a title is pretty good evidence of a uniquely great player.

Would of had a 3 peat if he showed up in 2011

or a 1-peat if his ass wasn’t saved.

[ScrantonBulls]

Lebron gets the GOAT title for winning a championship on multiple teams as the first option. He was never not the first option, so to lead three different teams (separate conferences as well) to a title is pretty good evidence of a uniquely great player.

Would of had a 3 peat if he showed up in 2011

or a 1-peat if his ass wasn’t saved.

There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the NY Knicks

[bledredwine]

Would of had a 3 peat if he showed up in 2011

or a 1-peat if his ass wasn’t saved.

There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the NY Knicks

I get it, you’re projecting because you didn’t witness the Bulls and I did.

But I hope that you realize I don’t care at all that you post this. You make yourself look silly and desperate, especially since ai actually went to games when I was young.
And the funny thing is that it communicates that you conceded and literally have nothing to say back. But I think that I’m going to start reading some of your posts and reporting them since they’re so childish in the first place.

unrelated or insult = you’ve given up and have nothing to say, every single time, fake bulls fan. Poll has Mj at 3.5X of Lebrick’s votes

[Gregoire]

73 to 22. Flawless victory.

[VanWest82]

Every 93 vs 94 Bulls post should have to come with a disclaimer that outside of Jordan that entire team in 93, especially Scottie and Horace, basically mailed in the regular season. It was a classic year three of a three-peat coupled with internal team issues bubbling to the surface with MJ getting the lion’s share of the credit for team success. 94 OTOH was prove-we-can-do-it-without-Jordan level effort from Bulls. Night and day. Go watch the games and tell me there wasn’t a massive difference in how hard Scottie and Horace played.

[The4thHorseman]

What's that say about the league in 1993 if Grant and Pippen were both able to "basically" take the regular season off yet both still made the All Defensive team while Pippen also made All-NBA?

[VanWest82]

What's that say about the league in 1993 if Grant and Pippen were both able to "basically" take the regular season off yet both still made the All Defensive team while Pippen also made All-NBA?

You mean what does it say about the voter group and their propensity to vote based on reputation over actual impact.

As for league quality in 93, it was super high with numerous high quality teams in both East and West. NBA handled the first couple rounds of expansion well before the league got watered down in the mid-late 90s. You had new ATG talent (Shaq, DRob, GP/Kemp, GHill) entering the league with 80s ATGs (Jordan, Barkley, Dream, Stockton/Malone, Ewing, Price/Daugherty, Clyde/Porter) in their prime. The fact that Bulls had so much trouble with Knicks in 93 (and Knicks and Cavs in 92) despite Scottie and Horace actually trying (and getting punked) and MJ legit struggling vs Knicks in first three games of 93, plus teams like Blazers and Suns taking two games in their series vs. prime MJ Bulls says a lot about league quality. The early 90s being weak is without a doubt one of the dumbest anti-Jordan arguments going. Early 90s is in contention for the greatest NBA era of all time before even getting to the swan songs for the Birds, Magics, Isiahs, etc.

[michaelm]

What's that say about the league in 1993 if Grant and Pippen were both able to "basically" take the regular season off yet both still made the All Defensive team while Pippen also made All-NBA?

You mean what does it say about the voter group and their propensity to vote based on reputation over actual impact.

As for league quality in 93, it was super high with numerous high quality teams in both East and West. NBA handled the first couple rounds of expansion well before the league got watered down in the mid-late 90s. You had new ATG talent (Shaq, DRob, GP/Kemp, GHill) entering the league with 80s ATGs (Jordan, Barkley, Dream, Stockton/Malone, Ewing, Price/Daugherty, Clyde/Porter) in their prime. The fact that Bulls had so much trouble with Knicks in 93 (and Knicks and Cavs in 92) despite Scottie and Horace actually trying (and getting punked) and MJ legit struggling vs Knicks in first three games of 93, plus teams like Blazers and Suns taking two games in their series vs. prime MJ Bulls says a lot about league quality. The early 90s being weak is without a doubt one of the dumbest anti-Jordan arguments going. Early 90s is in contention for the greatest NBA era of all time before even getting to the swan songs for the Birds, Magics, Isiahs, etc.

There is a case to be made for LeBron, particularly in terms of the wide range of his attributes as an individual player imo, but not one that convinces me. I admit to bias, Jordan was the guy in days when I was considerably younger which predisposes to viewing past events with rose coloured glasses and I have never liked the playing style of LeBron’s teams except perhaps for the 4th title with AD, but attempting to retrofit Jordan’s heyday which those concerned fairly clearly didn’t observe to exalt LeBron 30 years later doesn’t cut it, again only imo of course. Sure Jordan’s team was good, a point in his favour in my view, and Pippen was a particularly good foil for him, but there wasn’t much doubt about the identity of the main man back then.

And even if the numbers on the poll for this thread reflect the continuing strength of the Jordan publicity machine 30 years on that in itself is remarkable and strongly suggests that publicity machine had something to work with anyway, and it is not as though there hasn’t been a LeBron publicity machine in emulation of Jordan’s but with far wider media coverage of the sport these days. As others have said if LeBron can only garner 21% of the vote while still an active player it would seem unlikely that his status will rise to anything which challenges MJ in his retirement.

[ScrantonBulls]

or a 1-peat if his ass wasn’t saved.

There were 3 times Jordan won and was considered the underdog

1989 Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons, the 1991 NBA Finals against the Magic Johnson-led Los Angeles Lakers, and the 1995 Eastern Conference Finals against the NY Knicks

I get it, you’re projecting because you didn’t witness the Bulls and I did.

But I hope that you realize I don’t care at all that you post this. You make yourself look silly and desperate, especially since ai actually went to games when I was young.
And the funny thing is that it communicates that you conceded and literally have nothing to say back. But I think that I’m going to start reading some of your posts and reporting them since they’re so childish in the first place.

unrelated or insult = you’ve given up and have nothing to say, every single time, fake bulls fan. Poll has Mj at 3.5X of Lebrick’s votes

You thought the Bulls beat the bad boys Pistons in the 1989 WCF (they didn't). You thought the Bulls made the ECF when MJ returned in 1995 (they didn't) and you thought they beat the Knicks in the ECF to make the finals (didn't happen).

Sorry man, there is just zero chance in hell you watched basketball then. A self proclaimed MJ fanatic getting the most well known and obvious parts of his career completely wrong? How does an MJ fan think they beat the Bad Boys on 1989? Losing to the Bad Boys then finally overcoming them is such a notable part of his career arc.

You thought the Bulls made the finals in 1995 when he returned. I mean, really? I can't believe I forgot that we got the ever-sought-afrer MJ vs Hakeem finals Not as egregious as thinking MJ beat the Bad Boys in 1989, but still something completely obvious to somebody that watched 90s NBA, let alone MJ's #1 white knight.

[ScrantonBulls]

What's that say about the league in 1993 if Grant and Pippen were both able to "basically" take the regular season off yet both still made the All Defensive team while Pippen also made All-NBA?

It means that Jordan's greatness and will to win was so unbelievable, not only did he carry a team that had their #2 and #3 players slacking throughout the season, but he also carried those players to All-Defensive and All-NBA awards. Incredible!