Let's talk about a Vuc buyout

[nomorezorro]

focus all your psychic energy on making the celtics spin off simons to us for vucevic...that's as good as it's gonna get

[Red Larrivee]

Unless you're getting worthwhile draft capital, which I heavily doubt would be the case in a Stewart/Vuc deal, I'm fine buying him out.

[drosestruts]

I'd prefer a buyout over acquiring Stewart or Simons

[Stratmaster]

There's little to no reason at all to buy him out...he's an expiring, one of the few vets on the team and one of our only C's...besides that if anyone wants him they can ask for him, but no one really wants him all that bad right now, wait till the deadline, if no one wants him then you can think about a buy out

Also why on earth would you be asking for a 1st for him at this point! Your lucky to get a 2nd at best really

This. What is the point in buying him out?

If he "wants to play for a contender" he has to know that would likely be as the first big off the bench. His minutes were already being reduced last season. The Bulls aren't contending for anything in the near future. I guess the question is does the coach have the balls to actually do what is right for the team and bring him off the bench. Billy hasn't shown a willingness to do anything that might upset Vuc. Was the same with Demar.

At some point by the trade deadline, maybe you can find a contending team willing to give up something to rent Vuc due to an injury situation. Otherwise, it isn't going to make a difference if the coach understands his job this season.

[Hangtime84]

focus all your psychic energy on making the celtics spin off simons to us for vucevic...that's as good as it's gonna get

Unless simons goes to a 3rd team

[MGB8]

Unless you're getting worthwhile draft capital, which I heavily doubt would be the case in a Stewart/Vuc deal, I'm fine buying him out.

Here is the thing - if you could get two 2nd rounders - that isn’t much of anything. BUT, it is also what Cam Whitmore just went for…. and maybe the lack of 2nd rounders kept the Bulls from taking a flier on him. Or the next guy who might be something more than our bench guys (even if he probably isn’t)… ya know?

We’re asset poor. If we had a good asset pool, I wouldn’t really care. But with the dearth of assets, not taking one last shot (at the trade deadline) to move Vuc for something in return sorta chafes.

[Red Larrivee]

Unless you're getting worthwhile draft capital, which I heavily doubt would be the case in a Stewart/Vuc deal, I'm fine buying him out.

Here is the thing - if you could get two 2nd rounders - that isn’t much of anything. BUT, it is also what Cam Whitmore just went for…. and maybe the lack of 2nd rounders kept the Bulls from taking a flier on him. Or the next guy who might be something more than our bench guys (even if he probably isn’t)… ya know?

We’re asset poor. If we had a good asset pool, I wouldn’t really care. But with the dearth of assets, not taking one last shot (at the trade deadline) to move Vuc for something in return sorta chafes.

I think it's unrealistic to expect to get something in return for every player on their way out. So, if we never get anything for him, it is what it is at this point. Sunk cost; move forward.

I don't think taking on a two-year deal is worth it for some future second rounders regardless of asset pool. There's more value in letting Vuc expire and using the cap space to do what you want.

[ChiTownHero1992]

To me there are only 3 options:
1) Let him play out his last season with us and he walks in FA - fine by me
2) Let him play out half the season, trade him at the deadline for a tiny "asset" - likely just a 2nd as he has very little value
3) Let him play out half the season, try to trade him at deadline, no one bites so you buy him out for the remainder

Anything beyond those 3 options seems unlikely or unnecessary (multi-year "assets" like Simons or Stewart are not worth the cost), buying him out now is just a waste of "what could happen" and trying to hold out for a 1st or youth is just laughable at this point

[MGB8]

Unless you're getting worthwhile draft capital, which I heavily doubt would be the case in a Stewart/Vuc deal, I'm fine buying him out.

Here is the thing - if you could get two 2nd rounders - that isn’t much of anything. BUT, it is also what Cam Whitmore just went for…. and maybe the lack of 2nd rounders kept the Bulls from taking a flier on him. Or the next guy who might be something more than our bench guys (even if he probably isn’t)… ya know?

We’re asset poor. If we had a good asset pool, I wouldn’t really care. But with the dearth of assets, not taking one last shot (at the trade deadline) to move Vuc for something in return sorta chafes.

I think it's unrealistic to expect to get something in return for every player on their way out. So, if we never get anything for him, it is what it is at this point. Sunk cost; move forward.

I don't think taking on a two-year deal is worth it for some future second rounders regardless of asset pool. There's more value in letting Vuc expire and using the cap space to do what you want.

But keep in mind the pro-rated nature of traded mid-season salaries. That may mean that there is an expiring that can come back, or a much smaller next year salary - though intentions regarding Huerter, Collins, Coby and Ayo do matter there. Just glanced and the FA pool for 26-27 isn’t particularly enticing. Old guys who aren’t coming to a non-contender, LaVine, Fox, Hartenstein, Porzingis, Mitch Robinson, Keegan Murray, a few other meh guys, and a lot of RFAs who won’t be coming (or even moving).

Anyway, can always buy him out at mid-season or just let him walk if offers are unappealing. Getting a look at another minimum guy who is unlikely to play vs Vuc, or resigning THT, doesn’t mean much to me.

[dougthonus]

I think it's unrealistic to expect to get something in return for every player on their way out. So, if we never get anything for him, it is what it is at this point. Sunk cost; move forward.

I don't think taking on a two-year deal is worth it for some future second rounders regardless of asset pool. There's more value in letting Vuc expire and using the cap space to do what you want.

I agree with this completely in terms of theme. You shouldn't pay 20M in cap space room when you are under the cap in order to get two second round picks. That said, if you could flip him for a worse player that is also expiring (perhaps at a higher salary) that saves some money for another team in luxury tax trouble and improves them and get a couple 2nd rounders, it's okay to have him around for that.

At the same time, hard to believe that Zach Collins couldn't just fill that exact same role anyway given the similarities of their salaries, so probably pretty marginal benefit even in that scenario.

[MGB8]

I think it's unrealistic to expect to get something in return for every player on their way out. So, if we never get anything for him, it is what it is at this point. Sunk cost; move forward.

I don't think taking on a two-year deal is worth it for some future second rounders regardless of asset pool. There's more value in letting Vuc expire and using the cap space to do what you want.

I agree with this completely in terms of theme. You shouldn't pay 20M in cap space room when you are under the cap in order to get two second round picks. That said, if you could flip him for a worse player that is also expiring (perhaps at a higher salary) that saves some money for another team in luxury tax trouble and improves them and get a couple 2nd rounders, it's okay to have him around for that.

At the same time, hard to believe that Zach Collins couldn't just fill that exact same role anyway given the similarities of their salaries, so probably pretty marginal benefit even in that scenario.

The Bulls may want to keep Collins after this year, though. Billy seemed to like him.

[Red Larrivee]

But keep in mind the pro-rated nature of traded mid-season salaries. That may mean that there is an expiring that can come back, or a much smaller next year salary - though intentions regarding Huerter, Collins, Coby and Ayo do matter there. Just glanced and the FA pool for 26-27 isn’t particularly enticing. Old guys who aren’t coming to a non-contender, LaVine, Fox, Hartenstein, Porzingis, Mitch Robinson, Keegan Murray, a few other meh guys, and a lot of RFAs who won’t be coming (or even moving).

Anyway, can always buy him out at mid-season or just let him walk if offers are unappealing. Getting a look at another minimum guy who is unlikely to play vs Vuc, or resigning THT, doesn’t mean much to me.

It should scream volumes that there's no market for Vuc coming off a career year for him. He set career-highs in FG%, 3P% and TS% at age 34 and he's an expiring contract. Teams understand that year-to-year, his offense comes and goes, but his defense has been consistently bad.

Expiring contracts are still valuable, but the Bulls are confined in the types of deals they can do with him

1. They probably don't want anything long-term, which would be the primary use of an expiring to begin with.
2. It's difficult to find an expiring-for-expiring trade.
2a. If you do find one, does that team really have use for Vuc in a market where teams are signing centers for a fraction of the price?
3. They don't want to attach assets to him, because he does no harm to their cap as an expiring.

I just can't imagine his market improving at the deadline. There doesn't seem to be a path to getting assets for him or a more useful player. I think the only way Vuc has a market is if he's bought out and hits UFA. Him on any MLE deal would be useful to contenders off the bench.

Keeping Vuc at this point is purely about basketball. He's not an awful player, but he doesn't fit the style of play and he's in the back-end of his career. It makes sense to move on and let Smith and Collins play. Or, if you move Ayo or Coby and get a rim runner.

[kodo]

Unless you're getting worthwhile draft capital, which I heavily doubt would be the case in a Stewart/Vuc deal, I'm fine buying him out.

Here is the thing - if you could get two 2nd rounders - that isn’t much of anything. BUT, it is also what Cam Whitmore just went for…. and maybe the lack of 2nd rounders kept the Bulls from taking a flier on him. Or the next guy who might be something more than our bench guys (even if he probably isn’t)… ya know?

We’re asset poor. If we had a good asset pool, I wouldn’t really care. But with the dearth of assets, not taking one last shot (at the trade deadline) to move Vuc for something in return sorta chafes.

Not just Whitmore. NAW was also traded for a 2nd rounder, 2nd rounders got Portland Jrue Holiday for Simons.
They're a good currency for getting trades done, and we don't have any til 2028. And not surprisingly we're not doing much in the offseason.

[drosestruts]

Unless you're getting worthwhile draft capital, which I heavily doubt would be the case in a Stewart/Vuc deal, I'm fine buying him out.

Here is the thing - if you could get two 2nd rounders - that isn’t much of anything. BUT, it is also what Cam Whitmore just went for…. and maybe the lack of 2nd rounders kept the Bulls from taking a flier on him. Or the next guy who might be something more than our bench guys (even if he probably isn’t)… ya know?

We’re asset poor. If we had a good asset pool, I wouldn’t really care. But with the dearth of assets, not taking one last shot (at the trade deadline) to move Vuc for something in return sorta chafes.

Not just Whitmore. NAW was also traded for a 2nd rounder, 2nd rounders got Portland Jrue Holiday for Simons.
They're a good currency for getting trades done, and we don't have any til 2028. And not surprisingly we're not doing much in the offseason.

Holiday for Simons was a straight player for player swap - AK/ME style.

The initial reporting was wrong. Or they changed the compensation later for some reason.

[MGB8]

But keep in mind the pro-rated nature of traded mid-season salaries. That may mean that there is an expiring that can come back, or a much smaller next year salary - though intentions regarding Huerter, Collins, Coby and Ayo do matter there. Just glanced and the FA pool for 26-27 isn’t particularly enticing. Old guys who aren’t coming to a non-contender, LaVine, Fox, Hartenstein, Porzingis, Mitch Robinson, Keegan Murray, a few other meh guys, and a lot of RFAs who won’t be coming (or even moving).

Anyway, can always buy him out at mid-season or just let him walk if offers are unappealing. Getting a look at another minimum guy who is unlikely to play vs Vuc, or resigning THT, doesn’t mean much to me.

It should scream volumes that there's no market for Vuc coming off a career year for him. He set career-highs in FG%, 3P% and TS% at age 34 and he's an expiring contract. Teams understand that year-to-year, his offense comes and goes, but his defense has been consistently bad.

Expiring contracts are still valuable, but the Bulls are confined in the types of deals they can do with him

1. They probably don't want anything long-term, which would be the primary use of an expiring to begin with.
2. It's difficult to find an expiring-for-expiring trade.
2a. If you do find one, does that team really have use for Vuc in a market where teams are signing centers for a fraction of the price?
3. They don't want to attach assets to him, because he does no harm to their cap as an expiring.

I just can't imagine his market improving at the deadline. There doesn't seem to be a path to getting assets for him or a more useful player. I think the only way Vuc has a market is if he's bought out and hits UFA. Him on any MLE deal would be useful to contenders off the bench.

Keeping Vuc at this point is purely about basketball. He's not an awful player, but he doesn't fit the style of play and he's in the back-end of his career. It makes sense to move on and let Smith and Collins play. Or, if you move Ayo or Coby and get a rim runner.

I disagree. Or, more accurately, I think you are taking your expectations as given truth, when they are just expectations.

Guys with similar expiring contracts (up to 8 M more cuz can package a Carter or whatever) include Terry Rozier, Simons, John Collins, Tobias Harri, Marcus Smart, Nurcik, Sexton, H.Barnes, Hachimura. You can go cheaper where another team would package the expirings. And since mid-season, the pro-rated nature compresses things a bit for tax purposes, IIRC.

An injury causing a contending team to need a competent center, while far from guaranteed, would not be surprising. Vuc puttting up solid counting stats and looking good also would be unsurprising, especially if his minutes are a bit reduced so no excess wear (even if that hurts absolute volume of counting stats, may help per minute / efficiency).

And if it doesn’t… what is the harm? That you didn’t sign THT as a rotation wing?

[jnrjr79]

But keep in mind the pro-rated nature of traded mid-season salaries. That may mean that there is an expiring that can come back, or a much smaller next year salary - though intentions regarding Huerter, Collins, Coby and Ayo do matter there. Just glanced and the FA pool for 26-27 isn’t particularly enticing. Old guys who aren’t coming to a non-contender, LaVine, Fox, Hartenstein, Porzingis, Mitch Robinson, Keegan Murray, a few other meh guys, and a lot of RFAs who won’t be coming (or even moving).

Anyway, can always buy him out at mid-season or just let him walk if offers are unappealing. Getting a look at another minimum guy who is unlikely to play vs Vuc, or resigning THT, doesn’t mean much to me.

It should scream volumes that there's no market for Vuc coming off a career year for him. He set career-highs in FG%, 3P% and TS% at age 34 and he's an expiring contract. Teams understand that year-to-year, his offense comes and goes, but his defense has been consistently bad.

Expiring contracts are still valuable, but the Bulls are confined in the types of deals they can do with him

1. They probably don't want anything long-term, which would be the primary use of an expiring to begin with.
2. It's difficult to find an expiring-for-expiring trade.
2a. If you do find one, does that team really have use for Vuc in a market where teams are signing centers for a fraction of the price?
3. They don't want to attach assets to him, because he does no harm to their cap as an expiring.

I just can't imagine his market improving at the deadline. There doesn't seem to be a path to getting assets for him or a more useful player. I think the only way Vuc has a market is if he's bought out and hits UFA. Him on any MLE deal would be useful to contenders off the bench.

Keeping Vuc at this point is purely about basketball. He's not an awful player, but he doesn't fit the style of play and he's in the back-end of his career. It makes sense to move on and let Smith and Collins play. Or, if you move Ayo or Coby and get a rim runner.

Yeah, I think the bolded is the thing. You normally trade an expiring for a longer-term deal (and potentially draft capital). But if the Bulls aren't being offered juicy enough draft assets to take on the contract, maybe nothing gets done here. If it's going to be expiring-for-expiring, maybe it could be with some team. up against the tax or aprons and they have something a million bucks or two bigger than Vooch's contract on their books and would benefit from the trade. Lonzo for Okoro, for instance, saved the Cavs some $$.

[Infinity2152]

But keep in mind the pro-rated nature of traded mid-season salaries. That may mean that there is an expiring that can come back, or a much smaller next year salary - though intentions regarding Huerter, Collins, Coby and Ayo do matter there. Just glanced and the FA pool for 26-27 isn’t particularly enticing. Old guys who aren’t coming to a non-contender, LaVine, Fox, Hartenstein, Porzingis, Mitch Robinson, Keegan Murray, a few other meh guys, and a lot of RFAs who won’t be coming (or even moving).

Anyway, can always buy him out at mid-season or just let him walk if offers are unappealing. Getting a look at another minimum guy who is unlikely to play vs Vuc, or resigning THT, doesn’t mean much to me.

It should scream volumes that there's no market for Vuc coming off a career year for him. He set career-highs in FG%, 3P% and TS% at age 34 and he's an expiring contract. Teams understand that year-to-year, his offense comes and goes, but his defense has been consistently bad.

Expiring contracts are still valuable, but the Bulls are confined in the types of deals they can do with him

1. They probably don't want anything long-term, which would be the primary use of an expiring to begin with.
2. It's difficult to find an expiring-for-expiring trade.
2a. If you do find one, does that team really have use for Vuc in a market where teams are signing centers for a fraction of the price?
3. They don't want to attach assets to him, because he does no harm to their cap as an expiring.

I just can't imagine his market improving at the deadline. There doesn't seem to be a path to getting assets for him or a more useful player. I think the only way Vuc has a market is if he's bought out and hits UFA. Him on any MLE deal would be useful to contenders off the bench.

Keeping Vuc at this point is purely about basketball. He's not an awful player, but he doesn't fit the style of play and he's in the back-end of his career. It makes sense to move on and let Smith and Collins play. Or, if you move Ayo or Coby and get a rim runner.

I disagree. Or, more accurately, I think you are taking your expectations as given truth, when they are just expectations.

Guys with similar expiring contracts (up to 8 M more cuz can package a Carter or whatever) include Terry Rozier, Simons, John Collins, Tobias Harri, Marcus Smart, Nurcik, Sexton, H.Barnes, Hachimura. You can go cheaper where another team would package the expirings. And since mid-season, the pro-rated nature compresses things a bit for tax purposes, IIRC.

An injury causing a contending team to need a competent center, while far from guaranteed, would not be surprising. Vuc puttting up solid counting stats and looking good also would be unsurprising, especially if his minutes are a bit reduced so no excess wear (even if that hurts absolute volume of counting stats, may help per minute / efficiency).

And if it doesn’t… what is the harm? That you didn’t sign THT as a rotation wing?

Good points. Kuminga hasn't moved, no one wants him? Quentin Grimes still there. No offers for Giddey, no one wants him? Cam Thomas, no offer. Took a minute to find a good deal for Kevin freaking Durant. Lavine was on the block for a year, nobody supposedly wanted him until somebody did. Like 8 centers have moved or gotten new contracts already. Some fairly big names too, Brook Lopez, Myles Turner, Naz Reid, Porzingas, DeAndre Ayton, Nurkic, Valenciunas, Mark Williams. That's not including drafted centers like Maluach.

Maybe have a little patience. Why would teams pay $20 mill for Vucevic right now when teams are buying out players left and right? Half of you want us to do the same thing, of course teams will wait and see.

Who's starting at center for the Celtics, a rumored interested party?

[Red Larrivee]

I disagree. Or, more accurately, I think you are taking your expectations as given truth, when they are just expectations.

Guys with similar expiring contracts (up to 8 M more cuz can package a Carter or whatever) include Terry Rozier, Simons, John Collins, Tobias Harri, Marcus Smart, Nurcik, Sexton, H.Barnes, Hachimura. You can go cheaper where another team would package the expirings. And since mid-season, the pro-rated nature compresses things a bit for tax purposes, IIRC.

An injury causing a contending team to need a competent center, while far from guaranteed, would not be surprising. Vuc puttting up solid counting stats and looking good also would be unsurprising, especially if his minutes are a bit reduced so no excess wear (even if that hurts absolute volume of counting stats, may help per minute / efficiency).

And if it doesn’t… what is the harm? That you didn’t sign THT as a rotation wing?

I just don't see any of the names you mentioned as something worthwhile for trading Vuc and/or the other team likely wouldn't make that deal. If we need to make a deal, we have other expiring contracts that would be more desirable. Vuc has already played as well as he's ever going to play in the backend of his career offensively and he still has no market. I don't see how holding him is going to change that.

It's not about signing someone else with the open roster spot; it's about moving on from a player who doesn't fit our style and likely doesn't want to be here anymore.

[MGB8]

Spurs just added Olynyk to back up Wemby for a 2nd and a couple aggregated expirings… and this is before injuries hit and contention is an issue. Just saying…. Bulls are asset poor. Recouping a 2nd or two would likely help in terms of having more ability for opportunistic pickups (like Whitmore, as an example). And I think that the Bulls want to keep Collins, potentially beyond this season. Smith probably less so since Billy seems to have no use for him, but he might not even be able to fetch a 2nd (much less 2) - while Vuc, for all his faults, would actually be a top reserve center.

[vxmike]

If Jonas V ends up going back to Europe I could see something transpiring where we buy out Vuc for 15-16 million and Denver uses whatever they have left of their exceptions to pick up the rest. Would be an almost lateral move for them compared to what they have now.

Vuc is better than Jonas. Let Denver trade Jonas+filler for Vuc then the Bulls can let Jonas walk and save the $$.