Bill Simmons RIPS the Raptors roster and salaries. (UPDATE Zach Lowe & Rob Mahoney go in on Raptors)

[ForeverTFC]

For one, Raps are definitely not in the top 5 bleakest future in the East, over say the next 4 years. But I don't even know how they missed the obvious candidate, the Sixers.

They did get lucky on the draft getting the 3rd overall pick (VJ), and Maxey is good, but that is two back court players. Hard to build teams around them, and the biggest anchor they have on the team are Embiid and PG3s contracts. Not only are those large contracts that are long, but they are immoveable in the near future. That is over $100M tied up in probably nothing over the next 3 seasons. Teams will only be interested in those contracts in the last year as an expiring deal, and at that point the Sixers will need them as expiring contracts.

Morey and Simmons are friends.

So I guess he needs to wait until Morey is fired, and then will talk about how bad the Sixers situation is then

He's already deflecting blame from Morey on the Embiid deal. Keeps saying that it was the owners that gave him that contract. He's probably not wrong. But this is Simmons. I've been reading and listening to this guy for decades. It's very interesting to see people here take his words and dissect them so seriously.

[mtcan]

The Raptors are far from 3rd most bleak franchise in the East.

Milwaukee is easily the most bleak. All they have is Giannis. Otherwise no prospects to speak of, little to no draft picks in the next 5 years and they are starting GTJ and KPJ because they have literally no one else. Also paying Dame 22.5 million a year for the next 5 years.

Philly is bleak if Embiid and PG can't play all-star level basketball ever again.

Brooklyn is bleaker than Toronto because their best player is Michael Porter Jr. and reached on a good number of their 5 first round picks in this past draft. Egor Demin at #8...really??? They have quite a few picks upcoming from other teams but most of them figure to be late first rounders.

Charlotte has been bleak for the past 10 years and shows no signs of changing.

Chicago is bleak because they don't seem to ever be better than a play-in team and it doesn't look like it is changing any time soon.

Atlanta is bleak because they keep insisting on building around Trae Young. No matter who they surround him with...they are only ever as good as a play-in team.

Meanwhile... Toronto's 4 biggest salaries are tied up in guys age 24-27 years of age who may still have potential for growth, we have all our upcoming draft picks and a bench full of young and competitive dudes that you can count on getting a bit better every year. We have to show results this upcoming season but to call this situation bleak without having seen the Barnes/Ingram/Quickley/Barrett/Poeltl lineup play in a situation where we are not purposely trying to lose games for draft standing...is completely asinine.

[djsunyc]

Going by the comments, I have to assume most here don’t listen to Simmons and Russillo regularly.

I’ve been reading Simmons since Page 2 and listen to Simmons and Russillo pods regularly; Simmons out of habit and Russillo because he has the best pod out there - 2nd now after Lowe.

Simmons doesn’t like the Raptors. He thinks Scottie’s contract is one of the worst in the league. He’s also extremely petty and the Perkins stuff is going to get him dug in.

Russillo hates Raptors fans because of what happened after he talked **** about Lowry. He’s made it clear that he will never forgive Raptors fans.

I will save you all the trouble with bumping this thread when over/unders come out - they will have us as one of their locks for the under.

Curious what he said about Lowry? Just recently started listening to bill and Russillo and these recent podcasts they had I could clearly see this werid agenda he has against our team. I can see why raptors fan attack him.

He's a Lowry hater (ironic given CP3 is one of his favorite players) and said he doesn't deserve to get into the hall of fame but will anyways - it was your regular US media take. Raptors fans on social media did their usual online bullying but then took it too far and brought his family and nieces into it, which got really bad and progressed to downright awful:

Read on Twitter

When this happened, Russillo said he'll never forgive Toronto, that he'll hold the entire fanbase accountable, and has since found every opportunity to **** on the Raptors and rub it in our face. I will say, when Bill said Scottie was like the 50th best player in the league, even Russillo couldn't go along with that one.

Our fanbase in particular is downright nasty online - it's beyond any other fanbase in the league. Here is more details: https://www.reddit.com/r/billsimmons/comments/itdypm/shame_on_raptors_fans/

russillo is maga. going by this, he was all but there on jan 6.

[ConSarnit]

It's only "hard to argue" with this because I've got deadlines, and this stuff has been litigated to death.

Suffice it to say I disagree with you, sir.

I'd actually like to hear your argument. In the past 3 years 7 teams have failed to win 100 combined games. We are one of those 7. Imagine I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and our clear best prospect was still Barnes, who was drafted in 2021. Our highest draft pick was 9th after missing the playoffs 3 years in a row.

If you think we haven't been poorly managed over the past 3 years you're not being objective. Our overall record and lack of high upside prospects are the proof. Not to mention waiting too long to move off our vets which resulted in sub-par returns (compared to the rest of the league) or flat out losing them for nothing (FVV).

This has been talked about ad nauseum. The biggest issue was FVV leaving.

Yeah, and that’s a terrible argument.

FVV/OG/Barnes/Siakam/Poeltl: +9 net rating

Dennis/OG/Barnes/Siakam/Poeltl: -1 net rating

Both lineups played around 350 minutes.

Do you know how much of an impact +10 net rating has on wins? It’s about 15 games.

All of sudden all of our misfortune is from losing FVV, a guy who half this board wanted jettisoned because he was “selfish”? Now he’s worth 15 wins to this team?

The excuses around here are getting crazy. It’s ok to say we’ve been a poorly run team the past few years guys.

[ciueli]

The Raptors are far from 3rd most bleak franchise in the East.

Atlanta is bleak because they keep insisting on building around Trae Young. No matter who they surround him with...they are only ever as good as a play-in team.

I agree with the basic premise (Toronto not 3rd worst in East) but I disagree that Atlanta is not in good shape. They have made some good moves this offseason and will be poised to move up in the rankings with Boston and Indiana taking a step back. And say what you want about Trae Young, but he's taken the Hawks to the playoffs 3 times and has 2 series wins, that's more than any player on our roster has done.

[mtcan]

The Raptors are far from 3rd most bleak franchise in the East.

Atlanta is bleak because they keep insisting on building around Trae Young. No matter who they surround him with...they are only ever as good as a play-in team.

I agree with the basic premise (Toronto not 3rd worst in East) but I disagree that Atlanta is not in good shape. They have made some good moves this offseason and will be poised to move up in the rankings with Boston and Indiana taking a step back. And say what you want about Trae Young, but he's taken the Hawks to the playoffs 3 times and has 2 series wins, that's more than any player on our roster has done.

That is fair but I see a Hawks franchise that has tried so many different ways to build around Trae and they have been fringe playoff/play-in/late lottery team for the last few seasons. They were even gifted a #1 overall pick the year before. I think ultimately that they will need to move on from Trae before they can truly move forward.

[CPT]

I think Trae Young **** sucks and I would swap our situation with Atlanta in half a heartbeat.

[ciueli]

The Raptors are far from 3rd most bleak franchise in the East.

Atlanta is bleak because they keep insisting on building around Trae Young. No matter who they surround him with...they are only ever as good as a play-in team.

I agree with the basic premise (Toronto not 3rd worst in East) but I disagree that Atlanta is not in good shape. They have made some good moves this offseason and will be poised to move up in the rankings with Boston and Indiana taking a step back. And say what you want about Trae Young, but he's taken the Hawks to the playoffs 3 times and has 2 series wins, that's more than any player on our roster has done.

That is fair but I see a Hawks franchise that has tried so many different ways to build around Trae and they have been fringe playoff/play-in/late lottery team for the last few seasons. They were even gifted a #1 overall pick the year before. I think ultimately that they will need to move on from Trae before they can truly move forward.

In 2020-21 the Hawks made the EC Finals and only lost to the eventual NBA champion Bucks with a "best player in the league" level showing from Giannis. And they even took two games off that team in the series including game one when Giannis put up a line of 34/12/9, it wasn't like it was a blowout in spite of the mediocre supporting cast the Hawks were fielding (meanwhile the Bucks had two All-Stars plus Brook Lopez next to Giannis).

I get the Trae Young hate because of the foul baiting and the weak defence, but realistically he's a very difficult player to guard and it's very possible to put together a competitive team around him with enough talent and defence.

[Dalek]

I think Trae Young **** sucks and I would swap our situation with Atlanta in half a heartbeat.

I don't know. Atlanta won a fair amount of games and they have some great assets.

PG: Trae Young (maybe not a star to build around but has proven more than Quickley)
SG: Dyson Daniels(may end up taking over for Trae - elite two-way PG potential), Nickeil Alexander-Walker (elite back-up PG),
SF: Zaccharie Risacher (classic 3 and D - 6'10ish frame), Luke Kennard (veteran depth piece/shooting)
PF: Jalen Johnson (equal or maybe better than Scottie in a few ways)
C: Kristaps Porziņģis (when healthy championship level stretch C), Onyeka Okongwu (elite back-up C)

Junk assets which we have better players:
Asa Newell (TBD but I think is a stretch PF which has good value), Kobe Bufkin, Vit Krejci, Daeqwon Plowden, Mouhamed Gueye

Toronto has a lot of non-shooters: Poeltl, Barnes, CMB, Mogbo that make them hard assets to fit into any context. I think with Atlanta, they have a lot of talent that is plug and play, and Toronto it's more context dependent.

Our best assets are probably: Dick, Walter, Ochai while I am not sure about whether the rest have value at their salaries or because of their lack of scoring, whether they fit on any other teams.

[Merit]

I'd actually like to hear your argument. In the past 3 years 7 teams have failed to win 100 combined games. We are one of those 7. Imagine I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and our clear best prospect was still Barnes, who was drafted in 2021. Our highest draft pick was 9th after missing the playoffs 3 years in a row.

If you think we haven't been poorly managed over the past 3 years you're not being objective. Our overall record and lack of high upside prospects are the proof. Not to mention waiting too long to move off our vets which resulted in sub-par returns (compared to the rest of the league) or flat out losing them for nothing (FVV).

This has been talked about ad nauseum. The biggest issue was FVV leaving.

Yeah, and that’s a terrible argument.

FVV/OG/Barnes/Siakam/Poeltl: +9 net rating

Dennis/OG/Barnes/Siakam/Poeltl: -1 net rating

Both lineups played around 350 minutes.

Do you know how much of an impact +10 net rating has on wins? It’s about 15 games.

All of sudden all of our misfortune is from losing FVV, a guy who half this board wanted jettisoned because he was “selfish”? Now he’s worth 15 wins to this team?

The excuses around here are getting crazy. It’s ok to say we’ve been a poorly run team the past few years guys.

lol. The biggest issue was Fred leaving - not because he’s the best player, but because the team was forced to unexpectedly change course to rebuilding instead of running it back, adding a complementary player via the MLE (Dennis Schroeder’s salary), hitting the tax and continuing to win.

It changes the entire trajectory.

For some reason, that seems like a strange concept. Two roads diverged in a wood etc.

[Merit]

I think Trae Young **** sucks and I would swap our situation with Atlanta in half a heartbeat.

I don't know. Atlanta won a fair amount of games and they have some great assets.

PG: Trae Young (maybe not a star to build around but has proven more than Quickley)
SG: Dyson Daniels(may end up taking over for Trae - elite two-way PG potential), Nickeil Alexander-Walker (elite back-up PG),
SF: Zaccharie Risacher (classic 3 and D - 6'10ish frame), Luke Kennard (veteran depth piece/shooting)
PF: Jalen Johnson (equal or maybe better than Scottie in a few ways)
C: Kristaps Porziņģis (when healthy championship level stretch C), Onyeka Okongwu (elite back-up C)

Junk assets which we have better players:
Asa Newell (TBD but I think is a stretch PF which has good value), Kobe Bufkin, Vit Krejci, Daeqwon Plowden, Mouhamed Gueye

Toronto has a lot of non-shooters: Poeltl, Barnes, CMB, Mogbo that make them hard assets to fit into any context. I think with Atlanta, they have a lot of talent that is plug and play, and Toronto it's more context dependent.

Our best assets are probably: Dick, Walter, Ochai while I am not sure about whether the rest have value at their salaries or because of their lack of scoring, whether they fit on any other teams.

Incidentally, I don’t really like risacher at the 3, and Atlanta needs one more big and one more wing. Their guard rotation is solid though.

[Merit]

It was an interesting listen, and the thing that stuck out to me is the Bill S specification that the Ingram deal was possibly the reason why Masai was pushed out. I thought it was one of the most bizarre moves trading for an injured player and then re-upping the player for a huge deal without him even playing.

I don't think it was a Bobby idea, this was all Masai working with Rich Paul to get this done. Again, like in almost every case, who was Toronto going to be outbid for if they waited until the offseason? Ingram was injured and his value at his lowest, and we signed him to a max deal before he hit the open market.

They go on to mention that with these contracts: Barnes, Quickley, Barrett, Poeltl, and Ingram, you practically have immoveable deals, or you have trade options only if you add picks. It is kind of like the Kings being stuck with Demar and most of their roster.

Rusillo said he would prefer to have roster spots and not a lot of money invested unless it is a special player. It is worth considering that Barnes and none of this core is worth building around and instead we should be collecting picks and cheap deals.

Speculation on Masai. Zero sources suggest that. Literally nobody has said anything about Masai other than Rogers being cheap and there being a rift between nepo baby Ed and Masai.

Contracts are also opinion based. I recall when it was “impossible” to move Pascal and now “we did poorly”. Special player = what exactly? Quantify that for me please.

Give BI a year and people will be calling the trade a steal. All he has to do is stay healthy.

It’s tedious to listen to outside noise - especially outside noise who haven’t actually done any research on the team and who don’t support their opinion with stats.

Bill Simmons is the Fox News of sports media.

[mtcan]

I agree with the basic premise (Toronto not 3rd worst in East) but I disagree that Atlanta is not in good shape. They have made some good moves this offseason and will be poised to move up in the rankings with Boston and Indiana taking a step back. And say what you want about Trae Young, but he's taken the Hawks to the playoffs 3 times and has 2 series wins, that's more than any player on our roster has done.

That is fair but I see a Hawks franchise that has tried so many different ways to build around Trae and they have been fringe playoff/play-in/late lottery team for the last few seasons. They were even gifted a #1 overall pick the year before. I think ultimately that they will need to move on from Trae before they can truly move forward.

In 2020-21 the Hawks made the EC Finals and only lost to the eventual NBA champion Bucks with a "best player in the league" level showing from Giannis. And they even took two games off that team in the series including game one when Giannis put up a line of 34/12/9, it wasn't like it was a blowout in spite of the mediocre supporting cast the Hawks were fielding (meanwhile the Bucks had two All-Stars plus Brook Lopez next to Giannis).

I get the Trae Young hate because of the foul baiting and the weak defence, but realistically he's a very difficult player to guard and it's very possible to put together a competitive team around him with enough talent and defence.

Aside from that one season...the Hawks have been really mediocre-bad in the 4 seasons since.

And every off-season it seems that there is another attempt at retooling the roster around Trae.

The one year it was trading several first round picks for Dejounte Murray...then it was trading Murray for Dyson Daniels then it was trading DeAndre Hunter for Caris LeVert and Terrence Mann, etc. I like their young guys...Zach Risacher, Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels but I think Trae is the weak link.

I just think Trae as your franchise cornerstone just isn't going to work out. I have respect ATL for doing all they could to build around him. I think a reason for hanging on to him for so long also has to do with saving face for having had the pick that could have just been Luka Doncic and trading Luka for Trae.

[NoBias]

People still listen to Bill Simmons?

[Ball4life32]

That is fair but I see a Hawks franchise that has tried so many different ways to build around Trae and they have been fringe playoff/play-in/late lottery team for the last few seasons. They were even gifted a #1 overall pick the year before. I think ultimately that they will need to move on from Trae before they can truly move forward.

In 2020-21 the Hawks made the EC Finals and only lost to the eventual NBA champion Bucks with a "best player in the league" level showing from Giannis. And they even took two games off that team in the series including game one when Giannis put up a line of 34/12/9, it wasn't like it was a blowout in spite of the mediocre supporting cast the Hawks were fielding (meanwhile the Bucks had two All-Stars plus Brook Lopez next to Giannis).

I get the Trae Young hate because of the foul baiting and the weak defence, but realistically he's a very difficult player to guard and it's very possible to put together a competitive team around him with enough talent and defence.

Aside from that one season...the Hawks have been really mediocre-bad in the 4 seasons since.

And every off-season it seems that there is another attempt at retooling the roster around Trae.

The one year it was trading several first round picks for Dejounte Murray...then it was trading Murray for Dyson Daniels then it was trading DeAndre Hunter for Caris LeVert and Terrence Mann, etc. I like their young guys...Zach Risacher, Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels but I think Trae is the weak link.

I just think Trae as your franchise cornerstone just isn't going to work out. I have respect ATL for doing all they could to build around him. I think a reason for hanging on to him for so long also has to do with saving face for having had the pick that could have just been Luka Doncic and trading Luka for Trae.

His playmaking is insanely underrated and not saying he’s doesn’t have flaws but no way you can blame him for everything especially like Dejounte being a poor fit and hawks retooled around a young roster and exceeded expectations almost finishing .500 and that’s with Jalen Johnson going down half way through the season (they were top 6 seed before he went down)

Read on Twitter

?s=61

[mtcan]

In 2020-21 the Hawks made the EC Finals and only lost to the eventual NBA champion Bucks with a "best player in the league" level showing from Giannis. And they even took two games off that team in the series including game one when Giannis put up a line of 34/12/9, it wasn't like it was a blowout in spite of the mediocre supporting cast the Hawks were fielding (meanwhile the Bucks had two All-Stars plus Brook Lopez next to Giannis).

I get the Trae Young hate because of the foul baiting and the weak defence, but realistically he's a very difficult player to guard and it's very possible to put together a competitive team around him with enough talent and defence.

Aside from that one season...the Hawks have been really mediocre-bad in the 4 seasons since.

And every off-season it seems that there is another attempt at retooling the roster around Trae.

The one year it was trading several first round picks for Dejounte Murray...then it was trading Murray for Dyson Daniels then it was trading DeAndre Hunter for Caris LeVert and Terrence Mann, etc. I like their young guys...Zach Risacher, Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels but I think Trae is the weak link.

I just think Trae as your franchise cornerstone just isn't going to work out. I have respect ATL for doing all they could to build around him. I think a reason for hanging on to him for so long also has to do with saving face for having had the pick that could have just been Luka Doncic and trading Luka for Trae.

His playmaking is insanely underrated and not saying he’s doesn’t have flaws but no way you can blame him for everything especially like Dejounte being a poor fit and hawks retooled around a young roster and exceeded expectations almost finishing .500 and that’s with Jalen Johnson going down half way through the season (they were top 6 seed before he went down)

Read on Twitter

?s=61

I was pretty high on the Hawks after they came close to making the finals...but I feel like the more they try to build around Trae...while the team usually looks good on paper in the summer...results have been lacking. The common denominator here has always been Trae.

We shall see if they are good enough to not finish in the play-in this season. And ya...this is an example of a team that has not been tanking the last 4 years and actually trying really hard to win but falling short for one reason or another...year after year. And yet the Raptors having a completely new starting 5 and having spent the last 2 seasons deliberately trying to lose games are called out for being bleak while the Hawks are never mentioned as such despite being what I consider...a treadmill team for the past 4 years.

[ConSarnit]

It was an interesting listen, and the thing that stuck out to me is the Bill S specification that the Ingram deal was possibly the reason why Masai was pushed out. I thought it was one of the most bizarre moves trading for an injured player and then re-upping the player for a huge deal without him even playing.

I don't think it was a Bobby idea, this was all Masai working with Rich Paul to get this done. Again, like in almost every case, who was Toronto going to be outbid for if they waited until the offseason? Ingram was injured and his value at his lowest, and we signed him to a max deal before he hit the open market.

They go on to mention that with these contracts: Barnes, Quickley, Barrett, Poeltl, and Ingram, you practically have immoveable deals, or you have trade options only if you add picks. It is kind of like the Kings being stuck with Demar and most of their roster.

Rusillo said he would prefer to have roster spots and not a lot of money invested unless it is a special player. It is worth considering that Barnes and none of this core is worth building around and instead we should be collecting picks and cheap deals.

Speculation on Masai. Zero sources suggest that. Literally nobody has said anything about Masai other than Rogers being cheap and there being a rift between nepo baby Ed and Masai.

Contracts are also opinion based. I recall when it was “impossible” to move Pascal and now “we did poorly”. Special player = what exactly? Quantify that for me please.

Give BI a year and people will be calling the trade a steal. All he has to do is stay healthy.

It’s tedious to listen to outside noise - especially outside noise who haven’t actually done any research on the team and who don’t support their opinion with stats.

Bill Simmons is the Fox News of sports media.

BI never stays healthy. He also is on the exact same contract (shorter length but relative to the cap) that he was on in NOP. I can’t recall anyone calling him a steal then. If Ingram plays well he is an expiring deal given that he has a player option. If he plays well he’ll opt out (which kills a lot of his trade value and basically makes him as valuable as when we traded for him). If he’s injured then he’ll opt in because he can’t get that money on the open market. Given the nature of Ingram’s contract it is almost impossible we’re going to get “steal” value out of him. Best case is we get 1 all-star season out of and then we’re staring down the barrel of having to give him a bigger contract.

[Kurtz]

The Hawks are stacked next year - I'm betting on a top 4 record in the East, and wouldn't be shocked it they went on an Indiana-like run. The Champ is coming out of the West though.

[earthtone]

It's really hard to argue against the fact that the Raptors are dog water and have been managed terribly by Masai and Co the last 3-4 years.

....

It's only "hard to argue" with this because I've got deadlines, and this stuff has been litigated to death.

Suffice it to say I disagree with you, sir.

I'd actually like to hear your argument. In the past 3 years 7 teams have failed to win 100 combined games. We are one of those 7. Imagine I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and our clear best prospect was still Barnes, who was drafted in 2021. Our highest draft pick was 9th after missing the playoffs 3 years in a row.

If you think we haven't been poorly managed over the past 3 years you're not being objective. Our overall record and lack of high upside prospects are the proof. Not to mention waiting too long to move off our vets which resulted in sub-par returns (compared to the rest of the league) or flat out losing them for nothing (FVV).

Spark notes version on why I don’t think we’ve been poorly managed is that we’re about to enter a season with average to above average starters at every position in our starting five, and a very young and talented bench with room to grow.

It’s fair to dislike the moves but there’s nothing more ‘objective’ about having a negative view of the roster than there is for those who have a positive view.

We went through a rebuild and we’ve come out the otherside with an interesting and talented group of players. We’ll see how it fits together on court this season

[Los_29]

It's really hard to argue against the fact that the Raptors are dog water and have been managed terribly by Masai and Co the last 3-4 years.

....

It's only "hard to argue" with this because I've got deadlines, and this stuff has been litigated to death.

Suffice it to say I disagree with you, sir.

I'd actually like to hear your argument. In the past 3 years 7 teams have failed to win 100 combined games. We are one of those 7. Imagine I told you we missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and our clear best prospect was still Barnes, who was drafted in 2021. Our highest draft pick was 9th after missing the playoffs 3 years in a row.

If you think we haven't been poorly managed over the past 3 years you're not being objective. Our overall record and lack of high upside prospects are the proof. Not to mention waiting too long to move off our vets which resulted in sub-par returns (compared to the rest of the league) or flat out losing them for nothing (FVV).

Unless we got Wemby, Scottie would still be our best prospect.

And this has been beaten to death but the offers for Pascal the year prior to when he was dealt were not good. Neither were the offers for OG. Taking those deals would actually have put us in a worse position.

There have been missteps but the problem is the ones who go to great lengths to criticize the moves this FO has made can never tell us the moves they missed out on. Who are these blue-chip prospects we missed out on? What trades did they miss out on? Would AJ Griffin and Kobe Bufkin put us in a better position to compete than BI, Ochai and Walter?