2025 Offseason Thread Vol.5

[fincane30]

And what value is that, my fellow Wigg... I mean, Heat fan?

I'm not even sold on Herro long term and would happily dump him for an upgrade if the possibility presents itself, but the strawmans and disparagement of the guy is getting silly. I've seen people claim that people on this board think he's a top 20 player in the league, and I ask, who? What post ever said that, I'd be the first one to say he's getting overrated.

It's not that he has a group of fans who overrate him and want to build the team around him, nobody ever says this. Even the posters who defend from the hate he gets don't talk about him like a franchise cornerstone. What it really is, is a group of posters that already divorced from the idea of him on the team years ago in their heads, and can't acknowledge he played pretty well last season. Combined with one in particular who makes everything a dick measuring contest to big up his favorite player who deserves a championship because... he's his favorite player? I don't even know. And yeah I'll keep bringing it up because others do too and I have nothing better to do and its the offseason.

I'm being the devil's advocate to defend Herro, and I still think he's barely a borderline top 50 player, with a ceiling as a 2nd option on a championship contender that will have to be hidden on defense, and doesn't deserve his max unless he morphs into the next Stephen Curry next season, which I do not expect. Any Herro fans on this board want to disagree with me and tell me I'm wrong there? Or conversely, anyone think that assessment is overrating him?

There is more than just realgm for people to discuss basketball. I dont get the personal attacks that seem to be rampant here. But anyways...

Go on to x, Twitter, reddit, etc.. there are comments there about herro being a top 20 talent. Just because you might not believe he's a top 50 player, doesn't mean others don't think he is.

I have never said he'd a bad player, but after watching a little more game film, he's the worst type of archtype to build ones team around. Absolute worst. If the goal is to contend, which seems to be what the bulk of heat fans want, I don't understand the cult following herro has. No team has ever won with this type of player (archtype, role, salary, etc..) But people expect herro to be a trailblazer? I think the odds are on my side with this one. It kinda reminds me of when monta Ellis was traded. The front office was boooed at games. They traded their one way bucket getter for a fundamental big in Bogut.

Back to value, after the bane trade, people suggested herro had similar value. And some thought he had more.

Personally, with his impending extension and archtype, I'm not sure he'd get you more than a player and a first from a contender. And maybe not even that. Treadmills or bottom dwellers might offer more, but that kinda makes my point.

The cult following starts up top. The delusion from the top sold Herro to the cult that he is some Devin Booker, Klay thompson on steroids type of player.

In reality he is the heat version of Brian Hartline. A white hero, that you force fed the ball to, but no where near as talented as any guard in the all nba teams.

Hartline leaves the dolphins, the fans go in an uproar because we just let go of a 1000 yard receiver, tannehlls favorite target!! and he does nothing for the other team. His position on the team was, there was no other player better. So who else will Tannehill throw the ball to. And force pass attempts to.

Even though he was severely limited, always got caught from behind, couldnt separate worth a ****, low athleticism with “deceptive” speed

Ive said it during the playoffs, Herro wouldnt be a starter in 14 of the 16 playoff teams, he wouldnt even start over Josh Hart.

First season we force the ball to him and we go what 37-45.. and that came with a flukey 10 game win streak at the very end so we could have been a lot worse.. and the cavs proved we were a lot worse.. and ty jerome, darius garland both embarassed herro.

You've used the "flukey 10 game win streak" as a slight a couple of times.

First the Heat never won 10 games in a row. They did lose 10 games in a row. Then won the next 6. By your logic, I could say if the team didn't blow leads all the time and were able to sustain offense when Herro was off the floor they would've won 45 games in the first season "we force the ball" to Herro. You win 45 games in the East and you're the 6th seed. A better seed than a Jimmy Butler led team achieved over his final two full seasons.

Secondly, perhaps the team's max player quitting on them and being suspended had plenty to do with the record as whole.

[3ballbomber]

I would prefer to send Herro to MIL and keep Bam.

Can you imagine a lineup with Giannis at SF, Bam at PF, and Ware at C?

If Bam’s truly the better player perceived around the league we’d give up less in a trade than w/ Herro is my thinking. Bam’s defence is as lethal as Herro’s scoring - wld depend on what/who we value more & further cost attached to each player.

I dont think this is even a question. Herro doesnt have the value many think he has. Bam might be a little overpaid, but his archtype is extremely valuable to any contender.

You can’t claim something w/ no tangible evidence to go by. Herro may well be more valuable than Bam. They could be close to equal. We can’t be certain until it actually happens & we see the actual return.

[3ballbomber]

Can we stop with the agenda nonsense?

Bam is our best overall player at present. He's the linchpin to our offense and defense and, while he has his own limitations, appears to be expanding his offense to better suit our needs going forward. His passiveness is what holds him back from being a perennial All-NBA player - which should be his aim going forward. He has the talent and skills to be it, which is what frustrates fans at times.

Herro is, without question, our best bucket getter and offensive player. You don't average 24/5/5 in the NBA unless you are legit. He has made huge strides with his efficiency and playmaking, but has had issues when the going gets tougher in the postseason. This is due to physical limitations and a lack of other playmakers around him to give him relief. He needs to continue to work on his body to get stronger and become a better defender and improve his deficiencies on that end of the court.

Both are massive successes for their respective draft positions at #13 and #14 overall, and crowning achievements for our player development and coaching staff.

Despite this, we're talking about the NBA. Luka Doncic just got traded. No one is untouchable and for the right deal, either of these guys are on the block. That's the reality of playing in this league.

Says who? Wade said himself on a podcast Herro is the better player but Bam is the teams better leader. Im not saying Herro is better but im not sure where this Bam is clearly better narrative is coming frm, apart frm fanboy daily antics.

[marson]

I think the Heat will have a younger, more energetic vibe next season, and overall they'll be a better version of last year's team.

I'm predicting a 5th or 6th seed finish.

-No more locker room drama, that underrated issue really affected last season.
-Norman Powell is now our oldest player at 32, and he's still a bucket. Could even start at SG.
-Bam finally gets a full offseason to rest and build chemistry with Ware.
-Year 2 of Bam at PF and Herro full-time PG running the show. Expect Spo to add more stuff to the playbook.

And that’s with Wiggins and Rozier already on the roster, we still have room to make moves, get younger and improve.

[SA37]

Spoiler:

And what value is that, my fellow Wigg... I mean, Heat fan?

I'm not even sold on Herro long term and would happily dump him for an upgrade if the possibility presents itself, but the strawmans and disparagement of the guy is getting silly. I've seen people claim that people on this board think he's a top 20 player in the league, and I ask, who? What post ever said that, I'd be the first one to say he's getting overrated.

It's not that he has a group of fans who overrate him and want to build the team around him, nobody ever says this. Even the posters who defend from the hate he gets don't talk about him like a franchise cornerstone. What it really is, is a group of posters that already divorced from the idea of him on the team years ago in their heads, and can't acknowledge he played pretty well last season. Combined with one in particular who makes everything a dick measuring contest to big up his favorite player who deserves a championship because... he's his favorite player? I don't even know. And yeah I'll keep bringing it up because others do too and I have nothing better to do and its the offseason.

I'm being the devil's advocate to defend Herro, and I still think he's barely a borderline top 50 player, with a ceiling as a 2nd option on a championship contender that will have to be hidden on defense, and doesn't deserve his max unless he morphs into the next Stephen Curry next season, which I do not expect. Any Herro fans on this board want to disagree with me and tell me I'm wrong there? Or conversely, anyone think that assessment is overrating him?

There is more than just realgm for people to discuss basketball. I dont get the personal attacks that seem to be rampant here. But anyways...

Go on to x, Twitter, reddit, etc.. there are comments there about herro being a top 20 talent. Just because you might not believe he's a top 50 player, doesn't mean others don't think he is.

I have never said he'd a bad player, but after watching a little more game film, he's the worst type of archtype to build ones team around. Absolute worst. If the goal is to contend, which seems to be what the bulk of heat fans want, I don't understand the cult following herro has. No team has ever won with this type of player (archtype, role, salary, etc..) But people expect herro to be a trailblazer? I think the odds are on my side with this one. It kinda reminds me of when monta Ellis was traded. The front office was boooed at games. They traded their one way bucket getter for a fundamental big in Bogut.

Back to value, after the bane trade, people suggested herro had similar value. And some thought he had more.

Personally, with his impending extension and archtype, I'm not sure he'd get you more than a player and a first from a contender. And maybe not even that. Treadmills or bottom dwellers might offer more, but that kinda makes my point.

I’ve been combing NBA depth charts relentlessly and i just don’t see a Tyler Herro trade they makes sense for us or the other team without selling really low. He’s worth more here right now. Maybe swapping out for Vassell and pick? Like you mentioned the team that also trades for him has to really like him with extension looming. Just too many factors working against a deal. We are kinda just stuck with him hoping he continues to get better because he’s too good just to let go for a low ball offer. We can win with Herro under the right build.

The only reason I advocate for trading Herro is because I think Miami would be wise to get ahead of what could become an acrimonious standoff with regards to his extension. Miami's FO obv has a much better feel for where things stand with Herro and what they'd be comfortable giving him v what Herro's camp thinks he's worth. Even if Herro doesn't demand the max, I don't see him taking less than $40M/season, and I just don't think he's worth anywhere near that kind of money.

But I agree there just isn't an obvious deal that makes sense.

[3ballbomber]

Herro doesnt have the value many think he has.

And what value is that, my fellow Wigg... I mean, Heat fan?

I'm not even sold on Herro long term and would happily dump him for an upgrade if the possibility presents itself, but the strawmans and disparagement of the guy is getting silly. I've seen people claim that people on this board think he's a top 20 player in the league, and I ask, who? What post ever said that, I'd be the first one to say he's getting overrated.

It's not that he has a group of fans who overrate him and want to build the team around him, nobody ever says this. Even the posters who defend from the hate he gets don't talk about him like a franchise cornerstone. What it really is, is a group of posters that already divorced from the idea of him on the team years ago in their heads, and can't acknowledge he played pretty well last season. Combined with one in particular who makes everything a dick measuring contest to big up his favorite player who deserves a championship because... he's his favorite player? I don't even know. And yeah I'll keep bringing it up because others do too and I have nothing better to do and its the offseason.

I'm being the devil's advocate to defend Herro, and I still think he's barely a borderline top 50 player, with a ceiling as a 2nd option on a championship contender that will have to be hidden on defense, and doesn't deserve his max unless he morphs into the next Stephen Curry next season, which I do not expect. Any Herro fans on this board want to disagree with me and tell me I'm wrong there? Or conversely, anyone think that assessment is overrating him?

See admins, this post let’s you know how toxic a certain poster is that it’s created unnecessary negativity towards players & posters. Cant have a damn proper discussion w/ out the ’dick measuring’. But ya’ll entertain the culprit for board activity. He lowers his toxicity volume once he feels the board has had enough of him & plays the victim. Only to spew the same toxic crap again. Rinse, repeat.

[MettaWorldPanda]

I think the Heat will have a younger, more energetic vibe next season, and overall they'll be a better version of last year's team.

I'm predicting a 5th or 6th seed finish.

-No more locker room drama, that underrated issue really affected last season.
-Norman Powell is now our oldest player at 32, and he's still a bucket. Could even start at SG.
-Bam finally gets a full offseason to rest and build chemistry with Ware.
-Year 2 of Bam at PF and Herro full-time PG running the show. Expect Spo to add more stuff to the playbook.

And that’s with Wiggins and Rozier already on the roster, we still have room to make moves, get younger and improve.

Herro at the PG spot could work if we had more of a point forward type. Similar to the dynamic we had with Butler. Maybe JJJ is able to grow into that role but a ball handling wing who can create and dish would seem to be the optimal archtype with two shooting guards in the backcourt with Herro as the quasi point guard. When Simon looked over to Spo and said you finally got your PG when we drafted KJ gets me to thinking these guys are not 100 sold with Herro in the PG role but playing him there out of necessity.

[marson]

I think the Heat will have a younger, more energetic vibe next season, and overall they'll be a better version of last year's team.

I'm predicting a 5th or 6th seed finish.

-No more locker room drama, that underrated issue really affected last season.
-Norman Powell is now our oldest player at 32, and he's still a bucket. Could even start at SG.
-Bam finally gets a full offseason to rest and build chemistry with Ware.
-Year 2 of Bam at PF and Herro full-time PG running the show. Expect Spo to add more stuff to the playbook.

And that’s with Wiggins and Rozier already on the roster, we still have room to make moves, get younger and improve.

Herro at the PG spot could work if we had more of a point forward type. Similar to the dynamic we had with Butler. Maybe JJJ is able to grow into that role but a ball handling wing who can create and dish would seem to be the optimal archtype with two shooting guards in the backcourt with Herro as the quasi point guard. When Simon looked over to Spo and said you finally got your PG when we drafted KJ gets me to thinking these guys are not 100 sold as Herro in the PG role but playing him there out of necessity.

KJ definitely looks like the future. If he grows into that de facto point guard role, Herro could end up elsewhere. We’ve still got four years to develop KJ, which is a big plus.

But for now, I’m just sticking to what feels like the most realistic prediction for next season.

[MettaWorldPanda]

I know some think adding someone like Marcus Smart is useless but to me adding a burly ball handler like him who can play defense next to Herro could work wonders for the lineup structure. When Dru Smith was going on that run you could see the structure of a good backcourt forming cause Dru was playing savage defense in the backcourt shadowing Herro. Powell doesn’t seem to be a true defensive guy either but he’s also a much needed bucket. Get Smart and have Mitchell off the bench to shadow those guys while KJ is brought along slowly. Maybe even Dru Smith becomes a nice surprise in a pinch allowing us to rest Smart throughout the year.

[MettaWorldPanda]

C Kelel Ware C ????????!

PF Bam Adebayo PF Nikola Jovic PF Keshad Johnson

SF Andrew Wiggins SF Jaime Jaquez Jr SF Haywood Highsmith SF Pelle Larrson SF Simone Fontechccio

SG Tyler Herro SG/SF Norman Powell

PG Marcus Smart PG Davion Mitchell PG Kasparas Jakucionis

[Beenie]

Point Herro idea not only fails to utilize him in his most optimal role as an off-ball shooter, it also jeopardizes the fluidly and execution of the half court offense.

Better off putting the ball in Mitch's or Powell's hands.

Not that any of them are good options, though.

[MettaWorldPanda]

In lineups where Herro and Powell are sharing the backcourt the front court pairing of Bam and Jovic become key facilitators with that group. The Ware and Bam front court pairing needs more of a true PG. This has me thinking if no other backcourt move is made Davion Mitchell is the starter with Herro

[Beenie]

C Kelel Ware C ????????!

PF Bam Adebayo PF Nikola Jovic PF Keshad Johnson

SF Andrew Wiggins SF Jaime Jaquez Jr SF Haywood Highsmith SF Pelle Larrson SF Simone Fontechccio

SG Tyler Herro SG/SF Norman Powell

PG Marcus Smart PG Davion Mitchell PG Kasparas Jakucionis

In retrospect, after having gotten Powell for crumbs, I wonder if Mia regrets not pushing the chips in for KD?

[Bishop45]

C Kelel Ware C ????????!

PF Bam Adebayo PF Nikola Jovic PF Keshad Johnson

SF Andrew Wiggins SF Jaime Jaquez Jr SF Haywood Highsmith SF Pelle Larrson SF Simone Fontechccio

SG Tyler Herro SG/SF Norman Powell

PG Marcus Smart PG Davion Mitchell PG Kasparas Jakucionis

Highsmith is still on this roster? Only care to get rid of Rozier/Wiggins, but it’s his time too

[MettaWorldPanda]

C Kelel Ware C ????????!

PF Bam Adebayo PF Nikola Jovic PF Keshad Johnson

SF Andrew Wiggins SF Jaime Jaquez Jr SF Haywood Highsmith SF Pelle Larrson SF Simone Fontechccio

SG Tyler Herro SG/SF Norman Powell

PG Marcus Smart PG Davion Mitchell PG Kasparas Jakucionis

Highsmith is still on this roster? Only care to get rid of Rozier/Wiggins, but it’s his time too

Yeah Highsmith seems like an odd fit with this depth chart. Certainly should not be taking away minutes from Jaquez or Jovic. Not good enough offensively to log minutes at two. Could be a sweetener in a Rozier deal or add in to Wiggins.

[marson]

C Kelel Ware C ????????!

PF Bam Adebayo PF Nikola Jovic PF Keshad Johnson

SF Andrew Wiggins SF Jaime Jaquez Jr SF Haywood Highsmith SF Pelle Larrson SF Simone Fontechccio

SG Tyler Herro SG/SF Norman Powell

PG Marcus Smart PG Davion Mitchell PG Kasparas Jakucionis

Highsmith is still on this roster? Only care to get rid of Rozier/Wiggins, but it’s his time too

Yeah Highsmith seems like an odd fit with this depth chart. Certainly should not be taking away minutes from Jaquez or Jovic. Not good enough offensively to log minutes at two. Could be a sweetener in a Rozier deal or add in to Wiggins.

Many would not be a fan of this move, but if tension is building between the Lakers' front office and LeBron James, I'd be open to a one-year reunion, if it means we're sending Rozier and Wiggins only to the Lakers in exchange for LeBron. You’d have your starting small forward and ball-handler to play aside Herro.

[Crazy-Canuck]

He’s a scorer who can’t score in the playoffs, he sucks.

Goodnight.

I actually don't think he sucks, I just don't think he has the right role.

He can be a weapon in the playoffs if used as a 6th man. Playing him when it's favorable, sit him when it's not. But that's hard to do when he gets or will get paid as much as he will. It's why the Powell deal is intriguing. If he heat ever get that alpha, the current roster basically has every archtype to build a contender.

Replace herro with a similar range pg and then add it to this current roster without any changes, it's contending in the East.

I understand you haven't been a Heat fan for that long, but this isn't the Tyler of a few years ago who had to be a 6th man to have a positive impact. While I agree defensively you might still prefer to sit him at times depending on certain matchups or who you have playing with him, overall he was a very positive impact player last season, and I think some either feel it was a fluke that didn't hold in the playoffs or that he's still the same player he was in years prior.

I'm willing to ignore the playoff performance because the entire team massively collectively **** the bed there, though he does still have to prove it in a scenario where there is a supporting cast that matters. But writing him off as this 6th man type that has to be on a leash to have any positive impact ignores all of his growth last season, or again, just writes it off as a fluke. 36th in the league in BPM, 19th in VORP, these are not numbers of a 6th man that can't be trusted. Unless you're saying he's more like a Manu Ginobili type, but I'm definitely not getting that impression from your posts here.

This is why I've been trying to separate player from archtype.

Manu was a 6th man, not because of his archtype, he would have been a starting sg regardless.

My reference was to say herro is a scoring guard with limited defense. I think it's safe to say we can all agree on this? No matter how great this archtype is, it doesnt translate to championships. That's the point i am trying to make, not about how good or bad herro is. That's what I'm pushing against.

Now if he makes an unheard of leap and becomes the orchestrator of this offense (like a haliburton, trae, or ja) or becomes a good defender (not great) then all bets are off. If he can run an offense and get his own bucket, then that is absolutely worth building around.

[Rapaz]

Many would not be a fan of this move, but if tension is building between the Lakers' front office and LeBron James, I'd be open to a one-year reunion, if it means we're sending Rozier and Wiggins only to the Lakers in exchange for LeBron. You’d have your starting small forward and ball-handler to play aside Herro.

[Wiltside]

In lineups where Herro and Powell are sharing the backcourt the front court pairing of Bam and Jovic become key facilitators with that group. The Ware and Bam front court pairing needs more of a true PG. This has me thinking if no other backcourt move is made Davion Mitchell is the starter with Herro

It's gonna be Point Jovic szn with that group for sure.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

I actually don't think he sucks, I just don't think he has the right role.

He can be a weapon in the playoffs if used as a 6th man. Playing him when it's favorable, sit him when it's not. But that's hard to do when he gets or will get paid as much as he will. It's why the Powell deal is intriguing. If he heat ever get that alpha, the current roster basically has every archtype to build a contender.

Replace herro with a similar range pg and then add it to this current roster without any changes, it's contending in the East.

I understand you haven't been a Heat fan for that long, but this isn't the Tyler of a few years ago who had to be a 6th man to have a positive impact. While I agree defensively you might still prefer to sit him at times depending on certain matchups or who you have playing with him, overall he was a very positive impact player last season, and I think some either feel it was a fluke that didn't hold in the playoffs or that he's still the same player he was in years prior.

I'm willing to ignore the playoff performance because the entire team massively collectively **** the bed there, though he does still have to prove it in a scenario where there is a supporting cast that matters. But writing him off as this 6th man type that has to be on a leash to have any positive impact ignores all of his growth last season, or again, just writes it off as a fluke. 36th in the league in BPM, 19th in VORP, these are not numbers of a 6th man that can't be trusted. Unless you're saying he's more like a Manu Ginobili type, but I'm definitely not getting that impression from your posts here.

This is why I've been trying to separate player from archtype.

Manu was a 6th man, not because of his archtype, he would have been a starting sg regardless.

My reference was to say herro is a scoring guard with limited defense. I think it's safe to say we can all agree on this? No matter how great this archtype is, it doesnt translate to championships. That's the point i am trying to make, not about how good or bad herro is. That's what I'm pushing against.

Now if he makes an unheard of leap and becomes the orchestrator of this offense (like a haliburton, trae, or ja) or becomes a good defender (not great) then all bets are off. If he can run an offense and get his own bucket, then that is absolutely worth building around.

10 years ago, I'd probably agree with you. I think in today's league, because of how much more important shooting is, I think there's more room for a player like Herro.

I also think last season he did a bit to break that archetype of "just a scoring guard". Its obviously still his calling card, but he successfully ran the offense last year, unless you want to claim that was Davion Mitchell or Alec Burks or something. Now he obviously wasn't great at it, its not like we had a top 10 offense, but there was definite growth. AST% up by around 6% from his career average, TOV% roughly the same despite more ball handling and creation duties, he wasn't just a scorer last year.

More importantly though, there's a new archetype that you could debate whether it exists for one player or its a league wide thing, and that's cold blooded 3-point sniper. Obviously Curry is the model for this, but you have guys like Lillard who play a similar brand of ball and have had success doing it, and even stars with better dribble drive capabilities like Edwards and Mitchell have found success as volume 3-point shooters. And it's a skill that Tyler is definitely elite at, when you combine all the different aspects of shooting (off the dribble, catch and shoot, DHO, etc) there isn't any aspect he's weak in there.

I'm not sure that's enough to say its a new archetype that matters, it may just be Curry excelling above the field. But this stuff is fluid. For example, the traditional power forward was dead for a while, and while it might be making a comeback, you're still expected to do a lot more than power forwards in the 90's were. Also archetype or not, production is production, and Herro did produce last season and make the team noticeably better when he was on the floor. If it turns out to be a fluke I'll lead the bandwagon in getting him out of town, my allegiance is to the Heat not any player. I'm just not prepared to write him off when he was clearly at worst our 2nd best player last season, and everyone on the roster was terrible against Cleveland.