Shams: Kings Trade Jonas Valunciunas to the Nuggets for Dario Saric; *UPDATE* - Trade is Now Official

[durden_tyler]

This is a very curious thread— since it just involves a scrub who really won’t move the needle for an NBA team


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[zero rings]

Val isn't really a meaningful player anymore. If I were Denver I would let him go and get the MLE.

You'd probably get a very unmotivated guy if you forced the guy to play when he clearly wants to leave and be close to his family

This would be great if Val had informed Denver he wanted to leave BEFORE the trade.

What use is the cap space if there aren't any good players left to sign? It's pretty much Horford or bust at this point, and it looks like he's headed to the Warriors.

[sackings916]

This is a very curious thread— since it just involves a scrub who really won’t move the needle for an NBA team


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Exactly. I can’t figure out how or why this thread is 30 pages. He’s a fringe 3rd big/4th big at this point in his career.

[MTJazzv3]

[/quote] A bit surprising too because he was still pretty good on the cavs and viewed as an asset when he retired in the NBA. Strange how he aged that quickly.

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Enes Kanter went #3 to Utah and JV #5 to Toronto in the 2011 draft. There were raging debates on the Jazz boards on which one would have a better career. JV was stashed in Lithuania for a year while Enes hit the hyper-dysfunctional Ty Corbin as coach years. Since Enes went, say, unfocused after landing his bag, its clear that JV was the better NBA player in total and can still help the Nuggets. Enes Kanter (Freedom) - where are you now, bro?

[Wallace_Wallace]

So you still haven’t provided me any examples. When a player is in contract, what loophole/power move does an NBA team (or any team) uses to get that player outright and his original team gets no compensation? If so, what players were able to do so?

And, once again, you're proving that you didn't quite understand my point. I will state my point once again:

Not every player in Europe (or elsewhere in the world) has an NBA out clause.

Here. That's my point. That's what I said. Do we agree on that or not?

The drafting part sounds irrelevant since Jonas is way beyond that. But if the NBA teams draft players against their will, do they not have freedom to stay in Europe (IE Fran Vazquez-Orlando)? Those players are not forced to report to the NBA correct? So essentially, Orlando in that situation, wasted a lottery pick.

No, they aren't forced to report to the NBA. They can stay in Europe if they want. But if they ever want to go to the NBA then they have to go to the team that picked them against their will.

So what if there’s no NBA clause, you don’t think there’s any other language that speaks about leaving before the contract expires? Or are you living in this fantasy land? The NBA (or any league) has to approach the said team and ask “I want player x, what’s the requirement?” If the conditions are too high, then they wait until the contract expires or the buyout amount is reduced as the contract is getting closer to the end.

If that wasn’t the case, feel free to give me examples, like I asked the previous 2 times. I gave you 3 in basketball, 1 in soccer.

You other little rant, isn’t that the point of the NBA draft? Did you missed the whole Ace Bailey situation two weeks ago? Maybe you’re in the NFL, did you missed the whole Sheduer Sanders draft slid fiasco? Go back and review the draft thread and see who was on the NBA/Utah’s side and who was on Bailey’s. Without the draft, you think guys like Myles Turner, Andrew Nembhard and Ben Mathurin wanted to play in Indiana? Or Jalen William and Chet Holmgren want to go to OKC?

[Optms]

This is a very curious thread— since it just involves a scrub who really won’t move the needle for an NBA team


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Exactly. I can’t figure out how or why this thread is 30 pages. He’s a fringe 3rd big/4th big at this point in his career.

Here is a quick summary so you understand:

First 15 pages: Nuggets are back, bby. cHaMpIonChiP thymE

Next 10 pages: why Jonas left 101. He was gonna leave the entire time. Cause Trump. US bad. Denver nice.

Last 5 pages: Jonas is scrubbbbbb

[Nuntius]

So you still haven’t provided me any examples. When a player is in contract, what loophole/power move does an NBA team (or any team) uses to get that player outright and his original team gets no compensation? If so, what players were able to do so?

And, once again, you're proving that you didn't quite understand my point. I will state my point once again:

Not every player in Europe (or elsewhere in the world) has an NBA out clause.

Here. That's my point. That's what I said. Do we agree on that or not?

The drafting part sounds irrelevant since Jonas is way beyond that. But if the NBA teams draft players against their will, do they not have freedom to stay in Europe (IE Fran Vazquez-Orlando)? Those players are not forced to report to the NBA correct? So essentially, Orlando in that situation, wasted a lottery pick.

No, they aren't forced to report to the NBA. They can stay in Europe if they want. But if they ever want to go to the NBA then they have to go to the team that picked them against their will.

So what if there’s no NBA clause, you don’t think there’s any other language that speaks about leaving before the contract expires? Or are you living in this fantasy land? The NBA (or any league) has to approach the said team and ask “I want player x, what’s the requirement?” If the conditions are too high, then they wait until the contract expires or the buyout amount is reduced as the contract is getting closer to the end.

Alright, you're still missing the point here so let's rewind this discussion a bit.

Here's the initial point you made that prompted my response:

Page 28, post #544:

European players have an NBA out clause set at X dollars depending on how many years are left.

The above is in page 28, post #544.

And here's my response:

European players have an NBA out clause set at X dollars depending on how many years are left.

Nope. Not all of them. It depends on the contract they have signed. Some of them have an NBA out clause while others don't have such a clause.

The above is in page page 29, post #563.

This is the disagreement. You posited that all players in Europe have an NBA out clause and I said that this is not the case. This is untrue. Not every player in Europe (or elsewhere) has an NBA out clause.

If that wasn’t the case, feel free to give me examples, like I asked the previous 2 times. I gave you 3 in basketball, 1 in soccer.

Sure. Kendrick Nunn's current contract is a prime example.

You other little rant, isn’t that the point of the NBA draft? Did you missed the whole Ace Bailey situation two weeks ago? Maybe you’re in the NFL, did you missed the whole Sheduer Sanders draft slid fiasco? Go back and review the draft thread and see who was on the NBA/Utah’s side and who was on Bailey’s.

I have no knowledge on the NFL situation so I cannot comment on that. But as far as the Ace Bailey situation is concerned, Bailey did declare for the draft. Mirotic12 was talking about players who never declared for the NBA draft and still got drafted so the two situations aren't really similar.

[Wallace_Wallace]

And, once again, you're proving that you didn't quite understand my point. I will state my point once again:

Not every player in Europe (or elsewhere in the world) has an NBA out clause.

Here. That's my point. That's what I said. Do we agree on that or not?



No, they aren't forced to report to the NBA. They can stay in Europe if they want. But if they ever want to go to the NBA then they have to go to the team that picked them against their will.

So what if there’s no NBA clause, you don’t think there’s any other language that speaks about leaving before the contract expires? Or are you living in this fantasy land? The NBA (or any league) has to approach the said team and ask “I want player x, what’s the requirement?” If the conditions are too high, then they wait until the contract expires or the buyout amount is reduced as the contract is getting closer to the end.

Alright, you're still missing the point here so let's rewind this discussion a bit.

Here's the initial point you made that prompted my response:

Page 28, post #544:

European players have an NBA out clause set at X dollars depending on how many years are left.

The above is in page 28, post #544.

And here's my response:

European players have an NBA out clause set at X dollars depending on how many years are left.

Nope. Not all of them. It depends on the contract they have signed. Some of them have an NBA out clause while others don't have such a clause.

The above is in page page 29, post #563.

This is the disagreement. You posited that all players in Europe have an NBA out clause and I said that this is not the case. This is untrue. Not every player in Europe (or elsewhere) has an NBA out clause.

If that wasn’t the case, feel free to give me examples, like I asked the previous 2 times. I gave you 3 in basketball, 1 in soccer.

Sure. Kendrick Nunn's current contract is a prime example.

You other little rant, isn’t that the point of the NBA draft? Did you missed the whole Ace Bailey situation two weeks ago? Maybe you’re in the NFL, did you missed the whole Sheduer Sanders draft slid fiasco? Go back and review the draft thread and see who was on the NBA/Utah’s side and who was on Bailey’s.

I have no knowledge on the NFL situation so I cannot comment on that. But as far as the Ace Bailey situation is concerned, Bailey did declare for the draft. Mirotic12 was talking about players who never declared for the NBA draft and still got drafted so the two situations aren't really similar.

Now, even if there’s no NBA out clause for all players, what is the language to prevent other teams (NBA or other foreign teams) to outright sign the players while they’re in contract? We are still going back and forth regarding buyout/transfer fees and NBA out clauses. Bottom line is still a fee to pay if the players still in contract. Jonas Valenciunas is still in contract, therefore he needs to have a buyout, either he and/or his new team pays the amount.

The Kendrick Nunn situation you listed sounds like another wrongdoing by the same team (not the NBA screwing over an European team). Unless I’m reading it wrong, he exercised his player option and received around 5 million that season, then Panathinaikos just signed him without any resistance from Washington. Unless Washington is planning on releasing him, doesn’t that sound like malpractice to you? Assuming I am reading it incorrectly, he played out his NBA contract, and then sign with Panathinaikos; in that case, there’s no foul play, no one got screwed so I’m fine with your example. If an NBA wants to sign Kendrick Nunn and there’s no NBA out clause, then I’m sure the buyout would be hefty.

Regarding the draft, if all players go through the same process, what makes the foreign prospects more special? I’m sure everyone wants to be a free agent right off the bat. Unless they want to go the Austin Reaves route (could be a strategy for prospects in the future), but if an European player wants to play for the NBA then unfortunately that is the process.

[Nuntius]

Now, even if there’s no NBA out clause for all players,

Glad that we finally agree that not every player outside of the US has an NBA out clause.

what is the language to prevent other teams (NBA or other foreign teams) to outright sign the players while they’re in contract? We are still going back and forth regarding buyout/transfer fees and NBA out clauses. Bottom line is still a fee to pay if the players still in contract. Jonas Valenciunas is still in contract, therefore he needs to have a buyout, either he and/or his new team pays the amount.

Which is exactly what Valanciunas is trying to do. He's trying to buy out his contract and Denver isn't willing to agree to any kind of buyout because they feel slighted by the miscommunication explained in the tweets that HotRocks34 has posted.

The Kendrick Nunn situation you listed sounds like another wrongdoing by the same team (not the NBA screwing over an European team). Nunn exercised his player option and received around 5 million that season, then Panathinaikos just signed him without any resistance from Washington. Unless Washington is planning on releasing him, doesn’t that sound like malpractice to you? If Washington wasn’t a bottom feeder, and Nunn plays an integral role, then absolutely there should be a situation similar to now.

What? Nunn signed a two-year deal with the Lakers on August of 2021. The Wizards traded for him on January of 2023. Nunn's contract expired at the end of the 2023 season. Nunn signed with Panathinaikos on October of 2023.

Where exactly is the wrongdoing here?

Seriously, why are you making me defend a team I hate? This sucks

Regarding the draft, if all players go through the same process, what makes the foreign prospects more special? I’m sure everyone wants to be a free agent right off the bat. Unless they want to go the Austin Reaves route (could be a strategy for prospects in the future), but if an European player wants to play for the NBA then unfortunately that is the process.

Because the "automatically eligible at 22 even if they haven't declared for the NBA draft" only applies to international players.

[Wallace_Wallace]

Now, even if there’s no NBA out clause for all players,

Glad that we finally agree that not every player outside of the US has an NBA out clause.

what is the language to prevent other teams (NBA or other foreign teams) to outright sign the players while they’re in contract? We are still going back and forth regarding buyout/transfer fees and NBA out clauses. Bottom line is still a fee to pay if the players still in contract. Jonas Valenciunas is still in contract, therefore he needs to have a buyout, either he and/or his new team pays the amount.

Which is exactly what Valanciunas is trying to do. He's trying to buy out his contract and Denver isn't willing to agree to any kind of buyout because they feel slighted by the miscommunication explained in the tweets that HotRocks34 has posted.

The Kendrick Nunn situation you listed sounds like another wrongdoing by the same team (not the NBA screwing over an European team). Nunn exercised his player option and received around 5 million that season, then Panathinaikos just signed him without any resistance from Washington. Unless Washington is planning on releasing him, doesn’t that sound like malpractice to you? If Washington wasn’t a bottom feeder, and Nunn plays an integral role, then absolutely there should be a situation similar to now.

What? Nunn signed a two-year deal with the Lakers on August of 2021. The Wizards traded for him on January of 2023. Nunn's contract expired at the end of the 2023 season. Nunn signed with Panathinaikos on October of 2023.

Where exactly is the wrongdoing here?

Seriously, why are you making me defend a team I hate? This sucks

Regarding the draft, if all players go through the same process, what makes the foreign prospects more special? I’m sure everyone wants to be a free agent right off the bat. Unless they want to go the Austin Reaves route (could be a strategy for prospects in the future), but if an European player wants to play for the NBA then unfortunately that is the process.

Because the "automatically eligible at 22 even if they haven't declared for the NBA draft" only applies to international players.

Yup, I admit I researched the wrong topic regarding the Kendrick Nunn situation (thought you were referring to his time period transitioning from the NBA to Europe). If the NBA does want to acquire Kendrick Nunn from Greece, without an out clause, I’m sure the transfer fee would be hefty and the teams (plus the player) have to agree to an amount that seem fitting to all sides. If Panathinaikos doesn’t want to even entertain the idea, then unfortunately the NBA would have to wait until his contract expires.

Same with Denver, if they don’t want to entertain the idea of a buyout, then it is what it is. Be a professional and show up to work.

The NBA only contribute 750k to a buyout with the rest paid by the players in a buyout situation (if the team is willing to negotiate), the NBA teams cannot sign foreign players without compensation to the original team. This was one of the premises as well, NBA overpowers the euro leagues and often the team is left without compensation. This sounds wrong on surface, but the NBA, the player and the foreign team fulfill the buyout conditions every time.

[remiga007]

This is a very curious thread— since it just involves a scrub who really won’t move the needle for an NBA team


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Exactly. I can’t figure out how or why this thread is 30 pages. He’s a fringe 3rd big/4th big at this point in his career.

1. A true contender Nuggets get (or dont) good backup for Jokic which they were unable to do in half a decade. Thats huge, especially as they almost have no options now beside Val; thats why they dont want to let him go now;
2. JV is not 4th big at this point of his career. His PER numbers this last season were really close to his best years, with way improved passing and understanding of playing defence. Yeah he is slower but he has always been slowest guy on the court.
3. The situation with Panathinaikos is unique and for many much more interesting than another aging ex superstar trade or extensions to Max players which were gonna happen anyway.

Youre welcome.

[LuDux1]

This is a very curious thread— since it just involves a scrub who really won’t move the needle for an NBA team


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Exactly. I can’t figure out how or why this thread is 30 pages. He’s a fringe 3rd big/4th big at this point in his career.

1. A true contender Nuggets get (or dont) good backup for Jokic which they were unable to do in half a decade. Thats huge, especially as they almost have no options now beside Val; thats why they dont want to let him go now;
2. JV is not 4th big at this point of his career. His PER numbers this last season were really close to his best years, with way improved passing and understanding of playing defence. Yeah he is slower but he has always been slowest guy on the court.
3. The situation with Panathinaikos is unique and for many much more interesting than another aging ex superstar trade or extensions to Max players which were gonna happen anyway.

Youre welcome.

Only after his first NBA season, then he bulked up, just as bulked up centers were getting out of style

nbadraft.net (2009/5/1): "Very fluid athlete … Runs the court well for a center … Good quickness and solid explosiveness/leaping ability"

[KGtabake]

#FreeJonas

[Alatan]

Its unproffesional from JV to seek or entertain cotract offers while he is still under the current contract. Those that defend it by claiming that he is somehow slighted by being traded ofthen need to understand that being traded is part of the job of witch possibility the players were previously informed and witch they accepted by signing the contract. Sure, things in life can change and the contract obligations can become unpredictably hard or imposible but then the player and the team need to work out a solution first. As there are rules that protect the players in case of injuries, bad performance etc, there are rules that protect the team as well. Nowhere in the world are you alowed to break a long term conteact without making it up to other party for doing so.

Another aspect of this is that the NBA doesnt want to look like a weak entity that lets their players break the rules at their whims for their personal gain at the NBAs cost. If you let it slide once, uou open the flood gates to all kinds of problems.

That being said i really dont care for JV as a player. Id much rather have the Nuggets get Horford for the same money if he is willing to come. Further more id hate having a disgruntled JV in the locker room possibly sabotaging the chemistry and half assing it on the court.

If i was in charge id make him issue a public appology for going behind their backs while under contracts and mutually break the contract whithout bring payed or counting for the cap so he can go on his marry way.

The pivot to Horford or a stop gap C and possibly experimenting with Ben Simmons as a small ball C/PF.

[Exp0sed]

He doesn't want to play in the US anymore, period. It has nothing to do with Denver in particular.

So he suddenly decides this immediately after the trade? What a coincidence, huh.

Based on everything we've read so far, he decided that the moment he was offered a contract by a team outside the US.

I will agree with the others that said that your trolling is pretty poor.

The two can both be true

maybe he was leaning towards going back to Europe even before the trade but when he was traded, he especially didn't wanna go to Denver (for whichever reason)?

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[mkot]

Jeff Schwartz is a powerful agent in the Nuggets organization, he represents half the Nuggets roster including Jokić and Murray so I assume the relationship is good. Hopefully it get resolved. Ideally Valunciunas side pays the Nuggets for the buyout, this free up the full MLE to go after Horford which in my opinions is the better option for their backup C

What this really cost is the Nuggets 3 days in FA, which sucks.

[Exp0sed]

This is a very curious thread— since it just involves a scrub who really won’t move the needle for an NBA team


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Val isn't a scrub, get real

and yes, in a vacuum he def doesn't move the needle but for Denver - he does

A reminder that this is a team that took the juggernaut OKC to 7 games with their second option playing horrendously, all with a rookie HC who got the gig a week before the playoffs

They don't need much to get over the hump and backup C has been for years, their most mind-boggling and glaring hole



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[mkot]

A reminder that this is a team that took the juggernaut OKC to 7 games with their second option playing horrendously, all with a rookie HC who got the gig a week before the playoffs

They don't need much to get over the hump and backup C has been for years, their most mind-boggling and glaring hole



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Don't want to derail this thread but to me, it's Jokić underperformed in Game 4 & 5 ultimately cost them the series. His teammates played good enough in game 4 & 5, they had the lead in the 4th but Jokić just didn't deliver. Murray was good, not great, but considered the defense allowed I think he held his own. Go compare his numbers to all the guards played in the playoff or specifically against OKC, he did okay. Gordon was amazing the whole series, MPJ was injured and literally just stood there as a spacer, they still face guarded him so he wasn't completely useless on offense.

It's kinda crazy to say Jokić didn't play well when he put up 28/14/6, probably the best individual stats against the OKC defense. It speaks for his greatness.

[nomansland]

This is a very curious thread— since it just involves a scrub who really won’t move the needle for an NBA team


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Exactly. I can’t figure out how or why this thread is 30 pages. He’s a fringe 3rd big/4th big at this point in his career.

1. A true contender Nuggets get (or dont) good backup for Jokic which they were unable to do in half a decade. Thats huge, especially as they almost have no options now beside Val; thats why they dont want to let him go now;
2. JV is not 4th big at this point of his career. His PER numbers this last season were really close to his best years, with way improved passing and understanding of playing defence. Yeah he is slower but he has always been slowest guy on the court.
3. The situation with Panathinaikos is unique and for many much more interesting than another aging ex superstar trade or extensions to Max players which were gonna happen anyway.

Youre welcome.

Good reasons.

Beyond that, this has interesting implications for how the NBA and international leagues interact in the future. You can bet that Adam Silver and the NBA governors are watching how this plays out with keen interest.

[Wallace_Wallace]

Exactly. I can’t figure out how or why this thread is 30 pages. He’s a fringe 3rd big/4th big at this point in his career.

1. A true contender Nuggets get (or dont) good backup for Jokic which they were unable to do in half a decade. Thats huge, especially as they almost have no options now beside Val; thats why they dont want to let him go now;
2. JV is not 4th big at this point of his career. His PER numbers this last season were really close to his best years, with way improved passing and understanding of playing defence. Yeah he is slower but he has always been slowest guy on the court.
3. The situation with Panathinaikos is unique and for many much more interesting than another aging ex superstar trade or extensions to Max players which were gonna happen anyway.

Youre welcome.

Good reasons.

Beyond that, this has interesting implications for how the NBA and international leagues interact in the future. You can bet that Adam Silver and the NBA governors are watching how this plays out with keen interest.

In the next CBA, they could raise the max buyout limit an NBA team can contribute; this is a rule the owners nor the players have much care. The current amount is 750k, I think the NBA wouldn't mind raising it to 2-3 million (or even more since now the cap is so ridiculously high). This change will have a seismic impact in foreign leagues:
1. Players themselves don't have to cough up as much money in buyout situation, thus making above average to top players wanting to try their luck in the NBA.
2. Promote player movement in foreign leagues.
3. Players have more say in their contracts. It may enable them to get pay more, thus making the buyout/transfer fees higher.

If Euroleagues, specifically Panathinaikos, wants to pull this, I look for NBA to counter. Ultimately, I think more players from foreign countries want to play in the NBA than the other way around. So raising the limit will attract more foreign talents into the league.