The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens!

[BobbieL]

is the waive/stretch confirmed then? why, again?

Nothing confirmed yet

and per DavidNash IVPointPlay on twitter - they have until 8/29 to say whether they will stretch at all 5 years or push it off a year and stretch 3 years next year or I guess not stretch at all.

[Saberestar]

Shams:

Free agent F Isaiah Livers will sign a two-way NBA contract with the Phoenix Suns, Andy Shiffman and Mark Bartelstein of @PrioritySports tell ESPN. Livers missed all of last season due to hip surgery but has made a full recovery and now restarts career for his fourth NBA season.

[BobbieL]

Shams:

Free agent F Isaiah Livers will sign a two-way NBA contract with the Phoenix Suns, Andy Shiffman and Mark Bartelstein of @PrioritySports tell ESPN. Livers missed all of last season due to hip surgery but has made a full recovery and now restarts career for his fourth NBA season.

Another Bartlestein client unless there is another agent with the last name Bartlestein that isn't related to Josh B.

[dremill24]

Shams:

Free agent F Isaiah Livers will sign a two-way NBA contract with the Phoenix Suns, Andy Shiffman and Mark Bartelstein of @PrioritySports tell ESPN. Livers missed all of last season due to hip surgery but has made a full recovery and now restarts career for his fourth NBA season.

Another Bartlestein client unless there is another agent with the last name Bartlestein that isn't related to Josh B.

Michigan born & bred

[SkyBill40]

The continued push to waive and stretch Beal is going to really hurt us. There should have been a better way in it so as to just get out of his last two years, be it playing him sparingly off the bench or just telling him to stay home. But stretching him just to send him away while still paying for the bulk of his salary for FIVE YEARS and play against us is stupid.

I'll die on this hill.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

It's too bad that we didn't have the patience or foresight to actually hold on and not make another shortsighted move that's not going to change our trajectory anyways.

Making this move just to get the MLE, and then carrying 19-22 million in dead cap on our books for the next half decade, essentially taking us out of any big free agent acquisitions.

I think it gets them out of the position where they have the draft pick go to the end of the R1 in 2032.

So between Ishbia saving a lot of money and the idea they can combine salaries -- which is why this is being done. But yes, to spend 19m just to sign a guy for 5.3m -- thats not good roster building.

I get the short term rewards are a consideration. But if the pick is only going to be leveraged in another trade, then I don't really care that it's frozen because at least then he couldn't/ wouldn't be able to trade it after Booker is likely gone and we're into our legitimate rebuild.

As to whether or not this actually becomes a responsible decision, it'll drastically hinge on the outcome of what they're able to turn Allen/ O'neale/ Richards, etc into and the assets that we might get back??

But to carry over 22.8 million in dead cap (cumulatively between Beal, Little, And Liddle over the next half decade isn't very encouraging either when you consider the imminent salary increases too, Booker's 8% increases, Mark Williams (necessary extension), rookie scale increases, and Allen's increase as well if he's not traded.

All cumulatively could easily put us back over the 2nd apron yet again, depending upon what moves are made and the salary coming back?? I would've much rather bit the bullet and held onto Beal for another season or two to review the situation variance over time.

And then be set up to be major players in 27 free agency. And more importantly, NOT BE HAMSTRUNG at all with paying for a player not even on our team for the next 5 yrs.


Ultimately, this will come down to our competitive outcome trajectory over the next 5 yrs as a result of this decision. And whether or not we've made it back to a playoff team quicker by doing this move instead of focusing on 27 free agency??

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

It's too bad that we didn't have the patience or foresight to actually hold on and not make another shortsighted move that's not going to change our trajectory anyways.

Making this move just to get the MLE, and then carrying 19-22 million in dead cap on our books for the next half decade, essentially taking us out of any big free agent acquisitions.

Book can still be traded.

Yeah, I guess anything is possible?? But really, who's going to want him at 31 to 32 yrs old and around $70+ million on his contract. How much trade value would he even likely have by then.

[Sunsdeuce]

Read on Twitter

It's too bad that we didn't have the patience or foresight to actually hold on and not make another shortsighted move that's not going to change our trajectory anyways.

Making this move just to get the MLE, and then carrying 19-22 million in dead cap on our books for the next half decade, essentially taking us out of any big free agent acquisitions.

Book can still be traded.

Yeah, I guess anything is possible?? But really, who's going to want him at 31 to 32 yrs old and around $70+ million on his contract. How much trade value would he even likely have by then.

the truth is he’s going to have the same value as Beal has at this moment. Paying Booker $75 million a year over 30 years old is poor planning and a total lack of due diligence. Not only restricts the roster but also restricts his trade value.

[Ghost of Kleine]

The continued push to waive and stretch Beal is going to really hurt us. There should have been a better way in it so as to just get out of his last two years, be it playing him sparingly off the bench or just telling him to stay home. But stretching him just to send him away while still paying for the bulk of his salary for FIVE YEARS and play against us is stupid.

I'll die on this hill.

I'll gladly be your neighbor on this hill man!

[King4Day]

Read on Twitter

It's too bad that we didn't have the patience or foresight to actually hold on and not make another shortsighted move that's not going to change our trajectory anyways.

Making this move just to get the MLE, and then carrying 19-22 million in dead cap on our books for the next half decade, essentially taking us out of any big free agent acquisitions.

Jokic, Luka, Giannis will not make it to free agency. Any hope we could have had at even trading for them expired when we traded for KD.

Mitchell, Davis, Young will be traded before hitting free agency and likely extended by the new team. These would be our best hope, but even then, we have Booker, so we don't need Mitchell. We don't need a mid-30's Davis when we have 2 young centers already who have promise. Trae? Why?

Curry, Harden, Leonard, Butler, KAT, Kyrie, LaVine....why would we want any of them on our team when they'll all be that much closer to 40? Curry is retiring a Warrior unless he asks out.

I had seen this post by Evan and just felt it was noise. Anyone could say these guys have a chance to be Free Agents then.
Realistically, maybe a quarter of them even make it there. We need to focus on now.

[KdoubleDees23]

Read on Twitter

It's too bad that we didn't have the patience or foresight to actually hold on and not make another shortsighted move that's not going to change our trajectory anyways.

Making this move just to get the MLE, and then carrying 19-22 million in dead cap on our books for the next half decade, essentially taking us out of any big free agent acquisitions.

Book can still be traded.

Yeah, I guess anything is possible?? But really, who's going to want him at 31 to 32 yrs old and around $70+ million on his contract. How much trade value would he even likely have by then.

TBH

I would take Booker over all of the ones below minus the different colored ones in 2027. Not going to lie, I want to see Jokic and Doncic together.

Nikola Jokic
Luka Doncic
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Donovan Mitchell
Anthony Davis
Trae Young
Stephen Curry
James Harden
Kawhi Leonard
Jimmy Butler
Karl-Anthony Towns
Kyrie Irving
Zach LaVine

[BobbieL]

The continued push to waive and stretch Beal is going to really hurt us. There should have been a better way in it so as to just get out of his last two years, be it playing him sparingly off the bench or just telling him to stay home. But stretching him just to send him away while still paying for the bulk of his salary for FIVE YEARS and play against us is stupid.

I'll die on this hill.

I saw a chart that showed the Suns cap - they could have got between the first and second aprons by
1) trading for Durant and having those 5 seconds
2) not trading for Williams
3) releasing Micic, Martin and Richards

4) asking Beal if he would take a pay cut each year equivalent to the TPMLE so 6m per year

5) possibly using draft capital to trade either O'Neale or Allen to take back less

the chose to trade for Williams first so that kind of put them behind the 8 ball. like for me, my goals would have been to use draft capital - especially some of those seconds to see if you can move Royce or Allen
Just run it out with Beal

[SkyBill40]

The continued push to waive and stretch Beal is going to really hurt us. There should have been a better way in it so as to just get out of his last two years, be it playing him sparingly off the bench or just telling him to stay home. But stretching him just to send him away while still paying for the bulk of his salary for FIVE YEARS and play against us is stupid.

I'll die on this hill.

I saw a chart that showed the Suns cap - they could have got between the first and second aprons by
1) trading for Durant and having those 5 seconds
2) not trading for Williams
3) releasing Micic, Martin and Richards

4) asking Beal if he would take a pay cut each year equivalent to the TPMLE so 6m per year

5) possibly using draft capital to trade either O'Neale or Allen to take back less

the chose to trade for Williams first

Yeah. Trading for an injury prone dude was as much a mistake as trading for Durant or Beal. I hope there's a redemption arc in there somewhere, but I'm just not buying it. I hope like hell I'm wrong.

Releasing Micic was a given as was letting Martin go; not guaranteeing Richards wasn't as smart a move as they are believing it to be and I still think he could be moved at some point. He's a luxury at this point.

As for Beal et al, I'm not sure as to how this is going to play out. I would rather have Beal sit at home for two seasons or only play as needed in hopes he changes his mind about a trade than to do this stretch crap. And I'm fine on moving from O'Neale but less so on Allen. We need depth and shooting which he provides. O'Neale does as well, but if we can get a decent PG for him... we have to try.

[King4Day]

Thinking about it further, I see the stretch/waive a couple of ways.

1. This 'window' lasts as long as Booker is here. If we don't stretch Beal, it automatically eliminates 2 of the 5 years' worth of team building/developing. That's also assuming we keep Booker for the duration of his current contract.
2. Having this flexibility will let us trade away, and acquire, players who can grow with this team. Instead of just cutting him after buying him out for two years and allowing us to only get vet min guys and struggling to re-sign our current guys to bigger deals.

It helps that the cap will go up each year making it a bit less painful.
And Ishbia is OK with the tax, so it technically doesn't matter right now having an extra 20mil per on top of things should we go over the cap again.

The short of it is, if we aren't stretching and waiving Beal, then we may as well have traded Booker too, which we know the FO won't do. So do the stretch, try giving this one more go, but the right way. If it doesn't work, we can blow it up as we get closer to the 2031 season and lack of pick control.

[King4Day]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/rmYiQbWrP5

[Stein] In Addition to potential Beal buyout talks intensifying. The Suns have also engaged teams regarding trading Richards, O'Neale, and Allen

Why would they need to engage teams on trading Richards? They could have released him for nothing. Did they pick up his option without a plan?

He's too valuable to just release. At min, we can get cap space and a 2nd. He's a top backup in the league IMO

[BobbieL]

The continued push to waive and stretch Beal is going to really hurt us. There should have been a better way in it so as to just get out of his last two years, be it playing him sparingly off the bench or just telling him to stay home. But stretching him just to send him away while still paying for the bulk of his salary for FIVE YEARS and play against us is stupid.

I'll die on this hill.

I saw a chart that showed the Suns cap - they could have got between the first and second aprons by
1) trading for Durant and having those 5 seconds
2) not trading for Williams
3) releasing Micic, Martin and Richards

4) asking Beal if he would take a pay cut each year equivalent to the TPMLE so 6m per year

5) possibly using draft capital to trade either O'Neale or Allen to take back less

the chose to trade for Williams first

Yeah. Trading for an injury prone dude was as much a mistake as trading for Durant or Beal. I hope there's a redemption arc in there somewhere, but I'm just not buying it. I hope like hell I'm wrong.

Releasing Micic was a given as was letting Martin go; not guaranteeing Richards wasn't as smart a move as they are believing it to be and I still think he could be moved at some point. He's a luxury at this point.

As for Beal et al, I'm not sure as to how this is going to play out. I would rather have Beal sit at home for two seasons or only play as needed in hopes he changes his mind about a trade than to do this stretch crap. And I'm fine on moving from O'Neale but less so on Allen. We need depth and shooting which he provides. O'Neale does as well, but if we can get a decent PG for him... we have to try.

For me, it all depends on priorities. Mine was not doing the Beal S&W and do everything I can to get cap space in 2027 as it gives you the ability to do sign free agents, take on contracts for draft capital etc.

And yes, the team would bottom out - but at the same time -35 wins also isn't getting you to the playoffs.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I just hope they are upfront that stretching Beal is about getting out of the repeater lux tax and saving $100mil+ in cash.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I saw a chart that showed the Suns cap - they could have got between the first and second aprons by
1) trading for Durant and having those 5 seconds
2) not trading for Williams
3) releasing Micic, Martin and Richards

4) asking Beal if he would take a pay cut each year equivalent to the TPMLE so 6m per year

5) possibly using draft capital to trade either O'Neale or Allen to take back less

the chose to trade for Williams first

Yeah. Trading for an injury prone dude was as much a mistake as trading for Durant or Beal. I hope there's a redemption arc in there somewhere, but I'm just not buying it. I hope like hell I'm wrong.

Releasing Micic was a given as was letting Martin go; not guaranteeing Richards wasn't as smart a move as they are believing it to be and I still think he could be moved at some point. He's a luxury at this point.

As for Beal et al, I'm not sure as to how this is going to play out. I would rather have Beal sit at home for two seasons or only play as needed in hopes he changes his mind about a trade than to do this stretch crap. And I'm fine on moving from O'Neale but less so on Allen. We need depth and shooting which he provides. O'Neale does as well, but if we can get a decent PG for him... we have to try.

For me, it all depends on priorities. Mine was not doing the Beal S&W and do everything I can to get cap space in 2027 as it gives you the ability to do sign free agents, take on contracts for draft capital etc.

And yes, the team would bottom out - but at the same time -35 wins also isn't getting you to the playoffs.

You're against the stretch? I would have never guessed


I too would prefer a straight up buy out and have Beal off in 2 yrs. But I also realize not every decision is purely about future roster construction and things like actual cash and trying to put a decent product on the floor factors into these decisions. I'm sure Ish's accountant is screaming at him to stretch

[BobbieL]

I just hope they are upfront that stretching Beal is about getting out of the repeater lux tax and saving $100mil+ in cash.

Flex and Gerald B (PHNX_SUNS) are already sending the message that the waive and stretch is about the repeater lux tax, not having the 2032 get to the bottom of the first round and lastly, the ability to combine salaries. All are true reasons to get out from apron levels. But unless mistaken, I think they could have cleared one apron, the second apron and had access to being able to combine players. Its just that there still would have been the huge lux tax payment

[BobbieL]

Yeah. Trading for an injury prone dude was as much a mistake as trading for Durant or Beal. I hope there's a redemption arc in there somewhere, but I'm just not buying it. I hope like hell I'm wrong.

Releasing Micic was a given as was letting Martin go; not guaranteeing Richards wasn't as smart a move as they are believing it to be and I still think he could be moved at some point. He's a luxury at this point.

As for Beal et al, I'm not sure as to how this is going to play out. I would rather have Beal sit at home for two seasons or only play as needed in hopes he changes his mind about a trade than to do this stretch crap. And I'm fine on moving from O'Neale but less so on Allen. We need depth and shooting which he provides. O'Neale does as well, but if we can get a decent PG for him... we have to try.

For me, it all depends on priorities. Mine was not doing the Beal S&W and do everything I can to get cap space in 2027 as it gives you the ability to do sign free agents, take on contracts for draft capital etc.

And yes, the team would bottom out - but at the same time -35 wins also isn't getting you to the playoffs.

You're against the stretch? I would have never guessed


I too would prefer a straight up buy out and have Beal off in 2 yrs. But I also realize not every decision is purely about future roster construction and things like actual cash and trying to put a decent product on the floor factors into these decisions. I'm sure Ish's accountant is screaming at him to stretch

He spent a lot of cash the last couple years as somebody didn't read the CBA (he could have hired a bunch of dudes on Twitter that know the NFL CBA to read the NBA CBA - your team Week, the Packers guy on twitter is very good on the Packers cap -but I digress) .. that bill is coming due hard. I mean, he said money wasn't an object but when you are paying what he paid in lux taxes to be 10 games under .500... its real money