Varsho/Moreno/Kirk Discussion Thread

[Randle McMurphy]

Jays won this trade years ago by choosing Kirk (best two way catcher in baseball) and acquiring Varsho (MVP caliber outfielder in baseball when healthy) for a worse catcher than the one they retained. It’s likely Atkins’ best move in his run here.

[brwnman]

Why? Aren't there 3 outfield spots? Catcher is uniquely single positional.

A Carroll Varsho pairing in the outfield is purely additive.

The crux of the argument is the player they held onto. If we're assuming Jays held onto Kirk because they thought he was the best option (and not because 'Zona coveted Moreno), then you have to use the same metric for Zona who held onto Carroll over Varsho. If the argument is, Jays were dealing from a position of strength, so was Zona. They were a good match as trading partners.

Jays were also trying Moreno at other positions (3rd base) because of his athleticism and try to utilize his bat in the lineup.

Yeah - I'm going to stick to the traditional way of evaluating a trade - you know the players that went each way. Gurriel and Moreno for Varsho. I still have Arizona winning the trade, but hold out hope Varsho will become an above average hitter (which is what they were betting on). I've enjoyed his defence but would much prefer if he could go back to hitting over 25 hrs with 750ops.

Kinda makes sense, doesn’t it? Instead of adding random players to the trade to justify the trade.

Zona has won this trade 3 years in a row by all metrics.

Jays winning with offense, and without Varsho in the lineup continues to prove how Varsho doesn’t contribute to winning and actively makes this team worse by playing. Quad-A (or maybe just triple A) players like Straw and Clase having more of an impact to winning at CF.

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

Even with all the injuries Varsho has had, he still outclasses them while on the field. One of the best trades of the decade.

[Mehar]

Moreno has been injured since June 14, and Varsho since May 31st. Both guys expected to come back after the all-star break. We will see how both guys perform the rest of the year, but Varsho will be a free agent after next year. Moreno still has four more years of control left in Arizona. It will be interesting to see if this organization offers Varsho an extension in the off-season.

This team has excess outfielders, and even Straw under contract for next year, along with a 8 million club option for 2027 and a 8.5 million option for 2028. With Straw as an insurance policy for elite defense, if Varsho asks for a ridiculous number on a long-term deal, I can see this organization choosing a wait and see approach and let Varsho become a free agent. See how he performs all of next year before committing to him long-term.

[bluerap23]

Read on Twitter

Even with all the injuries Varsho has had, he still outclasses them while on the field. One of the best trades of the decade.

You love to cherry pick stats. Even if you use WAR alone (and disregard everything else including control) you can't just pick one year. Since the trade Arizona is up 12.7 - 9.4 WAR

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

Even with all the injuries Varsho has had, he still outclasses them while on the field. One of the best trades of the decade.

You love to cherry pick stats. Even if you use WAR alone (and disregard everything else including control) you can't just pick one year. Since the trade Arizona is up 12.7 - 9.4 WAR

If you count Gurriel past one year (which makes no sense given he was a 1-year rental player and available for anyone to sign) and ignore the fact that Varsho has been injured for a lot of that time.

The trade undeniably got them clearly the best player in the deal (Varsho) and also allowed them to keep the best catcher in the organization at that time (Kirk). It was a massive win for this team.

[brwnman]

The trade gave Zona the best player, catcher, and 6 years of control for that player (Moreno). And gave them cap relief after year 1 to be able to extend LF they also acquired in the deal (Gurriel). AND allowed them to keep the best OF in their organization as part of the deal (Carroll)?

all for an oft-injured OF who's been easily replaced by Triple-A/Quad-A players and is on a bloated arb deal and the team is playing better without him than they have ever played with him? Maybe he's just bad for vibes.

Massive W for Arizona.

[Rapcity_11]

The crux of the argument is the player they held onto. If we're assuming Jays held onto Kirk because they thought he was the best option (and not because 'Zona coveted Moreno), then you have to use the same metric for Zona who held onto Carroll over Varsho. If the argument is, Jays were dealing from a position of strength, so was Zona. They were a good match as trading partners.

Jays were also trying Moreno at other positions (3rd base) because of his athleticism and try to utilize his bat in the lineup.

Yeah - I'm going to stick to the traditional way of evaluating a trade - you know the players that went each way. Gurriel and Moreno for Varsho. I still have Arizona winning the trade, but hold out hope Varsho will become an above average hitter (which is what they were betting on). I've enjoyed his defence but would much prefer if he could go back to hitting over 25 hrs with 750ops.

Kinda makes sense, doesn’t it? Instead of adding random players to the trade to justify the trade.

Zona has won this trade 3 years in a row by all metrics.

Jays winning with offense, and without Varsho in the lineup continues to prove how Varsho doesn’t contribute to winning and actively makes this team worse by playing. Quad-A (or maybe just triple A) players like Straw and Clase having more of an impact to winning at CF.

The Jays have won 63% of the games Varsho has played this year.

The Jays have won 57% of the games Varsho hasn't played this year.

[-MetA4-]

Can we please lock this thread already?

The amount of ridiculous hyperbole trolling and people lying through their teeth to try to validate themselves as correct is beyond embarrassing.

[Randle McMurphy]

Can we please lock this thread already?

The amount of ridiculous hyperbole trolling and people lying through their teeth to try to validate themselves as correct is beyond embarrassing.

It is definitely odd that some are still desperately clinging to a player who was dealt 2.5 years ago when we kept the best catcher in the organization out of the three (who is currently the most valuable player on a 1st place team) and also got the best player in the deal itself. In the end, they traded from a position of depth and did extremely well for themselves.

Can't we just enjoy what we have?

[Mehar]

The trade gave Zona the best player, catcher, and 6 years of control for that player (Moreno). And gave them cap relief after year 1 to be able to extend LF they also acquired in the deal (Gurriel). AND allowed them to keep the best OF in their organization as part of the deal (Carroll)?

all for an oft-injured OF who's been easily replaced by Triple-A/Quad-A players and is on a bloated arb deal and the team is playing better without him than they have ever played with him? Maybe he's just bad for vibes.

Massive W for Arizona.

Just a correction, but it was 7 years of control for Moreno and not 6 years. That is why Moreno is still earning $793,000 this year. Like I mentioned a couple of posts prior, I can see this organization taking a wait and see approach on Varsho before deciding to lock him long-term next year. See how he performs in all of 2026, with an elite defensive guy like Myles Straw under contract for next year, and two other Club options for 2027 and 2028.

You already have excess outfielders with Straw, Lukes, Loperfido, Santander/Springer, Schneider, Barger even playing RF, etc. If Varsho asks for a contract number that is unreasonable for them, I can see the front office let him walk after next year. The team has played its best baseball all year with him injured. Same with Anthony Santander.

[rarefind]

I might actually get the final word in because I agree, let's lock this up.

The Jays are the easy winners of this trade, guys. Strictly under the context of Varsho > Gurriel + Moreno. It is important context that the organization had Kirk in their back pocket.

However... We traded a #1 prospect in this deal. In a grander context, if this team ever trades a #1 prospect ever again we should be getting a MVP caliber player in return. The trade ended up working out just fine when considering what Moreno is, now. With that hindsight not a part of the equation, this deal was not a stroke of genius by our FO as it is being suggested. It was fine... We did fine.

Also, trading Gurriel and Teo within weeks of one another was not very clever.

[Asianiac_24]

IMO the Jays lost the trade due to the opportunity cost.

Gabriel Moreno was a highly touted prospect, and in theory we should be getting a close to elite player back. Perhaps someone like Devers from Boston.

Given the surplus of outfielders we have now, perhaps we should look to trade Varsho for an elite arm or prospects.

[bluerap23]

I might actually get the final word in because I agree, let's lock this up.

The Jays are the easy winners of this trade, guys. Strictly under the context of Varsho > Gurriel + Moreno. It is important context that the organization had Kirk in their back pocket.

However... We traded a #1 prospect in this deal. In a grander context, if this team ever trades a #1 prospect ever again we should be getting a MVP caliber player in return. The trade ended up working out just fine when considering what Moreno is, now. With that hindsight not a part of the equation, this deal was not a stroke of genius by our FO as it is being suggested. It was fine... We did fine.

Also, trading Gurriel and Teo within weeks of one another was not very clever.

It is somewhere between fine and meh in reality. No where near the best or worst trade the franchise has made. Probably doesn't warrant this much debate tbh when you put it this way. Obviously there is one particular Varsho fan that keeps stoking the debate by posting misleading graphics and statistics. Wanting to include Kirk in the deal and exclude Lourdes for some reason.

On the flip side. This forum has very little going on. This has probably been the most engaging topic, so I'm not sure why it needs to be closed. It would essentially reduce us to game threads and minor league prospects.

[Randle McMurphy]

I might actually get the final word in because I agree, let's lock this up.

The Jays are the easy winners of this trade, guys. Strictly under the context of Varsho > Gurriel + Moreno. It is important context that the organization had Kirk in their back pocket.

However... We traded a #1 prospect in this deal. In a grander context, if this team ever trades a #1 prospect ever again we should be getting a MVP caliber player in return. The trade ended up working out just fine when considering what Moreno is, now. With that hindsight not a part of the equation, this deal was not a stroke of genius by our FO as it is being suggested. It was fine... We did fine.

Also, trading Gurriel and Teo within weeks of one another was not very clever.

It is somewhere between fine and meh in reality. No where near the best or worst trade the franchise has made. Probably doesn't warrant this much debate tbh when you put it this way. Obviously there is one particular Varsho fan that keeps stoking the debate by posting misleading graphics and statistics. Wanting to include Kirk in the deal and exclude Lourdes for some reason.

On the flip side. This forum has very little going on. This has probably been the most engaging topic, so I'm not sure why it needs to be closed. It would essentially reduce us to game threads and minor league prospects.

Varsho and Kirk are clearly the team's two best players from a rate perspective (at least when Vlad is having his usual groundball seasons like in 2020, 2022, 2023 and 2025 and not the ones where he hits the ball in the air like in 2021 and 2024). Why anybody continues to complain about the deal that directly led to both being on the team confuses me to no end.

And sure, leave it open. At least it keeps things interesting and keeps this discussion in one place.

[Randle McMurphy]

IMO the Jays lost the trade due to the opportunity cost.

Gabriel Moreno was a highly touted prospect, and in theory we should be getting a close to elite player back. Perhaps someone like Devers from Boston.

Given the surplus of outfielders we have now, perhaps we should look to trade Varsho for an elite arm or prospects.

Varsho is an elite player when accounting for his historically good defense and a better and more valuable player than Devers.

Also, the primary reason the Jays are in 1st right now is because of their incredible team defense. They aren't particularly unique or good in any way but that and their pitching would be incredibly problematic without it. I would suggest not moving away from that identity.

[brwnman]

Yeah - I'm going to stick to the traditional way of evaluating a trade - you know the players that went each way. Gurriel and Moreno for Varsho. I still have Arizona winning the trade, but hold out hope Varsho will become an above average hitter (which is what they were betting on). I've enjoyed his defence but would much prefer if he could go back to hitting over 25 hrs with 750ops.

Kinda makes sense, doesn’t it? Instead of adding random players to the trade to justify the trade.

Zona has won this trade 3 years in a row by all metrics.

Jays winning with offense, and without Varsho in the lineup continues to prove how Varsho doesn’t contribute to winning and actively makes this team worse by playing. Quad-A (or maybe just triple A) players like Straw and Clase having more of an impact to winning at CF.

The Jays have won 63% of the games Varsho has played this year.

The Jays have won 57% of the games Varsho hasn't played this year.

Take away Varsho's partial games, and we're down to 54% winning percentage with him in the lineup. Beauty of SSS.

Since Varsho got injured and his vibes were off the team, Jays are winning at a much higher clip.

[brwnman]

Primary reason Jays are in 1st place is because of offense and particularly the turnaround in hitting with RISP.

You're not getting anything elite in return for Varsho. But the Jays should absolutely look to move him for SP at the trade deadline.

[brwnman]

The Jays are the easy winners of this trade, guys. Strictly under the context of Varsho > Gurriel + Moreno. It is important context that the organization had Kirk in their back pocket.

D'Backs are easy winners of this trade, guys. Strictly under the context of Moreno > Varsho. Gurriel was just a bonus who keep out-hitting Varsho. It is important context that the organization had Carroll in their back pocket who's a better player than anyone involved in the trade. Let's not forget years of control.

[Rapcity_11]

Kinda makes sense, doesn’t it? Instead of adding random players to the trade to justify the trade.

Zona has won this trade 3 years in a row by all metrics.

Jays winning with offense, and without Varsho in the lineup continues to prove how Varsho doesn’t contribute to winning and actively makes this team worse by playing. Quad-A (or maybe just triple A) players like Straw and Clase having more of an impact to winning at CF.

The Jays have won 63% of the games Varsho has played this year.

The Jays have won 57% of the games Varsho hasn't played this year.

Take away Varsho's partial games, and we're down to 54% winning percentage with him in the lineup. Beauty of SSS.

LOL no, that's not correct. Try again.