Around the NBA (Part Three)

[winforlose]

For what it is worth (even as a Lore/Rodriguez skeptic), the Second Apron has a few really nasty quirks for repeater teams which make it worth ducking, if possible. Beyond the general stuff like losing all TPE's, not having any MLE, no trading cash or long-term picks, etc., teams who are in the Second Apron 3-out-of-5 years automatically have their pick seven years in the future moved to the end of the First Round. This means if Minnesota was a super spender this year, they wouldn't be able to enter the Second Apron in any of the three following years, or their pick seven years in the future would be automatically moved to #30. That's a pretty brutal cost, it nukes a potential asset and leaves teams super vulnerable during that season.

It sucks, but the Second Apron makes expensive team building unviable without having to take on a MASSIVE penalty.

Agreed, but also remember that KAT did not need to be moved last year, much less salary dumped for DDV and Randle. Our strongest positions were SG and PF with Ant and Naz being core players. Losing KAT lost our backup C (a major wound last year,) and Dilly was not physically or mentally ready for the role we demanded of him. If you cannot get a good return on KAT, keep him another 3-5 months and try again. If still nothing, trade him this offseason. Also we could have turned Kyle into a MLE and had another legit PG and played Dilly in Iowa. I still think that was the difference between a WCF and winning the chip last year. With KAT we win the series and beyond.

That is a huge, HUGE leap of faith. Randle was an all star and DDV was a 6th MotY candidate. Not this horrible return for KAT that you are presenting.

Randle had an up and down playoffs like he had an up and down season. DDV was far from a 6th man of the year candidate, and was bad in the playoffs. But more importantly, we lacked roster balance. Not having a backup C cost us the series against OKC. Just like not having a starting PG did. How do we get those things, KAT and Kyle’s contracts.

[KGdaBom]

The Phoenix Suns last year. They used Okogie to increase salary where we dumped KAT to decrease it. The difference is the Suns were poorly balanced and offensive focused, we were defensive focused and in need of a PG.

So they did the exact same thing we did last year?

And how many teams are repeat 2nd apron teams like you demand us to be?

I will repeat it for you one more time, then you can go back and look up what I was saying last year to know I am have always been consistent. We didn’t make the Gobert trade for Ant, we did it for KAT. To maximize the KAT window and try to speed up the development of Ant. You don’t add all that salary before the CBA (especially because it was well known and talked about the owners were pissed about super spenders,) if you don’t plan to be one yourself. The problem with the last offseason is we were going to be in the 2nd apron anyway and we dumped salary without ducking below. It was the worst of both worlds. I didn’t want KAT traded for anything less than a legit return, instead we did it for DDV, an expiring Randle, and a first unlikely to convey (thank god it did.) We could have used Kyle to get another PG (turn him into an MLE, then move him,) and then worried about trading salary away the following year (again teams can do so without breaking apart and end up near but not in the 2nd apron.) It was mishandled last year. The result was an unbalanced roster which could not win the chip. This year we have the same problem, again because we salary dumped our best trade chip for the wrong *****g return.

You keep assuming your premise that we gave KAT away for a used jock strap. We got solid return.

[BlacJacMac]

The Phoenix Suns last year. They used Okogie to increase salary where we dumped KAT to decrease it. The difference is the Suns were poorly balanced and offensive focused, we were defensive focused and in need of a PG.

So they did the exact same thing we did last year?

And how many teams are repeat 2nd apron teams like you demand us to be?

I will repeat it for you one more time, then you can go back and look up what I was saying last year to know I am have always been consistent. You don’t make the Gobert trade for Ant, you did for KAT. To maximize the KAT window and try to speed up the development of Ant. You don’t add all that salary before the CBA (especially because it was well known and talked about the owners were pissed about super spenders,) if you don’t plan to be one yourself. The problem with the last offseason is we were going to be in the 2nd apron anyway and we dumped salary without ducking below. It was the worst of both worlds. I didn’t want KAT traded for anything less than a legit return, instead we did it for DDV, an expiring Randle, and a first unlikely to convey (thank god it did.) We could have used Kyle to get another PG (turn him into an MLE, then move him,) and then worried about trading salary away the following year (again teams can do so without breaking apart and end up near but not in the 2nd apron.) It was mishandled last year. The result was an unbalanced roster which could not win the chip. This year we have the same problem, again because we salary dumped our best trade chip for the wrong *****g return.

I give up.

Having the 2nd highest salary in the league. Not good enough for you. No. We needed to spend a billion dollars on a PG with SloMo's money after Conley had a great year, signed an extension and we drafted a lottery PG.

We didn't make the moves that YOU wanted. We suck.

We're in unprecedented territory as a franchise, and yet its all a colossal failure because we didn't win the title the past 2 years.

Somehow you went from being the biggest Wolves homer to the biggest Wolves critic in the span of 1 year. And we went to the WCF in BOTH SEASONS...

[KGdaBom]

Agreed, but also remember that KAT did not need to be moved last year, much less salary dumped for DDV and Randle. Our strongest positions were SG and PF with Ant and Naz being core players. Losing KAT lost our backup C (a major wound last year,) and Dilly was not physically or mentally ready for the role we demanded of him. If you cannot get a good return on KAT, keep him another 3-5 months and try again. If still nothing, trade him this offseason. Also we could have turned Kyle into a MLE and had another legit PG and played Dilly in Iowa. I still think that was the difference between a WCF and winning the chip last year. With KAT we win the series and beyond.

That is a huge, HUGE leap of faith. Randle was an all star and DDV was a 6th MotY candidate. Not this horrible return for KAT that you are presenting.

Randle had an up and down playoffs like he had an up and down season. DDV was far from a 6th man of the year candidate, and was bad in the playoffs. But more importantly, we lacked roster balance. Not having a backup C cost us the series against OKC. Just like not having a starting PG did. How do we get those things, KAT and Kyle’s contracts.

I'm talking about when we traded for them. I'm not certain about DDV. Did he start or come off the bench for the Knicks? He had an incredible season when we traded for him. Randle was a star. Hugely productive player.

[KGdaBom]

So they did the exact same thing we did last year?

And how many teams are repeat 2nd apron teams like you demand us to be?

I will repeat it for you one more time, then you can go back and look up what I was saying last year to know I am have always been consistent. You don’t make the Gobert trade for Ant, you did for KAT. To maximize the KAT window and try to speed up the development of Ant. You don’t add all that salary before the CBA (especially because it was well known and talked about the owners were pissed about super spenders,) if you don’t plan to be one yourself. The problem with the last offseason is we were going to be in the 2nd apron anyway and we dumped salary without ducking below. It was the worst of both worlds. I didn’t want KAT traded for anything less than a legit return, instead we did it for DDV, an expiring Randle, and a first unlikely to convey (thank god it did.) We could have used Kyle to get another PG (turn him into an MLE, then move him,) and then worried about trading salary away the following year (again teams can do so without breaking apart and end up near but not in the 2nd apron.) It was mishandled last year. The result was an unbalanced roster which could not win the chip. This year we have the same problem, again because we salary dumped our best trade chip for the wrong *****g return.

I give up.

Having the 2nd highest salary in the league. Not good enough for you. No. We needed to spend a billion dollars on a PG with SloMo's money after Conley had a great year, signed an extension and we drafted a lottery PG.

We didn't make the moves that YOU wanted. We suck.

We're in unprecedented territory as a franchise, and yet its all a colossal failure because we didn't win the title the past 2 years.

Somehow you went from being the biggest Wolves homer to the biggest Wolves critic in the span of 1 year. And we went to the WCF in BOTH SEASONS...

You are 1000% correct. I've had my fair share of arguments with W4L, but I used to really appreciate his positivity. Now he's the worst Negative Nellie in the entire forum. I think he thrives off of the controversy he creates.

[KGdaBom]

The Phoenix Suns last year. They used Okogie to increase salary where we dumped KAT to decrease it. The difference is the Suns were poorly balanced and offensive focused, we were defensive focused and in need of a PG.

We signed Randle and Naz to big money extensions. We could have easily let one of them walk. We are big spenders.

Again you are having the wrong conversation. It isn’t about this year. Last year we dumped KAT to save ownership money and stay above the 2nd apron line. We cut salary to reduce the tax bill instead of adding it in the face of an insanely high bill.

NEGATIVE NELLIE.

[winforlose]

I will repeat it for you one more time, then you can go back and look up what I was saying last year to know I am have always been consistent. You don’t make the Gobert trade for Ant, you did for KAT. To maximize the KAT window and try to speed up the development of Ant. You don’t add all that salary before the CBA (especially because it was well known and talked about the owners were pissed about super spenders,) if you don’t plan to be one yourself. The problem with the last offseason is we were going to be in the 2nd apron anyway and we dumped salary without ducking below. It was the worst of both worlds. I didn’t want KAT traded for anything less than a legit return, instead we did it for DDV, an expiring Randle, and a first unlikely to convey (thank god it did.) We could have used Kyle to get another PG (turn him into an MLE, then move him,) and then worried about trading salary away the following year (again teams can do so without breaking apart and end up near but not in the 2nd apron.) It was mishandled last year. The result was an unbalanced roster which could not win the chip. This year we have the same problem, again because we salary dumped our best trade chip for the wrong *****g return.

I give up.

Having the 2nd highest salary in the league. Not good enough for you. No. We needed to spend a billion dollars on a PG with SloMo's money after Conley had a great year, signed an extension and we drafted a lottery PG.

We didn't make the moves that YOU wanted. We suck.

We're in unprecedented territory as a franchise, and yet its all a colossal failure because we didn't win the title the past 2 years.

Somehow you went from being the biggest Wolves homer to the biggest Wolves critic in the span of 1 year. And we went to the WCF in BOTH SEASONS...

You are 1000% correct. I've had my fair share of arguments with W4L, but I used to really appreciate his positivity. Now he's the worst Negative Nellie in the entire forum. I think he thrives off of the controversy he creates.

Go back to the positive thread from last season. Was saying we were going to win at least one playoff series and get to the WCF if we avoided OKC. It is literally written there for posterity. I had serious doubts we could beat OKC with an unbalanced roster. Guess what, we couldn’t!

[KGdaBom]

I give up.

Having the 2nd highest salary in the league. Not good enough for you. No. We needed to spend a billion dollars on a PG with SloMo's money after Conley had a great year, signed an extension and we drafted a lottery PG.

We didn't make the moves that YOU wanted. We suck.

We're in unprecedented territory as a franchise, and yet its all a colossal failure because we didn't win the title the past 2 years.

Somehow you went from being the biggest Wolves homer to the biggest Wolves critic in the span of 1 year. And we went to the WCF in BOTH SEASONS...

You are 1000% correct. I've had my fair share of arguments with W4L, but I used to really appreciate his positivity. Now he's the worst Negative Nellie in the entire forum. I think he thrives off of the controversy he creates.

Go back to the positive thread from last season. Was saying we were going to win at least one playoff series and get to the WCF if we avoided OKC. It is literally written there for posterity. I had serious doubts we could beat OKC with an unbalanced roster. Guess what, we couldn’t!

OMG we didn't beat one of 6 teams in NBA history with 68 wins. We suck. Sell off the team and start over.

[BlacJacMac]

I give up.

Having the 2nd highest salary in the league. Not good enough for you. No. We needed to spend a billion dollars on a PG with SloMo's money after Conley had a great year, signed an extension and we drafted a lottery PG.

We didn't make the moves that YOU wanted. We suck.

We're in unprecedented territory as a franchise, and yet its all a colossal failure because we didn't win the title the past 2 years.

Somehow you went from being the biggest Wolves homer to the biggest Wolves critic in the span of 1 year. And we went to the WCF in BOTH SEASONS...

You are 1000% correct. I've had my fair share of arguments with W4L, but I used to really appreciate his positivity. Now he's the worst Negative Nellie in the entire forum. I think he thrives off of the controversy he creates.

Go back to the positive thread from last season. Was saying we were going to win at least one playoff series and get to the WCF if we avoided OKC. It is literally written there for posterity. I had serious doubts we could beat OKC with an unbalanced roster. Guess what, we couldn’t!

And who did?

Ummm. No one.

The horror. We lost to the champions - that won 68 games. We should be ashamed.

Blow it up. Fire the coach and GM.

[winforlose]

So they did the exact same thing we did last year?

And how many teams are repeat 2nd apron teams like you demand us to be?

I will repeat it for you one more time, then you can go back and look up what I was saying last year to know I am have always been consistent. You don’t make the Gobert trade for Ant, you did for KAT. To maximize the KAT window and try to speed up the development of Ant. You don’t add all that salary before the CBA (especially because it was well known and talked about the owners were pissed about super spenders,) if you don’t plan to be one yourself. The problem with the last offseason is we were going to be in the 2nd apron anyway and we dumped salary without ducking below. It was the worst of both worlds. I didn’t want KAT traded for anything less than a legit return, instead we did it for DDV, an expiring Randle, and a first unlikely to convey (thank god it did.) We could have used Kyle to get another PG (turn him into an MLE, then move him,) and then worried about trading salary away the following year (again teams can do so without breaking apart and end up near but not in the 2nd apron.) It was mishandled last year. The result was an unbalanced roster which could not win the chip. This year we have the same problem, again because we salary dumped our best trade chip for the wrong *****g return.

I give up.

Having the 2nd highest salary in the league. Not good enough for you. No. We needed to spend a billion dollars on a PG with SloMo's money after Conley had a great year, signed an extension and we drafted a lottery PG.

We didn't make the moves that YOU wanted. We suck.

We're in unprecedented territory as a franchise, and yet its all a colossal failure because we didn't win the title the past 2 years.

Somehow you went from being the biggest Wolves homer to the biggest Wolves critic in the span of 1 year. And we went to the WCF in BOTH SEASONS...

It is because you are taking statements I am making out of context and trying to bend them into something I never said. I was saying since the DLO trade we need a plan for the PGOF. I was saying we should not salary dump KAT, and that you don’t trade for Rudy with the intention of dumping KAT. I was saying if you are gonna be in the 2nd apron either way, the penalties are identical, only the dollar amount changes. I was saying if you have a limited ability to add salary, and a glaring roster need, use the easiest means Kyle’s bird rights to fix it. I was saying 37 year old Mike was gonna quality drop (spoiler alert, he did.) I was saying Dilly was not ready to play backup PG ti a contender (spoiler alert, he wasn’t.) I was saying you don’t move Karl for less than a starting PG and backup C, (spoiler alert, we did and it hurt us.)

You are failing to establish that I am an inconsistent jerk, because I have been consistent and I was ******** right about most of my predictions.

[winforlose]

You are 1000% correct. I've had my fair share of arguments with W4L, but I used to really appreciate his positivity. Now he's the worst Negative Nellie in the entire forum. I think he thrives off of the controversy he creates.

Go back to the positive thread from last season. Was saying we were going to win at least one playoff series and get to the WCF if we avoided OKC. It is literally written there for posterity. I had serious doubts we could beat OKC with an unbalanced roster. Guess what, we couldn’t!

OMG we didn't beat one of 6 teams in NBA history with 68 wins. We suck. Sell off the team and start over.

Denver took them to 7 with one of the worst defenses in the league, a shallow bench, and an injured MPJ. Indy took them to 7 and they were gifted the first two series by serious injuries to their opponents. OKC was very beatable, we just didn’t have the coach or balanced roster to do it. We steamrolled other poorly constructed teams on route to losing to the first good team we faced.

Edit to add: I even said during the series that OKC is the first team that was should not expect to beat. The first team that we didn’t have a clear talent advantage over. Against a fairly even talent level, coaching, schemeing, and the margin of error all matter much more.

[winforlose]

You are 1000% correct. I've had my fair share of arguments with W4L, but I used to really appreciate his positivity. Now he's the worst Negative Nellie in the entire forum. I think he thrives off of the controversy he creates.

Go back to the positive thread from last season. Was saying we were going to win at least one playoff series and get to the WCF if we avoided OKC. It is literally written there for posterity. I had serious doubts we could beat OKC with an unbalanced roster. Guess what, we couldn’t!

And who did?

Ummm. No one.

The horror. We lost to the champions - that won 68 games. We should be ashamed.

Blow it up. Fire the coach and GM.

I have been on record saying our schemes have been a problem for over a year. I noticed in the 23/24 playoffs we cannot win a chip without a more structured offense and more flexibility on defense. I have also been on record that I don’t like TC’s moves, especially with KAT and Kyle. I will once again refer you to the positivity thread where I predicted exactly what came to pass. You want to characterize me as something other than I am, and ignore what I actually point out, even when I am correct.

[KGdaBom]

Go back to the positive thread from last season. Was saying we were going to win at least one playoff series and get to the WCF if we avoided OKC. It is literally written there for posterity. I had serious doubts we could beat OKC with an unbalanced roster. Guess what, we couldn’t!

OMG we didn't beat one of 6 teams in NBA history with 68 wins. We suck. Sell off the team and start over.

Denver took them to 7 with one of the worst defenses in the league, a shallow bench, and an injured MPJ. Indy took them to 7 and they were gifted the first two series by serious injuries to their opponents. OKC was very beatable, we just didn’t have the coach or balanced roster to do it. We steamrolled other poorly constructed teams on route to losing to the first good team we faced.

Edit to add: I even said during the series that OKC is the first team that was should not expect to beat. The first team that we didn’t have a clear talent advantage over. Against a fairly even talent level, coaching, schemeing, and the margin of error all matter much more.

NEGATIVE NELLIE!
You hate Connelly and you hate Finch. You hate Gobert, DDV, and Randle. You basically hate the Minnesota Timberwolves.

[younggunsmn]

I will repeat it for you one more time, then you can go back and look up what I was saying last year to know I am have always been consistent. You don’t make the Gobert trade for Ant, you did for KAT. To maximize the KAT window and try to speed up the development of Ant.

You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that they didn't make the trade for Ant if you are also arguing they made it to speed up Ant's development.

Most of us agree it was made to help Ant. You've made it abundantly clear you don't agree.

They made the trade to speed up Ant and the team WINNING not his personal development as a player.
I think that's a pretty important distinction.

Gobert is basically an anchor that Ant has to drag up and down the floor on offense all game long who gets him constantly double and triple teamed and a big reason he's not a 30 PPG scorer yet.

Basically we pushed up our timeline but capped our ceiling.
Most teams that win a title are filled with 2 way players.

Not guys who are above average on only one side of the ball like Rudy Gobert and Julius Randle.
You're threading an incredibly small needle to win against the truly elite teams when you're starting with those weaknesses already baked into your best players.

[Klomp]

Basically we pushed up our timeline but capped our ceiling.
Most teams that win a title are filled with 2 way players.

And yet you are trying to hitch your wagon to KAT, one of the most defensively-exploited centers of the last 10 years....

[winforlose]

I will repeat it for you one more time, then you can go back and look up what I was saying last year to know I am have always been consistent. You don’t make the Gobert trade for Ant, you did for KAT. To maximize the KAT window and try to speed up the development of Ant.

You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that they didn't make the trade for Ant if you are also arguing they made it to speed up Ant's development.

Most of us agree it was made to help Ant. You've made it abundantly clear you don't agree.

We acted to both win a championship during the KAT window, with the hope/belief that playing competitive basketball would help develop Ant and Jaden better. That being true, Gobert and Karl is a twin towers that most teams struggle to handle. Gobert and Ant is a terrible fit. Ant is not a PNR ball handler, and Gobert is not a floor spacer. Neither compliments the other. You don’t bring in Gobert to make life easy on Ant.

[winforlose]

Basically we pushed up our timeline but capped our ceiling.
Most teams that win a title are filled with 2 way players.

And yet you are trying to hitch your wagon to KAT, one of the most defensively-exploited centers of the last 10 years....

Jaden/KAT/Rudy is one of the toughest trios to defend in the entire league. Add Ant to that, and watch out. The reason our offense was so bad in 23/24 is because our coach held back Jaden and didn’t let him be the midrange assassin you saw in 24/25. Jaden didn’t just develop the shot either, we saw it in the 23/24 playoffs. Also poor scheme work, ball movement, and reluctant 3 point shooting held back that team.

[younggunsmn]

Basically we pushed up our timeline but capped our ceiling.
Most teams that win a title are filled with 2 way players.

And yet you are trying to hitch your wagon to KAT, one of the most defensively-exploited centers of the last 10 years....

And yet we don't beat Denver without his great work on Jokic on the defensive end.
In a series that saw Rudy get abused by Jokic like a rag doll and torched by Aaron Gordon.
The only playoff series win the last 2 years that was truly impressive and not against a deeply flawed or injured team.
The opposing coach building the game plan specifically around attacking Rudy Gobert in both that and the Dallas series.
Or that KAT didnt single handedly win a few crucial playoff games for the Knicks last year with big 4th quarters.

We had built an above average defensive scheme around KAT before the Gobert trade that really only needed to swap out DeAngelo Russell's dead weight for Mike Conley to become a top 5 defense, and then added Walker Kessler who was an 11/12/2.4 player last year to do exactly what we brought in Rudy for except for about 35 million dollars less per year on average.

Keep telling me how Rudy's 7.9/8.6/1.2 line in the playoffs where he was pretty much unplayable for all but a few of the games last year was something this team couldn't win without.

Rudy is a player who pushes up your regular season floor and helps you beat all the bad and mediocre teams.
I'm not convinced any team will ever get to the top of the mountain playing him big minutes.

The Gobert trade moved up our timeline but capped our ceiling.
I will die on that hill.
If adding Rudy Gobert was enough to get this team a championship we would have been able to get past a very beatable Dallas team in the WCF last year.

[FrenchMinnyFan]

Read all this and I'm confused. Are we a good team or a bad one ?

I disagree on most of comments stating that we will have been better with KAT and Slomo.

I agree on the fact that getting Rudy is a good choice for regular season and some matchups but his limitation are huge. That's why i am still convinced that the missing part a a good back up C unless Joan or Rocco improved very fast and become regular rotation player at the second part of the season. .

[Note30]

OMG we didn't beat one of 6 teams in NBA history with 68 wins. We suck. Sell off the team and start over.

Denver took them to 7 with one of the worst defenses in the league, a shallow bench, and an injured MPJ. Indy took them to 7 and they were gifted the first two series by serious injuries to their opponents. OKC was very beatable, we just didn’t have the coach or balanced roster to do it. We steamrolled other poorly constructed teams on route to losing to the first good team we faced.

Edit to add: I even said during the series that OKC is the first team that was should not expect to beat. The first team that we didn’t have a clear talent advantage over. Against a fairly even talent level, coaching, schemeing, and the margin of error all matter much more.

NEGATIVE NELLIE!
You hate Connelly and you hate Finch. You hate Gobert, DDV, and Randle. You basically hate the Minnesota Timberwolves.

LOL. What an Ad Hominem.

Criticisms don't make anyone less of a fan or supporter of anything. Blindly drinking the Kool Aid doesn't either fwiw.