The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens!

[SkyBill40]

Looks like we're about to get another go of "Point Book" and that's going to end up in the same place as last time. We need a POINT GUARD, not a shooting guard with questionable ballhandling skills and/or decision making playing out of position.

What do these GM's do all day besides run around with their heads up their asses?

Wah Wah.

Yeah. That's about the response I figured might come from you.

[Puff]

People against the Beal stretch buyout have to ask themselves: Are you comfortable being a luxury-tax 2nd apron team with one of the highest salaries in the league but nowhere close to being championship caliber or playoff caliber material? In other words, are you happy having a 2nd apron team with restrictions and inability for wiggle room for the next 2 years all while trying to rebuild or soft-reset?

Cause you have no right being a high luxury tax bill if u can't even make the playoffs and don't even have "luxury" players.

The waive and stretch is your get out of jail card. Or else you're in jail for 2 more years.

The Suns aren't close to a championship team - there is not ONE player they can sign with the TPMLE or even the MLE that would make them a playoff team. Not one. So the people that don't want to w/s is because of using the next two years to level set, let the young players grow and possibly have some cap flexibility in 2027. So its just about being in jail two years - when they really aren't going to compete instead of five years.

Activity doesn't equal accomplishment and using the TPMLE is just activity. 25 wins or 35 wins -- whats the difference - neither makes the playoffs

I will bet you $100 Suns make the playoffs next season (Play-In at like 9 or 10)

I am calling them 44-38

I hope you are right.

[TeamTragic]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/qDLg8q0IEb

[Katz/Murray] As long as Bradley Beal secures a contract buyout with the Phoenix Suns, the LA Clippers are likely the leaders to sign the guard, league sources tell The Athletic. As of Tuesday, Beal and the Suns were still discussing a contract buyout. Both sides remain optimistic it will get done.

Beal could have stepped up and initiated the buyout earlier in FA and received multiple offers.

Instead he wanted to drag this out and now he won't make his money back

[BobbieL]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/qDLg8q0IEb

[Katz/Murray] As long as Bradley Beal secures a contract buyout with the Phoenix Suns, the LA Clippers are likely the leaders to sign the guard, league sources tell The Athletic. As of Tuesday, Beal and the Suns were still discussing a contract buyout. Both sides remain optimistic it will get done.

Beal could have stepped up and initiated the buyout earlier in FA and received multiple offers.

Instead he wanted to drag this out and now he won't make his money back

I think we should wait on the reports to see how much he gave up . But if reports are 13.9 and with the TPMLE 5.3 for first year - probably only giving up 3m or thereabouts to pick a better team to play for the two years . And in all likelihood, he was always going to pick a team with only the TPMLE to offer as those are the better teams in the league

And maybe its the Front Office that is dragging their feet. They have proven to be incompetent in the 2.5 years Mat has been the owner

[lilfishi22]

For me, it all depends on priorities. Mine was not doing the Beal S&W and do everything I can to get cap space in 2027 as it gives you the ability to do sign free agents, take on contracts for draft capital etc.

And yes, the team would bottom out - but at the same time -35 wins also isn't getting you to the playoffs.

You're against the stretch? I would have never guessed


I too would prefer a straight up buy out and have Beal off in 2 yrs. But I also realize not every decision is purely about future roster construction and things like actual cash and trying to put a decent product on the floor factors into these decisions. I'm sure Ish's accountant is screaming at him to stretch

He spent a lot of cash the last couple years as somebody didn't read the CBA (he could have hired a bunch of dudes on Twitter that know the NFL CBA to read the NBA CBA - your team Week, the Packers guy on twitter is very good on the Packers cap -but I digress) .. that bill is coming due hard. I mean, he said money wasn't an object but when you are paying what he paid in lux taxes to be 10 games under .500... its real money

Didn't we bring in that cap guru Trevor Bukstein for this reason? I think he's been aware of the implications of going way over the cap but he just threw caution to the wind and wrote cheques he couldn't cash

[lilfishi22]

Shams:

Another Bartlestein client unless there is another agent with the last name Bartlestein that isn't related to Josh B.

Yet ANOTHER 6-6 230 pound I'm not sure if you're a guard, small forward, or power forward ambiguous random basketball player.

It's a NBA wing league these days. Cant have 2 many wings especially ones that can shoot.

I am far less enthused he's both a Bartlestein player and a Michigan guy

[BobbieL]

You're against the stretch? I would have never guessed


I too would prefer a straight up buy out and have Beal off in 2 yrs. But I also realize not every decision is purely about future roster construction and things like actual cash and trying to put a decent product on the floor factors into these decisions. I'm sure Ish's accountant is screaming at him to stretch

He spent a lot of cash the last couple years as somebody didn't read the CBA (he could have hired a bunch of dudes on Twitter that know the NFL CBA to read the NBA CBA - your team Week, the Packers guy on twitter is very good on the Packers cap -but I digress) .. that bill is coming due hard. I mean, he said money wasn't an object but when you are paying what he paid in lux taxes to be 10 games under .500... its real money

Didn't we bring in that cap guru Trevor Bukstein for this reason? I think he's been aware of the implications of going way over the cap but he just threw caution to the wind and wrote cheques he couldn't cash

I thought Bukstein was a Sarver guy and they brought in Bartlestein because he was the guy who could make trades with the cap

And you could be right - Ishbia thought he could work around it

[lilfishi22]

Flex and Gerald B (PHNX_SUNS) are already sending the message that the waive and stretch is about the repeater lux tax, not having the 2032 get to the bottom of the first round and lastly, the ability to combine salaries. All are true reasons to get out from apron levels. But unless mistaken, I think they could have cleared one apron, the second apron and had access to being able to combine players. Its just that there still would have been the huge lux tax payment

Yeah simple way to look at it was:

Getting under the 2nd apron was a true need (pick penalty, trade restrictions, ect). This could have been done multiple ways.

Getting under the tax is a pure money play. I get it, no matter how rich you are if you can save over $100 mil in real cash with a simple procedure you seriously consider it.

For real, Week. I've long preferred Mat save his GD money for a sunny day. Money you make today is money you spend tomorrow. I was dismayed by how many fans were pleased by Ishbia's financial recklessness, which was kind of like cheering on a friend who'd just refinanced his house to put a jacuzzi on the roof. God bless whomever convinced our own Mr. Toad to settle down.

I was one of those guys. I presumed incorrectly he had a better plan B but there just never were.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt that similar to Boston, our front office were willing to go all in but also had a contingency plan to strategically pull back on high spending to move to a reload phase. But I think as we've progressed and made moves over time, those moves made a strategic retreat no longer viable. Like the Nurkic/Grayson trade which cost draft capital to move on from Nurk and likely Grayson who we extended. Then Beal which will end up being a $100m dead salary for half a decade. And a host of others.

[lilfishi22]

Yeah simple way to look at it was:

Getting under the 2nd apron was a true need (pick penalty, trade restrictions, ect). This could have been done multiple ways.

Getting under the tax is a pure money play. I get it, no matter how rich you are if you can save over $100 mil in real cash with a simple procedure you seriously consider it.

For real, Week. I've long preferred Mat save his GD money for a sunny day. Money you make today is money you spend tomorrow. I was dismayed by how many fans were pleased by Ishbia's financial recklessness, which was kind of like cheering on a friend who'd just refinanced his house to put a jacuzzi on the roof. God bless whomever convinced our own Mr. Toad to settle down.

4

Under the old CBA -- -it was fine to have the big lux tax as you still could combine players, have access to the TPMLE, etc. But the new CBA was very prohibitive and not even money can buy your way out of it. And when he traded for Beal - if the player had been a PG like Dame - at least it would have fit. Beal never fit with Book and Durant. He learned a lesson - ego took a hit as well as the pocket book

As I mentioned before, we were really the first major victim of the 2nd apron. Ego, inexperience and a lack of savvy definitely got to Ishia. It is a bit of bad luck with the timing of the 2nd apron because when he made the KD trade which signalled we were going for it, the full details of the current CBA had not been publicised yet. So the 2nd apron restrictions weren't known at the time and I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that owners weren't aware of the increase in repeater tax rates to something much harsher.

Maybe even with the information, he would've still went ahead but at least there's *some* deniability here. Nevertheless, a more experienced and savvy GM would've probably waited to see the final CBA before pulling the trigger

[BobbieL]

For real, Week. I've long preferred Mat save his GD money for a sunny day. Money you make today is money you spend tomorrow. I was dismayed by how many fans were pleased by Ishbia's financial recklessness, which was kind of like cheering on a friend who'd just refinanced his house to put a jacuzzi on the roof. God bless whomever convinced our own Mr. Toad to settle down.

4

Under the old CBA -- -it was fine to have the big lux tax as you still could combine players, have access to the TPMLE, etc. But the new CBA was very prohibitive and not even money can buy your way out of it. And when he traded for Beal - if the player had been a PG like Dame - at least it would have fit. Beal never fit with Book and Durant. He learned a lesson - ego took a hit as well as the pocket book

As I mentioned before, we were really the first major victim of the 2nd apron. Ego, inexperience and a lack of savvy definitely got to Ishia. It is a bit of bad luck with the timing of the 2nd apron because when he made the KD trade which signalled we were going for it, the full details of the current CBA had not been publicised yet. So the 2nd apron restrictions weren't known at the time and I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that owners weren't aware of the increase in repeater tax rates to something much harsher.

Maybe even with the information, he would've still went ahead but at least there's *some* deniability here. Nevertheless, a more experienced and savvy GM would've probably waited to see the final CBA before pulling the trigger

If I recall, the new CBA was signed post Durant. So yes, the Suns got a little hosed with trading for Durant because the rules flipped post trade. But the CBA was in place for the Beal trade- that was just a bad trade

[lilfishi22]

People against the Beal stretch buyout have to ask themselves: Are you comfortable being a luxury-tax 2nd apron team with one of the highest salaries in the league but nowhere close to being championship caliber or playoff caliber material? In other words, are you happy having a 2nd apron team with restrictions and inability for wiggle room for the next 2 years all while trying to rebuild or soft-reset?

Silly to be a high luxury tax team if u can't even make the playoffs and don't even have "luxury" players. It's embarrassing being a sub-par team over the 2nd apron with so many restrictions and inability to aggregate salaries in trade for a team trying hard to rebuild NOW for Booker, not in 2 years.

This is like that 27 year old dude that just bought a BMW M3 and living in an apartment with his parents cause he's got no more money left.

The waive and stretch is your get out of jail card now. Five years of 19 million cap hit isn't much considering the Cap increases 10% each year. You can still sign a significant free agent next season to play with Booker if u clear the deck correctly.

EDIT: Edited to add some things including the BMW analogy

It's not my pocketbook so no, I don't really care. It's a bad look but it's not my bank balance being affected.

I also don't think the car analogy works either because you've already bought the M3 and have owned it for a couple of years. It's not like we literally just bought it yesterday. It would be more like,

Don't waive and stretch:
You're still paying the full loan, plus expensive insurance, registration, and maintenance. It’s draining your finances every year — but after 2 years, you're completely free of it. During this time you could also try and sell it and downgrade to something cheaper.

Waive and stretch
You give the car away now — it’s no longer in your garage and you can’t drive it. But you still have to pay off the remaining loan, just over 5 years instead of 2. We're free of the running costs and we have more cash in our pocket because it's not going towards the car but that loan will be there for 5 years and you can't pay it off early.

[lilfishi22]

He spent a lot of cash the last couple years as somebody didn't read the CBA (he could have hired a bunch of dudes on Twitter that know the NFL CBA to read the NBA CBA - your team Week, the Packers guy on twitter is very good on the Packers cap -but I digress) .. that bill is coming due hard. I mean, he said money wasn't an object but when you are paying what he paid in lux taxes to be 10 games under .500... its real money

Didn't we bring in that cap guru Trevor Bukstein for this reason? I think he's been aware of the implications of going way over the cap but he just threw caution to the wind and wrote cheques he couldn't cash

I thought Bukstein was a Sarver guy and they brought in Bartlestein because he was the guy who could make trades with the cap

And you could be right - Ishbia thought he could work around it

There was definitely another guy we poached from some other team and he's suppose to be like the CBA guru

[BobbieL]

People against the Beal stretch buyout have to ask themselves: Are you comfortable being a luxury-tax 2nd apron team with one of the highest salaries in the league but nowhere close to being championship caliber or playoff caliber material? In other words, are you happy having a 2nd apron team with restrictions and inability for wiggle room for the next 2 years all while trying to rebuild or soft-reset?

Silly to be a high luxury tax team if u can't even make the playoffs and don't even have "luxury" players. It's embarrassing being a sub-par team over the 2nd apron with so many restrictions and inability to aggregate salaries in trade for a team trying hard to rebuild NOW for Booker, not in 2 years.

This is like that 27 year old dude that just bought a BMW M3 and living in an apartment with his parents cause he's got no more money left.

The waive and stretch is your get out of jail card now. Five years of 19 million cap hit isn't much considering the Cap increases 10% each year. You can still sign a significant free agent next season to play with Booker if u clear the deck correctly.

EDIT: Edited to add some things including the BMW analogy

It's not my pocketbook so no, I don't really care. It's a bad look but it's not my bank balance being affected.

I also don't think the car analogy works either because you've already bought the M3 and have owned it for a couple of years. It's not like we literally just bought it yesterday. It would be more like,

Don't waive and stretch:
You're still paying the full loan, plus expensive insurance, registration, and maintenance. It’s draining your finances every year — but after 2 years, you're completely free of it. During this time you could also try and sell it and downgrade to something cheaper.

Waive and stretch
You give the car away now — it’s no longer in your garage and you can’t drive it. But you still have to pay off the remaining loan, just over 5 years instead of 2. We're free of the running costs and we have more cash in our pocket because it's not going towards the car but that loan will be there for 5 years and you can't pay it off early.

I know this -- if trying to build a title team - I would have done moves to try to create maximum cap space in 2027 over the TPMLE this summer

As even though the odds of Luka or one of those other free agents from a few pages ago is probably NOT happening -- Malcolm Brogdon this summer is not getting the Suns to the playoffs either. So I would aim higher. Plus with cap space, you can take on a bad contract for a draft pick and roll it to the next year.

But aiming higher costs Mat Ishbia $200m.

[KdoubleDees23]

Looks like we're about to get another go of "Point Book" and that's going to end up in the same place as last time. We need a POINT GUARD, not a shooting guard with questionable ballhandling skills and/or decision making playing out of position.

What do these GM's do all day besides run around with their heads up their asses?

Wah Wah.

Yeah. That's about the response I figured might come from you.

Exactly. Keep Crying before we play one game .

I like the youth, the hustle, and not having to watch KD and Brad Beal wah wah on the bench for 20 + games

[WeekapaugGroove]

I think the Point Book arguments are overblown. This past season he averaged 7.1 assists, good for top 10 in assist per game in the league (tied actually with Lillard). Book's turnover % was at 11.9, better than Trae Young (17.9%), Jokic (12.8%), Cade (16%), Harden (18%), Lebron (15.5%), CP3 (17.1%), and Giddey (18.4%). The only guys who had a better turnover % who were also in the top 10 for assists per game was Brunson and Haliburton.

**edit** basketball-reference did not include players who missed over 30 games or something like that, so it didn't include Luka (7.7 assists), Ball (7.4 assists), and Dejounte Murray (7.3 assists) who all averaged more assists per game than Book.

The Suns don't need Booker to be the ultimate playmaker; the Suns just need a better offensive system. The Suns were mostly a jumpshooting team. Taking the least number of shots at the rim in the entire NBA and taking the most number of shots in the midrange. We all know the midrange shot is probably the most inefficient shot, yet the Suns were taking the most number of shots here, mostly because of Booker and KD. Considering Book/KD are the most elite shooters in this range, it makes sense, but the Suns need to have more variation in their style of play. This is why a Jalen Green pairing with Booker makes some sense, since Green likes to attack the basket.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

I think the Suns can utilize this type of offense to allow a better offensive flow for Booker and Green. Suns offense looked too stagnant, similarly the Rockets did a lot of standing around as well.


The next three videos just show the Rockets offense, and how Green was having issues in the playoffs. I think Green did not adjust well to the Warriors scouting him fairly well, but I also don't think the Rockets did enough to put Green into a better position after game 2. For one, they sometimes run a strange lineup where the Rockets try to exploit the Warriors lack of size by putting in Sengun and Adams, but then also have Amen Thompson in. So, Rockets have 3 non-shooters in the game with Jalen Green, so the Warriors know to clog the paint on any Green drive.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Has Ott talked about what type of O he wants to run? Looking at the roster I see a Morey ball Rockets group where they have Booker and Green spam pick and rolls with giant rim runners like Williams and Maluach and then have everyone else ready to shoot 3s if their man helps. I don't think some pretty motion style O would work with this group.

[SkyBill40]

Wah Wah.

Yeah. That's about the response I figured might come from you.

Exactly. Keep Crying before we play one game .

I like the youth, the hustle, and not having to watch KD and Brad Beal wah wah on the bench for 20 + games

Not crying at all. You, like usual, aren't paying attention and foolishly believe that anything that's not slobberingly positive is speaking ill of the team. Sometimes criticism is necessary, especially when we've tried something before and it failed miserably. But go on ahead and think what you wish.

[bigfoot]

I think the Point Book arguments are overblown. This past season he averaged 7.1 assists, good for top 10 in assist per game in the league (tied actually with Lillard). Book's turnover % was at 11.9, better than Trae Young (17.9%), Jokic (12.8%), Cade (16%), Harden (18%), Lebron (15.5%), CP3 (17.1%), and Giddey (18.4%). The only guys who had a better turnover % who were also in the top 10 for assists per game was Brunson and Haliburton.

**edit** basketball-reference did not include players who missed over 30 games or something like that, so it didn't include Luka (7.7 assists), Ball (7.4 assists), and Dejounte Murray (7.3 assists) who all averaged more assists per game than Book.

The Suns don't need Booker to be the ultimate playmaker; the Suns just need a better offensive system. The Suns were mostly a jumpshooting team. Taking the least number of shots at the rim in the entire NBA and taking the most number of shots in the midrange. We all know the midrange shot is probably the most inefficient shot, yet the Suns were taking the most number of shots here, mostly because of Booker and KD. Considering Book/KD are the most elite shooters in this range, it makes sense, but the Suns need to have more variation in their style of play. This is why a Jalen Green pairing with Booker makes some sense, since Green likes to attack the basket.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

I think the Suns can utilize this type of offense to allow a better offensive flow for Booker and Green. Suns offense looked too stagnant, similarly the Rockets did a lot of standing around as well.


The next three videos just show the Rockets offense, and how Green was having issues in the playoffs. I think Green did not adjust well to the Warriors scouting him fairly well, but I also don't think the Rockets did enough to put Green into a better position after game 2. For one, they sometimes run a strange lineup where the Rockets try to exploit the Warriors lack of size by putting in Sengun and Adams, but then also have Amen Thompson in. So, Rockets have 3 non-shooters in the game with Jalen Green, so the Warriors know to clog the paint on any Green drive.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Has Ott talked about what type of O he wants to run? Looking at the roster I see a Morey ball Rockets group where they have Booker and Green spam pick and rolls with giant rim runners like Williams and Maluach and then have everyone else ready to shoot 3s if their man helps. I don't think some pretty motion style O would work with this group.

Some of the comments he made were about speed of play and ability to attack the basket for layups and dunks or kicking it out for a three.

I tend to agree with you on pick and roll versus motion. Lob threats with four 7 foot bigs (Williams, Maluach, Ighodaro, Richards) plus Fleming w/7'5" wingspan) and lots of three point shooters (Allen, O'Neale, Brooks, Brea, Gillispie, Hayes-Davis, Booker/Green). PnR plus a large dose of DHO would make sense and be quick to implement over motion O.

Of course the simplest offense is playing great defense and getting buckets in transition. Pace and defense have to be the two most important focal points of improvement. Would love to see top 10 finishes in both. IMO, those two metrics are a measure of effort and team buy-in.

[lilfishi22]

4

Under the old CBA -- -it was fine to have the big lux tax as you still could combine players, have access to the TPMLE, etc. But the new CBA was very prohibitive and not even money can buy your way out of it. And when he traded for Beal - if the player had been a PG like Dame - at least it would have fit. Beal never fit with Book and Durant. He learned a lesson - ego took a hit as well as the pocket book

As I mentioned before, we were really the first major victim of the 2nd apron. Ego, inexperience and a lack of savvy definitely got to Ishia. It is a bit of bad luck with the timing of the 2nd apron because when he made the KD trade which signalled we were going for it, the full details of the current CBA had not been publicised yet. So the 2nd apron restrictions weren't known at the time and I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that owners weren't aware of the increase in repeater tax rates to something much harsher.

Maybe even with the information, he would've still went ahead but at least there's *some* deniability here. Nevertheless, a more experienced and savvy GM would've probably waited to see the final CBA before pulling the trigger

If I recall, the new CBA was signed post Durant. So yes, the Suns got a little hosed with trading for Durant because the rules flipped post trade. But the CBA was in place for the Beal trade- that was just a bad trade

Yeah good point. The argument for that is that we were all in at that point so we had to go for it. Obviously in hindsight, it was a critical decision point which we gambled wrongly on. It is what it is. I just think we needed a better plan to scale down once it became clear it wasn't going to work

[lilfishi22]

I think the Point Book arguments are overblown. This past season he averaged 7.1 assists, good for top 10 in assist per game in the league (tied actually with Lillard). Book's turnover % was at 11.9, better than Trae Young (17.9%), Jokic (12.8%), Cade (16%), Harden (18%), Lebron (15.5%), CP3 (17.1%), and Giddey (18.4%). The only guys who had a better turnover % who were also in the top 10 for assists per game was Brunson and Haliburton.

**edit** basketball-reference did not include players who missed over 30 games or something like that, so it didn't include Luka (7.7 assists), Ball (7.4 assists), and Dejounte Murray (7.3 assists) who all averaged more assists per game than Book.

The Suns don't need Booker to be the ultimate playmaker; the Suns just need a better offensive system. The Suns were mostly a jumpshooting team. Taking the least number of shots at the rim in the entire NBA and taking the most number of shots in the midrange. We all know the midrange shot is probably the most inefficient shot, yet the Suns were taking the most number of shots here, mostly because of Booker and KD. Considering Book/KD are the most elite shooters in this range, it makes sense, but the Suns need to have more variation in their style of play. This is why a Jalen Green pairing with Booker makes some sense, since Green likes to attack the basket.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

I think the Suns can utilize this type of offense to allow a better offensive flow for Booker and Green. Suns offense looked too stagnant, similarly the Rockets did a lot of standing around as well.


The next three videos just show the Rockets offense, and how Green was having issues in the playoffs. I think Green did not adjust well to the Warriors scouting him fairly well, but I also don't think the Rockets did enough to put Green into a better position after game 2. For one, they sometimes run a strange lineup where the Rockets try to exploit the Warriors lack of size by putting in Sengun and Adams, but then also have Amen Thompson in. So, Rockets have 3 non-shooters in the game with Jalen Green, so the Warriors know to clog the paint on any Green drive.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

The key argument against Point Book for me is simply that he's a far better scorer than he is as some sort of Harden-esque elite playmaker/scorer which he just isn't. And while he is a pretty good playmaker, the drop off point when it comes to diminishing returns is both early and steep. There's far more value in him not having that PB role or have it drastically reduced and focusing on being the scorer.

It's about finding the balance between when to use him as a playmaker and when to use him primarily as a scorer and with PB, it's like 60/40 playmaker/scorer but I feel like when the perfect balance for him as an NBA player might be closer to like 20/80

[WeekapaugGroove]

Both the KD and Beal trades were complete failures but I understand why they gave it a shot.

I actually have more of an issue with the in season moves last season, it was clear it wasn't working and they should have moved KD and started the reset then vs burning more assets trying to salvage the season.