RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #1 — 2013 LeBron James

[Special_Puppy]

Very simple exercise. Decided to use 538's RAPTOR Metric since its the best historical metric available for players since the merger. Decided to look at each players RAPTOR WAR where a player's best season is weighted 100%, a player's 2nd best season is weighted 90%, a player's 3rd best season is weighted 80%, etc. Also weighted playoffs twice as much. Jordan ended up 1st with 172 peak WAR. LeBron ended up 2nd with 157 peak WAR. 3rd place is Stockton with 134 peak WAR. 10th place is Harden with 115 peak WAR. So pretty sizable gap between Jordan+LeBron and everyone else with Jordan probably being a step ahead of LeBron peak wise

[eminence]

he looks best across 3 strange ones and not close in the real one. I don't want to be cynical but uh not trusting that adjustment whatever

May I ask which one is the 'real' one?

the Raw ones I guess? Also I've been sent alot of different WOWYs since I got here so like I tune it out after a while. I know Lebron is like 2nd behind steph in a career one and he has a ridiculous 13 year one and alot of crazy 1 year stuff.

Missed games or team change? In season or off season team change? Win pace or SRS? Single season? 5 Season? No teammate adjustments? '98 MJ a +41 win player?!?!? Etc.

Point being there are always decisions being made that significantly change our 'raw/real' values no matter how simple they are.

With how noisy single season raw team change WOWY is I would personally give it near zero value here. See the discussed '10 LeBron scoring a +42 win pace departing the Cavs, and '11 Bron dropping to a +11 arriving in Miami. It's just not a serious metric for this level of differentiation.

[Top10alltime]

Peaks

VOTE BILL RUSSELL 1969
this is p easy. He won 11 rings as the best player by faar and was so good ppl been strugglin hard to come up with any kinda arg against the season when he was bout to retire. Man literally crusshes superteams with bad help n was also the coach. He also was facin craazy comp

ut this doesn't mean anything of itself. For the KD parallel to work, the Celtics need to be great(relative to the comp) without Russell. Nothing suggests this is true beyond the Celtics first few titles(i listed the different stuff in my previous post). Crucially everything we have suggests the opposite was true in 1969, and here the competition is far better than "not weak".

1969 isn't even Bill Russell's peak, let alone the GOAT peak. 1969 Celtics in that same PO run were carried largely by their offense, not defense.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1331730773618982972/1334282579355897906/IMG_0260.png?ex=686ee6fc&is=686d957c&hm=eb79bc1463dc720193e80e82d9e27b0a58868fc83640bf78b9677cb42450d3eb&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1498&height=693

+6.4 offense and -0.6 defense!!! In a peak of Bill Russell's where he is supposedly the GOAT defender and in the postseason where he is supposedly a clutch player and playoff riser!! Wow!! Yeah, no, this isn't GOAT peak material. And here's some film to watch...

Watch on YouTube

In this game, a down season from Wilt who wasn't even a top 5 player that season, he outplayed Bill Russell this game even on Bill's best aspect (defense). Notice how Bill doesn't defend after he gets 5 fouls, and is actually worse rim protector!

Simply put, Bill Russell isn't even top 5 peak ever, let alone the GOAT peak.

[eminence]

I like Williams peak quite a lot, but I don't think it's '69.

[metta-tonne]

. The Gap is also uh bigger than I figured. But yeah Lebron-ball is fake news ngl. Like we see here Lebron can be the most impactful playmaker even when Kyrie Irving is holding the ball more:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210707132926/https://backpicks.com/2017/06/27/star-player-effects-on-teammate-efficiency/

Anyway it's not really changing anything with Lebron but I'm just going to say I think newer players are mostly better today with all the advancements and foreign talent and all that. So this isn't going to be the most old person friendly list.



Lebron - 2009,
2012, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020
best peak, best prime, best career. King of RAPM and WOWY. Great defense AND goat offense. He’s gives you the best deal to win what can I say?

Curry - 2016
2017, 2015, 2022

In comparison to MJ who I think is in the GOAT offensive player as well as Lebron / Curry / Magic

MJ when he became the primary Offensive initiator who the one deciding everything offensive pace because he loses Pippen due to injury:
MJ 1989 Game 6 Jordan 13 assist game

RESUME: 69 DTOS,
34 EDTOS,
total poss when MJ on floor - 86

MJ Average 0.80 DTO and 0.39 EDTO. Per possession

And when MJ play in system which he doesn't have the ball as much like lebron in Miami heat situation. To be fairest I pick highest assist game - 13 Assist.

[RESUME Game 2 MJ 1991 offensively Total Possession when MJ was in the floor – 61 Total Possession of play MJ have action both on/off ball – 58 Total Possession of play MJ didn’t affect or didn’t have the opportunity to affect – 3 Playmaking
DTOs - 41
EDTOs – 17
ADAs – 4
Double - 8
Triple - 0
Création - 14
R’Creation ( Rim ) - 8
P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) - 6
SC ( Screen ) - 0
EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 7
RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 13
BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 3
BB ( Bring ball up ) - 22
MJ have 0.67 DTOs and 0.28 EDTOs Per Possession

Lebron creating separation leave the room for his teammate to score. So even when his scoing get lower due to the defense loading on him he able to redirect it for his playmaking to be better. his impact as both floor riser and Ceilling get maximize cause he able to be elite both on/off ball

Wow. I mean yeah Lebron playmaking more makes sense but if I divide this right MJ is bringing the ball up more? That really isn't what I thought it would be
completely changed the game. goat offense. Letting him shoot isn’t a deal you should take. Underrated handles and a talented passer too. Most skilled player ever?

Giannis - 2021
2019, 2020, 2022
Two-way monster. Best defender and can score 30. You should take that deal. Won a ring with kris middleton and jrue bledsoe. Kris middleton and Jrue Bledsoe. 40 points and amazing defense in the finals.

[metta-tonne]

MJ: ‘88 or '92

Despite having 6 chips through the 90s, I think his best season was '88, as did a few others in this thread. As someone mentioned already, he won MVP, Defensive MVP, and got the Scoring Title that season. Won't repeat his stats as it's above already, but arguably the best regular season of all time. If we want to focus on playoff performance, '92 must be mentioned as well.

Yeah I don’t know about that one friend:
https://sports.yahoo.com/a-closer-look-at-michael-jordans-1988-dpoy-award-raises-questions-about-its-validity-has-lebron-james-been-chasing-a-ghost-140452567.html

There’s a lot of um questionable Jordan stuff flying around to say the least. And that includes this thread tbh

[Ollie Coraline]

Bill Russell 62

The most decorated player ever. Won the most. No one talks about him the best but when you think about it. He’s the only player to win as player and coach. The only player to win at least 3 titles with different second best teammates. It was argued well the last minutes matter and Russell always wins those too. And what seals it is he was able to win when he didn’t have great help. Several times. It’s a team sport. But if you’re always winning no matter what. Maybe that says alot about you.

I choose 62 because that year he had his best scoring in the playoffs and they fall 22 points of net rating when he isn’t there. They lost all the games too but I have been informed net is better to use.

Kareem 71

31/3/16.

6 time MVP Kareem Abdul Jabbar the year he leads one of the best teams ever. Great defender. Great attacker. Many say he was the best at both and I have good reason to think that is more accurate than when the same has been said of Lebron or Jordan. They also had highest net rating ever before OKC this year. Great team great player.

2013 James

27/7/8

Almost perfect. Almost DPOY. Almost unanimous. Almost 70 wins. So many almosts. But most importantly he won back to back. I am conflicted on the final. On one hand beating the Spurs is great and Wade was hurt. On the other hand he shot poorly multiple games. If he plays better he could be second. But I will accept him here now.

[jalengreen]

Very simple exercise. Decided to use 538's RAPTOR Metric since its the best historical metric available for players since the merger. Decided to look at each players RAPTOR WAR where a player's best season is weighted 100%, a player's 2nd best season is weighted 90%, a player's 3rd best season is weighted 80%, etc. Also weighted playoffs twice as much. Jordan ended up 1st with 172 peak WAR. LeBron ended up 2nd with 157 peak WAR. 3rd place is Stockton with 134 career WAR. 10th place is Harden with 115 career WAR. So pretty sizable gap between Jordan+LeBron and everyone else with Jordan probably being a step ahead of LeBron peak wise

Are you talking about two different metrics here? you mentioned "peak WAR" and then "career WAR" so unclear to me if these are different calculations or not

[Special_Puppy]

Nobody cares about hypotheticals.

Jordan played the 1991 postseason with knee tendinitis. "If he was healthy he would have averaged 36/10/10..."

Nah we ain't doing that. The 2010 Celtics series happened as much as you wish it hadn't.

Now, how about let's compare 2010 peak Bron to 1991 peak Jordan (using Lebron's 2nd worst series game and Jordan's 2 best ones)

Spoiler:

Lebron game 4 against Celtic 2010 both end

Watch on YouTube

;t=3534s

One of Lebron worst game in this series ( Second worst )

Playmaking
-DTOs ( Defender take out )
-EDTOs ( Extra defender taken out )
_ ADA ( Additional defender affected )
--Double
-Triple
-Création ~ R’Creation ( Rim )/ P’Creation ( Prerimeter )
-SC ( Screen assist ) ( GHOST SCREEN DO NOT COUNT )
- EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- BB ( BRING Ball up )
Scoring
-FGA
-FGM
-M ( midrange )
-P ( Post play )
-R ( Rim : lay up / dunk )
-T ( 3pt )
-PB ( Putback )
-FTA + FTM
-OCT ( Offensive Contest )
-OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested )
- FD ( Foul draw by defender )

Rebound
-O-Reb ( offensive Rebound )
-*Obx ( Offensive Box Out )
-*Nobx ( Non offensive Boxout)
- D-reb ( defensive Rebound )
- Dbx ( defensive box out )
- Ndox ( non defensive box out )
- EP ( Empty Paint )
Defense
-PPs – EPP/IPP ( Paint Protection ) ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- PPDs – EPPD/IPPD ( Primary Perimeter defendings ) ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- DCT ( Defensive contest )
- NDCT ( non contest )
- HPD ( help defense ) – EHPD/IHPD ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- OBD ( Offball defense when the offball player is in action to make a play or in advantageous position ) – EOBD/IOBD ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )

( P - Possession. If your team get the Oreb or foul and your team get control of the ball it will be counted as same possession )
Q1 Offense
P1 = 0.15 – Bron get ball with Paul on him drive pass to shaq in post
P2 = 0.50 – Bron get ball on post with Paul face up game lebron try pump fake many time but Paul don’t bite. Shaq offensive foul
P3 = 1.28 – Bron bring ball up dribble to top key with Paul on him so he pass to Antawn at wing who drive lay up ( BB1 DTOs1 RPDL1 )
P4 = 2.19 – Lebron bring ball up get pick up by Allen then KG come double so bron bounce pass to Antawn who drive hand off to shaq for a dunk ( Double1 DTOs2-3 EDTOs1 RPDL2 R’Creation BB2)
P5 = 3.34 – Bron get bron top key from Mo then drive on allen spin move lay up ( FGA1 FGM1 R1 OCT1 )
P6 = 4.40 – bron bring ball up pass out. Mo get foul ( Heat ball ) ( BB3 )
P6 = 5.04 – Bron at corner when Mo pass to Antawn drive dunk
P7 = 6.22 – bron bring ball up Antawn come screen so bron drive so KG pick him up and Paul close on the lane. Bron pass to Anthony wide open for 3pt ( BB4 DTO4-5 EDTOs2 RPDL3 P’Creation1 )
P8 = 6.48 – Mo bring ball up pass to shaq who miss post shot. Bron at 3pt line
P9 = 7.10 – Bron bringball up fast break drive see double but rondo come steal from behide ( Double2 BB5 ) ( Cav ball )
P10 = 7.29 – Bron out bound pass to MO off screen for a long 2pt missed ( RPDL4 )
P11 = 8.45 – Mo bring ball up pass to bron on top keys. Bron pass to shaq in the post. Thrn cut to the basket with shaq bounce pass for him ( bad pass from shaq ) get intercepted
P12 = 9.12 – Lebron at 3pt line when Mo bring ball up and pass to Antawn for a miss shot
P13 = 9.40 – lebron stay at the wing when MO bring ball up and play PNR with shaq. Mo drive jump shot get block
P14 = 10.50 – West bring ball up so bron ghost screen then pop to the top keys. Defensive 3sec foul ( FTA1 FTM1 ) ( Cav ball )
P14 = 11.35 – Lebron get ball at wing then Antawn come screen for him. Lebron dribble pass KG who try to edge off screen and jump shot at top key missed ( FGA2 T1 OUCT1 )
P15 = 12.40- lebron cut backdoor to the post get ball and get foul suddenly ( FD1 ) ( Cav ball )
P15 = 13.20 – Bron have the ball on wing with tony allen on him and rondo on the side who is there to prevent a drive. Bron pass to open west but KG pick him up. West pass to Shaq for a foul ( DTOs6-7 EDTOs3 RPDL5 )
P16 = 14.40 – Lebron bringball up Antawn screen so the lebron try to drive with KG close out and Ray allen who close out in the lane. Pass ro Anthony at 3pt line but Ray allen able to close out but Anthony drive fake and hit a long 2pt ( BB6 DTOs8-9 EDTOs4 ADAs1 RPDL6 )
P17 = 15.20 – Lebron at 3pt line when shaq post up and get foul in paint
P18 = 17.48 – Lebron get ball on top key with Tony pick him up. Shaq come screen PNR and lebron drive get double kick to Anthony. Anthony drive with ray try to cover Vare come screen. Anthony floater on KG. Vare get Oreb pass to West for a MISSED 3pt ( DTOs10-11 EDTOs5 ADAs2 RPDL7 )
P19 = 18.25 – Lebron get ball on logo then Vare come screen PNR. Lebron drive get triple team but bad pass to Anthony at 3pt line get hit out bound ( Triple1 DTOs12-13-14 EDTOs6-7 BPDL1 ) ( Cav ball )
P19 = 19.05 get ball on wing and shoot a 3pt cause of shot clock missed ( FGA3 T2 OCT2 )
P20 = 19.47 – Lebron cut backdoor to post get ball with tony on him. Lebron drive but get trip so Foul ( FD2 FTA2-3 FTM2-3 )
P21 = 22.08 – Lebgron get ball at 3pt line drive on tony allen bad pass to Vare in paint TOV ( BPDL2 )
P22 = 23.00 – Bron bring ball up drive pull up jump shot at the wing ( BB7 FGA4 FGM2 M1 OCT3 )
P23 = 23.24 – west bring ball up drive kick to to Hickson who missed
P24 = 25.28 – west bring ball up so bron screen switch. West bad pass to bron but bron still able to get it drive get double for a foul in paint ( FD3 FTA4-5 FTM4 Double3 )
P25 = 26.42 – lebron bring ball up with rondo on him. He dribble around abit to waste the final shot clock. Powe come screen so bron fake drive see 3 defender on his path to the paint so kick to west at 3pt line who fake then drive get block ( DTOs15-16-17 EDTOs8-9 ADAs3 EPDL1 P’Creation2 ) ( Cav ball )
P25 = 27.16 – West get ball and give to bron with 2 sec left. Bron fake drive pull up long 2pt on tony missed ( FGA5 M2 OCT4 )
Q2 Offense
P26 = 37.47 – Lebron get ball near logo drive on allen with shaq screen but Perkin edge so bron pass to Antawn at 3pt linr who drive pass to west punp fake pass back to Antawn who missed ( DTOs18 ADAs4 RPDL8 )
P27 = 38.04 – lebron bring ball up with Paul close him up and rondo catching to help so bron pass to open Anthony who pass to Antawn get block ( BB8 DTOs19-20-21 EDTOs10-11 P’Creation3 EPDL2 )
P28 = 38.50 – Lebron waiting at 3pt line when west ISO ball get block
P29 = 40.10 – Lebron get ball at 3pt line pass to shaq then cut to basket. Shaq make shot of postup
P30 = 40.50 – Bron bring ball up post up rondo to paint attempt lay get block by perkins retake the Oreb but got foul ( BB9 FGA6 P1 OCT5 FD4 Oreb1 OBx1 ) ( cav ball )
P30 = 41.40 – Lebron drive get triple make a bouce pass to Anthony. Anthony can’t handle the ball and TOV ( triple2 DTOs22-23-24 EDTO12-13 RPDL9 )
P31 = 43.01 – Lebron running around paint offball then go out for ball at logo but get foul by allen ( FD5 FTA6-7 FTM5 )
P32 = 45.10 – lebron get ball corner drive on allen but perkin come double and KG on lane so Bron jump pass to antwan in paint for layup ( Double4 DTOs25-26-27 EDTOs14-15 R’Creation1 ADAs5 EPDL3 )
P33 = 45.34 – Lebron get ball then Antawn come screen allen so bron blow by KG and get double in paint but layup and ONE ( Double5 FGA7 R2 Oct6 FD6 FTA8 FTM6 )
P34 = 46.50 – bron bring ball up pass to mo at half court. Mo drive with bron cutting to basket but Mo get foul ( BB10 )
P35 = 47.51 – Lebron bring ball up fast break see 2 defender on his lane so kick to Anthony but bad pass TOV ( Could be Creation but bad pass ) ( BB11 DTOs28-29 EDTOs16 BPDL3 )
P36 = 48.38 – Bron get ball then play PNR with shaq. Lebron get double so bounce pass to shaq but KG rotate to meet shaq at rim. Shaq get foul ( Double6 Dto30-31 EDTOs17 RPDL10 )
P37 = 49.50 – Lebron go the post when Antawn get ball at rim for a layup from MO
P38 = 50.12 – Bron bring ball up passs to antawn at top keys. Then go offball post up on rondo at ft line but didn’t get the pass ( BB12 )
P39 = 52.00 – Lebron get ball top keys take ball off to logo then drive jump shot but ball get poke out his hand TOV ( FGA8 M2 OCT7 )
P40 = 52.30 – bron bring ball up drive in trasnsition get foul by allen ( FD7 FTA9-10 FTM7 )
P41 = 54.22 – Anthony pump fake and miss a 3pt when bron was at FT line
Q3 offense
P42 = 55.30 – Lebron get ball on the wing with Ray on him so Antawn come to screen but KG edge even before the screen is set. Lebron dribble by and KG + allen trip on each other so bron drive bounce pass to Antawn rolling for open dunk ( DTOs32-33-34-35 EDTOs18-19-20 EPDL3 R’Creation2 )
P43 = 55.52 – Mo bring ball up so Bron screen on rondo ( SC2 )
P44 = 57.40 – Bron get ball at half court with paul on him then KG switch on bron. Pass to Antawn at corner who drive get foul ( cav ball )
P44 = 58.10 – entry pass to shaq and get ball back. KG and Paul try to come on him and shaq roll to basket. Bron fake pass to shaq and pass to Antawn for open dunk ( DTO36-37 EDTOs21 ADAs6 R’Creation3 EPDL4 )
P45 = 58.42 – lebron bring ball up in transition and pass to Antawn when the defense didn’t set yet. Antawn drive hand off to shaq for a dunk ( BB13 DTO38-39 EDTOs22 P’Creation4 RPDL11 )
P46 = 59.25 – Mo bring ball up get kick ball ( CAV ball )
P46 = 59.47 – Bron get ball at top keys then drive layup on PP ( FGA9 FGM3 R3 OCT8 )
P47 = 101.13 – Bron get ball at 3ptline drive gte double then pass to shaq at rim who got foul ( DTOs40-41 EDTO23 RPDL12 R’Creation4 double7 )
P48 = 102.40 – Parker hit 3pt while bron at the wing
P40 = 103.00 – Mo bring ball Up so bron cut to basket . Mo drive hand off to shaq for a dunk
P50 = 103.38 -Mo bring ball Up get kick ball ( CAV BALL )
P50 = 104.00 – Bron get ball in corner but missed 3pt ( FGA10 T3 OCT9 )
P51 = 104.25 – Parker fastbreak pass to shaq at paint for easy layup
P52 = 105.14 – Brom at to the paint when Antawn get pass deflected out
P53 = 106.02 – Lebron go in paint but parker pass for bron get intercepted mid way
P54 = 107.42 – Bron bring ball Up drive get double but shot an toght fall away ( BB13 Double8 FGA11 FGM4 M3 OCT10 )
P55 = 108.54 – Mo bring ball Up dribble top key then made a 3pt
P56 = 111.03 -Bron bring ball Up drive get double and the ball got stole ( BB15 Double9 )
P57 = 112.20 – Lebron PNR with vare. Bron drive get double with another player attemptinga steal them bron bounce pass to vare for a layup ( DTOs42-43-44 EDTOs24-25 EPDL5 Double10 R’Creation5 )
P58 = 112.54 – bron bring ball Up then Antwan come screen. Lebron drive get 3 defender around him so pass yo MO for a 3pt ( BB16 DTOs 45-46-47 EDTOs26-27 ADAs7 P’Creation5 EPDL6 )
P59 = 114.06 – Bron get ball top key Vare come screen so bron drive get double pass to west who fake 3pt then get foul ( DTOs48-49-50 EDTO28-29 ADAs8 RPDL13 P’Creation6 )
P60 = 117.20 – Lebron get ball drive see double team coming so pass but get intercepted ( BPDL4 )
P61 = 117.35 – bron bring ball Up PNR with Vare bring 4 defender in Paint then pass to Mo who missed 3pt ( BB17 DTOs51-52-53-54 EDTOs30-31-32 EPDL6 P’Creation7 )
Q4 Offense
P62 = 119.27 – Parker TOV
P63 120.00 – Bron pump fake 2 time then shoot 3pt missed ( FGA12 T4 OUCT1 )
P64 = 121.25 – Bron bring ball up get double pass to parker. Get ball back drive pass to Hickson get ball back dribble out see double te4am coming pass to west who pass to parker missed 3pt ( DTOs55-56 EDTO33 RPDL14 Double11 / DTOs57-58-59 EDTO34-35 RPDL15 / DTOs60-61 EDTO36 RPDL16 P’creation8 ADAs9 )
P65 = 122.10 – Bron get ball at 3pt line see soft double so pass inside for Hictson. Loses ball TOV
P66 = 123.12 – Lebron bring ball Up get pick up half court by Rondo. Drive thru rondo but miss layup ( BB18 FGA13 R4 OCT11 )
P67 = 123.48 – Bron moving around backline when west drive layup got block
P68 = 124.50 – Lebron PNR with Vare. Bron see double coming bounce pass to vare who did get ball in time TOV ( DTOs62-63 EDTos37 BPDL5 )
P69 = 125.20 – Bron at 3pt line when Mo drive TOV
P70 = 126.00 – Amtawn miss wild open 3pt when bron at the wing
P71 = 127.05 – Bron bring ball Up PNR with Vare see lane block so give to mo who drive made shot ( BB19 )
P72 = 127.45 – Bron bring ball Up Antawn come screen lebron fake shoot then pass to open Antawn who drive pass to vare for a layup ( BB19 DTOs64-65 ADAs10-11 RPDL17 P’Creation9 )
P73 = 128.11 – bron bring ball Up fast break dunk ( BB20 FGA14 FGM5 R5 OUCT2 )
P74 = 129-56 – Bron post up at elbow get ball then pull back to top keys drtive on KG get double in Paint for a layup and ONE ( FGA15 FGM6 R6 OCT13 Double12 FD8 FTA11 FTM8 )
P75 = 131.15 – Bron cut backdoor to get pass at corner drive get double then pass to Antawn ar corner who drive pass to jame miss layup ( DTOs66-67 EDTOs38 P’Creation10 RPDL18 / FGA16 R7 OUCT3 )
P76 = 132.24 - – Bron cut backdoor to get pass at wing get sofr double see Vare cutting so pass to Vare for a layup and ONE ( DTOs68-69 EDTOs39 R’Creation6 RPDL19 )
P77 = 133.51 – Mo get foul by KG ( Cav ball )
P77 = 134.20 – Antawn miss layup while bron at corner
P78 = 135.00 – Lebron get ball at ft line then KG switch on him lebron pull back fake drive pass to vare miss open long 2pt ( DTOs70 RPDL20 )
P79 = 137.54 – Bron get ball PNR with MO get pick on by KG. pass back to Mo who drive pass to Antawn who loses ball
P80 = 139.41 – Bron get inbound pass drive but miss layup ( FGA17 R8 OCT14 )
P81 = 141.10 – Parker bring ball up then miss a pull up 3pt
P82 = 141.50 – Bron bring ball up then pull 3pt miss ( BB21 FGA18 T5 OCT 15 )
P83 = 142.20 – MO drive in fastbreak get foul
P84 = 145.00 – bron bring ball up but get double full court pass to mo who got foul by KG
P85 147.12 – Mo get inbound pass drive miss layup
END

Q1 Defense
P1 = 0.36 – Bron guardeing Paul on top key then KG come screen lebron cannot get pass the screen so shaq switch to Paul pull up jump shot ( PPDs1 )
P2 = 1.20 – Lebron on the elbow off ball and Paul is on 3pt line
P3 = 2.10 – ray allen post mo William lebron try to come help but too late
P4 = 3.10 – Rondo bring ball up hand off to Paul so lebron try to close out but get blow by. Paul drive but charge foul on Anthony ( PPD2 IPPD1 )
P5 = 4.30 – Bron guard Paul offball when ray hit a 3pt
P6 = 5.20 – Bron at elbow with Paul offball but CAV 3SEC foul ( Celtic ball )
P7 = 6.10 – ray allen get ball dribble to FT line bron come help so ray pass out to rondo who drive layup on contest ( HPD1 )
P8 = 6.40 – lebron switch on KG offball at elbow when rondo drive split layup on shaq + Anthony

P9 = 6.53 – Paul get ball in transition try to drive but bron pick him up. Paul backdown pass to KG in post ( PPD3 EPPD1 )
P10 = 7.40 – Lebron at the elbow with Paul then switch on rondo off ball. KG drive get foul on Antawn
P11 = 8.54 – Rondo bring ball up from transition. Lebron come from behide to to snatch the ball out and Cav ball ( PPD4 EPPD2 )
P12 = 9.20 – Lebron comeback defense in the paint roaming. Then try to close out on ray allen who got the ball at 3pt line. Allen blow by with bron on his side and meet shaq in paint for a floater ( PPD5 IPPD2 DUCT1 )
P13 = 9.49 – Rondo take ball fast break attempt drive on Anthony lebron who was on Perkins come help close the lane, Rondo kick to allen at 3pt line Missed 3pt. Paul Oreb get foul ( HPD2 EHPD1 )
P14 = 11.45 – Lebron set on elbow guard Paul offball. Rondo drive split defense for floater missed. Perkin foul offball
P15 = 14.23 – Lebron on tony allen. Rondo pass to tony but he pass back. Rondo lob to KG who cut backdoor on shaq
P16 = 15.04 – Lebron on post off ball guarding tony allen. When rondo hit a open jumper with KG Screening
P17 = 16.10 – Tony bring ball up so lebron is on him and force him to pass. Lebron follow tony to short corner but Rasheed come screen so tony cut back door for the ball in paint. Lebron get out screen and catch up in time. Tony pass back. Rondo dribble around abd miss his shot. Lebron boxout with tony in paint. Long rebound that Antawn loses it and end in tony hand. Who drive on Antawn for a foul ( PPD6 PP1 DBX1 )
P18 = 18.04 – Rondo bring ball up fast break lebron meet him at the paint and contest the shot make him miss. But KG steal Rebound from Vare for a lay up ( PP2 EPP1 DCT1 )
P19 = 19.10 – Rondo fast break drive on Anthony. Bron was tony coming back in transition
P20 = 21.00 _ lebron on elbow with tony when ray drive ge ball hit out hand by Vare ( Celtic ball )
P20 = 21.50 – Tony allen get ball top keys so lebron close out and contest shot ( PPD7 EPDD2 DCT2 )
P21 = 22.45 – Cav foul on rondo at Celtic court
P22 = 23.06 – Ray initiating fastbreak and drive but BAD defensive communication by the cav so lebron who was on Tony try to help but too late
P23 = 24.00 – lebron guard tony at FT line when Hickson foul Rasheed
P24 = 26.35 – Rondo pull up jump shot on west. When bron was on ft line with tony
P25 = 27.25 – Rondo get ball for yhe last shot but didn’t shoot in time
Q2 defense
38.00 – rondo get an outlet pass at rim attempt layup. Lebron follow try to catch up but too late. Rondo missed. Lebron get rebound ( Dreb1 Ndbx1 )
38.10 – Rondo get ball for the fast break lebron attempt steal at celtic half but fail. Rondo pass to KG to allen for 3pt ( PPD8 IPPD3 )
39.00 – rondo take ball up fast break. Lebron try to take a charge but get call BLOCKING FOUL at the rim ( PP3 IPP1 )
40.40 - Lebron follow Paul around off ball when ray miss a 3pt
42.08 – Rondo bring ball up in trasnsition nearly blow by Anthony so lebron come help but shaq foul rondo on weak side ( HPD3 )
44.10 – Lebron off ball on paul when Anthony foul rondo on drive
45.20 – Lebron recovery defense in transition but KG get an outlet pass at paint and Antawn is too slow to catch up so KG layup
46.38 – Lebron follow Paul offball then switch on rondo cause Paul screen Anthony. Rondo is force to pass to Paul who pump fake and miss a contested 2pt. lebron get Dreb ( PPD9 Dreb2 EP1 Ndbx2 )
47.46 – Lebron offball on paul then allen drive so bron attempt help but allen get ball stole before lebron come
48.20 – Lebron guard Paul at corner then come roam at post but rondo beat Anthony off dribble for a layup
49.30 – Lebron follow Paul around offball. Rondo BULLY Anthony off dribble and find KG for a long 2pt
50.00 – KG post up Antawn to paint so lebron come help and jump contest so KG decide to pass out pass to allen miss shot. Rondo try rebound but hit ball to lebron hand ( HPD4 EHPD2 PP4 EPP2 DCT3 DREB3 EP2 Ndbx3 )
50.40 – Paul get ball so bron attempt steal but fail. Bron recover and come on paul so paul pass out. Bron see KG open get ball so bron come help on KG so KG pass out to paul. Paul pass to rondo for a drive pass to davis for a foul ( PPD10 HPD5 )
52.15 – Rondo drive layup on fastbreak miss. Lebron boxout for rebound. Davis got Rebiund but ball hit out his hand in paint ( DBX2 PP5 EPP3 )
53.56 – Lebron switch on rondo so rondo pass back to paul. Paul drive floater on Anthony
54.50 – Paul drive on Anthony so bron and Vare come help contest. Paul bad pass TOV ( HPD6 EHPD3 DCT4 )
Q3 Defense
55.00 _ lebron with Paul in post area and switch on rondo in paint when KG post up for a score
55.48 – Paul get ball at 3pt line Lebron try close out get screen but get pass that for contest the shot ( DCT6 PPD11 EPPD3 )
56.10 – Bron on Paul but KG come screen so bron switch. KG get ball with lebron try to defend the post up. Lebron foul KG ( PP5 IPP2 )
58.30 – Bron on the post then grab the rebound ( Dreb4 Nbdx4 EP3 )
59.12 – Bron at elbow with PP
100.05 – Bron at wing with PP then KG get ball so Bron try to go help but KG get foul first
102.13 – Bron on ball guard against tony allen. Tony attempt drive but lebron pick up so he pass to KG and bron double KG then tony cut get ball but get ball knock out ( PPD12EPPD4 )
102.55 – Lebron roam at paint and Allen hit corner 3pt
103.15 – Bron guard rondo but get screen by KG. Lebron get pass screen and go double rondo in post area. Rondo bad pass to KG near TOV. Them Allen drive layup on antawn ( PPD13 HPD7 EHPD4 )
104.14 – Rondo get ball ft line lebron pick him up. Rondo pass
104.48 – Bron roam at post see allen drive to basket so Lebron try to close out but tony allen offensive foul
105.45 – lebron in post see rondo drive so he close out to contest and rondo missed ( PP6 DCT7 )
106.50 – Lebron switch offball between tony to rondo. Shaq block shot out bound ( Celtic ball )
107.20 – Lebrom in post with tony while KG miss shot but rondo rebound. Rondo drive on parker missed
108.10 – Tony cut get ball so lebron contest at paint with shaq help. Tony get foul on a pass ( PP7 EPP4 DCT8 ) ( celtic ball )
108.45 – Allem drive layup on parker
109.12 – Lebron roam around wing post allen miss shot then rondo got rebound pass to allen at rim who lebron jump block shot ( PP8 EPP5 DCT8 ) ( Celtic ball )
109.57 – Tony get ball so bron pick up. Tony pass out. Allen attempt shot then lebron get rebound near the line so pass back. Ball loses JUMP ball ( Dreb5 NDbx 5) ( Celtic win jump ball )
111.00 – Lebron boxout tony for rebound ( Dreb6 Dbx 3)
111.16 – tony attempt fast break drive but lebron attempt steal make him pass to KG. Bad communication by bron and Vare so rondo cut to basket get ball then lay up ( PPD14IPPD4 )
112.40 – Bron with tony in post see perkin cut so he go on perkin but perkin let pass fly to rondo. Lebron close out in paint area so rondo pass. Lebron swith on tony off ball then get rebound ( D.reb7 NDbx 6 EP4 )
113.10 – Lebron in paint with tony see rondo drive so he contest shot but foul rondo ( PP9 IPP3 DCT9 )
116.20 – Lebron at ft line then attempt help in paint but Vare foul first
117.58 – Bron with rondo at 3pt line when PP missed shot, rondo foul Antawn for FTA
Q4 Defense
119.30 – Lebron try defend fast break. Contest Tony at rim but tony pass to rondo for a bucket ( PP10 DCT10 )
120.45 – Bron on PP off ball. Rondo pass get deflected ( Celtic ball )
121.10 – Lebron deny room for PP to get the ball. Rondo missed contested 3pt
121.48 – Rondo try outlet fastbreak pass but TOV
122.20 – Davis get out let fastbreak pass. Lebron not fast enout to contest so davis mad layup
123.30 – Lebron help hickson on tony at corner then go back to PP. Tony drive layup on Hickson ( HPD8 )
123.56 – Rondo bounce pass to davis for layup when bron is near top keys
125.00 – tony fast break layup. Bron not close for contest
125.40 – Lebron tight guard PP on ball make him loses handle but Davis drive to get ball pass out. PP get ball and bron contest 3pt make him miss ( PPD15-16 EPPD5 DCT11 )
126.45 – PP get bron so ball guard tight. PP pass out. Davis get ball post up Antawn then bron come help take ball away ( PPD17 EPPD6 HPD9 EHPD5 )
127.34 – Rondo pull up on parker when Lebron was with PP at wing
128.07 – Rondo drive get ball stole by Parker. Bron get the ball then go fast break
129.37 – Bron g=fight for position near paint with Wallace, then Wallace try rebound but push out
131.00 – Bron roam at FT line when Wallace miss shot Vare rebound
131.30 – tony get bounce pass from rondo in paint so Lebron contest block shot but MO foul tony
133.10 – Lebron in post when allen miss shot and KG get rebound on the other post. KG post up lebron see Rondo open so he off ball close out. Tony get ball then make tough layup ( OBD1 EOBD1 )
134.30 – Rondo fast break layup miss. Lebron boxout with Perkin for rebound but perkin foul Bron (FD9 )
135.23 – Perkin get ball in post open force vare to close out leave KG open so bron pick him up off ball then switch on Tony when Vare come back on KG ( OBD2 ) ( CELTIC BALL losesd ball foul on Antawn )
136.15 – Lebron fight position with PP then follow him to corner. Vare intercept the pass but get foul fot FTA
137.20 – PP get ball so bron close out force to pass then bron follow PP around. Allen get ball drive get shot block but rondo get ball bounce pass to PP who cut back door to bron. Bron try contest but fail ( PP11 IPP4 DCT12 )
138.16 – Bron at post with PP when KG miss shot but ball fall in rondo hand who make the shot
141.40 – Perkin foul parker in transition
142.10 – Bron in post when allen shot 3pt miss
143.57 – Bron foul tony to get ball
146.03 – Mo fpoul rondo for ball
END

RESUME of LEBRON 2010 vs celtic Game 4
Total Possession of play when lebron was on the floor – 85

Playmaking
-DTOs ( Defender take out ) - 70
-EDTOs ( Extra defender taken out ) - 39
- ADAs ( Additional Defenders Affected ) - 11
-Double - 12
-Triple - 2
-Création - 17
~ R’Creation ( Rim ) - 7
- P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) - 10
-SC ( Screen ) - 2
- EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 9
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 20
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 5
- BB ( Bring ball up ) - 21
Scoring
-FGA - 18
-FGM - 7
-M ( midrange ) – 4 ( 2/4 )
-P ( Post shot ) – 1 ( 1/1 )
-R ( Rim : lay up / dunk ) – 8 ( 4/8 )
-T ( 3pt ) – 5 ( 0/5 )
-PB ( Putback ) - 0
-FTA - 11
- FTM - 8
-OCT ( Offensive Contest ) - 15
-OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested ) - 3
Rebound
-O-Reb ( offensive Rebound ) - 1
-*Obx ( Offensive Box Out for Oreb ) -0
-*Nobx ( Non offensive Boxout Oreb) - 1
- D-reb ( defensive Rebound ) - 7
- Dbx ( defensive box out for Dreb ) - 3
- Ndox ( non defensive box out ) – 6
- EP ( Empty paint ) - 4
Defense
-PPs ( Primary Protection ) - 12
- EPP - 5
- IPP - 4
- PPDs ( Primary Perimeter defendings ) - 17
– EPPD - 6
- IPPD - 4
- DCT ( Defensive contest ) - 12
- NDCT ( non contest ) - 0
- HPD ( help defense ) – 9
- EHPD – 5
- IHPD - 0
- OBD ( Offball defense against advantageous position ) – 2
- EOBD - 1
- IOBD - 0

That's Lebron. Now Jordan's two best series games..

Spoiler:

HI GUYS. This MJ Game 2 in 1991 final against LAKERS Offense only

Watch on YouTube

Playmaking
-DTOs ( Defender take out )
-EDTOs ( EXTRA defender taken out )
-Double
-Triple
- ADAs ( additional defender affected )
-Création ~ R’Creation ( Rim )/ P’Creation ( Prerimeter )
-SC ( Screen assist ) ( GHOST SCREEN DO NOT COUNT )
- EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
Scoring
-FGA
-FGM
-M ( midrange )
-P ( Post play )
-R ( Rim : lay up / dunk )
-T ( 3pt )
-PB ( Putback )
-FTA + FTM
-OCT ( Offensive Contest )
-OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested )
- FD ( Foul draw by defender )
( P - Possession. If your team get the Oreb or foul and your team get control of the ball it will be counted as same possession )
Q1
P’ 1 - 0:52 - MJ get the ball at 3ptline from Pipen then pass out to Paxson on top keys MJ run off ball to the paint. Paxson give back to pipen who pump fake for midrange missed. Grant get oreb pass to Pipen who pass to Paxson for a drive floater
P’ 2 - 1:40 - MJ brings ball up to top key then bill come screen. MJ drive nearly get double but foul Offensive offball ( BB1 )
P’ 3 - 2:30 - MJ gets ball on top keys, reset back to Pippen. Pippen drive see double pass back to MJ, MJ see Grant cutting off to the elbow and see defender not rotating sp he pass to Grant for a miss shot ( DTOs1 P’Creation1 RPDL1 )
P’ 4 - 2:54 - MJ bring ball up pass to Bill on the post. Then cut in paint but bill get double and foul ( BULLS ball ) ( BB2 )
P’ 4 -3.19 – MJ on shoer corner run out to 3pt line while Pipen make great pass for bill for a dunk
P’ 5 - 3:42 - MJ bring ball up Grant make ghost screen then roll to the paint and Bill come set another screen so there 2 defender facing MJ leaving Grant open on right wing. So MJ pass to Grant for basket. (BB3 DTO2-3 ADAs1 R’Creation1 RPDL2 )
P’ 6 - 4:14 - MJ bring ball up to the corner so Grant come make soft screen then back in paint so MJ get double, pass to Grant but bad pass TOV ( BB4 Double1 BPDL1 )
P’ 7 - 4:25 – Pipen steal in transition pass to MJ at half court who pass drive to FT line and pass to Bill in paint ( DTOs4 R’Creation2 RPDL3 )
P’ 8 - 5:52 - MJ Move off ball to top keys and get the ball from Grant, backing down Scott and shoot a fade away ( FGA1 FGM1 M1 OCT1 )
P’ 9 - 6:25 - MJ outlet pass to Paxson in transition and he get ball back on top of key. See Pipen cut to the rim so He try a lob pass ( Too low ) so pipen Missed but Bill Clean up
P’ 10 - 8:17 -MJ get ball at 3pt line get double ao he dribble around then pass to Grant in Paont for a lay up ( Double2 DTO5-6 EDTOs1 EPDL1 R’Creation3 )
P’ 11 - 10:20 - MJ get ball see Bill posting so he pass and let bill Create FAIL
P’ 12 - 11:05 – MJ Bring ball up pass to pipen top keys then off ball screen for Paxson but too late so paxson defender stay tight. MJ on post when paxson create and pass to Grant ( BB5 )
P’ 13 - 11:48 - MJ bring ball up pass to Paxson in transition for a 3pt ( BB6 DTOs7 RPDL4 )
P’ 14 - 12:14 - MJ get ball from pipen and pass to paxson top keys. Paxson pass to pipen who post drive split thru double for layup
P’ 15 - 14:20 - MJ bring ball up pass to cliff then run off ball around to the paint ( BB7 )
P’ 16 - 14:57 - MJ brings ball to the elbow see double team coming so he pass to bill for layup. ( DTOs8-9 EDTOs2 R’Creation4 RPDL5)
P’ 17 - 16:20 - MJ bring ball up and drive get double in the post with another defender in his lane so he pass to Bill ( BAD PASS Could be Creation ). Bill pass to pipen for midrange Missed. MJ get Oreb try a midrange MISSED ( BB8 Double3 DTOs8-9-10 EDTOs2 ADAs2 BPDL2 FGA2 M2 OCT2 )
P’ 18 - 17:14 - MJ brings ball up Bill screen and POP at the FT line while MJ dribble to elbow and pass to Grant in paint. ( BB9 DTOs10-11 EDTOs3 RPDL6 )
P’ 19 - 18:00 - MJ get ball pass to bill who try post up but TOV
P’ 20 - 18:20 - MJ bring ball up, pass to Pippen on top keys then cut to the other side Post ( BB10 )
Q2
P’ 21 - 27:48 – MJ post up off ball try to get the ball but get intercepted ( BULLS ball )
P’ 21 -28.10 - MJ on short corner posting off ball then he get the ball Magic come double so MJ pass to cutting BJ who missed layup ( Double4 DTOs12-13 EDTOs4 RPDL7 )
P 22 – 29.34 – MJ get ball then pass to Pippen to create
P’ 23 - 30:10 - MJ on top of key, pass to Armstrong. Get ball back and try a 3pt MISSED ( FGA3 T1 OCT3 )
P’ 24 - 31:29 - MJ drives see 2 extra defender on the lane with one of them being screen by Bill so he kick to paxson for 3pt ( DTOs14-15-16 EDTOs5 ADAs3 P’Creation2 RPDL8 )
P’ 25 - 31:57 – Grant steal pass to MJ in transition MJ bullet pass thru magic for Grant who loses the ball ( DTOs17 RPDL9 )
P’ 26 - 32:14 - MJ Bring ball up pass to paxson and cut in paint but decide to go off at 3pt. pipen get double pass op wide open MJ who drive lay up ( BB11 FGA4 R1 FGM2 OCT4 )
P’ 27 - 32:50 - Pippen bounce pass to MJ in transion for open lay uo ( FGA5 FGM3 R2 OUCT1 )
P’ 28 - 33:46 - Bill handoff to MJ, drive then pull-up at FT line for basket. ( FGA6 M3 FGM4 OCT5 )
P’ 29 - 35:14 - Grant to MJ near elbow, MJ then drive post up a bit then spin move for a shot. ( FGA7 FGM5 P1 OUCT2 )
P’ 30 - 36:15 - MJ bring ball up then pass to pipen top keys. Pippen pass to bill for a shot missed ( BB12 )
P’ 31 - 36:52 - MJ bring ball up pass to Pippen who fake drive bring 3 defender on him and pass to paxson
P’ 32 - 38:35 – Mj bring ball up from inbound reset with paxson then post up scoot fake shot bring AC green to come contest so MJ pass to grant for open dunk ( BB13 DTOs18-19 EDTOs6 EPDL2 R’Creation5 )
Q3
P’ 32 - 40:32 - MJ bring ball up in transition bullet pass to Paxson. Mj get it back give to bill to create for himself at post
P’ 33 - 41:00 – MJ at the elbow off ball when Pippen get the ball and pass to grant for layup
P’ 34 – 41.27 – Pippen bring ball up pass to MJ. MJ pass to Grant posting then cut in paint
P’ 35 - 41:56 - MJ pass to Pippen fastbreak but Pippen travel
P’36 - 43.06 – MJ in the corner when PIPPEN work in the paint
P’ 37 - 43:42 – MJ bring ball drive kick to Grant open at 3pt :NONE CREATION cause Grant isn’t a shooter so they willing to leave him open there ( BB14 DTOs20-21 EDTOs7 RPDL10 )
P’ 38 - 44:13 – MJ get ball pass back to PIPPEN then cut to the other side on the elbow. He get the ball for a jumper ( FGA8 FGM6 M4 OCT7 )
P’ 39 - 44:38 – MJ bring ball up fast break bounce pass to Pippen who gets fouled. ( BB15 DTOs22-23 EDTOs8 EPDL3 R’Creation6 ) ( BULLS ball with FT )
P39 – 46.09 – MJ posting get foul. Next play Paxson bouce pass to Bill for a dunk ( FD1 )
P’ 40 – 47.50 - MJ Bring ball up pass to Paxson. Get ball back pump fake drive lay up ( BB16 FGA9 FGM7 R3 OCT8 )
P’ 41 - 48:14 - MJ bring ball up pass to Bill in post ( BB17 )
P’ 42 - 48:50 - MJ get ball half court drive pull up mid range ( FGA10 FGM8 M5 OCT9 )
P’ 43 - 49:56 – MJ off ball cut to post get the ball and get doubled in post, fake shot and pass to paxson shoot ( DTOs24-25 EDTOs9 P’Creation3 Double5 EPDL4 )
P’ 44- 50:50 - MJ get ball at post and hit a turnaround fade away ( FGA11 FGM9 P2 OCT10 )
P’ 45 - 52:04 - MJ bringing ball up Blow by paxson for a pull up and ONE ( BB18 FGA12 FGM10 M6 OUCT2 FD2 FTA1 FTM1 )
P’ 46 - 59:23 - MJ Cut off ball around the court and get ball at elbow drive post up get double and with anoth defender on weak side he pass to paxson for long 2pt ( Double6 EDTOs26-27-28 EDTOs10-11 P’Creation4 EPDL5 )
P’ 47 - 1:00:41 - MJ recieves ball in low-post GET FOUL ( FD3 FTA2-3 FTM2 ) ( Pippen Oreb Bull ball )
P’47 - 101.40 -MJ gets ball from top of key and drive split defender for a lay up ( FGA13 FGM11 R4 OCT11 )
P’ 48 - 1:02:46 - MJ get ball on wing drive see double team so he jump pass to open pippen for a lay up ( DTOs29-30-31 EDTOs12 ADAs4 P’Creation5 RPDL11 )
Q4
P’ 49 - 1:04:43 - MJ get ball in the post get double pass to Grant cutting but sam perkins was in the paints to catch grant to deny his shot ( Double6 DTOs32-33 EDTOs13 RPDL12 )
P’50 - 104.57 – Pippen get Dreb and run the fastbreak with Grant. Pippen attempt drive but missed the layup
P’ 51 - 1:06:54 - MJ brings ball up drive to elbow side step midrange ( BB19 FGA14 FGM12 M7 OCT12 )
P’ 52 - 1:08:16 - MJ brings ball up, dribbles around the top keys and FT line but get FOUL CALL WITH illegal defense ( BB20 FD4 FTA4 FTM3 ) ( Bull ball )
P’ 52 -110.00 - Pippen finds MJ, dribbles to short corner then pull up midrange ( FGA15 FGM13 M8 OCT13 )
P’ 53 - 1:10:35 - Michael brings it up then lop to pippen. ( BB21 DTOs34 R’Creation7 EPDL6 )
P’ 54 - 1:11:16 - MJ reset ball with pippen on top keys then post up bring 3 defender around so he jump pass to open Pippen ( DTOs35-36-37 EDTOs14-15 P’Creation6 RPDL13 )
P’ 55 - 1:11:53 - MJ bring up the ball to top keys then pass to grant. Grant drive pass back to Jordan. So Jordan drive and layup ( BB22 FGA16 FGM14 R5 5OUCT3 )
P’ 56 - 1:14:03 - MJ on top of key, get the ball then go post up. Spin move fade but MISSED ( FGA17 P3 OCT14 )
P’ 57 - 1:15:34 – PIPPEN bring ball up pass to MJ half court MJ rest with pippen. MJ get double top keys pass back to Pippen. Pippen attempt drive see double so kick to MJ who drive pull up from FT line ( Double 7 FGA18 FGM15 M9 OCT 15 )
P’ 58 - 1:16:16 - MJ get ball at logo dribble to top keys wit hmagic on him. Worthy come help so MJ pass to open pippen at 3pt line cause bad rotation by divac who choose to close the paint instead on roaming near pippen. Bad pass from MJ make Pippen loses time to get the ball and Pippen drive TOV ( DTOs38-39 EDTOs16 BPDL3 )
P’ 59 - 1:17:00 - MJ finds wide open Grant in corner. Grant get double pass to pippen for a shot
P’ 60 - 1:17:40 - MJ get the ball at the logo then get double. He pullet pass to Grant at the rim for a pump fake and dunk ( Double8 DTOs40-41 EDTOs17 R’Creation8 EPDL7 )
P’ 61 - 1:17:59 – Bulls stole the ball. Pippen pass to MJ. Mj pass back and go to wing 3pt line. Pippen pump fake drive layup

RESUME Game 2 MJ 1991 offensively
Total Possession when MJ was in the floor – 61
Total Possession of play MJ have action both on/off ball – 58
Total Possession of play MJ didn’t affect or didn’t have the opportunity to affect – 3
Playmaking
-DTOs - 41
-EDTOs – 17
- ADAs – 4
-Double - 8
-Triple - 0
-Création - 14
~ R’Creation ( Rim ) - 8
- P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) - 6
-SC ( Screen ) - 0
- EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 7
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 13
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 3
- BB ( Bring ball up ) - 22
Scoring
-FGA - 18
-FGM - 15
-M ( midrange ) – 9 ( 8/9 )
-P ( Post play ) – 3 ( 2/3 )
-R ( Rim : lay up / dunk ) – 5 ( 5/5 )
-T ( 3pt ) – 1 ( 0/1 )
-PB ( Putback ) – 0
-FTA - 4
+ FTM – 3
-OCT ( Offensive Contest ) - 15
-OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested ) - 3
- FD ( Foul draw by defender ) - 4

Spoiler:

In this game, we see how good Jordan is on both ends of the floor, as this is his peak season.

This is also for something newer, tracking how Jordan did in isolation as scorer on-ball. Also how much they initiated the play (by bringing ball up, to start it off, or outlet pass, stealing ball to initiate transition play, etc), also how they did in tough coverage (doubled or tripled).
Reason for doing this is due to elpolo_14 mentioning how Jordan had these advantages here (Will track Steph later to compare): viewtopic.php?p=118963162#p118963162

Game link -

Watch on YouTube

Here is what we will be tracking:
Playmaking -
-DTOs ( Defender taken out)
-EDTOs ( Extra defender taken out )
-Double
BB ( BRING Ball up )
-Création ~ R’Creation ( Rim )/ P’Creation ( Prerimeter )
-SC ( Screen assist ) ( GHOST SCREEN DO NOT COUNT )
EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
Scoring -
-M (mid-range)
-P (post play)
-R (rim)
-T (3pt)
-PB (putback)
OCT (offensive contested)
OUCT (offensive uncontested)
FD (foul drawn )
Offensive rebounding -
OBX (offensue boxout)
NOBX (non offensive boxout)

Defense -
-PPs – EPP/IPP ( Primary Protection ) ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- PPDs – EPPD/IPPD ( Primary Perimeter defendings ) ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- DCT ( Defensive contest )
- NDCT ( non contest )
- HPD ( help defense ) – EHPD/IHPD ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
DBX (defensive boxout)
NDBX (non-defensive boxout)

For in iso: ISO M 1/1 as example
For in tough coverage: Doubled 1 DTO
For play initiator: IN


Offense -

Possession 1 - 1:46 - Jordan finds ball top of key, to Pippen driving to draw foul.
Possession 2 - 3:20 - Pippen initiate play by bringing ball up, to Jordan right wing, draw two defenders, pass to Cartwright, and back, Jordan pass to Cartwright making fadeaway. (Jordan doubled 2 DTOs, 1 EDTO. Jordan - 3 DTOs, 1 EDTO, 1 creation,1x doubled, 1 RPDL)
Possession 3 - 3:50 - Pippen again initiate ball and Jordan scores deep mid-range jumper. (Jordan ISO 1/1 M. Jordan - 1/1 M)
Possession 4 - 4:24 - Pippen pass to Jordan after bringing ball up, ball to Paxson to Grant, Jordan finds himself open losing his man off-ball, but Grant bad decision making. (Jordan - 4 DTOs)
Possession 5 - 4:58 - Jordan misses wide-open one legged jumper from the corner. (Jordan - 1/2 M)
Possession 6 - 5:17 - Jordan with ball in half-court, gets a pass to Cartwright missing a one-handed shot . (Jordan - 6 DTOs, 2 EDTOs, 2 RPDL)
Possession 7 - 5:31 - Jordan initiate offense with ball brought up, handoff to Paxson, moves down to elbow,, as Magic header into out of bounds. (Jordan - 1 BB, 1 IN)
Possession 8 - 6:29 - Jordan bring up ball initiating offense, pass to Pippen. (Jordan - 2 BB, 2 IN)
Possession 9 - 6:54 - As Grant gets pass Jordan cuts behind him, Jordan in ISO misses semi-open mid range shot. (Jordan ISO 1/2 M. Jordan - 1/3 M).
Possession 10 - 7:13 - Jordan bring up ball to initiate offense, nice hezi top of key to beat his man blow by to get a nice dunk. (Jordan - 3 BB, 3 IN, 1/1 R, 7 DTOs)
Possession 11 - 7:37 - Jordan gets ball on left wing, post-up and draws foul. Jordan makes 1 FT. (Jordan ISO 1 FD. Jordan - 1 FD)
Possession 12 - 10:18 - Jordan finds ball in left wing moving out, beats his man with blow by for another dunk. (Jordan ISO 1/1 R, Jordan - 2/2 R, 8 DTOs)
Possession 13 - 10:52 - Jordan finds ball in key, goes through a crowded paint missing, shot, boxes out for the rebound, and separates himself to make a close mid-range shot. (Jordan - 2x doubled, 2/3 R, 2/4 M, 1 OBX)
Possession 14 - 11:10 - Jordan gets ball on logo, goes to right elbow doubled pass to Cartwight losing it. Jordan heads back to top of key where Grant gives it to him, Jordan finds Pippen in tight window, who gets a dunk. (Jordan doubled 4 DTOs, 2 EDTOs. Jordan - 2 creation, 1 BPDL, 3 RPDL, 3x doubled, 11 DTOs, 3 EDTOs)
Possession 15 - 11:47 - Jordan gets ball in half-court, good pass delivery to Pippen but shot blocked.
Jordan then gets ball in left wing, with DIvac on him and then switch, Jordan with pass mid-air to Paxson who hits the shot. (Jordan - 3 creation, 1 EPDL, 12 DTOs)
Possession 16 - 13:37 - Jordan initiate offense with deep pass to Pippen. (Jordan - 4 IN)
Possession 17 - 14:43 - Jordan in transition gets ball from Pippen, goes in strong for a dunk. (Jordan -3/4 R)
Possession 18 - 16:36 - Jordan bring up ball pass to Pippen going up and around his man for layup. (Jordan - 5 IN, 4 BB, 4 creation, 4 RPDL)
Possession 19 - 17:35 - Jordan gets ball, move around to hit mid-range shot in ISO. (Jordan ISO 2/3 M, Jordan - 3/5 M)
Possession 20 - 19:20 - Jordan initiate offense, goes on ISO vs Scott and makes another mid-range jumper. (Jordan ISO 3/4 M. Jordan - 6 IN, 5 BB, 4/6 M)
Possession 21 - 19:49 - Jordan brings up ball, double teamed and great pass to inside to Grant making easy layup. (Jordan doubled 6 DTOs 3 EDTOs. Jordan - 5 creation, 2 EPDL, 14 DTOs, 4 EDTOs, 5x doubled)
START OF 2Q
Possession 22 - 21:15 - Jordan bring up ball, ball to Levingston as he finds himself open for ball by Hopson. He misses a mid-range shot. (Jordan ISO 3/5 M. Jordan - 7 IN, 6 BB, 4/7 M)
Possession 23 - 22:39 - Jordan gets ball left wing, drive stopped by Divac, tries to make a hezi but commits turnover as Divac steals ball from him.
Possession 24 - 23:22 - Jordan gets ball on top of key, post up his man, as triple team come he pass to Perdue for the dunk. (Jordan doubled 9 DTOs 5 EDTOs. Jordan - 6 creation, 5 RPDL, 17 DTOs, 6 EDTOs, 6x doubled)
Possession 25 - 23:55 - Jordan brings ball up, pass to Levingston, and to Cartwright for missed 3. (Jordan - 8 IN, 7 BB)
Possession 26 - 24:22 - Jordan brings ball up and makes bad pass for turnover. (Jordan - 9 IN, 8 BB, 2 BPDL)
Possession 27 - 25:43 - Jordan brings ball up, pass to Craig who scores clean mid-range. (Jordan - 10 IN, 9 BB, 7 creation, 19 DTOs, 7 EDTOs)
Possession 28 - 26:37 - Jordan brings ball up again, tries to get into paint, but bad pass by Jordan knocked away. (Jordan doubled 11 DTOs 6 EDTOs. Jordan - 11 IN, 10 BB, 21 DTOs, 8 EDTOs, 3 BPDL, 7x doubled)
Possession 29 - 27:31 - Jordan brings ball up to start transition play, he can't decelerate and commits turnover. (Jordan - 12 IN, 11 BB)
28:03 - Jordan off
33:49 - Jordan on
Possession 30 - 34:30 - Jordan gets ball from Pippen, pass to Pippen trying to find his way inside, comes back to find ball, pass mid-air to B.J, to Pippen missing tough shot.
Possession 31 - 36:29 - Jordan finds himself open for a low post turnaround fadeaway with the foul drawn. Jordan makes 1 FT.(Jordan - 0/1 P, 2 FD)
Possession 32 - 39:33 - Jordan gets ball in transition, pass back to B.J, and back to Jordan for wide open dunk for 2 on 1 play. (Jordan - 4/5 R)
Possession 33 - 40:10 - Jordan gets ball on left wing, hezi and loses ball tipped away 1 on 1.
Possession 34 - 42:11 - Jordan brings up ball, gets into key and pass to Armstrong missing wide open 3. (Jordan - 13 IN, 12 BB, 8 creation, 23 DTOs, 9 EDTOs, 5 RPDL)
Possession 35 - 44:15 - Jordan brings up ball, pass it to Armstrong hitting 3 over Magic. (Jordan - 14 IN, 13 BB, 9 creation, 24 DTOs, 6 RPDL)
Possession 36 - 46:40 - Jordan hand-off to Pippen in Lakers side of court.
START OF 3Q
Possession 37 - 50:25 - Jordan doubled on right block, gets to the elbow and draws a foul. Jordan makes both FTs. (Jordan - 3 FD)
Possession 38 - 51:47 - Jordan on top of key, gets doubled then pass to Grant who misses shot. (Jordan doubled 13 DTOs 7 EDTOs. Jordan - 26 DTOs, 10 EDTOs, 7 RPDL, 8x doubled)
Possession 39 - 52:06 - Jordan bring up ball to left wing, passing to Cartwright in the corner for a 3. (Jordan - 28 DTOs, 11 EDTOs, 10 creation, 8 RPDL)
Possession 40 - 53:32 - Jordan misses a pull-up jumper. (Jordan - 4/8 M)
Possession 41 - 53:59 - Jordan bring up ball, two men switch onto him multiple time, he goes up for layup and pass to Paxson. Then Jordan boxout for offensive rebound for Grant putback. (Jordan - 15 IN, 14 BB, 2 OBX)
Possession 42 - 55:38 - Jordan post up, doubled and to Pippen, who miss shot. (Jordan doubled 15 DTOs 8 EDTOs. Jordan - 30 DTOs, 12 EDTOs, 11 creation, 3 EPDL, 9x doubled)
Possession 43 - 56:07 - Jordan bring up ball, hezi at the top of the key, doubled and passes to Paxson for a missed 3. (Jordan doubled 17 DTOs 9 EDTOs. Jordan - 32 DTOS, 13 EDTOs, 12 creation, 9 RPDL, 12 creation, 10x doubled)
Possession 44 - 56:30 - Jordan ball top of key, pass to Paxson.
Possession 45 - 57:09 - Jordan bring up ball, pass to Cartwright and back, gets to top of key with window pass to Pippen. Then, Jordan gets ball and doubled, to Paxson, to Pippen getting ball for dunk. (Jordan doubled 19 DTOs 10 EDTOs. Jordan - 36 DTOs, 15 EDTOs, 10 RPDL, 4 EPDL, 11x doubled, 16 IN, 15 BB)
Possession 46 - 59:08 - Jordan brings up ball, gets to corner pass to Cartwight moves to left wing as Pippen gets it to Jordan. Jordan hits a 3 pointer in iso. (Jordan ISO 1/1 T. Jordan - 17 IN, 16 BB, 1/1 T)
Possession 47 - 59:47 - Jordan brings up ball drives in crowded area and gets turnover. (Jordan - 18 IN, 17 BB)
Possession 48 - 1:00:38 - Jordan gets into post, shot blocked by Divac.
1:01:20 - Jordan off
1:08:10 - Jordan on
Possession 49 - 1:08:27 - Jordan brings up ball, handoff to Paxson, then back to Jordan as he kicks it to Paxson on the corner, he bricks. (Jordan - 19 IN, 18 BB)
START OF 4Q
Possession 50 - 1:13:23 - Jordan gets ball spins and hits post shot in the middle. (Jordan - 1/2 P)
Possession 51 - 1:13:55 - Jordan using his off-ball movement to get out of double, he gets inside and handoff to Levingston making shot. (Jordan - 13 creation, 11 RPDL)
Possession 52 - 1:14:16 - Jordan in transition starts it off passes to Armstrong going hard for the layup. (Jordan - 14 creation, 12 RPDL, 37 DTOs, 20 IN)
Possession 53 - 1:15:52 - Jordan brings up ball, gets into isolation and makes a mid-range shot. (Jordan ISO 4/6 M. Jordan - 21 IN, 19 BB, 5/9 M)
Possession 54 - 1:16:24 - Jordan brings up ball makes a mid-range shot in transition. (Jordan - 22 IN, 20 BB, 6/10 M)
Possession 55 - 1:17:23 - Jordan brings up ball, gets into the right corner and makes a pass. (Jordan - 23 IN, 21 BB)
Possession 56 - 1:18:12 - Jordan brings up ball, draws foul in the key. Then Jordan gets ball in key, pulls-up mid-range and miss, gets ball back to him, gets to the block and draws another foul. Jordan then looks for ball in left elbow, drives and gets blocked by Divac. (Jordan - 5 FD, 6/11 M)
Possession 57 - 1:20:50 - Jordan gets ball from Pippen on log, makes mid-range jumper. (Jordan - 7/12 M)
Possession 58 - 1:21:18 - Jordan bring up ball, pass to Pippen getting it to B.J with bad pass delivery. (Jordan - 24 IN, 22 BB)
Possession 59 - 1:21:42 - Jordan bring up ball, pass to Hodges and he misses. (Jordan - 25 IN, 23 BB, 15 creation, 39 DTOs, 16 EDTOs)
Possession 60 - 1:23:00 - Jordan gets in paint tripled, finger roll pass to Grant going for easy dunk. (Jordan doubled 22 DTOs 12 EDTOs. Jordan - 16 creation, 42 DTOs, 18 EDTOs, 12x doubled)
Possession 61 - 1:23:40 - Jordan gets ball and plays 1v1 vs Scott, with hezi in short corner, makes short fadeaway in post. Jordan makes his FT. (Jordan ISO 1/1 P, 2 FD. Jordan - 6 FD, 2/3 P)
Possession 62 - 1:25:56 - Jordan gets ball left wing, drive and pass to Paxson and he misses. (Jordan - 17 creation, 44 DTOs, 19 EDTOs)
Possession 63 - 1:27:30 - Jordan gets ball and drive from the corner, misses reverse layup fouled. Jordan makes both FTs. (Jordan - 7 FD, 3/5 R)
Possession 64 - 1:31:02 - Jordan doubled gets ball top of key pass to Paxson missing a shot. (Jordan doubled 24 DTOs 13 EDTOs. Jordan - 18 creation, 46 DTOs, 20 EDTOs, 13x doubled)
Possession 65 - 1:34:57 - Jordan gets ball, again in iso with Scott, he misses mid-range. (Jordan ISO 4/7 M. Jordan - 7/13 M)
Possession 66 - 1:43:13 - Jordan gets ball and drives bounces ball of a Laker leg. Then, Jordan gets ball inbounded to him left wing, crossover, and Jordan misses another game winning shot. (Jordan ISO 4/8 M. Jordan - 7/14 M)
END OF GAME

Final tally -
In ISO: 4/8 M, 1/1 T, 1/1 P, 1/1 R
In tough coverage: 24 DTOs, 13 EDTOs
Initiating possession count: 25

Scoring:
7/14 M
2/3 P
1/1 T
3/5 R
7 FD

Playmaking:
18 creation
46 DTOs
20 EDTOs
13x doubled
15 RPDL
5 EPDL
3 BPDL

Ball-handling and offensive rebounding:
3 OBX
23 BB





Defense -
Possession 1 - 0:55 - Jordan on Magic top of key, gets past screen, Magic pass to Perkins as Jordan is roaming.
Then, Jordan facing Magic who post-up, no-look pass to Worthy who easily makes layup over Jordan. (Jordan - 1 PP, 1 IPP, 1 NDCT)
Possession 2 - 3:05 - Jordan on Magic, who pass to Divac as he roams again looking for steal.
Possession 3 - 3:40 - Magic running bringing ball up to right wing, gets ball to Worthy missing post shot.
Possession 4 - 4:04 - Magic bring up ball to top of key, pass to Scott, as Jordan falls into the paint.
Possession 5 - 4:40 - Jordan not on Magic off-ball advantageous position, so he leaves Magic for open 3 missed. (Jordan - 1 PPD, 1 IPPD, 2 NDCT)
Possession 6 - 5:02 - Jordan on Magic, passing to Worthy airballing with Jordan ball-watching.
Possession 7 - 7:27 - Jordan picks up Magic at half-court, Magic finds open window to Worthy.
Possession 8 - 10:00 - Jordan on Magic who pass to Perkins, taking out 3-4 defenders as Worthy hits his shot, while Jordan walk to rim.
Possession 9 - 10:30 - Jordan on Magic in right wing, jumps for pass-fake, passing to Perkins, as he walks into key, ball-watching. (Jordan - 2 PPD)
Possession 10 - 11:10 - Jordan picks up Magic, who gets it to Perkins as Jordan heads to the key, as Perkins hits a fadeaway.
Possession 11 - 12:23 - Jordan on Magic in half-court, and to Perkins, follows Magic to weakside, stonewalls him, gets some help, as Magic hits nice open pass to Perkins for 3. (Jordan - 3 PPD)
Possession 12 - 13:19 - Worthy misses contested fadeaway over Jordan, then Jordan doesn't contest DIvac after he gets rebound off of missed shots, and he stays in paint as Perkins makes jumper mid range. (Jordan - 4 PPD, 1 EPPD, 2 PP, 2 IPP, 1 DCT, 3 NDCT)
Possession 13 - 14:18 - Jordan on Magic top of key, pass deflected by Paxson.
Possession 14 - 14:59 - Jordan on Magic again as he gets past screen. Magic pass to Perkins who draws the foul.
Possession 15 - 16:15 - Jordan on Magic top of key, to Perkins as Jordan follows Magic. Magic goes into the middle missing the hook-shot over Jordan non-contest. (Jordan - 3 PP, 4 NDCT)
Possession 16 - 16:45 - Magic bring up ball with Jordan on him, Magic draws foul in paint. (Jordan - 4 PP, 3 IPP)
Possession 17 - 17:48 - Magic bring up ball, Jordan on him, to Perkins and back, back to Perkins as Jordan move inside, Grant gets loose ball foul. Jordan gets board. (Jordan - 1 NDBX)
Possession 18 - 19:30 - Magic on Jordan, and as defender goes to double him he makes a good read to Perkins for a 3.
START OF 2Q
Possession 19 - 21:43 - Jordan pump faked by Divac, his teammate covers for him, and he fouls Divac (not Jordan) (Jordan - 5 PP, 4 IPP, 1 HPD, 1 IHPD)
Possession 20 - 22:58 - Jordan on Magic, pass to Worthy as Jordan ball-watches, Worthy fakes out his man to get a shot off.
Possession 21 - 23:47 - Jordan on Magic, Magic pass to Worthy, Jordan here goes for block but faked out for drive, Worthy makes shot from deep post. (Jordan - 5 PPD, 2 IPPD, 2 DCT)
Possession 22 - 24:15 - Worthy gets ball, blows by Jordan for layup. (Jordan - 6 PPD, 3 IPPD)
Possession 23 - 24:23 - Jordan picks up Magic on the perimeter, Magic hits a no-look pass to Worthy who misses.
Possession 24 - 26:01 - Jordan on Magic, then passes to Worthy who loses ball as it slips.
Possession 25 - 27:15 - Jordan on Magic again, pass to Worthy missing turnaround fadeaway, Jordan gets rebound non-boxout. (Jordan - 2 NDBX)
28:03 - Jordan off
33:49 - Jordan on
Possession 26 - 35:06 - Jordan on Magic, pass to Worthy getting blocked by Levingston.
Possession 27 - 35:27 - Jordan goes inside to gamble for block, but it was a pass by Magic. Jordan follows Magic around, but he drives with his teammates covering for him. (Jordan - 6 PP, 5 IPP, 3 DCT)
Possession 28 - 38:38 - Jordan full-court press onto Magic but he passes and rotates onto Divac off-ball, Divac back to Magic, Magic drives with Jordan there and he gets it to Divac, to Magic as Pippen blocks him.
Possession 29 - 39:48 - Jordan on Magic top of key, he passes to Drew and back, to Wrthy, to Divac going inside for layup.
Possession 30 - 40:15 - Jordan on Magic with deep pass, to Scott as Jordan ball-watches.
Possession 31 - 42:10 - Jordan gets uncontested rebound. (Jordan - 3 NDBX)
Possession 32 - 42:24 - Jordan gets blown by Magic, covered by his teammates and TO commited. (Jordan - 7 PPD, 4 IPPD)
Possession 33 - 42:48 - Jordan on Magic bringing up ball, pass to Perkins, Jordan tries denying Magic ball as he gets it, pass to Worthy missing, Jordan with help defense on Scott. (Jordan - 8 PPD, 2 EPPD, 2 HPD)
Possession 34 - 44:50 - Jordan on Magic instantly drawing the foul after turnaround. (Jordan - 9 PPD, 5 IPPD)
Possession 35 - 49:00 - Jordan gets a steal off Magic full-court outlet at end of 2nd quarter. (Jordan - 10 PPD, 3 EPPD)
START OF 3Q
Possession 36 - 51:17 - Jordan full-court press Magic then get back to following Magic to top of key, pass to Cooper.
Possession 37 - 52:00 - Jordan lets Divac go in for an easy layup, assisted by Magic. (Jordan - 7 PP, 6 IPP, 5 NDCT)
Possession 28 - 52:24 - Jordan fronts Magic, pass to Scott who draws the foul.
Possession 29 - 53:37 - Jordan on Magic, pass to Worthy and back, Magic pass back to Worthy.
Possession 30 - 54:29 - Jordan on Magic looking for post-up, as he is doubled pass to Divac, and back, back to Divac who draws a foul.
Possession 31 - 55:53 - Jordan on Magic, to Worthy and to Divac who Pippen denies ball.
Possession 32 - 56:16 - Jordan block off of Perkins, and then Worthy makes easy layup over Jordan. (Jordan - 8 PP, 1 EPP, 6 NDCT)
Possession 33 - 56:53 - Jordan on Magic, pass to Perkins and back, he backs down Jordan and finds Divac but pass hit rim, Jordan gets ball. (Jordan - 4 NDBX)
Possession 34 - 58:33 - Jordan on Magic top of key, passing to Cooper and Jordan switching onto Worthy off-ball, Worthy gets it and pass to Magic making shot clock buzzer.
Possession 35 - 59:30 - Jordan on Magic backing him down, he gets help and then he pass to Perkins who misses open 3.
1:01:20 - Jordan off
1:08:10 - Jordan on
Possession 36 - 1:08:35 - Jordan holds Magic as he goes in transition getting a foul. Continuing, Magic gets inbounded ball, Jordan gets help and doesn't contest Magic for 3 as he hits one when shot clock winded down. (Jordan - 12 PPD, 7 IPPD, 3 HPD, 2 IHPD, 6 NDCT)
START OF 4Q
Possession 37 - 1:11:38 - Jordan gambling going for steal from pass, Perkins fouled as Pippen covers for Jordan. (Jordan - 9 PP, 7 IPP)
Possession 38 - 1:13:40 - Teagle gets ball and catch and shoots, Jordan couldn't get in time to contest. (Jordan - 13 PPD)
Possession 39 - 1:14:13 - Jordan collapsing onto Divac with 3 of his teammates, steals it from Divac initiating transition. (Jordan - 10 PP, 2 EPP, 4 HPD, 1 EHPD)
Possession 40 - 1:15:42 - Jordan on Magic, he passes to Perkins, Jordan gets rebound. (Jordan - 5 NDBX)
Possession 41 - 1:16:04 - Jordan on Magic with overhead pass to Perkins missing the shot.
Possession 42 - 1:16:34 - Jordan on Magic posting him up, gets help and Magic goes for hook to middle with Jordan fouling. (Jordan - 14 PPD, 8 IPPD)
Possession 43 - 1:20:57 - Jordan on Magic with pass to Worthy off of spin to make layup.
Possession 44 - 1:21:40 - Jordan gets board. (Jordan - 6 NDBX)
Possession 45 - 1:21:54 - Jordan gets posted up by Magic, fouls him (Jordan - 11 PP, 8 IPP)
Possession 46 - 1:25:24 - Jordan on Magic helping Pippen swarming him as he passes. (Jordan - 15 PPD, 4 EPPD, 5 HPD, 2 EHPD)
Possession 47 - 1:26:10 - Jordan helped with Pippen and he passes out. Jordan follows Magic around and he passes to open man for 3. (Jordan - 16 PPD)
Possession 48 - 1:28:50 - Jordan on Magic, this time not walled with Pippen's help.
Possession 49 - 1:32:08 - Jordan on Magic, he passes and Jordan follows Magic around, this time on opposite wing, overhead pass to Perkins who is fouled and1.
Possession 50 - 1:40:09 - Jordan on Magic, gets help as he passes to Perkins making the open 3 late in game.
END OF GAME

Final tally
16 PPD
4 EPPD
8 IPPD

11 PP
8 IPP
2 EPP

5 HPD
2 EHPD
2 IHPD

5 NDBX
70 possessions available

Hobbled Lebron in his 2nd worst series game was better than Jordan in his best series of the year in his 2 best games. You can make up all the excuses you want to, but it won't change how that peak Lebron was better than peak Jordan.

I’m going to be real with you…If you think 2010 LeBron performed better in game 4 against the Celtics than 1991 MJ did in games 1-2 of the finals then that’s a very damning indictment of your methodology and overall process.

[Special_Puppy]

Very simple exercise. Decided to use 538's RAPTOR Metric since its the best historical metric available for players since the merger. Decided to look at each players RAPTOR WAR where a player's best season is weighted 100%, a player's 2nd best season is weighted 90%, a player's 3rd best season is weighted 80%, etc. Also weighted playoffs twice as much. Jordan ended up 1st with 172 peak WAR. LeBron ended up 2nd with 157 peak WAR. 3rd place is Stockton with 134 career WAR. 10th place is Harden with 115 career WAR. So pretty sizable gap between Jordan+LeBron and everyone else with Jordan probably being a step ahead of LeBron peak wise

Are you talking about two different metrics here? you mentioned "peak WAR" and then "career WAR" so unclear to me if these are different calculations or not

Meant to say peak war

[OhayoKD]

What an interesting way to phrase "gets torched by Lebron's 09 run per rate in all numbers I like". So much so, your only real retort is arguing it doesn't count

I'm not saying it doesn't count. I'm saying it's a pretty damn obvious outlier.

It doesn't get much clearer than that when he doesn't ever come close to that 14-game stretch again.

Let's add 2020 + 2021 Donovan Mitchell as a GOAT level scorer while we're at it. Peak 33.9 ppg on +7.1 rTS across 17 playoff games.

Only irrational people can actually believe that Lebron is anywhere close as a scorer. Your argument is comedy as always.

He was that playoff run...unless you are talking...hypothetically.

Ignoring of course Lebron was en-route to a better year (by common box-score) next season before he injured his elbow

Nobody cares about hypotheticals.

Unless it's Lebron's scoring lol.

Give me a list of non-elite SG defenders who:

I see we've retreated from "GOAT perimeter defender" to "elite sg"

Besides if Jordan's impact stats look that good and he's a subpar defender then he must be the offensive GOAT by a comically large margin as opposed to a small margin. Something's got to give.

And by "that good" you mean looking like Magic's bridesmaid?

Now, how about let's compare 2010 peak Bron to 1991 peak Jordan (using Lebron's 2nd worst series game and Jordan's 2 best ones)



That's Lebron. Now Jordan's two best series games..

Hobbled Lebron in his 2nd worst series game was better than Jordan in his best series of the year in his 2 best games. You can make up all the excuses you want to, but it won't change how that peak Lebron was better than peak Jordan.

I’m going to be real with you…If you think 2010 LeBron performed better in game 4 against the Celtics than 1991 MJ did in games 1-2 of the finals then that’s a very damning indictment of your methodology and overall process.

Tfw when you don't have an actual argument

[Top10alltime]

Hobbled Lebron in his 2nd worst series game was better than Jordan in his best series of the year in his 2 best games. You can make up all the excuses you want to, but it won't change how that peak Lebron was better than peak Jordan.

I’m going to be real with you…If you think 2010 LeBron performed better in game 4 against the Celtics than 1991 MJ did in games 1-2 of the finals then that’s a very damning indictment of your methodology and overall process.

Jordan fans when they get fried.

[OhayoKD]

Very simple exercise. Decided to use 538's RAPTOR Metric since its the best historical metric available for players since the merger. Decided to look at each players RAPTOR WAR where a player's best season is weighted 100%, a player's 2nd best season is weighted 90%, a player's 3rd best season is weighted 80%, etc. Also weighted playoffs twice as much. Jordan ended up 1st with 172 peak WAR. LeBron ended up 2nd with 157 peak WAR. 3rd place is Stockton with 134 career WAR. 10th place is Harden with 115 career WAR. So pretty sizable gap between Jordan+LeBron and everyone else with Jordan probably being a step ahead of LeBron peak wise

Oh that's crazy, I did a very simple exercise too. But instead of WAR I used a cutting edge metric:

Spoiler:

You know I was going to respond to what you were saying but I really really need to share this new advanced stat I've found. It's called "F4Ps/40". Let me take you through the formula. First we use a couple numbers which usually the best players have more of:

PPs/40 poss (primary protections) and PPG/40 poss (points per game). Then we multiply the first by 72 points and the second by 0.3 points (early rapm tests suggests this is a positively correlative combination!).

Here's an example of how it works.

Jordan so far is averaging 2.4 PPs/40 Possessions and itmakesnodifferenceforthisthoughtexercise # of points

Oakley is averaging 13.5 PPs/40 possessions and itmakesnodifferenceforthisthoughtexercise # of points

therefore Jordan scores 173 F4Ps/40 while Oakley scores 965 F4Ps/40.

That's a whole lot of margin to account for any "made up-ness" in those numbers. I think only through the most rose-colored glasses we could assume Jordan is a better player than Oakley. (Seriously, why are you guys making me stick up for a Knick!)

Pretty sizable gap between Oakley and Michael Jordan. Hmmmm

Speaking of simple exercises, what would happen if we make a WOWY adjustment where we "adjust" by looking at how a teammate who leaves does on the team they join next the season after they join. And of course "how they do" is measured by how that new team does when they join?

Spoiler:

If i filter it to >50 games and restrict my adjustment to "the year after a player leaves" instead of a scattershot prime-length amalgamation combining dozens of >5 game samples several years apart....

It "systematically" takes dozens of players from completely different rosters at completely different points of their careers based on the average deltas from what ever smattering of games they missed and throws them together completely excluding the largest possible samples (arrivals/depatures).

Your defense hinges on the Bulls getting worse, and they will have had to have gotten worse losing

(in order of minutes averaged)

-> Orlando Woodridge, whose next team gets 4 points worse
-> David Greenwood, whose next team got 3 points worse
-> Quintin Dailey, whose next team got 5 points worse
-> Ennis Whatley, whose next team stayed the same
-> Mitchell Wiggins, whose next team got 5 points better
-> Rod Higgins, whose next team got 5 points better
-> Reggie Theus, whose next team gets 2 points worse
-> Steve Johnson, whose next team got 2 points worse
-> Ronnie Lester, whsoe next team got 3 points better
-> Syndney Green, whose next team got 2 points better
-> Jawhan Oldham, whose next team got 1 point worse
-> Wallace Bryant whose next team got 1 point better

...well shockingly the evidence suddenly calls into question if Jordan is even top tier, never mind being in his own.

I tinkered around actually and can report there are now 30 Prime WOWYs by which peak Jordan looks worse than Rookie Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

What a consensus!!!!!

Yeah let's get to the vote shall we.

64 Bill Russell

-> Leads massive rs outlier with no evidence of impressive help playing way more minutes than everyone
-> RS outlier is dominant in the postseason
-> potential peak of a player who effectively lead two different dynasties with two completely different supporting casts and won back to back against historically strong competition as a player-coach on a roster that seems to have been incapable of making the playoffs without.


I am keeping things mostly era-relative this time around so Russell is a simple 1 to argue for.

But that's not what most people are hear for so let me put my focus on a potential thread winner.


09 Lebron James (second pick would be 2016)

First let's take a look at Lebron in general

lebron 09-21 wowy
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference
-3.68 drtg difference
+12 total swing

Now his competition (for this thread)

jordan 88-98
bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+1.1 drtg difference
+4 total swing

Fun-fact, that isn't even the most favorable sample for Lebron. Replace 2021 with 2008, that goes higher. Actually move it back to 2004, ignore him joining a 17-win team and....Lebron still ends up higher.

Lebron is the #2 in career wowy a little behind Steph on 50 percent more minutes. He is also the King of RAPM in almost every data-set and timeframe:
https://www.thespax.com/nba/quantifying-the-nbas-greatest-five-year-peaks-since-1997/

And (shocker), thus far he looks hilariously better than Jordan when we look at what happens during the whole of a possession as opposed to who touches the ball last:

RESUME Game 1 lebron 2009 offensively Total Possession when bron was in the floor – 75 Total Possession that Lebron have action on/offball - 64 Playmaking -DTOs - 69 -EDTOs – 35
ADAs – 19
-Double - 14 -Triple - 3 -Création - 21 ~ R’Creation ( Rim ) – 7
P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) -14
-SC ( Screen ) - 1
EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 12
RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 18
BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 1
BB ( Bring ball up ) - 16
Scoring -FGA - 30 -FGM - 20 -M ( midrange ) -11 ( 8/11 ) -P ( Post play ) – 2 ( 1/2 ) -R ( Rim : lay up / dunk ) – 11 ( 8/11 ) -T ( 3pt ) – 6 (3/6 ) -PB ( Putback ) – 0 -FTA - 9 + FTM – 6 -OCT ( Offensive Contest ) - 24 -OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested ) - 6
FD ( Foul draw by defender ) - 8
REBOUND
OREB – 3
OBX – 1
NOBX -2

RESUME Game 2 MJ 1991 offensively Total Possession when MJ was in the floor – 61 Total Possession of play MJ have action both on/off ball – 58 Total Possession of play MJ didn’t affect or didn’t have the opportunity to affect – 3 Playmaking
DTOs - 41
EDTOs – 17
ADAs – 4
Double - 8
Triple - 0
Création - 14
R’Creation ( Rim ) - 8
P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) - 6
SC ( Screen ) - 0
EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 7
RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 13
BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 3
BB ( Bring ball up ) - 22

You might notice Jordan brings the ball up more here. And still cannot register anywhere near as much raw creation.

Nor does he stack up in terms of usage and efficacy as a defender:

Spoiler:

During Lebron’s first 40 possessions, I gave him, 10 possessions as a primary or co-primary rim-protector of which he was deemed effective in 2 and ineffective in 1. Lebron also was given 18 possessions as a primary or co–primary perimeter defender, of which he was deemed effective in 6 and ineffective in 3. Additionally, Lebron was given 2 Irrational Avoidances. This means per Possession, Lebron averaged, 0.25 PPs, 0.05 EPPs, 0.025 IPPs, 0.45 PPDs, 0.15 EPPDs, 0.075 IPPDs, and 0.05 IAs.

During his first 40 possessions of the 2007 Finals, I gave Lebron 5 possessions as a primary or co-primary rim-protector of which he was deemed effective in 3 and ineffective in 1. Lebron also was given 16 possessions as a primary or co–primary perimeter defender, of which he was deemed effective in 9 and ineffective in 3. Additionally Lebron was given 9 Irrational Avoidances. This means per Possession, Lebron averaged, 0.125 PPs, 0.075 EPPs, 0.025 IPPs, 0.4 PPDs, 0.225 EPPDs, 0.075 IPPDs, and 0.225 IAs

^^^Randomly picked Lebron game

Spoiler:

During Jordan’s first 40 possessions, I gave him, 0 possessions as a primary or co-primary rim-protector of which he was deemed effective in 0 and ineffective in 0. Jordan also was given 19 possessions as a primary or co–primary perimeter defender, of which he was deemed effective in 5 and ineffective in 5. Additionally, MJ was given 3 Irrational Avoidances. This means per Possession, MJ averaged, 0.00 PPs, 0.00 EPPs, 0.00 IPPs, 0.475 PPDs, 0.125 EPPDs, 0.125 IPPDs, and 0.05 IAs.

^^^Per Djoker, an "a" game from Michael Jordan defensively (his only of the series)

Also talk about deterrence to excuse Jordan getting burned completely by Magic, but in all the tracking, Lebron is the only person to make defenders go the opposite side when it' smore crowded > 5 times in a half. And he does it twice.

So. Way better playmaker. Way better defender. Cremates MJ when we look at impact over full games (and seasons). Mostly cremates all comers in RAPM (Jordan's not quite on pace for that). Oh and in the year in question...beats jordan so thoroughly in all-in-ones, that quite literally the only ones which put Jordan higher are the ones that reward him for playing more that specific year.

That loses it's pull pretty quickly when you realize Lebron averaged more minutes over 15 seasons than Jordan did over 30 (not even including the playoffs) and was a bigger ooutlier in terms of minutes played (even excluding Jordan's extended breaks) relative to era.

Djoker just functionally conceded he can't really argue against Lebron's level of play this year. And other people are posting 10-year black box adjustments or using platoon-inflated on/off to argue a 27-win team turned into a 2-win team when they lost a collection of minutes that were massive negatives (collectively) on their following teams.

I could bring up how Lebron has never tried to trade teamamtes for messing with his stats or told coaches he needs to win scoring titles or punched teammates. I could bring up how Lebron's led the #1, #5, and #6 best 4th quarter teams in history in rapid succession (2008, 2009, 2010) (and the #2) on a cavalier team that won 1 of 15 games he didn't play in.

I could bring up how he's a better off-ball player:

Spoiler:

..

I still can't believe you said arguing Jordan is a dumb take.

Even big Lebron fans like Heej disagreed with you.

Anyway this is comfortably Jordan:
- much better shooter
- better at navigating around screens to get open; smaller frame, quicker
- better offensive rebounder (surprisingly..)
- quicker decision maker on the catch vs. Lebron's slower, more deliberate play
- also a lob threat - 6'6'' 48 inch vertical lol
- more proof of concept; actually scored many more points off ball vs. a bunch of hypotheticals for Lebron; we've seen Jordan lead elite offenses while playing a lot off-ball whereas we've never seen it with Lebron

Tagging me in a different thread while I’m suspended is hilarious lol.

You don’t understand Xs and Os sadly

What makes Lebron better off ball is you can conceptually do a lot more with him if you lean into that, Jordan did end up doing more off ball throughout their careers in the roles and offenses they played in, but that’s not the same thing as who was better off ball.

First of all, generally speaking the type of empty side clear out cuts (I forgot the name ngl) to create get overhyped as some sort of massive brained play, as well as cuts to draw help defenders, alot of those are built in or dependent on how a team functions. We saw in 2021 and 2022 the Lakers were stupid stagnant in their post offense, in terms of cutting off of both stunts and baseline hep, whereas in 2023 and 2024 they’ve id when to cut and when to flash or set pin in flares (digging vs baseline help) and you see the post data for AD suddenly looks alot better. Of those guys brons certainly the best cutter off of stunts to the point they can’t really do it off of him or they have to stunt and rotate high and give up the cut to someone else instead

And 45 stampede cut + lift people overhype the crap out of thinking it’s the pinnacle of bball intelligence lol, it’s really just how the offense decides to align for those opportunities and we’ve seen it with brin

There REALLY isn’t a comparison in terms of what they could do though

First of all, lebron is a better shooter off ball, because he can shoot the three. Yes, era matters there and it’s unfair to Jordan but in an absolute sense yeah this isn’t a close comparison, brons abour a 37-42% three point shooter throughout 2010-2023, he takes a lot of pullup jumpers in pick and roll and hits them at a respectable rate (relative to average players) that brings down his averages (35% off the dribble would be about 40% off the shoot probably)

Lebrons catch and shoot three point data per Synergy:

2010: 34.7%
2011: 39.3%
2012 34.7%
2013 42.1%
2014 42.5%
2015: 42%
2016 36.0%
2017 40%
2018 41.4%
2019 35.0%
2020 40.6%
2021 37.6%
2022 37.1%
2023 31.8%
2024 45.9%

In any case spot up shooting is much more not being bad than being an outlier unless ur a crazy outlier which neither of them are, I agree it’s unfair to say jordan didn’t shoot well from three therefore he’s worse because of era but arguing the other way around because bron doesn’t shoot catch and shoot midrange jump shots off of screens which has been largely phased out is equally unfair and it’s also a less valuable skill period if ur talking about midrange shots

As for being a lob threat:

Jordan was around 6ft4-6ft5 barefoot and his vertical from what I recall was measured at 45 inches in some UNC paper off an unlimited run ip and 41 inches with the ball. If you’ve ever played basketball you know that it’s not 1 to 1 with vertical and height, ur never gonna see a guard be a roll man lob threat consistently

That’s not a lob threat in a way that functionally matters at all in the context I was describing, which was as a roller. Lebron barely qualifies being 6ft8.5 barefoot with a 40+ inch vert as well, and I’m taking about pre Lakers for sure (maybe even only up to Miami but not sure)

It’s mitigated a tad by the fact that lebron on the move with the ball is basically unstoppable, but that doesn’t mitigate it all that much in the context of why you want a lob threat in pick and roll vs aggressive coverages

There’s a much stronger argument that neither of them are in that context than Jordan being one as well. Jordan isn’t tall enough to be one, bron probably barely meets the mark but I get the argument he doesn’t in the context of what I said

The entirety of how he improved in 2023 outside of Lebron getting to be more physical rather than quick was them starting to get him the ball on the move more, in the playoffs he couldn’t do anything on ball at all

Offensive rebounding:

I mean neither are threats in the way that someone should consider an off ball player, (using raw rebounding % makes no sense when that number has changed lol). But regardless of a 0-1% change either way, lebron technically is a bigger threat just based on size since off ball offensive rebounding is probably more about in mismatch situations on certain switches (beyond that, offensive rebounding is just… offensive rebounding lol)


Quicker decision maker on the catch:
Being a quick decision maker off the catch isn’t equivalent to possessions resetting when they pass it out at times but this really isn’t comparable to the other advantages lol


Anyways, a 38 year old lebron currently averaging less touches a game than Brandon Ingram with less time of possession than Austin reaves, he’s averaging 26-8-7 on 67%TS and noticeably taking it easy till the fourth, and is a +17.4 on offense which ranks poorly overall because they can’t function without him (which is a bit from bad luck to be clear)

A 37 year old bron in the 18 game stretch where AD was hurt and we desperately were clinging to the playoffs, with no spacing, averages 80.6 touches a game (14th) , an average time of possession of 6.3 minutes (15th) , an average time of 4.66 seconds per touch (52nd). Those numbers aren’t quite as low as they were in Miami (2014 only) where people say off ball bron was somewhat of a thing but they’re close ish, especially considering who the team had around them and the raw volume of their offensice production. If I recall lebron was like a +17-18 on offense and we were top 5 in the games he played on that end

Wouldn’t call it off ball at first, the caveat is he was averaging 33.5/8/8 on great effeciency (62.5TS), so those rankings are insane considering the production

So what we have here is a VASTLY declined Lebron put his foot on the gas for 20 games and pretty consistently was a top 3 offensive player in a league with Jokic, Luka, Curry, in that stretch before injuries got him, and currently brons averaging a career high percentage inside the arc and his average career numbers despite sleepwalking untill the fourth quarter because he definately wants that clutch player of the year award unless 500k is on the line or it’s a marquee/revenge game matchup (anyone that doubts this has not seen the Lakers, lebron is currently leading the league in ppg in the fourth other than tyus Jones whose played 1 fourth quarter, averaging 32-8-8 per 36 on 70.8TS)


Now shooting off of screens is genuinely important, but not as much from the midrange nowadays


Jordan is good in the context of an elite normal player off ball whereas Lebron has much more unique value off ball which is the main thing here

Jordan doesnt open things up schematically for you to be more creative and diverse with what you can do for your offense or to make your actions more effective, he is an incredibly smart and skilled player off ball

Lebron, especially the younger versions of him that would be a lob threat that still shoot well off the catch, if you play into that absolutely does those things.

As cutters their values aren’t even remotely close, an issue with synergy tracking is some post ups are considered cuts and stampede cuts aren’t classified as cuts iirc, but not only is bron historically effecient off cuts for awhile now, but it’s one of those things where it’s a unique value vs other guys. With most players off cuts it’s cuz they’re so fast and smart with it but if you can wall up it’s fine, with bron it’s because he’s fast and huge so if you wall up he’ll go overpower you and he knows how to not foul in those situations, hes unstoppable on the move and it shows in those situations. This should be a non starter, lebrons shooting 80-90% on cuts throughout his career, his cutting has unique value because of the combination of size, finishing, speed, and playmaking. An argument for Jordan here is as much of a non starter as saying he’s better in transition

The synergy stat sheet that’s someone made for Jordan awhile back is a bit broke because turnovers weren’t accounted for, but iirc over 142 games jordan was at 68% inside the arc on cuts with a little more than one a game

That is both impressive and lower than any season bron has had since and including 2010, especially in recent years where brons relied on it and focused on it more he’s at hovering at around 80%, on a bit more volume as well per game (My mistake, one year they had a similar percentage where bron was at 67%, but bron had more volume)



As an off rolling big, its REALLY hard to name a guy that has basically all the skills you need vs every coverage, spot up shooting, short roll passing, punishing mismatches, lob threat. Throw in offensive rebounding there too but that’s not usually one I think of to beat coverages as much as a bonus but its valid. There are ways to mitigate lacking in some of those skills but that gets tied into the ball handler and coaching.

Lebron checks at least 3/4 boxes super comfortably, and as a lob threat he’s 6ft8.5 barefoot with a 40-45 inch vert, At least when he was younger, he’s a tad short for that but he’s an inch or two shorter than AD and dwight so he could still be one.

Jordan does not qualify as a lob threat in that situation and it doesn’t even make sense to care about him in that situation


A lot of Arguments for Jordan on here in the context of their off ball ability are focused on what occurred situationally in the situations they were in ans the systems they played in (which is valid), but the arguments that hes actually better just always end up being super vague and not actual descriptive which just sounds like waffling things out of thin air lol, throwing out super vague descriptions of what happens on the court m to make a point is barely step better than throwing out a narrative out there imo. In a concrete sense lebrons just so more of a potent tool off ball you can do more things with, feel that’s a given if you have schematic knowledge of the freedom a guy like bron gives you over a guy like Jordan

I see a better argument for Jordan on ball than off ball in terms of them as players, people don’t get how ridiculous younger versions of lebron would be as a rolling small ball big that’s still a huge lob threat, but obviously it goes without saying he’s more impactful on ball than off ball. There are less than 5 players in nba history that check all the boxes as an rolling big probably and he would be one of them. You don’t need to check all
The boxes but it gives you so much more versatility and reseliency against coverages, we saw the warriors pick and roll attack somewhat die this past postseason against a high drop since Dray isn’t a lob threat and switching hurt it at times too even at their best, Westbrook and AD had issues because neither of them could should and Westbrook wasn’t as fast as he used to be so things like north south ball screens and flipping the screen weren’t quite as dominant as they had been

Heej is my boy but he was talking about shooting as a main point and more about the role bron did play, but also the fact that lebron was actually a good catch and shoot three point shooter is just a thing that’s weird and most people don’t expect, and he clarified it was a role thing and bron could be better even now if he leans into it more

But do I need to? Like really, do I?

I think there's no better tell to how silly this comparison is, then the lengths the opposition goes to make it seem like something more than a farce.

Lebron is better than Jordan. He was a better playmaker by 21. A better defender by 22. And a much better player by 24. And then the better champion at 31. He is the standard of modern basketball. And I'm glad this board is finally admitting it.

3. 74 Kareem

Best defender and best attacker. I expended my realgm energy with the write-up above so let's leave it there for now.

[Reardonwd]

Hey folks, my first year here, here’s my list:

Greatest peaks ever:

1. 2012-2013 Lebron James
2. 1990-1991 Michael Jordan
3. 2015-2016 Stephen Curry


Lebron at #1 is easy for me, for all of the dominance Jordan showed, Lebron is the perfect nba player. In 2013 he had perfected offensive efficiency while being one of the 3 best defenders in the league and possessing the widest array of versatility of anyone that will pop up on this list. Top shelf scorer, top shelf passer, top shelf defender, brings everything to the table and takes nothing off of it. 60% on 2s, 40% on 3s, 1st team all nba defender.

Jordan was the ultimate killer, first guard to truly lead his team to the promised land. MVP, Scoring champ, finals mvp, crushing Magic and the lakers in 5, on 31-6-11 and 56% shooting. Was the first to do much of what he did, which makes it doubly impressive. Perhaps the player who had the largest gap as the best player over the 2nd best ever.

Curry, revolutionized the game. Led the league in scoring volume and scoring efficiency. Broke the game both with the ball in his hands and with his gravity. Led the league in steals too btw. 50-45-90, 45% on 11 3s a game is the most absurd shooting season ever.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Credit to the search function on this forum, as well as the catalog of previous Peaks Projects. As a long-time lurker and short-term poster, the wealth of basketball information on this website alone eclipses the rest of the internet.

1. LeBron James 2016 (2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, 2017, 2020)
2. Bill Russell 1962 (1963, 1964 and 1965)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1974 (1977, but I digress)


What sets LeBron’s Defense apart from the non-traditional big men over the course of NBA History?

The most valuable defensive impact a player can have, besides being a 6’ 5” Bald Man from College Station, Texas, is to be a mobile rim deterrent in the likes of Tim Duncan, Bill Russell and Kevin Garnett or be a rim-protecting, well-rounded defensive wing in the vein of Draymond Green, Bobby Jones and LeBron James. As we focus on the wings who can masquerade as defensive centerpieces, their value simply exceeds guard and wing defenders who put up gaudy steal numbers or are shut-down on-ball menaces like Dennis Rodman.

Below is an illustration of just how good, statistically, LeBron was at deterring and defending shots from all over the court during the season I will present as his Peak, understanding he has a handful of seasons I would consider “Yeah, this is the best player to ever lace them up”.

ISO defense
LeBron: .59 points per possession (PPP), 93rd percentile
Draymond: .68, 85th percentile
Kawhi: .69 PPP, 83rd percentile

Pick and roll ball handler
Kawhi: .65 PPP, 90th percentile
LeBron: .66 PPP, 88th percentile
Draymond: .88, 71st percentile

Pick and roll roll man
Kawhi: .50 PPP, 98th percentile
LeBron: .70 PPP, 84th percentile
Draymond: .77 PPP, 75th percentile

Post defense
Draymond: .65 PPP, 89th percentile
LeBron: .77 PPP, 73rd percentile
Kawhi: .77 PPP, 71st percentile (numbers are rounded so James might have been at .772 and Kawhi at .768 or something)

Spot up defense
LeBron: .80 PPP, 87th percentile
Kawhi: .88 PPP, 75th percentile
Draymond: .91 PPP, 66th percentile

Off screens defense
Draymond: .45 PPP, 98th percentile
LeBron: .74PPP, 85th percentile
Kawhi: 1.05 PPP, 31st percentile

Hand offs defense
LeBron: .49 97th percentile
Kawhi: .72 PPP, 78th percentile
Draymond: .91 PPP, 43rd percentile

Regular season
Overall DFGA
LeBron: 37.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 44.7%, -7.3%
Draymond: 39.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 45.5%, -6.1%
Kawhi: 39.2 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 44.8%, -5.6%

3P DFGA
LeBron: 32.1 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 34.6%, -2.6%
Draymond: 29.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 34.6%, -5.1%
Kawhi: 33.7 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 34.9, -1.2%

2P DFGA
LeBron: 40.8 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 49.0%, -8.2%
Draymond: 42.9 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 49.2%, -6.3%
Kawhi: 41.7 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 48.8%, -7.2%

DFGA <6 Feet (Near Rim)
LeBron: <6ft: 48.6 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 59.9%, -11.3%
Draymond: <6ft: 51.9 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 60.6%, -8.7%
Kawhi: <6ft: 53.5 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 60.5%, -7.0%

Moving onto the post-season…

Here is the Defensive On/Off for each playoff series.

Round 1 vs Pistons (Off Rank #15, avg Rel Ortg)
Lebron on court DEF RTG 103.7
Lebron off-court DEF RTG 130.9

Round 2 vs Hawks (Off Rank #20, -0.9 Rel Ortg)
Lebron on court DEF RTG 103.2
Lebron off-court DEF RTG 112.9

ECF vs Raptors (Off Rank #5th, +4 Rel Ortg)
Lebron on court DEF RTG 102.2
Lebron off-court DEF RTG 83.9

Finals vs Warriors (Off Rank #1, +8.2 Rel Ortg)
Lebron on court DEF RTG 104.1
Lebron off-court DEF RTG 122

Playoffs overall
Lebron on court DEF RTG 103.3
Lebron off-court DEF RTG 107.2
League avg is about 105.5

While there is clearly noise in the small sample size, PBPStats.com can provide additional context along with additional information.

LeBron On-Court Defensive Rating: 105.2
LeBron Off-Court Defensive Rating: 111.0
LeBron On/Off Defensive Rating: -5.8
MyUniBrowDavis LeBron On/Off Defensive Rating: -3.9
LeBron Rel Defensive Rating (Compared to League Average): -2.0
LeBron Rel Defensive Rating (Compared to Opponent Strength): -4.6

To summarize, LeBron was anchoring a -4 to -5 Defense against good offenses. The average offense LeBron faced was +3.4 Rel League Average. This is the type of stuff we see from All-Time great defensive players, typically big men.

Now, to the most impressive defensive series, arguably ever, by a non-big rim protector, the 2016 NBA Finals. What needs to be highlighted here is the value of LeBron’s steals and Blocks. Here is a list of his games 4-5-6-7 Blocks.

1st -chase down block
2nd -chase down block
3rd -early offense p and r block on Curry
4th -block on Draymond putback
5th -block on Draymond in transition
6th -block on Curry P&R at the rim
7th -block on Curry in transition
8th -block on Barbosa cutting to the rim
9th -Arguably the greatest block in NBA History

These blocks include multiple transition blocks, a put-down block, a block off a back-cut, and multiple blocks from the P&R at the rim. LeBron is blocking the most efficient shots in the NBA, transition opportunities, 5 times in 4 games.

Was LeBron getting the most out of his teammates offensively?

Basketball is a game played with 1-ball. Allowing everyone to operate in a different space on the court with defined roles is going to maximize any offensive system and its components (players). But what happens when you have a player who can play all 5 positions? Does he step on the toes of all who share the court, or is he able to fill in seamlessly with any configuration of components?
Let’s take a look, first with a quote that encapsulates much of what I believe regarding LeBron James’ offense and the system he encompasses.

LeBron James vs Detroit: 4 Games, 22.8/9.0/6.8, 1.8 steals, 21.1 3P%, 3.3 TO

Essentially a mediocre to below average prime LeBron series by the box-score, but the most important part of every player at this stage in the Top Peaks (and really all 40 of the top peaks) is how much impact a player has beyond the box-score. Kyrie Irving, for example, had a spectacularly efficient series: 27.5 Points, 6.5 TOV%, 58.5 TS%. The point emphasis and focus though should be this: The Cavaliers played at a net +16.8 Points/100 with James on the court and +3.0 Points/100 with Kyrie on the court. The Cavaliers offense exceeded 120 Ortg with James on the court, a level reserved for the GOAT offensive players.

LeBron James vs Atlanta: 24.3/8.5/7.8, 3.0 steals, 4.25 TO, 57.3 TS%

Box-Score looks a bit better, but let's back up. Atlanta is a 101.4 Defense Rating (2nd in NBA) and 3.49 SRS team. This team is significantly better than either opponent Jordan faced in round 1 or 2 in 1991. The Hawks are coming off a series played in 2016 holding their opponents to a 94.5 Ortg. That's incredible, and the team was Boston who was respectable (2.83 SRS, 8th in NBA, 10th rated Offense and 4th Rated Defense).

Now, look at what LeBron and the Cavaliers did to dismantle this defense--the 2nd best in the league and one looking like an all-time great defense through the regular season and 1st round of the playoffs...The Cavaliers played at a net +19,1 Points/100 with James on the court and +18.4 Points/100 with Kyrie on the court and +23.3 with Kevin Love. If anyone think LeBron is difficult to play with or diminishing his teammates efficiency...
LeBron James On-Court Ortg: 122.2
Kevin Love On-Court Ortg: 123.7
Kyrie Irving On-Court Ortg: 124.6

These numbers are against a 101.4 Rated Defense, that's producing an offense over +20 points per 100 better than what this defense gave up in the regular season and nearly +30 points per 100 better than what they gave up against the 10th best offense in round 1 over 6 games.

Next-up, LeBronto--the team that wins the championship in its first year after LeBron leaves the conference.

LeBron James vs Toronto: 26.0/8.5/6.7, 2.0 steals, 66.5 TS%

There is the ultra-efficient LeBron scoring series but perhaps not even the best part of the series from LeBron. While he posted an all-time great scoring series, and led the Cavaliers to a 121.3 Ortg when on the court resulting in a +19.2 Net Rating per 100 when on the court

In my own words, LeBron reached a pinnacle of Offense and Defensive combination, which netted him his most impactful playoff run and the most iconic NBA Finals in the modern history of basketball. 2016 LeBron isn’t the scorer MJ was, but he is damn close. LeBron isn’t the defensive anchor Russell was, but as a perimeter player he is damn close. It’s the combination of the two-way play that cemented LeBron #1 on my list.


What made Russell Impactful?

In layman's terms, Russell was the most active and efficient rim-protector the league has ever seen. In order to be active, you need to be mobile, and boy was Russell mobile. As I mentioned above, it is the rim protectors who can be mobile that have the greatest impact. An easy side-comparison defensively is Wilt, who was also an All-Time Great defender, but never approached the same level as Russell defensively.
The best defenders the NBA has seen can be argued as Russell, Garnett, Duncan, and Draymond, all of whom exhibit incredible mobility with 99th percentile understanding of movement and space recognition.
To illustrate, here is statistics from Russell compared to other ATG Centers through Video Tracking.
[quote=”70sFan”]] Rim protection

1962-69 Russell (estimated): 9.4 high quality contests per game, 2.5 weak contests per game

1993-94 Hakeem: 7.7 high quality contests per game, 1.9 weak contests per game
1962-67 Wilt (estimated): 7.1 high quality contests per game, 2.7 weak contests per game
1971-79 Kareem: 6.4 high quality contests per game, 2.5 weak contests per game
2000 Shaq: 3.7 high quality contests per game, 2.8 weak contests per game
1982-83 Moses: 3.2 high quality contests per game, 3.0 weak contests per game

Help rotations inside

1962-69 Russell (estimated): 2.8 high quality rotations per game, 0.8 bad rotations per game

1993-94 Hakeem: 3.6 high quality rotations per game, 1.3 bad rotations per game
1962-67 Wilt (estimated): 1.0 high quality rotations per game, 1.2 bad rotations per game
1971-79 Kareem: 3.1 high quality rotations per game, 2.2 bad rotations per game
2000 Shaq: 1.4 high quality rotations per game, 1.8 bad rotations per game
1982-83 Moses: 1.3 high quality rotations per game, 1.4 bad rotations per game[/quote]

Why Kareem?
Why Not?

Kareem was essentially Tim Duncan-esque defensively, hasn’t lost some of his mobility and agility, which again I keep harping on as what I value defensively, spry on both ends of the court. Dominant offensively to a slightly lesser degree than Shaq, more so than Wilt or Walton, but defensively, could simply move more fluidly and anticipate better.

[f4p]

[
Besides if Jordan's impact stats look that good and he's a subpar defender then he must be the offensive GOAT by a comically large margin as opposed to a small margin. Something's got to give.

Exactly. We just got a thread on Jordan's playoff on/off and at +18.1 for his career, it's literally the best number of anyone we have data for. People who act like anyone liking jordan is just some braindead "me likey points" fan or that it takes "strange" stats to like Jordan seem to be missing that Jordan combined the crazy box score stuff with the crazy winning and now apparently the best playoff on/off ever. And any time someone scrapes up some RAPM data, he seems to always look amazing in that as well.

[eminence]

Please don't put Bobby and Bron in the same sentence as Draymond when talking about defense.

[jalengreen]

1. '09 LeBron James (2010, 2012, 2013, 2016)

2. '91 Michael Jordan (1989, 1990)

In 2009, LeBron produced, for my money, the most impressive individual season in the history of the sport. It's hard for me to imagine a more valuable season across both sides of the ball through the regular season and postseason. I do not think it was the best version of him as a player - that would probably be 2016, so it really depends on how I want to approach the question. Sticking with 2009 LeBron here, but the point is that I view LeBron as the greatest player ever at his peak and the choice of season is not something I'm dead set on.

Jordan has a real argument for the highest peak era relative impact since the merger. Recently compiled data has certainly strengthened this point, particularly with regard to the offensive side of the ball (defensive data decidedly less impressive - some of the data is actually kinda Steph-like? possible that the Bulls' rotations lead to MJ's off/def split being more skewed than reality though). In cases where it's close (as it is between LeBron and Jordan), I find myself leaning towards the player who I am more confident in translating to the modern era. I have no question marks for LeBron in that department. He's sustained unhampered dominance through vastly different league environments and metas, and I think his impact would be even greater in today's league.

With Jordan, there is inherently less reason for confidence because his playing days are further removed from today. As a baseline, I do not think he'd be worse than Shai Gilgeous-Alexander. That's my "floor" for peak Jordan in the modern era, and it's a pretty ridiculous one because Shai had an all-time guard season (one counter there being that Shai is a better 3PT shooter than anything Jordan has ever shown, but this doesn't give me too much pause in light of everything else). But I still frankly struggle to see peak Jordan as a better player than peak LeBron in LeBron's era. Jordan numbers look Curry-esque offensively and I am unsure that he'd be able to match that in today's game. Essentially I view him as having that GOAT level peak in the era that he played in, but there is enough uncertainty on translation that the tiebreaker for me goes to the guy I have less doubts on.

3. '67 Wilt Chamberlain (1964)

Very unsettled on this one, but I'm extremely high on peak Wilt as far as both "this guy was a ridiculous two way impact player" and "I think this guy would still be ridiculous in today's game." Might change my mind as we get past these first two threads and I read more posts comparing the bigs; Russell, Kareem, Shaq, loom large in particular. But LeBron and MJ are an easy top two for me.

[f4p]

How have 3 people already mentioned 2016 Steph. Ignoring the fact that even last time it was 2017 that ended up being his season, are we just straight up stopping peak seasons at the end of the regular season now? His 2016 playoffs would be lucky to crack a top 200 playoffs list, even without accounting for missing 6 games.

[falcolombardi]

Please don't put Bobby and Bron in the same sentence as Draymond when talking about defense.

I dobt think he was saying they were equally good but pointing out they were mobile and impactful rim protectors despite not being huge like most rim protecting centers