Why is Tracy McGrady one of purest scorers despite low efficiency (TS 51.9%)

[UcanUwill]

So, most of that is correct. Maggette, however, didn't have an inefficient season until he went to Charlotte in 2012... which was his second last season. Up to that point, his WORST season was a 106 TS+ season the year prior.

He was EXTREMELY efficient, and from 04-11, he was a 58.8% TS guy, which would be efficient even today.

His problem was that he had blinders on, had turnover issues and after 04, his ability to hit shots wasn't there consistently above league average level. But he was a demon of a slasher who was also about an 85% FT shooter, so he was perpetually living at the line. Dude was just like "HAHA, SHOULDERS!!!!" and bashed his way to the rim. It was kind of amazing, even if he was a bit of a derpclown outside of that ability.

Man, maybe i remember sonething wrong, I thought macgette was very inefficient... My bad, maybe it was the lack of passing that people hated about him. It was the talking point back then, I remember people hating on Melo a lot because of that.

I remember myself thinking that Jermaine O'Neal is super overrated offensively, because his percentages, especially for a big man, were freaking terrible. I can not check myself now, but I bet he was very inefficient, that is one thing I remember about him.

With Maggette the thing was more that he was a bad 3 point shooter and kind of the prototypical "empty stats guy" by putting up big numbers on bad teams. He just made it to the playoffs once in 14 seasons.

Yes, I remember him being poster boy of ''empty stats'', but that label is often ain't based on facts, just more of a feel and trust me bro narratives. I thought there were more factual evidence of him sucking, inefficiency, but I guess I just remember it wrong. He never had team success, but some guys just end up on bad teams.

Now remembering Jermaine O'Neal and Macgette, I now remember that people were definitely more about selfishness than efficiency. I feel O'Neal would not get a pass today, shooting the way he was, where MacGette would probably get more of a pass, because we would point out that whatever he does - work, at last statistically. People hated Iverson, MacGette, Carmelo cause they appeared to be quite selfish scorers who never want to pass the ball.

But that said, I mentioned O'Neal, but I also felt like living in a crazy world when people were raving about Roy Hibbert. I was the only guy in the world probably who thought Hibbert freaking sucks. Yeah, his defense was impactful, but it felt like I was the only one who knew about his touch and scoring metrics. Like, he was freaking terrible, in his literal prime, he had 3 season in a row where barely scored more points than he had field goal attempts, as a center who does not shoot 3s even, think about that. ANd it was the time Zach Lowe was raving how that guy si MVP candidate. And it is not like it was long time ago, it was like 10 years ago, so I guess sometimes, people just do not care for efficiecnty at all, as long as guy does something else usuefull, so maybe guys would give Jermaine O'neal a pass all over again. ... ... ... ... ... Roy Hibbert was terrible lol...

[PistolPeteJR]

Spacing and bad shot selection. Everything is different now.

They used to take foot on the line 2 pointers on purpose in his era..

What does that mean?

I think what he's trying to say is that players back then didn't care about those long-2s, including but not limited to the ones where they had a foot on the three-point line, contrary to today.

[UcanUwill]

Spacing and bad shot selection. Everything is different now.

They used to take foot on the line 2 pointers on purpose in his era..

What does that mean?

I think what he's trying to say is that players back then didn't care about those long-2s, including but not limited to the ones where they had a foot on the three-point line, contrary to today.

I think people always hated foot on the line twos, so it is obvious exaggeration, but yeah, in the past, the closer your shot was to the basket, the better. People thought taking shots one step inside 3 point line is great.

Kyle Korver toold the story, that when he was drafted, during first practice, he caught the ball at a 3 point line, and he was wide open, so he took step inside a 3 point line to take a long two, thinking that is what wanted from him, but props to his coach at a time, he says coach puled him over and said if he does that again, he gets benched for good. So not like everyone was stupid and didn't know the value of one more point, but yeah, there was less evidence back then, people weren't calculating this stuff the way we do now.

[PistolPeteJR]

What does that mean?

I think what he's trying to say is that players back then didn't care about those long-2s, including but not limited to the ones where they had a foot on the three-point line, contrary to today.

I think people always hated foot on the line twos, so it is obvious exaggeration, but yeah, in the past, the closer your shot was to the basket, the better. People thought taking shots one step inside 3 point line is great.

Kyle Korver toold the story, that when he was drafted, during first practice, he caught the ball at a 3 point line, and he was wide open, so he took step inside a 3 point line to take a long two, thinking that is what wanted from him, but props to his coach at a time, he says coach puled him over and said if he does that again, he gets benched for good.

Yeah I recall something like that.

This whole thing is merely a microcosm of the much larger problem, notably, the closedmindedness of people in general. The refusal to question, look into things, the ignorance, obliviousness, even fear for some, to consider the "why". Take Korver's coach, for instance, threatening to bench him if he takes a wide-open three again. The only reason he did that is because what he understood was what the game was prior to and up to that time (2003). Instead of his coach questioning why Korver took that shot and what it might signify to the team from a contribution standpoint, it's simply, "No, never do that, because we just don't do that", and if I was a betting man, if Korver questioned his coach as to why that's the instruction, he'd be perceived as argumentative and toxic.

[UcanUwill]

I think what he's trying to say is that players back then didn't care about those long-2s, including but not limited to the ones where they had a foot on the three-point line, contrary to today.

I think people always hated foot on the line twos, so it is obvious exaggeration, but yeah, in the past, the closer your shot was to the basket, the better. People thought taking shots one step inside 3 point line is great.

Kyle Korver toold the story, that when he was drafted, during first practice, he caught the ball at a 3 point line, and he was wide open, so he took step inside a 3 point line to take a long two, thinking that is what wanted from him, but props to his coach at a time, he says coach puled him over and said if he does that again, he gets benched for good.

Yeah I recall something like that.

This whole thing is merely a microcosm of the much larger problem, notably, the closedmindedness of people in general. The refusal to question, look into things, the ignorance, obliviousness, even fear for some, to consider the "why". Take Korver's coach, for instance, threatening to bench him if he takes a wide-open three again. The only reason he did that is because what he understood was what the game was prior to and up to that time (2003). Instead of his coach questioning why Korver took that shot and what it might signify to the team from a contribution standpoint, it's simply, "No, never do that, because we just don't do that", and if I was a betting man, if Korver questioned his coach as to why that's the instruction, he'd be perceived as argumentative and toxic.

I expanded my post and thats not what I meant with his coach, maybe it was my grammar... I meant his coach pulled him and said that if he pass up open 3 again to take a long two, he will be benched... So I mean, even at a time, not everyone was an idiot and knew the value of the 3, like Korver's coach did, but just idea of a shooter like Korver thinking that he needs to take a step closer passing up a 3, is pretty funny and product of its time.

[tsherkin]

Man, maybe i remember sonething wrong, I thought macgette was very inefficient... My bad, maybe it was the lack of passing that people hated about him. It was the talking point back then, I remember people hating on Melo a lot because of that.

Yeah. The passing, the turnovers, didn't have amazing range. He had all kinds of strength, and guile for eliciting contact, but he was very much a dude who produced efficient points and did very little else.

I remember myself thinking that Jermaine O'Neal is super overrated offensively, because his percentages, especially for a big man, were freaking terrible. I can not check myself now, but I bet he was very inefficient, that is one thing I remember about him.

Oh, JO was bawlz on offense. "Hello, here is my steady diet of low-efficiency fadeaways." That was JO. Marvelous defender, decent rebounder, meh passer but not bad for a classic big. Very much flaming ass as a volume scoring option, though, particularly compared to his peers in volume at the 5. Good overall player, but not a quality choice for volume scoring.

[UcanUwill]

Man, maybe i remember sonething wrong, I thought macgette was very inefficient... My bad, maybe it was the lack of passing that people hated about him. It was the talking point back then, I remember people hating on Melo a lot because of that.

Yeah. The passing, the turnovers, didn't have amazing range. He had all kinds of strength, and guile for eliciting contact, but he was very much a dude who produced efficient points and did very little else.

I remember myself thinking that Jermaine O'Neal is super overrated offensively, because his percentages, especially for a big man, were freaking terrible. I can not check myself now, but I bet he was very inefficient, that is one thing I remember about him.

Oh, JO was bawlz on offense. "Hello, here is my steady diet of low-efficiency fadeaways." That was JO. Marvelous defender, decent rebounder, meh passer but not bad for a classic big. Very much flaming ass as a volume scoring option, though, particularly compared to his peers in volume at the 5. Good overall player, but not a quality choice for volume scoring.

Yeah, MacGette had those action figure arms, he was freaking jacked.

[Effigy]

Because of moments like this:

Watch on YouTube

And that guy somehow isn't a top 75 player in league history. OK NBA, whatever.

To be fair, this isn't a legitimate defense of anything. It's a brilliant 13 seconds, but in no way authors an argument for the player against anyone else.

You only thought 13 seconds of it was brilliant?

[PistolPeteJR]

I think people always hated foot on the line twos, so it is obvious exaggeration, but yeah, in the past, the closer your shot was to the basket, the better. People thought taking shots one step inside 3 point line is great.

Kyle Korver toold the story, that when he was drafted, during first practice, he caught the ball at a 3 point line, and he was wide open, so he took step inside a 3 point line to take a long two, thinking that is what wanted from him, but props to his coach at a time, he says coach puled him over and said if he does that again, he gets benched for good.

Yeah I recall something like that.

This whole thing is merely a microcosm of the much larger problem, notably, the closedmindedness of people in general. The refusal to question, look into things, the ignorance, obliviousness, even fear for some, to consider the "why". Take Korver's coach, for instance, threatening to bench him if he takes a wide-open three again. The only reason he did that is because what he understood was what the game was prior to and up to that time (2003). Instead of his coach questioning why Korver took that shot and what it might signify to the team from a contribution standpoint, it's simply, "No, never do that, because we just don't do that", and if I was a betting man, if Korver questioned his coach as to why that's the instruction, he'd be perceived as argumentative and toxic.

I expanded my post and thats not what I meant with his coach, maybe it was my grammar... I meant his coach pulled him and said that if he pass up open 3 again to take a long two, he will be benched... So I mean, even at a time, not everyone was an idiot and knew the value of the 3, like Korver's coach did, but just idea of a shooter like Korver thinking that he needs to take a step closer passing up a 3, is pretty funny and product of its time.

That's good.

Despite that, I guess all that first post did was highlight the epidemic that is the lack of critical thinking that's found everywhere.

[tsherkin]

You only thought 13 seconds of it was brilliant?

It was an excellent half-minute. But it's still not even a minute of basketball, so it means only so much. That's the broader point here. He wasn't doing that on the regular. In Houston in general, he was a shell of himself with the lingering issue in his back. So showing that clip, it doesn't really mean much in the context of this broader conversation.

[bkkrh]

Man, maybe i remember sonething wrong, I thought macgette was very inefficient... My bad, maybe it was the lack of passing that people hated about him. It was the talking point back then, I remember people hating on Melo a lot because of that.

I remember myself thinking that Jermaine O'Neal is super overrated offensively, because his percentages, especially for a big man, were freaking terrible. I can not check myself now, but I bet he was very inefficient, that is one thing I remember about him.

With Maggette the thing was more that he was a bad 3 point shooter and kind of the prototypical "empty stats guy" by putting up big numbers on bad teams. He just made it to the playoffs once in 14 seasons.

Yes, I remember him being poster boy of ''empty stats'', but that label is often ain't based on facts, just more of a feel and trust me bro narratives. I thought there were more factual evidence of him sucking, inefficiency, but I guess I just remember it wrong. He never had team success, but some guys just end up on bad teams.

Now remembering Jermaine O'Neal and Macgette, I now remember that people were definitely more about selfishness than efficiency. I feel O'Neal would not get a pass today, shooting the way he was, where MacGette would probably get more of a pass, because we would point out that whatever he does - work, at last statistically. People hated Iverson, MacGette, Carmelo cause they appeared to be quite selfish scorers who never want to pass the ball.

But that said, I mentioned O'Neal, but I also felt like living in a crazy world when people were raving about Roy Hibbert. I was the only guy in the world probably who thought Hibbert freaking sucks. Yeah, his defense was impactful, but it felt like I was the only one who knew about his touch and scoring metrics. Like, he was freaking terrible, in his literal prime, he had 3 season in a row where barely scored more points than he had field goal attempts, as a center who does not shoot 3s even, think about that. ANd it was the time Zach Lowe was raving how that guy si MVP candidate. And it is not like it was long time ago, it was like 10 years ago, so I guess sometimes, people just do not care for efficiecnty at all, as long as guy does something else usuefull, so maybe guys would give Jermaine O'neal a pass all over again. ... ... ... ... ... Roy Hibbert was terrible lol...

Hibbert was definitely a bit of a weird case. To me it felt that the media was just generally thirsty for young bigs, so it felt like he got a lot of hype just based on not completely sucking. Still remember that it started in his 3rd season, when it started to look like Indiana has a team with a lot of potential and a still young big that averages more than 10 points, close to 8 rebounds and 2 blocks seemed like a thing from the past. Then there was also the fact that he went to Georgetown and that so many other young Centers had been complete disappointments or injury riddled careers.

Related to Maggette and empty stats, to me empty stats means more inflated stats in that sense. Meaning that on a decent team he´d probably averaged around 13 to 15 points instead of getting close to 20 as a starter. He is a player that kind of comes of like a guy that could have made 1 or 2 All Star teams, because he was the number 1 or 2 option on a bad team, when on a Playoff team we would view him as a pretty good starter.

[Upperclass]

TMac is the same player as Paul George.. they have aesthetic games that dont factor efficiency

[benson13]

In 2003 T-Mac took more long twos than threes. Most NBA teams did that.

Now you have almost nothing in from five feet inside the three point line.

It was a different game.

[UcanUwill]

With Maggette the thing was more that he was a bad 3 point shooter and kind of the prototypical "empty stats guy" by putting up big numbers on bad teams. He just made it to the playoffs once in 14 seasons.

Yes, I remember him being poster boy of ''empty stats'', but that label is often ain't based on facts, just more of a feel and trust me bro narratives. I thought there were more factual evidence of him sucking, inefficiency, but I guess I just remember it wrong. He never had team success, but some guys just end up on bad teams.

Now remembering Jermaine O'Neal and Macgette, I now remember that people were definitely more about selfishness than efficiency. I feel O'Neal would not get a pass today, shooting the way he was, where MacGette would probably get more of a pass, because we would point out that whatever he does - work, at last statistically. People hated Iverson, MacGette, Carmelo cause they appeared to be quite selfish scorers who never want to pass the ball.

But that said, I mentioned O'Neal, but I also felt like living in a crazy world when people were raving about Roy Hibbert. I was the only guy in the world probably who thought Hibbert freaking sucks. Yeah, his defense was impactful, but it felt like I was the only one who knew about his touch and scoring metrics. Like, he was freaking terrible, in his literal prime, he had 3 season in a row where barely scored more points than he had field goal attempts, as a center who does not shoot 3s even, think about that. ANd it was the time Zach Lowe was raving how that guy si MVP candidate. And it is not like it was long time ago, it was like 10 years ago, so I guess sometimes, people just do not care for efficiecnty at all, as long as guy does something else usuefull, so maybe guys would give Jermaine O'neal a pass all over again. ... ... ... ... ... Roy Hibbert was terrible lol...

Hibbert was definitely a bit of a weird case. To me it felt that the media was just generally thirsty for young bigs, so it felt like he got a lot of hype just based on not completely sucking. Still remember that it started in his 3rd season, when it started to look like Indiana has a team with a lot of potential and a still young big that averages more than 10 points, close to 8 rebounds and 2 blocks seemed like a thing from the past. Then there was also the fact that he went to Georgetown and that so many other young Centers had been complete disappointments or injury riddled careers.

Related to Maggette and empty stats, to me empty stats means more inflated stats in that sense. Meaning that on a decent team he´d probably averaged around 13 to 15 points instead of getting close to 20 as a starter. He is a player that kind of comes of like a guy that could have made 1 or 2 All Star teams, because he was the number 1 or 2 option on a bad team, when on a Playoff team we would view him as a pretty good starter.

Roy was very good against Chris Bosh, Bosh had no idea how to box him out, Hibbert always was great in those Eastern conference finals vs the HEAT, he was huge, so casuals who only tune for these play off rounds all thought he was amazing. No excuse for Zach Lowe hyping that guy to no end during regular season, but honestly, Zach's track record with centers is abysmal IMO, he hyped up some of the most overrated centers ever, he was very into Vooch also

I still remember thread on Knicks board asking is Roy Hibbert a superstar. It was after after one of those conference finals games, and it was written in terrible getho wannabe 14 year old gangster jargon, but it was on Knicks board and the thread was ''is Roy Hibbert a supasta?'' smth like that.

[Richard4444]

Its not so bad for a high usage perimeter player back then.

Jordan Career TS 57%
Wade Career TS 55,4%
Kobe Career TS 55%
Melo Career TS 54%
Westbrook Career TS 52,6%
Iverson Career TS 51,8%

[jfs1000d]

That career TS 51.9% is awful (shooting percentages 43.5%/33.8%/74.6%).

Even during his peak in Orlando, he had a poor TS of 53.7%

Efficiency isn't always the be all and end all. McGrady a volume scorer. Took a lot of mid range and fall aways.

Don't confuse advanced stats as if being more efficient is better than total output.

McGrady was an output guy, one of the best to do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HMFFL]

Does his stats suggest he peaked in Orlando?

Because, once he became a Rocket, Tracy experienced a much better quality of life. A better coach, a better system, and more of a winning culture. There was no need for him to do it all in Houston.

[Alatan]

TS% isn’t a real number. It’s some made-up math that boosts 3PT% and throws FT% in there for no reason. It’s not a number found in nature. Look at FG% and adjust for the era like a normal person.

Ahahahahaha.

Ok, i finnaly know that you are not a troll.

[tsherkin]

Does his stats suggest he peaked in Orlando?

Very clearly, yes.

Because, once he became a Rocket, Tracy experienced a much better quality of life. A better coach, a better system, and more of a winning culture. There was no need for him to do it all in Houston.

Sure, but his back was shot, and he had like 40 games where he averaged better than 33% from 3. His FT shooting took a diver for a couple years and he couldn't hit inside the arc after 2008 when he left Houston and his volume dropped off. He was a 94 TS+ guy as a Rocket (peaking at 99) and 104 with Orlando (peaking at 109). TSAdd, OBPM, VORP, really any stat you'd care to examine looks at Orlando McGrady (and in particular, 02-03 McGrady) as his peak.

The Rockets were thin, and both McGrady and Yao were often injured. They also only played about 2/3s of their games together. I think the stat was 220 GP with both of them playing, and McGrady had 303 GP with Houston over 5+ seasons.

[Stan]

It's painfully obvious OP isn't aware that those TS% were around average for that era. Trying to compare the early 2000's to now is just asinine. By the time he got to Houston, while still All-NBA caliber, he was clearly not as good as he was in Orlando, injuries had begun to take their toll.