Tom Thibodeau fired pt 2

[Jalen Bluntson]

my logic is that bench wasn't very good which is why none of them are here anymore and were replaced by other players

have any of them even been picked up by another team ? nope. not even precious. because they're fringe nba players. you'll take them as a last resort only.

could he have stole a few minutes with them....sure. but they suck. let's not get it twisted.

Except whenever anyone got extended bench minutes they usually played well. Oops.

The narrative that players who were on the bench in the finals two years ago suddenly suck is gibberish at best. Precious helped us make the semifinals last year. He was great for us when needed.

Thibs was the problem. Not the players.

[god shammgod]

my logic is that bench wasn't very good which is why none of them are here anymore and were replaced by other players

have any of them even been picked up by another team ? nope. not even precious. because they're fringe nba players. you'll take them as a last resort only.

could he have stole a few minutes with them....sure. but they suck. let's not get it twisted.

Except whenever anyone got extended bench minutes they usually played well. Oops.

The narrative that players who were on the bench in the finals two years ago suddenly suck is gibberish at best. Precious helped us make the semifinals last year. He was great for us when needed.

Thibs was the problem. Not the players.

then why didn't the front office bring any of them back ?

[spree8]

my logic is that bench wasn't very good which is why none of them are here anymore and were replaced by other players

have any of them even been picked up by another team ? nope. not even precious. because they're fringe nba players. you'll take them as a last resort only.

could he have stole a few minutes with them....sure. but they suck. let's not get it twisted.

Except whenever anyone got extended bench minutes they usually played well. Oops.

The narrative that players who were on the bench in the finals two years ago suddenly suck is gibberish at best. Precious helped us make the semifinals last year. He was great for us when needed.

Thibs was the problem. Not the players.

then why didn't the front office bring any of them back ?

Because they’re getting upgrades. Why are you thinking so binary? It’s not “they suck or they’re good” only… it’s like when Utah let Rubio walk so they could bring in Conley.. doesn’t mean Ricky sucked, just that Conley was better. By your logic, Rubio sucked and should’ve never played because Utah let him walk?

There are always gunna be better players in the league, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t play the ones who aren’t as good or ignore all the other benefits of playing the bench regardless of what you think of their talent level… this is just nonsensical thinking…

[BKlutch]

bench was so good that they didn't keep any of them lol

THey kept Mitch, Deuce, Hart... but nobody even noticed we lost Shammit, Payneful, PJ Tuqqer, or ...

[Kampuchea]

my logic is that bench wasn't very good which is why none of them are here anymore and were replaced by other players

have any of them even been picked up by another team ? nope. not even precious. because they're fringe nba players. you'll take them as a last resort only.

could he have stole a few minutes with them....sure. but they suck. let's not get it twisted.

Except whenever anyone got extended bench minutes they usually played well. Oops.

The narrative that players who were on the bench in the finals two years ago suddenly suck is gibberish at best. Precious helped us make the semifinals last year. He was great for us when needed.

Thibs was the problem. Not the players.

then why didn't the front office bring any of them back ?

Because the bench players were the real issue, not Thibs.

Let’s see how we do with a slight upgrade in bench but downgrade in coach.

[Jalen Bluntson]

my logic is that bench wasn't very good which is why none of them are here anymore and were replaced by other players

have any of them even been picked up by another team ? nope. not even precious. because they're fringe nba players. you'll take them as a last resort only.

could he have stole a few minutes with them....sure. but they suck. let's not get it twisted.

Except whenever anyone got extended bench minutes they usually played well. Oops.

The narrative that players who were on the bench in the finals two years ago suddenly suck is gibberish at best. Precious helped us make the semifinals last year. He was great for us when needed.

Thibs was the problem. Not the players.

then why didn't the front office bring any of them back ?

Maybe Brown wanted different players? Might be leaning towards a little more youth development IN GAMES. We only have so much money to spend. Could be a number of reasons that doesn't end up because they suck.

Payne helped us win games. Shamet helped us win games. Precious helped us tremendously last season when needed. Shamet and Wright helped us win IN THE PLAYOFFS. That means more towards they didn't suck, the HC did. It cost him his job. He was fired for not using his bench enough. It was ridiculous the way he leaned on the starters. Especially in blowouts. If the FO fired him for it, then it says all you need to know. Thibs was a problem.

[BKlutch]

Except whenever anyone got extended bench minutes they usually played well. Oops.

The narrative that players who were on the bench in the finals two years ago suddenly suck is gibberish at best. Precious helped us make the semifinals last year. He was great for us when needed.

Thibs was the problem. Not the players.

then why didn't the front office bring any of them back ?

Maybe Brown wanted different players? Might be leaning towards a little more youth development IN GAMES. We only have so much money to spend. Could be a number of reasons that doesn't end up because they suck.

Payne helped us win games. Shamet helped us win games. Precious helped us tremendously last season when needed. Shamet and Wright helped us win IN THE PLAYOFFS. That means more towards they didn't suck, the HC did. It cost him his job. He was fired for not using his bench enough. It was ridiculous the way he leaned on the starters. Especially in blowouts. If the FO fired him for it, then it says all you need to know. Thibs was a problem.

Cam Payne had a net rating of -1.6 for the season. I saw every game, and it looked like he helped us lose more games than he helped us win. He would have on great game followed by 2-3 games with crazy bad, or just crazy, shooting. Not a coaching issue, he was just that way.

[Jalen Bluntson]

then why didn't the front office bring any of them back ?

Maybe Brown wanted different players? Might be leaning towards a little more youth development IN GAMES. We only have so much money to spend. Could be a number of reasons that doesn't end up because they suck.

Payne helped us win games. Shamet helped us win games. Precious helped us tremendously last season when needed. Shamet and Wright helped us win IN THE PLAYOFFS. That means more towards they didn't suck, the HC did. It cost him his job. He was fired for not using his bench enough. It was ridiculous the way he leaned on the starters. Especially in blowouts. If the FO fired him for it, then it says all you need to know. Thibs was a problem.

Cam Payne had a net rating of -1.6 for the season. I saw every game, and it looked like he helped us lose more games than he helped us win. He would have on great game followed by 2-3 games with crazy bad, or just crazy, shooting. Not a coaching issue, he was just that way.

Except that's not accurate. Cam/Shamet/Wright/Precious were pretty much glued to the bench after Mitch got back, There was ZERO consistency with Thibs rotations. Zero feel for the game when there was a hot hand and he would just bench them. I watched the games too. Especially the ones we were winning when Brunson went down and we actually tried to use the bench to end the season. They helped win those games didn't they? They didn't suck then.

They are bench players on one year deals. They get replaced quite often. It's not always condemnation on them as players.

Thibs got fired for not using them. That's a coaching issue. That means the FO agrees with many of us. I'll go with their evaluation of the problem. It literally cost him his job. Why does that not set in for some people?

If they feel Clarkson and Yabu are upgrades, that doesn't mean they think the other guys sucked. It's a ridiculous talking point.

[Iron Mantis]

Is this accurate? Reg season

[Deeeez Knicks]

Knicks bench was +0.9 during the regular season and even during the playoffs.

Probably somewhere near an avg bench, but Knicks bench played by far the least amount of minutes in the league among benches. Trusting the bench was def a flaw for Thibs

[Gravy]

Thibs still gets love from D Rose

Read on Twitter

[Iron Mantis]

Is this accurate? Reg season

There's 10 net positive players and Kolek is neutral with a crazy assist %.

Precious and Wright weren't net positive, but it's not so bad that they are unplayable.

Dadiet and the players below look a lil rough tho. But even then, they didn't play enough to really know.

If we go by Net rating, Thibs wasn't justified in overplaying the starters and refusing to use the bench.

[BKlutch]

Maybe Brown wanted different players? Might be leaning towards a little more youth development IN GAMES. We only have so much money to spend. Could be a number of reasons that doesn't end up because they suck.

Payne helped us win games. Shamet helped us win games. Precious helped us tremendously last season when needed. Shamet and Wright helped us win IN THE PLAYOFFS. That means more towards they didn't suck, the HC did. It cost him his job. He was fired for not using his bench enough. It was ridiculous the way he leaned on the starters. Especially in blowouts. If the FO fired him for it, then it says all you need to know. Thibs was a problem.

Cam Payne had a net rating of -1.6 for the season. I saw every game, and it looked like he helped us lose more games than he helped us win. He would have on great game followed by 2-3 games with crazy bad, or just crazy, shooting. Not a coaching issue, he was just that way.

Except that's not accurate. Cam/Shamet/Wright/Precious were pretty much glued to the bench after Mitch got back, There was ZERO consistency with Thibs rotations. Zero feel for the game when there was a hot hand and he would just bench them. I watched the games too. Especially the ones we were winning when Brunson went down and we actually tried to use the bench to end the season. They helped win those games didn't they? They didn't suck then.

They are bench players on one year deals. They get replaced quite often. It's not always condemnation on them as players.

Thibs got fired for not using them. That's a coaching issue. That means the FO agrees with many of us. I'll go with their evaluation of the problem. It literally cost him his job. Why does that not set in for some people?

If they feel Clarkson and Yabu are upgrades, that doesn't mean they think the other guys sucked. It's a ridiculous talking point.

I agree Thibs didn't use his bench well during the regular season and the issue blew up during the playoffs. That said, Cam just wasn't that great. I liked what Shamet had to offer, he was a smart player and helped on D, but he was injured a lot during the season. Clearly we need to use the bench and integrate them into the team's play, and I hope this bench is good enough to be of help during the regular season and the playoffs.

[JayTWill]

then why didn't the front office bring any of them back ?

Maybe Brown wanted different players? Might be leaning towards a little more youth development IN GAMES. We only have so much money to spend. Could be a number of reasons that doesn't end up because they suck.

Payne helped us win games. Shamet helped us win games. Precious helped us tremendously last season when needed. Shamet and Wright helped us win IN THE PLAYOFFS. That means more towards they didn't suck, the HC did. It cost him his job. He was fired for not using his bench enough. It was ridiculous the way he leaned on the starters. Especially in blowouts. If the FO fired him for it, then it says all you need to know. Thibs was a problem.

Cam Payne had a net rating of -1.6 for the season. I saw every game, and it looked like he helped us lose more games than he helped us win. He would have on great game followed by 2-3 games with crazy bad, or just crazy, shooting. Not a coaching issue, he was just that way.

Where are you getting that -1.6 net rating from? I thought he had the highest net rating on the team last year.

[BKlutch]

Maybe Brown wanted different players? Might be leaning towards a little more youth development IN GAMES. We only have so much money to spend. Could be a number of reasons that doesn't end up because they suck.

Payne helped us win games. Shamet helped us win games. Precious helped us tremendously last season when needed. Shamet and Wright helped us win IN THE PLAYOFFS. That means more towards they didn't suck, the HC did. It cost him his job. He was fired for not using his bench enough. It was ridiculous the way he leaned on the starters. Especially in blowouts. If the FO fired him for it, then it says all you need to know. Thibs was a problem.

Cam Payne had a net rating of -1.6 for the season. I saw every game, and it looked like he helped us lose more games than he helped us win. He would have on great game followed by 2-3 games with crazy bad, or just crazy, shooting. Not a coaching issue, he was just that way.

Where are you getting that -1.6 net rating from? I thought he had the highest net rating on the team last year.

I'm pretty sure JB or KAT had high ratings for the year.

Cam's rating was was hard to find, because this past season wasn't listed on ESPN. Net ratings for earlier years were all negative. I was able to find this rating on https://www.foxsports.com/nba/cameron-payne-player-stats?category=advanced&seasonType=reg, but it loads slowly and you need to scroll down to the last line.

[JayTWill]

Cam Payne had a net rating of -1.6 for the season. I saw every game, and it looked like he helped us lose more games than he helped us win. He would have on great game followed by 2-3 games with crazy bad, or just crazy, shooting. Not a coaching issue, he was just that way.

Where are you getting that -1.6 net rating from? I thought he had the highest net rating on the team last year.

I'm pretty sure JB or KAT had high ratings for the year.

Cam's rating was was hard to find, because this past season wasn't listed on ESPN. Net ratings for earlier years were all negative. I was able to find this rating on https://www.foxsports.com/nba/cameron-payne-player-stats?category=advanced&seasonType=reg, but it loads slowly and you need to scroll down to the last line.

NBA.com numbers for the entire team

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612752&dir=A&sort=NET_RATING

[Jalen Bluntson]

Cam Payne had a net rating of -1.6 for the season. I saw every game, and it looked like he helped us lose more games than he helped us win. He would have on great game followed by 2-3 games with crazy bad, or just crazy, shooting. Not a coaching issue, he was just that way.

Except that's not accurate. Cam/Shamet/Wright/Precious were pretty much glued to the bench after Mitch got back, There was ZERO consistency with Thibs rotations. Zero feel for the game when there was a hot hand and he would just bench them. I watched the games too. Especially the ones we were winning when Brunson went down and we actually tried to use the bench to end the season. They helped win those games didn't they? They didn't suck then.

They are bench players on one year deals. They get replaced quite often. It's not always condemnation on them as players.

Thibs got fired for not using them. That's a coaching issue. That means the FO agrees with many of us. I'll go with their evaluation of the problem. It literally cost him his job. Why does that not set in for some people?

If they feel Clarkson and Yabu are upgrades, that doesn't mean they think the other guys sucked. It's a ridiculous talking point.

I agree Thibs didn't use his bench well during the regular season and the issue blew up during the playoffs. That said, Cam just wasn't that great. I liked what Shamet had to offer, he was a smart player and helped on D, but he was injured a lot during the season. Clearly we need to use the bench and integrate them into the team's play, and I hope this bench is good enough to be of help during the regular season and the playoffs.

That's the point though. No one has ever said we had a great bench. We did in fact have a bench that could have and should have played more. The beginning of the season were injuries and we gave him a pass but, he still shortened. rotations instead of really looking to test his bench on any meaningful level. Once they were all healthy he still didn't utilize his bench with any logic or consistency. It was a heavy dose of Deuce/Mitch and 5-10 minutes sporadically for everyone else. Then Brunson got hurt. Etc etc. Then the playoffs.

It was wild watching Thibs not use his bench and then when the heat rise he would run hockey subs and play them all at once. WTF?

Hoping we do a better job with the roster this season. Hoping we do a better job giving the kids meaningful in game opportunities to build on and possibly turn that into a rotation spot. Hoping we recognize what works and what doesn't and change it up. Hoping we stay healthy.

Kolek hardly played here or in Westchester. What was that all about? He was healthy all year.

Ah. Whatever. We basically agree and we are on to the next HC with couple of new bench guys. Hoping we get the Showalter/Torre results!

[Deeeez Knicks]

More then just the bench, the original starters just never really sync'd and played well together. It looked smoother when 1 or 2 guys were subbed out. Yet that starting lineup was by far our most played lineup. It's more about mixing up different lineups and going with units or players that are playing well together in a particular game, and sitting starters more when they are struggling

But Thibs was just way too stubborn sticking with his same rotations no matter what. On one end it does help win regular season games. On the other end it kills us in playoff series. Just too slow to adjust and when we do adust, it's things we have never tried during the regular season and often too little too late. It's hurt us multiple times

On the other end Carlise thru waves of players and lineups. On any given game he could have a different 5 closing out. Not afraid to adjust and stick with what's working.

So more then just the 5 guys on the bench, its more about adjusting with different lineups and going with what's working over playing all starters 40min every game no matter what

Thibs did do a great job overall, but think we did need to move on

[Jalen Bluntson]

More then just the bench, the original starters just never really sync'd and played well together. It looked smoother when 1 or 2 guys were subbed out. Yet that starting lineup was by far our most played lineup. It's more about mixing up different lineups and going with units or players that are playing well together in a particular game, and sitting starters more when they are struggling

But Thibs was just way too stubborn sticking with his same rotations no matter what. On one end it does help win regular season games. On the other end it kills us in playoff series. Just too slow to adjust and when we do adust, it's things we have never tried during the regular season and often too little too late. It's hurt us multiple times

On the other end Carlise thru waves of players and lineups. On any given game he could have a different 5 closing out. Not afraid to adjust and stick with what's working.

So more then just the 5 guys on the bench, its more about adjusting with different lineups and going with what's working over playing all starters 40min every game no matter what

Thibs did do a great job overall, but think we did need to move on

This. /Thread!

[Jalen Bluntson]

PS...the starters were awesome together but, once the rest of the league started guarding Hart with a C it was wrap. Thibs never adjusted.